"attack civilians who do not support the illegitimate coup regime"

I.e., how was Victor Yankovych removed from office against his will via violent or forcible means? Who exactly carried it out?

that were getting increasingly violent and Yankovych decided he was better off running.

Unless you have some kind of proof that the west was paying huge mobs of people to risk sniper fire from Yanukovych's thugs.

And please don't insult everyone here by whining about cookies and donuts.

The west has poured billions of dollars into ukraine to "promote democracy". Anyone with any familiarity with Latin America knows what that means.

1) economic aid in the billions proves nothing;
2) you have not shown any link between western money and the people protesting Yanukovych.

Like other apologists for Putin, you view anyone in Ukraine who doesn't want to join Mother Russia as dumb, brainwashed, corrupted sheep who MUST be agents of the west.

Spare us.

It's pretty straight-forward that's what happened.

“What she hasn’t apologized for is the plans to midwife a new government in Ukraine. In other words, she is apologizing for cussing up the EU, but she is not apologizing for trying to overthrow the government in Kiev, calling it popular democracy,” Malic said. “I don’t think anybody in the US establishment is sorry for what they are trying to do. I think they are very proud of it and they are going to pursue it.”

http://rt.com/news/nuland-phone-chat-ukraine-927/

Wherein Nuland and Pratt discuss who they'd prefer to see in charge in Ukraine.

Here at Democratic Underground, many of us discuss who we'd prefer to see in charge in the US in 2016 (Clinton! Warren! Biden! etc.)

Go to the message boards for any NFL team in the spring and you'll see thousands of football fans discussing who they would like to see their team draft.

There was no evidence of a coup in that phone call. There's no concrete plans to for a scheme to have someone go in and forcibly remove Yanukovych for power. All you have is two officials discussing who'd they prefer to see leading the country.

No one has shown how this actual supposed "coup" took place.

First of all, evidence that crowds of several hundred thousand protesters were funded by the "west"--where is it? (I believe others are calling you to account on that as well.)

Also, if Yanukovych was running for his life as you claim, why did he take three days to pack up his most valuable possessions (including a vast collection of oil paintings) before flying away in his own fleet of helicopters?

Normally, here's where I provide the definition of the term coup d'état. But I think instead I'll ask you: Do you know what the definition of a coup d'état is?

and by impressive I mean...

one reads/hears from Russian state media.

The Twitter wars over this would be hilarious, if not for the subject matter.

you only believe what you read from western propaganda

there was no coup in Ukraine, that is Russian propaganda. A corrupt thug of a president fled the country when his gunning down of protestors backfired and he lost all legitimacy. He fled with his personal wealth to Russia rather than face civil prosecution and forfeiture of all the money he stole, and then the country's elected parliament removed him from office, since you know he wasn't really capable of ruling the country from Russia and having abdicated his office and being a fugitive from the law.

No one but bald-faced Putin apologists deny that armed Russian nationals are flowing across the border into Ukraine to participate in the conflict there.

Was the president any more corrupt than the ones before?

It was a western funded coup. It's as simple as that.

The west offered Ukraine a shit deal to be closer to the EU. Putin offered Ukraine a great deal.

Ukraine took the great deal, and Nato funded a coup against him.

It amazes me how DU normally understands how the US operates, but somehow doesn't here.

a shred of evidence to support them.

You're just regurgitating the nonsense that one receives from Russia Today.

"Ukraine" did not take Putin's deal. Yanukovych did. That's what sparked the protests.

Feel free to provide something approaching actual, credible evidence that the west/NATO funded the protestors against Yanukovych.

We know that's the claim you want to peddle. But you have no facts to back it up.

We are not knee-jerk anti-Americans who side with anyone who opposes it.

from every American-based, corporate-owned media institution in existence.

It's funny how the self-righteous defenders of coups seem to believe propaganda only goes in one direction lol.

The US government hasn't hidden the fact that they've poured some $5 billion dollars to help promote democracy in Ukraine over the years (and you should be smart enough to know what "promoting democracy" really means). That's proof enough right there.

Fact: Yanukovych was the duly elected president, one year from a new election. Fact: Russia offered Ukraine a better trade deal. Fact: After that the west supported a coup against him.

actually is.

Whether or not Russia offered Ukraine a better trade deal is not a 'fact' it is something called an 'opinion'

"the west supported a coup against him" is not a fact, it is not even an opinion, it is an unsubstantiated allegation.

What's not clear, though, is how much of this is controlled by the Kremlin.

There are lots of ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine. And they have cousins and friends and old army buddies on the other side of the border. I suspect they think they're on a glorious crusade to gain respect for Mother Russia and fight Banderite fascists.

And that border is in some sense artificial. This was all the Soviet Union until not so long ago.

I don't know how you put Donbass back in Ukraine. Too much blood is being spilled.

Donbass can be in the Ukraine the same way Virginia stayed part of the US.

Eventually, the insurgents will get worn down and divided once they realize Putin won't be riding to their rescue. With the borders being closed down, they're surrounded and outnumbered.

under the Ukrainian government, which remains the only possible legitimate governing authority.

Invite observers, make sure the election is free of corruption and intimidation, allow for the open expression of preferences, and let the people vote.

The thugs in Donbass used violence to disrupt the polling in Ukraine's presidential election, so good luck getting a vote to happen there.

After it was defeated in the Civil War? Perhaps. But Virginia didn't have a friendly power on its border.

dive in.

It has not been established that a majority of East Ukrainians want to secede from Ukraine, let alone join Russia. The only ones we know want that are the armed thugs.

have corrupt and brutal Governments...

The US even was friends with Saddam Hussein ....

same meme, i.e. propaganda with most all Ukraine/Russia OP's.

They are harmless and ineffective and most just ignore 'them'.

Just saying and thanks for posting.

:hi"

It's hard to see how you ever put Donbass back in Ukraine again after the killing back and forth.

Civilians got killed in Luhansk yesterday, apparently by a missile fired from a Ukraine air force jet. Although, like everything in this conflict, the propaganda is flying about that.

On edit: As seen in the post above.

I suppose the same could have been said of Chechnya after all the killing that kept it part of the Russian Federation, but it is still a part of Russia (and even supplying fighters to the separatists).

Also, what if only a violent minority of Donbass want to secede from Ukraine? (I recall that polls showed that a majority of folks in eastern Ukraine wanted to keep the country together.) How do we determine what the majority there want? Does every province in every country get to vote on independence or joining a neighboring country or is this a special "Russia rule"?

Yeah, Chechnya. Still in Russia. Still, 20 years later, in the midst of insurgency and counter-insurgency. Russia has managed to keep hold of it, but only through a nasty and brutish campaign. Can the Ukrainian Army do the same thing?

Does every province in every country get to vote on independence? Well, we're generally for the sanctity of existing borders, except when we're not. Ask the Serbs about that, and say hello to Kosovo for me.

are apparently in favor of countries using their military against civilians as long as the US government says it's OK.

It's OK for Bahrain to do it too since Obama hasn't let y'all know it's wrong yet.

Russia is trying not to get dragged into an outright military conflict, but the coup-imposed leaders in Kiev are following the council of their masters in Washington to ramp up the violence and "liquidate" those "terrorists" in the east of the country.

The people defending the aggression from Kiev sound like the many who cheered the criminal Bush regime on when it declared war against "terrorists".

with RT.

The US has supported Bahrain's military crackdown on its own people. That isn't new news at all.

Usually when armed people violently attack government security forces and buildings, threaten the life of the elected leader and chase him out of town, it's called a coup. Maybe I don't really know what a coup looks like though.

The acting president of Ukraine has been referring to eastern Ukrainians as "terrorists", not me.

If these things are false, then maybe I do need to step outdoors and take a deep breath...

"Chased him out of town in his private fleet of helicopters with his truckloads of possessions and large oil painting collection"

was someone to admire.

However, you insist there was a "coup" where he was forcibly removed from power against his own will. But the evidence just shows that not to be the case.

Unless you have some evidence to prove me wrong. But so far, you haven't shown me anything.

...Yanukovich himself stated that there were death threats made against him and his family so he decided it was best to flee.

They didn't literally chase him out of town, but that's pretty darn close to it.

...the leader takes a good three days to casually pack up his most valuable possessions before jetting away in his own fleet of helicopters?

I think you're right.

You don't know what a coup looks like.

until elections in December. He had full control of the military and security forces. He could have stayed at least until the elections - and longer than that if he had won the election. He decided to take his money and run.

.....leading us to wonder whether he even was going to stay until elections in the first place.

The agreement was signed on February 21st. He started packing up February 19th.

The US supports the Egyptian Military campaign of extermination of its citizens ...US don't care if our puppets kill their citizens ....US outrage is Strategic always

"All the super-patriotic, American-can-do-no-wrong people..."

No more and no less than the New Russia "Moscow Can Do No Wrong" crowd. Six of one, half a dozen of the other (insert distinction without a difference here to maintain fictional appearance of credibility)...

Although I do understand the temptation to call anything or anyone that may disagree with your potions "propaganda".

Russia's exercises were 75 miles away from "the border". Does that mean Ukraine is building defenses 75 miles from it's own side of "the border" ?

is asking Congress for a billion dollars in Military spending in Europe...During a joint press conference with Polish President Bronisław Komorowski, Obama announced a $1 billion initiative to bolster U.S. troops in central and eastern Europe .....the US Empire strikes in Europe....gee and he is doing this so soon after his pretty speech at West Point...

SLAVYANSK, Ukraine — Ukrainian troops on Tuesday launched an offensive against pro-Russian insurgents in the eastern city of Slavyansk and advanced through the city’s outskirts, the nation’s interior minister said.

Arsen Avakov said that government troops broke through rebel positions around the village of Semenovka on the eastern fringe of Slavyansk. “An active offensive stage of the counterterrorist operation is underway in Slavyansk,” he wrote on his Facebook page.

Local residents said that several Ukrainian combat jets and helicopter gunships attacked rebel positions on the eastern outskirts of Slavyansk, and heavy artillery barrages have continued throughout the day.

An AP journalist heard sustained gun and artillery fire and saw plumes of black smoke rising over the city. Ukrainian combat jets could be seen flying over the city.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/06/03/ukraine-launches-major-offensive-against-rebels-in-eastern-city-of-slovyansk/

Two Ukrainian troops killed in battles with insurgents on June 3; OSCE says Luhansk blast on June 2 likely caused by airstrike (UPDATES, VIDEO) http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/heavy-fighting-in-eastern-ukraine-as-government-restarts-active-phase-of-anti-terror-operation-350453.html

(Reuters) - Stepping over shrapnel strewn across a leafy park in the eastern Ukrainian city of Luhansk, pro-Russian rebel leader Vasily Nikitin gives his version of what happened in the few seconds of violence that killed eight people in broad daylight.

He says the sharp, twisted pieces of metal he and others collected from the grass, off the street, from behind the tires of a blood-smeared white Nissan Maxima is proof the Ukrainian army shot unguided S-8KO cluster bombs into the park and a nearby rebel headquarters, causing an explosion.

In the worst violence yet in Ukraine's eastern Luhansk province, which included a shootout between rebels and border guards, Kiev said rebels caused the blast when they launched a heat-seeking rocket at a Ukrainian plane that instead zeroed in on the occupied regional administration building.

In the remoter parts of eastern Ukraine and under the fog of war, truth often takes collateral damage.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/06/03/uk-ukraine-crisis-luhansk-violence-idUKKBN0EE25420140603

Kiev said earlier today : Ukraine military denies claims it delivered air strike on Luhansk administration building http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/ukraine-military-denies-claims-it-delivered-air-strike-on-luhansk-administration-building-350487.html

Whereas : OSCE says Luhansk blast on June 2 likely caused by airstrike http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/heavy-fighting-in-eastern-ukraine-as-government-restarts-active-phase-of-anti-terror-operation-350453.html

While a majority of the troops Russia had close to the Ukrainian border - previously estimated by NATO at 40,000 - had withdrawn or were in the process of withdrawing, some appeared intent on staying, U.S. Air Force General Philip Breedlove, NATO's supreme allied commander Europe, said.

"There are several large formations that are remaining and they have not reduced their presence in any way. Some portion of the force looks like it intends to remain," he said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/04/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSKBN0EF0TO20140604