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Jesus Malverde

(10,274 posts)
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 07:24 AM Oct 2015

Putin, Citing Key Moment, Prods West to Cooperate on Syria

Source: NY Times

President Vladimir V. Putin on Thursday made his strongest pitch yet for cooperation between Washington and Moscow in Syria and beyond, calling it a crucial moment in East-West relations not unlike the end of the Cold War.

Speaking before a gathering of global experts on Russia, Mr. Putin also released a few details from his surprise meeting here with the Syrian president, Bashar al-Assad, on Tuesday, saying Mr. Assad said Damascus was willing to make common cause with the armed opponents as long as they were willing to fight the Islamic State.

Mr. Putin shared the stage in the southern resort town of Sochi with Ali Larijani, the speaker of the Parliament in Iran, which is allied with Russia in fighting in Syria. Both men rejected proposals for Syria’s partition, calling those a formula for endless warfare and dangerous gains by the militants.

The Russian leader seemed at times to be doubling down on his charm offensive toward Washington and the West, a critical part of his strategy of intervening in Syria in the first place, analysts have said. By changing the subject from the Ukraine crisis and playing peacemaker in Syria, many say, he aims to break out of the Western sanctions imposed over Ukraine at a time when low oil prices have walloped the Russian economy.


Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/23/world/europe/putin-citing-key-moment-prods-west-to-cooperate-on-syria.html?_r=0

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Putin, Citing Key Moment, Prods West to Cooperate on Syria (Original Post) Jesus Malverde Oct 2015 OP
Give peace a chance uawchild Oct 2015 #1
ras-Putin is just hoping to force the U.S. into an agreement to accept Assad's government. Nitram Oct 2015 #2
Well, our policy of "Assad must go" isn't working, is it? Comrade Grumpy Oct 2015 #3
The U.S. stance is that Assad's replacement and any new government... Nitram Oct 2015 #4
Do tell me why you think the US gets to determine who runs Syria? Comrade Grumpy Oct 2015 #5
As opposed to Putin's plan to partition Syria between ISIS and Assad. geek tragedy Oct 2015 #7
Please show me this plan. Comrade Grumpy Oct 2015 #10
with whom will Assad negotiate, his wife? geek tragedy Oct 2015 #18
Do tell me why Putin gets to determine who runs Syria? Nitram Oct 2015 #20
The US is attempting to overthrow the internationally recognized government of Syria. Comrade Grumpy Oct 2015 #21
It was the people of Syria who couldn't take the Assad police state any longer. Nitram Oct 2015 #27
I have never understood this stupid BlueMTexpat Oct 2015 #9
Or more recently Libya...nt Jesus Malverde Oct 2015 #28
Assad's refusal to step down after massive civilian protests sparked the civil war. NuclearDem Oct 2015 #11
The main sponsors of the civil war are Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and the UAE. Comrade Grumpy Oct 2015 #15
those Sunni powers are going to get a Sunni caliphate along the border area geek tragedy Oct 2015 #19
That's not for me to decide. NuclearDem Oct 2015 #24
What negotiated solution? Putin and Assad are wiping out everyone geek tragedy Oct 2015 #12
Who, precisely, are you talking about? Al Nusra? The Army of Conquest? The FSA... Comrade Grumpy Oct 2015 #14
So, Assad will just negotiate with himself then? geek tragedy Oct 2015 #16
If Syria is to remain in one piece (a big if), deals will have to be made. Comrade Grumpy Oct 2015 #22
It will take an army a lot bigger than Assad's to keep Syria in one piece geek tragedy Oct 2015 #25
I guess it is then up to Moscow to determine Syria's borders, future and type of government LanternWaste Oct 2015 #26
I thought we were working fine together when Medvedev was president. hollowdweller Oct 2015 #6
Funny that Putin isn't willing to fight ISIS, so I guess he's not part of the coalition nt geek tragedy Oct 2015 #8
What are you going on about? Comrade Grumpy Oct 2015 #13
a few token strikes, vast majority are falling on ISIS's enemies. geek tragedy Oct 2015 #17
Well, ISIS seems to think the Russians are attacking them. Comrade Grumpy Oct 2015 #23
The condom bombs Jesus Malverde Oct 2015 #29

uawchild

(2,208 posts)
1. Give peace a chance
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 08:02 AM
Oct 2015

You don't make peace with your friends, you make peace with your enemies.

It's past time for compromise and serious peace talks to stop the carnage in Syria.

Nitram

(22,671 posts)
2. ras-Putin is just hoping to force the U.S. into an agreement to accept Assad's government.
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 09:17 AM
Oct 2015

Good luck with that, Pootie!

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
3. Well, our policy of "Assad must go" isn't working, is it?
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 12:12 PM
Oct 2015

We've invested a billion dollars or so in getting more Syrians killed, but Assad remains. Syria's long-time ally, Russia, has now made it clear that it is not going to let the state collapse.

If the US cares about actual Syrians more than it does political gamesmanship, it will embrace a negotiated solution.

Finally, just curious: If Assad must go, who or what replaces him? Anybody? I have yet to see an answer to this.

Nitram

(22,671 posts)
4. The U.S. stance is that Assad's replacement and any new government...
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 12:51 PM
Oct 2015

...must be decided through peaceful negotiation, not violent civil war. As long a Assad clings to power, that will never happen.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
5. Do tell me why you think the US gets to determine who runs Syria?
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 01:24 PM
Oct 2015

Has Congress declared war?

Is there a UN resolution?

The US stance has been to further bleed Syria by supporting insurgents. The policy is a disastrous failure.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
7. As opposed to Putin's plan to partition Syria between ISIS and Assad.
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 02:02 PM
Oct 2015

That way, both sets of monsters win.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
10. Please show me this plan.
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 02:21 PM
Oct 2015

I see a plan to strengthen the regime militarily before seeking a negotiated settlement.

It makes perfect, cynical sense for the Russians and the regime to try to quash the non-ISIS rebels first. 'Cuz everybody hates ISIS. Also, the non-ISIS rebels are more threatening to the regime's core areas.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
18. with whom will Assad negotiate, his wife?
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 02:46 PM
Oct 2015

Putin's butler?

There will be no negotiations, because there's no one who has anything that Assad wants that will be at the negotiating table.

ISIS will keep the area on both sides of the border with Iraq, because Assad is going to hole up in his rump kingdom.

Nitram

(22,671 posts)
20. Do tell me why Putin gets to determine who runs Syria?
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 03:04 PM
Oct 2015

The U.S. is working with a coalition of Middle-Eastern countries who are trying to beat back ISIS in Iraq and Syria before they spread further. Or maybe you knew that?

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
21. The US is attempting to overthrow the internationally recognized government of Syria.
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 03:19 PM
Oct 2015

The Russians, as long-time allies of that government, are there at its request.

The US has a schizophrenic and disjointed policy in the Middle East. Our policy toward Syria has only strengthened ISIS by weakening the Syrian state and giving the jihadis breathing room. And, of course, most of our Middle Eastern "allies" in the coalition are the ones exporting jihadi ideology and providing weapons for the Syrian insurgents.

Kerry says it may be time to see about negotiations again. Sounds good to me.

Nitram

(22,671 posts)
27. It was the people of Syria who couldn't take the Assad police state any longer.
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 06:57 PM
Oct 2015

They got tired of being jailed and tortured. The U.S. has shown great restraint in the face of atrocities committed by the Assad regime on a daily basis. Barrel bombs. I'm sure you would prefer that Russia and Iran succeeded in shoring up their only ally in the region, no matter what a brute he is. Assad has been happy to let ISIS help him fight his own people.

BlueMTexpat

(15,349 posts)
9. I have never understood this stupid
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 02:12 PM
Oct 2015

policy for the very reason that you state. The idea that warring factions will suddenly become friends if a tyrannical leader (in this case, Assad) steps down is sheer fantasy. Did we learn nothing from Iraq or Afghanistan?

And why is it the US's call anyway?

Any negotiated solution should include ALL options, not preconditions.

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
11. Assad's refusal to step down after massive civilian protests sparked the civil war.
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 02:22 PM
Oct 2015

Libya and Syria devolved into armed conflict not because of the evil meany pants United States, but because the strongman tried to cling to power by killing the people who wanted to see him gone.

The only solution that even remotely guarantees a stable Syria is one without Assad. His family created the conditions for war to erupt, and the longer he stays, the worse it gets.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
15. The main sponsors of the civil war are Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and the UAE.
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 02:36 PM
Oct 2015

This could have gone like Iran in 2009, ugly and repressive, but not catastrophic. The intervention of those Sunni Arab powers made this possible.

Tell me more about your fantasy of a stable Syria if Assad is pushed out. Who will be in charge?

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
19. those Sunni powers are going to get a Sunni caliphate along the border area
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 02:50 PM
Oct 2015

between Iraq and Syria. This is the deal Putin is cutting with them--Putin gets a rump Allawite area surrounding his port, and the Sunni powers get the east.

The US shouldn't participate in this sham of a 'negotiation'--let Putin own the preservation of Assad and the creation of the ISIS caliphate. And let him and the Russian people enjoy the blowback.

US should simply arm the Kurds to the teeth and bomb and make sure they can crush any attacks from ISIS.

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
24. That's not for me to decide.
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 03:45 PM
Oct 2015

The people who wanted him gone--the people he started killing--should've been the ones making that decision, like in Tunisia.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
14. Who, precisely, are you talking about? Al Nusra? The Army of Conquest? The FSA...
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 02:31 PM
Oct 2015

...and its allied jihadi groups?

Who do these guys represent? Their arrival pretty much rendered the civilian opposition irrelevant.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
16. So, Assad will just negotiate with himself then?
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 02:38 PM
Oct 2015

Or will it be one of those elections where he wins 99.7% of the vote?

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
22. If Syria is to remain in one piece (a big if), deals will have to be made.
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 03:21 PM
Oct 2015

I think I heard some Russian talking about a loose federal system.

You know, I bet most Syrians just want the fucking war to stop.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
25. It will take an army a lot bigger than Assad's to keep Syria in one piece
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 03:49 PM
Oct 2015

And I'm gonna guess that no one's going to volunteer to send troops into the Levant.

So, Syria will be partitioned de facto even if Assad claims he's the sovereign of the whole country. He can even offer the governorship of the east to his chauffeur.

But its days as a single nation, in reality, are over.

That's not a policy outcome we ought to put our fingerprints on.

Protecting the Kurds is really the only play we have left.




 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
26. I guess it is then up to Moscow to determine Syria's borders, future and type of government
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 04:11 PM
Oct 2015

I guess it is then up to Moscow to determine Syria's borders, future and type of government, regardless of the irrelevancy of who wants wars to end.

 

hollowdweller

(4,229 posts)
6. I thought we were working fine together when Medvedev was president.
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 01:53 PM
Oct 2015


I'm glad Putin is taking this track now, and I sort of agree with him that you are going to need Assad to fight the terrorists.

However I place the fucked up relations with Russia partly the fault of Bush and the hawks for pursuing a too imperialistic foreigh policy and the rest on Putin for squandering the repair that Obama and Medvedev worked on.
 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
13. What are you going on about?
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 02:28 PM
Oct 2015

"Putin's Mission to Destroy ISIS in Rages On: Russia Destroys 70 Targets in Just 24 Hours"

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/614023/Russia-airstrikes-Syria-Islamic-State-Vladimir-Putin

"ISIS Oil Field Ruined, Its Syria Bastion Bombed

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2015/10/22/Russia-says-hits-ISIS-supply-route-from-Iraq-to-Syria-13.html

ISIS militants on Thursday received heavy air strikes from the U.S.-led coalition and Russia in the same day, leaving their oil facility in eastern Syria destroyed and their bastion in the city of Raqqa bombarded by warplanes.

------

There's plenty more where these came from.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
17. a few token strikes, vast majority are falling on ISIS's enemies.
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 02:41 PM
Oct 2015

And in these stories there's only confirmation of US strikes. Claims by Russia that it's hitting ISIS.

And I wouldn't place much faith in Russian press releases re: targets being hit.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
23. Well, ISIS seems to think the Russians are attacking them.
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 03:29 PM
Oct 2015
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/moment-isis-militants-launch-condom-6683583

And they're fighting back with condom bombs!

I have no doubt the Russians are devoting more attention to the rebels in the west. That's where the regime is most threatened. Is it a cynical ploy? Sure. It's also pretty smart.

Jesus Malverde

(10,274 posts)
29. The condom bombs
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 07:51 PM
Oct 2015

Are from the moderates. Lord knows where those improvised munition landed. Those sending them off sure have no idea, they have snak bar power, while drinking take beers.

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