Nothing is sacred.

Thankfully the astronomers building and working at this observatory take its impact on the environment at the summit very, very seriously. This, in spite of the fact that next to nothing lives there. Science tends to err on the side of caution. But it also tends to not take claims about what people think volcano gods believe seriously. That is as it should be, culture or no culture.

Last edited Thu Oct 22, 2015, 04:00 AM - Edit history (2)

Who the fuck says? The lunatics protesting the TMT project? And how do they know that?

The Mauna Kea summit is at such a high altitude that not even the astronomers go there. The telescopes are controlled from some 5,000 feet below on Mauna Kea at the control center, or even from fucking California. People working at the observatory have to acclimate themselves to the over 14,000 foot altitude. Of course, oxygen is available for those who haven't acclimated. That means that very few volcano worshippers are going up there. Not if they want to not pass out. Of course, they could always ask the observatory workers if they can borrow some oxygen.

That is why the observatory is there! There is no other place in the northern hemisphere to build it. And there were no protests in the 1960's when they first set aside the grounds for the observatory.

Plus, the observatory is both invisible from below, plus is an environmental refuge. The latter in spite of the fact that next to nothing grows or lives at that altitude. The astronomers take such stuff very, very seriously.

I just cannot take the protesters very seriously. They are anti-science lunatics.

I think the volcano gods are happy about the observatory and support the building of the Thirty Meter Telescope. Build it!

on edit: visitor center is 5,000 feet below summit, not 8,000 feet. Corrected.

What you said!

Or those that were there first by 100's of years.

Some days I realize the world would be better if the Europeans had a 'Prime Directive' of non-interference and stayed out of the America's. Anti-science to respect the beliefs of their ancestors...

The observatory is an ecological safe ground, something the astronomers take very seriously.

If there is no damage what are the few people complaining about? They don't want the scopes there at all. That's what.

Sorry! That is not an option. The observatory grounds were set aside decades ago. It is a unique place in the northern hemisphere, uniquely suitable for visual astronomy. There is no other place like it, anywhere in the northern hemisphere. The native Hawaiians just have to learn to share that part of the summit. I would think that they would be proud of such a contribution to human learning.

And again, who says the volcano gods do not want the scopes there? And how does anybody even know that? The response that it is sacred ground is not a rational or sufficient answer.

This is yet another example of religion infringing on science, something it tends to do.

It doesn't sound like it to me. You seem to know what s/he is thinking because you want to use the land. Just like the white guys that invaded America.

Last edited Thu Oct 22, 2015, 05:52 AM - Edit history (1)

So you would be correct. The extent to which people claim that their gods want humans to be ignorant of the universe is the extent to which I do not respect those people, let alone their claims of sacred grounds. Note: that the observatory grounds are not the entire Maunakea summit and were set aside decades ago as both an observatory site and an environmental preserve.

There is plenty more Maunakea summit for the volcano gods. And as I posted in other responses to this issue, nobody goes up there because the altitude is too high. It is not like there are churches there. NOTHING IS THERE. That's why part of the summit was set aside for astronomy.

And nobody goes up there! Except those who maintain the observatory. See my post below about traveling to the summit. One goes at ones own risk, and expense.

It really is that simple. The protesters have no claim whatsoever.

Seems to me we can find accommodation for both sets of needs.

It's amazing to me that people want to kill scientific progress out of respect for imaginary deities.

I understand the desire to preserve native culture and tradition. I do not understand the drive to have such preservation completely trump this project.

There is room for both.

Oh well there goes our chance of becoming a class 2 carbon based life form .

YUP nothing is sacred especially logic .

Last edited Thu Oct 22, 2015, 06:04 AM - Edit history (1)

Here, from the visitor center Web site:

Please check Summit Road Conditions before you come!

If you are planning to visit the summit, we highly recommend that you stop at the Visitor Information Station (VIS) at 9,200 ft to receive a current weather update, safety information, and to adjust to the change in altitude. Maunakea is one of the only places in the world where you can drive from sea level to 14,000 feet in about 2 hours, so altitude sickness is a high possibility. At 14,000 feet, there is 40% less oxygen than at sea level, so visitors should acclimatize to the altitude before proceeding further up the mountain. Anyone in poor health should consult their physician before planning a visit to Maunakea. We do not recommend anyone who is pregnant to go further than the VIS. People under the age of 16 should not go any further because their bodies are still developing and they are affected more rapidly when going to a high altitude. If you plan to scuba dive, do not plan to go up to the summit within 24 hours after your dive. Furthermore, we do not recommend anyone with a heart or respiratory problem to travel above the VIS. View Maunakea Hazards and the Visiting Maunakea Video

We also highly recommend that only TRUE 4-wheel drive vehicles with LOW range travel beyond the VIS. About 200 yards beyond the station, the pavement ends and the next 4 and a half miles are a steep graded-gravel road. You should consult with your rental vehicle company or contract for a Maunakea Specific clause. Many rental companies do not allow their vehicles to continue on to the summit even if they are 4-wheel drive, and if anything were to happen to your vehicle you would potentiially be responsible for all towing charges and repairs.

If your vehicle becomes disabled, immediately inform the Maunakea Rangers at (808) 961 2180. You will be required to make arrangements for immediate removal or repair. If the vehicle is a hazard to drivers and repair or towing arrangements are not immediately arranged, it will be towed at your (or the rental company's) expense. Keep the Maunakea Rangers informed.

The visiting hours to the summit area recommended by the Mauna Kea Rangers are from 1/2 hour before sunrise until 1/2 hour after sunset. For your safety we ask that visitors leave the summit once it becomes dark.

For groups of 10 or more, a Special Use permit is required. For more information, see our Research, Group Visits and Military page.
If you are visiting the summit area, please leave the landscape as you find it. Do not disturb the terrain or build rock piles. Please stay on designated roadways and trails. Off-road driving is prohibited. Maunakea is a sensitive environment, so please treat it as such. Do not litter.
Note: The observatories are private research facilities and generally not open to the public. Stargazing is best done at the VIS, where we are equipped for visitors, have telescopes you can look through, and temperatures are much warmer than the summit.

So much for volcano god worshippers. If they go up there without due caution a good proportion of them will likely die. That is unless they find a kind observatory worker to provide some bottled oxygen.

There is no Disneyland at the Maunakea summit. The observatory grounds are a limited part of the summit. It is kind of a church in a way -- a church that worships the truths of the universe. Apparently volcano gods don't like that. Fuck them.

Last edited Thu Oct 22, 2015, 12:16 PM - Edit history (1)

so people can acclimatize gradually. Didn't see anyone on it when I was there: spent a few hours at the visitors' center - which is actually more interesting - before going up to the summit (with several stops to admire the scenery along the way). There's not much at the summit besides the telescopes, which sort of just sit there not doing much. It's also rather cold and windy.

nt

Sad.