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onehandle

(51,122 posts)
Tue Jun 3, 2014, 07:59 PM Jun 2014

House Votes to Name Official Pennsylvania ‘State Firearm’

Source: Philadelphia Magazine

The Pennsylvania House of Representatives overwhelmingly voted to name the long rifle the state firearm of Pennsylvania on Monday. That’s right: Soon you’ll be able to take a state gun (the long rifle) and shoot the state bird (the ruffed grouse) before celebrating with the state drink (milk).

The vote prompted an impassioned response from a State Rep. Mark B. Cohen, one of many Philadelphia-area representatives to vote against the bill.

“Having a state gun is deeply offensive to many people in Pennsylvania,” Cohen said on the floor. “We ought not to pass this amendment. We ought to show some sensitivity to the loss of human life.”

State Sen. Pat Browne first introduced a bill naming the Pennsylvania long rifle the state gun in 2010. Gun-rights activists have pushed for official state firearm designations for the last five years, with four states adopting official guns.

Read more: http://www.phillymag.com/news/2014/06/03/house-votes-name-official-pennsylvania-state-firearm



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House Votes to Name Official Pennsylvania ‘State Firearm’ (Original Post) onehandle Jun 2014 OP
I nominate this one: tclambert Jun 2014 #1
I second that. Our state gets dumber every year since Gasshole got in. nt Mnemosyne Jun 2014 #5
Oh FFS BumRushDaShow Jun 2014 #2
I'm glad I left PA when I did... Bryce Butler Jun 2014 #3
I'm shocked that wasn't done decades ago. bluedigger Jun 2014 #4
I don't see any mention of Daniel Boone anywhere rpannier Jun 2014 #7
It's still iconic of the colonization of the continent. bluedigger Jun 2014 #18
Actually, the Pennsylvania long rifle and the Tennessee long gun OffWithTheirHeads Jun 2014 #6
Actually the Long Rifle was marginal in the Revolution happyslug Jun 2014 #23
Intereesting. I can testify to the misfires and what a pain in the ass it is to pull a ball. OffWithTheirHeads Jun 2014 #24
Sorry about adding the Comments about the Winchester after you have made your post happyslug Jun 2014 #25
Philadelphia and Pittsburgh with Alabama in between. name not needed Jun 2014 #8
We call the middle of the state Pennsyltucky Divernan Jun 2014 #27
The gun that screams 1950's Americana and all that is good in the republican mind. Half-Century Man Jun 2014 #9
Yes, but watch out for your eye packman Jun 2014 #17
Yes, I saw a training video about it Half-Century Man Jun 2014 #20
From the greatest Xmas movie ever - packman Jun 2014 #22
OK, how about we name an official state gun shot victim? Kelvin Mace Jun 2014 #10
These people are sick fucks. nt valerief Jun 2014 #11
T-Shirt Cannon. JohnnyRingo Jun 2014 #12
Oh, for f/ck sakes. Really?!?! blkmusclmachine Jun 2014 #13
even I know sweetapogee Jun 2014 #14
Well, if people were only allowed to own Long Rifles... malthaussen Jun 2014 #15
As a Floridian, it's my duty to point out that this story did *not* take place in Florida. Tommy_Carcetti Jun 2014 #16
No it's not, but as a Floridian packman Jun 2014 #19
Because, Florida, fuck yeah! nt Tommy_Carcetti Jun 2014 #21
How about the official state injury? shenmue Jun 2014 #26

bluedigger

(17,086 posts)
4. I'm shocked that wasn't done decades ago.
Tue Jun 3, 2014, 08:37 PM
Jun 2014

That's the birthplace of Daniel Boone, who leaned to shoot as a youth there. That's American History. Shouldn't even be politicized with the modern gun debate, and I'm sorry it has/will be.

rpannier

(24,329 posts)
7. I don't see any mention of Daniel Boone anywhere
Tue Jun 3, 2014, 09:26 PM
Jun 2014

So what exactly does he have to do with the conversation?
It was the weapon carried by Pennsylvanians in the 18th and 19th century and that was the reason given.
So it was also used to kill a lot of native Americans
Should that little tidbit also be included?

bluedigger

(17,086 posts)
18. It's still iconic of the colonization of the continent.
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 10:59 AM
Jun 2014

The fact that we took this country from the native Americans early on in armed conflict is indisputable, and in many cases dishonorable acts were carried out. Our record was bad, but history is what it is, and I am glad we succeeded. I rather like our "sea to shining sea".

When colonists like Daniel were pushing the frontier forward it was a real life and death, personal struggle, in which he lost several of his own children. The first colonist to settle west of the Appalachians, and reputed to have reached the Yellowstone River in his senior years. An amazing, and fittingly complicated founder of our country.



The Pennsylvania long rifle was symbolic of Daniel Boone, whose real life exploits inspired several generations of Americans to head West. As one of the first truly American innovations to gain global notice it inspired inventors and tinkerers to make us a modern and adaptive nation.



He, and the rifle he carried, have been on our currency and postage and are iconic symbols of our founding. If Pennsylvania wishes to officially acknowledge the distinctiveness of it by official act, I don't have a problem with that. My dog is a Catahoula, the State Dog of Louisiana. Catahoulas are distinctive to the state of Louisiana historically. A lot of states have named State Things for a lot more obscure reasons. If this has to be some sort of modern day victory for guns rights activists then I am willing to concede the ground in this case. I prefer to view it as official recordation of American History, and I would love to have a real Pennsylvania long rifle hanging over my mantle. If I had a mantle.

 

OffWithTheirHeads

(10,337 posts)
6. Actually, the Pennsylvania long rifle and the Tennessee long gun
Tue Jun 3, 2014, 09:25 PM
Jun 2014

were instrumental in winning the Revolutionary war. Both were some of the first guns to use rifled barrels. The British, as I understand it, were basically using smooth bore equivalents of shotguns. In the right hands, an American long gun could hit a target at 1,000 yards. A British smooth bore would have been good for about 25 yards. Both of the American long guns were magnificent pieces of American craftsmanship. I built a re-creation of a Tennessee long gun a few years ago. It took me three years WITH power tools and electric light. The craftsmanship required is just unimaginable back in the day. If any guns need to be honored in our culture, these two should be.

I know that many people here hate guns, period. But without these guns you might still b singing "Hail to the Queen".

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
23. Actually the Long Rifle was marginal in the Revolution
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 12:25 PM
Jun 2014

Last edited Wed Jun 4, 2014, 02:08 PM - Edit history (3)

The "American Rifle" as it was called in the 1700s (the name Kentucky and Pennsylvania Rifles is a late 1800 or early 1900s name adopted name for that type of rifle) had two bad characteristics when compared to smooth bore muskets.

The first was speed of reloading. A smooth bore musket could reload as fast as six rounds a minute. The American Rifle was restricted to two rounds per minute (which was better the the Jäger or hunting Rifle used by the Hessians which could fire only one round per minute). Worse, misfires occurred every six shots (this would continue till the percussion cap was adopted starting in 1830, with percussion caps misfires dropped to one in a thousand shots).

Side note: The reason the American Rifle was faster to load then the German Jäger Rifles was that the Americans had adopted the Greased Patch to speed up loading in the Rifle barrel. The German Jäger Rifles did not thus took longer to load and to fix if a misfire occurred. On the other hand, the Jäger Rifles had greater range and Accuracy and used against the Americans with Great effect by the British during the Revolution..


Second side note: The Percussion Cap burns at 800-1000 degrees Fahrenheit. The Sparks from a Flint Lock runs about 300 degrees. This difference is temperatures is why the Percussion cap is that much more reliable. At 800-1000 Degrees, a Percussion Cap can get even damp, and sometimes wet, powder to burn. This difference also explains why the Bow and Arrow stayed competitive as a Military Weapon till the Percussion Cap. The Bow and Arrow has a removable bow strings, which could be kept dry by simply putting it in your pocket. Thus in damp weather, a Bow and Arrow was still usable when a Flint lock rifle was not. This is the chief reason the Mongols and other "Tarters" of Russia and Siberia kept using the bow till the late 1800s. Poles also used bows in the 1700s, as did the Scots in their Battles with the English in the early 1700s. The Battle of Culloden in 1746 is noted for being the first battle of the 1700s between Scottish highlanders and the English where the Bow was NOT present. Several Historians had said that was the key to the Scottish defeat. The Fire power of the English was NOT that Great to explain the victory. The reason for the absence of the Bow, is that the Bow was the weapon of the Peasants and by the 1740s the process of turning out those peasants and replacing them with Sheep was already in full gear. Thus the peasants saw no difference between the two sides and stayed home, thus no Archers and the battle was lost. The Peasants acknowledge this over time for they came to hate sheep. During the Crimea War, the British set up recruiters to the Highlands to get recruits. When they came to a Village and started to ask for recruits all they heard from the people of the Villages was "Ba Ba Ba". The British in 1854 wanted men from the Highlands, but since the early 1700s the British Policy had been to replace the Men of the Highlands with Sheep. This was being felt by the Peasants of the Highlands by 1746, but had NOT been felt by them in the earlier battles of the early 1700s. My point here is the Bow and Arrow was competitive with the Musket and the Rifle till the percussion cap came into general use and that is after 1840. This had to do with the Technology and the change in Technology used in Warfare. Just because a weapon is viewed as "old fashion" does not make it ineffective. During Vietnam the US used native with Crossbows, for their were quite and had longer range then the silenced weapons the US had available. Thus in much of the Frontier it was the Rifle vs the Bow, and they is some evidence the divide was not as great as it is reflected in the Historical Record.


The real effect of this high rate of misfires is in a muzzle loading rifle, you had to pull out the bullet. This could take cover five minutes. Thus after about a minute of combat any rifle unit had seen its fire power drop by 90 %. Smooth bore muskets fired undersized bullets, that could be removed, by just just turning the musket with the barrel to the ground and watch the bullet roll out. Total time out of action less then 10 seconds.

The second problem was no bayonet. Given the high rate of misfires a serious defect (fixed with the adoption of the 1803 Harper's Ferry Rifle).

These two restriction forced Washington to issue an order that no Rifle regiment could go into combat without being supported by TWO musket equipped infantry regiments.

By the time of the US Civil war, the percussion cap had been in use in the UK since 1830 and the US Army since 1842. In 1854 the US adopted the Minie ball, which permitted undersized bullets to be used in rifle barrels with loading time equal to smooth bore muskets. The percussion cap eliminated most misfires, so misfires were not a big a factor as in the Revolution. Thus during the US Civil War Rifles were used by both sides, unlike the Revolution when rifles were important for they much longer range, but the problems of misfires and loading times restricted they use, as can be seen in Washington's order that any rifle regiment by supported by two musket equipped regiments.

As to the American/Kentucky/Pennsylvania Rifle, it stayed in production till the 1950s in Appalachian Mountains for it was cheap to operate (Small bore meant you only needed small amounts of lead and powder, things imported into the Colonies till the Revolution, Powder being imported till DuPont build his first powder mill when Jefferson was President). Thus in the 1800s the price of lead and powder declined and as people ran into larger game that existed in the West, other weapons became preferred on the Frontier. On the other hand Annie Oakly's first weapon was her father's American Rifle and she started to use it in the late 1860s (In her days with the Wild West Show, she opt for 22 caliber rimfire rifles, a little bit more expensive to operate but a lot easier to use).

Thus the American Rifle was popular east of the Mississippi till about 1880 when the 22 came into its own (yes the 22 was invented in the 1860s, but it took a while for people to switch). By 1900 the American Rifle had been restricted to Appalachian Mountains (Sargent York, the most decorated American Soldier of WWI, grew up using such a rifle, through he was known also as an excellent pistol shot). If you had money you opt for a more modern rifle, but in the poorest parts of America the American Rifle was King till the Great Depression finally forced many of its last users out of the Mountains and into Northern Cities.

Winchester copyrighted the term "The Gun that won the West". but the gun that actually won the West was the American Rifle. IT was the America rifle that was the main weapon on the frontier (Through they was probably more shotguns on the Frontier then anything else). The Winchester came late to the conflict and being expensive rarely used (Till the 1886 model, Winchester tended NOT be the weapons of choice even in the west, Sharps and Remington Rolling blocks were more popular for they could be had in 45-70, the main Army round of the time period, the early Winchesters were designed for much weaker rounds such as the 44-40). In 1886 Winchester had Browning design a completely new lever action rifle. Browning not only designed a weapon that could fire 45-70 rounds, but could be produced at much lower costs then the earlier Winchesters. This was followed by the Model 1892 (to replace the 1873 with a design based on the 1886 but set for the still popular 44-40 round) and the 1894 (Designed for the then new SMOKELESS round 30-30. which was more powerful then the black powder 44-40 but not as powerful as the 45=70). Browning also designed a model 1895 for the then Army round of 30-40. another smokeless powder round the Army had adopted to replace the black powder 45-70 round). Till Winchester Finally stopped making all rifles just a few years ago, the 1894 was in production. The 1894 was for decades the preferred deer rifle in Pennsylvania, and thus you can say was the rifle that finally replaced the American Rifle in Rural Pennsylvania.
 

OffWithTheirHeads

(10,337 posts)
24. Intereesting. I can testify to the misfires and what a pain in the ass it is to pull a ball.
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 12:54 PM
Jun 2014

thanks for taking the time to educate me further.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
25. Sorry about adding the Comments about the Winchester after you have made your post
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 01:38 PM
Jun 2014

But the most telling fact is that George Washington ordered ALL Rifle Regiments NOT to go into Combat unless supported by two Musket Equipped Infantry regiments.

On the Frontier, most combat involved less then 20 men on both sides. In such situations the American Rifle came into its own (Most combat involving such small units tend to be over in about a minute, one side or the other is captured, shot or retreating). Thus the down sides of the American Rifle rarely came into play. On the other hand, even on the Frontier, when actual volume of fire was called for, it was the Musket that was supreme during the Revolutionary period.

Thus General, late President, Jackson went against Native Americans, the frontiersmen supplied the rifle units, but they had ordered to retreat to the infantry lines if things went bad and leave the line infantry take care of any Native Americans who followed the frontier men back to camp. When attacking a Native American Village the Frontiersmen went in first, but these tend to be over in under a minute. When the Native American took a stand, the Frontiersmen would engage them, and then leave the regular infantry push through with their muskets and bayonets.

This was the tactics of the time period, these started to change with the adoption of the Percussion Cap in 1842 and then the Minnie ball in 1854 (and with the adoption of the first breech-loading rifle for use by regular infantry the Model 1866 in 50-70).

Side note: The US Army did permit Cavalry units to use the Spencer during the Civil War, and also permitted any unit to use any weapon provided it purchased the replacement rounds (This some units did use Henry Rifles, the predecessors to the model 1866 Winchester). After the Civil War the US Army restricted itself to the Model 1866 in 50-70 for its infantry units and Spencers and Sharps for the Cavarly (The Sharps was a single shot weapon that had long range capacity, the Spencer was a magazine weapon that could fire a lot of rounds in 30 seconds but at much shorter range, the two complimented each other nicely). All three were replaced in 1873 by the 1873 Springfield in 45-70 (With the Cavalry getting a 20 inch carbine and reduce loading of the 45-70 rounds).

Thus from the 1840s till the 1870s you saw a massive change in weapons technologies. You went from an era where the bayonet could still claim to be the King of the Battlefield, to one where it was often thrown away as useless. You went from a period when Rifles were at best a secondary support weapon to the Musket and Bayonet, to one where Rifles are the main battle field weapon (Over 60% of all causalities were done by Rifle Bullets in the Civil War, In combat today, if you are fighting in Woods, Mountains or Cities, similar percentage occur, it is only in open fields where you seen injuries done by rifles reduced to less then 50%. Please note most combat occurred in such forested terrain during the Civil War, for the US was still in the process of deforesting itself at the period in time).



 

Kelvin Mace

(17,469 posts)
10. OK, how about we name an official state gun shot victim?
Tue Jun 3, 2014, 09:33 PM
Jun 2014

I suggest a four year old who blew his brains out playing with daddy's gun.

JohnnyRingo

(18,624 posts)
12. T-Shirt Cannon.
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 03:52 AM
Jun 2014

I threw myself into the line of fire once at an Eagles concert at Star Lake Amphitheater Near Pittsburgh.

Still, Cleveland Rocks!

Wait... are they talking about a real gun?
Never mind, fuck em'. That's stupid.

malthaussen

(17,186 posts)
15. Well, if people were only allowed to own Long Rifles...
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 10:24 AM
Jun 2014

... there'd be a lot fewer mass shootings. Somebody at DU has already floated that idea, though.

Silly legislature. I never got the point of having 50 different "official state" whatevers. Why do they waste their time on this crap?

-- Mal

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,173 posts)
16. As a Floridian, it's my duty to point out that this story did *not* take place in Florida.
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 10:46 AM
Jun 2014

Although with the iron grip that Marion Hammer and the NRA have on the Florida legislature, one might assume that it would.

But it didn't!

So I repeat....not a Florida story.

 

packman

(16,296 posts)
19. No it's not, but as a Floridian
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 11:01 AM
Jun 2014

When we do adopt a rifle, it will be an assault rifle that can spew out at least 2,000 rounds per minute - not that pansy long rifle that the settlers of Pennsylvania used.

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