Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Judi Lynn

(160,212 posts)
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 01:38 PM Jun 2014

California teacher tenure law unconstitutional

Source: Associated Press

Jun 10, 1:23 PM EDT
California teacher tenure law unconstitutional
By LINDA DEUTSCH
AP Special Correspondent

LOS ANGELES (AP) -- A judge has ruled that California's tenure protections for public school teachers are unconstitutional.

Los Angeles County Superior Court Judge Rolf Treu on Tuesday ruled in favor of nine students who sued the state saying tenure and seniority policies have made it virtually impossible to fire bad teachers.

Lawyers for the teachers say the changes would allow the firing of teachers on a whim. They argued that tenure laws preserve academic freedom and help attract talented teachers to a profession that doesn't pay well.

The decision could have wide-ranging impact on the way California hires and fires teachers and could spur changes in other states with strong tenure laws.



Read more: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_TEACHER_TENURE?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-06-10-13-23-20

100 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
California teacher tenure law unconstitutional (Original Post) Judi Lynn Jun 2014 OP
the anti union race to the top promoters must be drooling with delight nt msongs Jun 2014 #1
I think the Plantiffs are hardly anti-union. nt msanthrope Jun 2014 #7
Not only are they anti-union they wish the complete privitization of public schools nt. liskddksil Jun 2014 #24
The eight schoolchildren listed? The ones who testified at trial? Kindly tell me which named msanthrope Jun 2014 #25
All the Rhee, Gates, Broad, Silicon Valley, Hedgefund Money that are Financing Students Matter liskddksil Jun 2014 #30
Judas kids n/t reddread Jun 2014 #31
Yeah those 8 students pooled all their money together and got some lawyers to represent them. neverforget Jun 2014 #60
And not a one of them anywhere to be seen in the 2012 election Starry Messenger Jun 2014 #65
You know, when Justice Marshall and the NAACP put together the Brown Plaintiffs, they msanthrope Jun 2014 #67
If you can't recognize obvious window-dressing then go ahead and continue to be deceived nikto Jun 2014 #92
Indeed...I remember the critiques of Thurgood Marshall and the NAACP when the msanthrope Jun 2014 #95
Nice try at turning it around---FAIL nikto Jun 2014 #99
this is more about teachers who sexually abuse their students hopemountain Jun 2014 #62
What are you talking about???? such Tenured teachers are FIRED all the time, happyslug Jun 2014 #83
what part of the constitution is it violating leftyohiolib Jun 2014 #2
Equal protection. nt msanthrope Jun 2014 #5
dont they have to prove that these teachers are bad in order to say that they leftyohiolib Jun 2014 #8
In the two month trial, they apparently did. nt msanthrope Jun 2014 #13
ok thanks, didnt see that in the paper leftyohiolib Jun 2014 #46
Damn. femmocrat Jun 2014 #3
I journaled about this related civil rights case--- msanthrope Jun 2014 #4
And all the good teachers will leave the state bluestateguy Jun 2014 #6
The Rubber Room Mosby Jun 2014 #9
It took LAUSD 3.5 million and 5 years just to fire 7 incompetent teachers.... msanthrope Jun 2014 #16
Post removed Post removed Jun 2014 #50
That is a statement made on page 15 of the Complaint, and then NOT supported by any evidence happyslug Jun 2014 #84
The rubber rooms were closed about 5 years ago. It was easily done. It turns out that Squinch Jun 2014 #34
For the simplistic and sluggish of mind, the key sentence here is : Smarmie Doofus Jun 2014 #47
This has nothing to do with California. roody Jun 2014 #71
This message was self-deleted by its author Mosby Jun 2014 #10
What this article is saying is that it is taking from June to August to fire a teacher. 2 months. Squinch Jun 2014 #35
It doesn't take nearly so long, depending of course, upon the circumstance Big_Mike Jun 2014 #64
The average in the private sector companies I worked in were three documented incidents, Squinch Jun 2014 #82
This is about California. roody Jun 2014 #72
What does a DWI have to do with teaching???? happyslug Jun 2014 #85
Perhaps some of the kids drove her to drink. This could be a workplace disabilities case. Is there 24601 Jun 2014 #100
The whole concept of ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2014 #11
A new teacher costs half of my salary. roody Jun 2014 #26
In my organization ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2014 #28
your posts are informed and useful - thanks n/t Psephos Jun 2014 #29
We veterans do spend a lot of time helping new roody Jun 2014 #77
Does your school system have a formalized ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2014 #78
The state of California does. My district does not. roody Jun 2014 #80
I ask because ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2014 #81
Regardless, it s no reason to deny roody Jun 2014 #89
I do not support denying employment rights ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2014 #90
Would that apply also to tenure at universities? eom catrose Jun 2014 #12
No--K -12. nt msanthrope Jun 2014 #15
I'm not sure why the difference catrose Jun 2014 #20
The suit didn't address that. Frankly, I think they would be too disparate in situation. K-12 msanthrope Jun 2014 #22
Brown V Board. They convinced the court that K-12 tenure was causing racial discrimination. Xithras Jun 2014 #33
The two types of "tenure" are related only in name Recursion Jun 2014 #52
Also, I believe that if professors apply for tenure pennylane100 Jun 2014 #56
Universities usually have two "tracks" Recursion Jun 2014 #59
K&R DeSwiss Jun 2014 #14
It's virtually impossible to fire Supreme Court justices. GeorgeGist Jun 2014 #17
Are you referring to the California Judge (not a justice) that made this ruling? The State of 24601 Jun 2014 #43
Welcome to Silicon Valley corporate education. Starry Messenger Jun 2014 #18
If feel very uneasy about this, even after reading the posts here. I still don't see how tenure is freshwest Jun 2014 #91
The ironic thing is the funding issue is now reterograde Starry Messenger Jun 2014 #97
lots of posters in agreement with Team Bush these days reddread Jun 2014 #19
Ted Olsen was also an attorney for the Plaintiffs. Although he was on the wrong side of Bush v. msanthrope Jun 2014 #21
lots of posters in agreement with Team Bush these days reddread Jun 2014 #32
That one always does erodriguez Jun 2014 #42
I believe you may be onto something. DisgustipatedinCA Jun 2014 #45
Yes...of course an attorney who worked for the Obama campaign, has written about it extensively on msanthrope Jun 2014 #68
Well that attorney couldn't possibly be wrong because he worked for OBAMA! That makes neverforget Jun 2014 #86
She, as my username clearly indicates. nt msanthrope Jun 2014 #87
I'm sorry! Are you the former Obama attorney representing Student Matters? neverforget Jun 2014 #88
No. nt msanthrope Jun 2014 #96
Regardless, that attorney couldn't possibly be wrong because she worked for OBAMA! That makes neverforget Jun 2014 #93
So does the guy who President Obama appointed to handle education Freddie Stubbs Jun 2014 #69
Tenure does not guarantee lifetime employment Blue Idaho Jun 2014 #23
Well said, thanks. Skeeter Barnes Jun 2014 #36
+1 Attacking teachers would have been unfathomable in the past. Live and Learn Jun 2014 #63
This should be an OP. Most people do not know what K-12 tenure means. roody Jun 2014 #79
Aljazeera got it right in their article..... Mona Jun 2014 #27
Isn't the "academic freedom" argument kind of bogus for K-12 teachers? Nye Bevan Jun 2014 #37
With school boards increasingly filled with TeaBaggers it's essential. Blue Idaho Jun 2014 #38
A science teacher in Mississsippi teaching evolution needs academic freedom bluestateguy Jun 2014 #48
Tenure also protects a nutcase teaching creationism as science, however. Nye Bevan Jun 2014 #49
Another right winger on the boards. brentspeak Jun 2014 #51
That's twice in this thread that you, a non-donor, has accused a donor Nye Bevan Jun 2014 #54
Oh, a "donor" brentspeak Jun 2014 #57
Well, hurling accusations of being "right-wingers" at people, Nye Bevan Jun 2014 #58
It is disgusting behavior davidpdx Jun 2014 #70
Or, in my junior high for instance, a science teacher saying the sun went around the earth Recursion Jun 2014 #53
Does Mississippi have employment rights for teachers? roody Jun 2014 #73
It's unionized, or was 25 years ago Recursion Jun 2014 #75
If it is a 'right to work' state, the union has no power. roody Jun 2014 #76
Bad news. blkmusclmachine Jun 2014 #39
time to boycott, divest our retirement fund and get public colleges & universities to divest from yurbud Jun 2014 #40
Damn Just damn. DamnYankeeInHouston Jun 2014 #41
bump... nt Jesus Malverde Jun 2014 #44
Man that judge threw everything at them ripcord Jun 2014 #55
Yeah, imagine all the great teachers they are going to get Live and Learn Jun 2014 #61
not that there are'nt some BAD teachers, but DonCoquixote Jun 2014 #66
We are fighting a similar situation here in Dallas, TX... kjackson227 Jun 2014 #74
INFO on THE JUDGE...l nikto Jun 2014 #94
thanks reddread Jun 2014 #98
 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
25. The eight schoolchildren listed? The ones who testified at trial? Kindly tell me which named
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 03:46 PM
Jun 2014

Plaintiff is anti-union?

 

liskddksil

(2,753 posts)
30. All the Rhee, Gates, Broad, Silicon Valley, Hedgefund Money that are Financing Students Matter
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 04:22 PM
Jun 2014

for this case. At the national level the money going to Students First, Democrats for Education Reform and all the other organizations intent on destroying public schools. We know their end game, which relies completely on charters, virtual schools and the like and the total elimination of teaching as long-term career path. Just look at New Orleans for a case study. Let's not get distracted by the 8 students who are being used as pawns in their game.

neverforget

(9,433 posts)
60. Yeah those 8 students pooled all their money together and got some lawyers to represent them.
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 11:35 PM
Jun 2014

Not! Funny how millionaires that don't send their kids to public schools want to destroy unions. Hmmm, I wonder why? Oh there's money to be made by privatizing the public schools.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/11/us/california-teacher-tenure-laws-ruled-unconstitutional.html?smid=tw-bna&_r=0

Both sides expect the case to generate more like it in cities and states around the country. David Welch, a Silicon Valley technology magnate, spent several million dollars to create the organization that brought the Vergara case to court — Students Matter — and paid for a team of high-profile lawyers, including Theodore J. Boutrous Jr., who helped win a Supreme Court decision striking down California’s same-sex marriage ban.


http://crooksandliars.com/2014/03/meet-silicon-valley-millionaires-funding

David Welch: David Welch is a wealthy Silicon Valley businessman who is the founder of Students Matter. His bio on the Students Matter website says "[h]is passion for public education arises from his roles both as a parent of three school-aged children and as an employer in two highly successful start-ups in Silicon Valley."

Do his children attend public school, I wondered? The answer was rather startling: they do not appear to be public school students. A review of the donations made by Welch’s private foundation shows contributions to two high-end private schools in the Menlo Welch and his wife donate to both of the top private schools in the Atherton area. David and Heidi Welch donated to Sacred Heart Schools in 2010, a system of private schools that cost between $21-$35k/year, and their foundation has also donated to the capital campaign and the annual fund of the Menlo School, a private school with a $37k/year tuition.

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
65. And not a one of them anywhere to be seen in the 2012 election
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 04:36 AM
Jun 2014

where teachers union crafted legislation, Prop 30, that raised taxes that pretty much stopped education layoffs. Which is funny, since you think they'd be all over that, with the caring about teachers having jobs and whatnot.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
67. You know, when Justice Marshall and the NAACP put together the Brown Plaintiffs, they
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 08:23 AM
Jun 2014

were accused of manipulating the system, too. So I take your critique with a grain of salt....because surely, surely you are not accusing the minor Plaintiffs of anything nefarious???

As for Mr. Welch, his kids did attend public schools.

 

nikto

(3,284 posts)
92. If you can't recognize obvious window-dressing then go ahead and continue to be deceived
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 03:24 AM
Jun 2014

The anti-union/pro-investor group side has a well-known modus operandi:

Again and again, kids and parents from low income/impacted areas are located (often families with
legitimate gripes that are sublimated for their handlers' purposes),
they are programmed, and used by the anti-union/investor side to push charter schools or a similar agenda.
The issue at hand is always skillfully attached to the family's gripes, and is done so
with a finesse equivalent to the best Madison Ave minds.

The Parent Trigger Law (and its use/abuse) is an informative example of this process, which has been documented.

Again and again, with the Parent-Trigger Law, the kids and parents used by the anti-union side LATER regret
what they were part of (i.e. privatizing their local school and LOSING local control to portfolio manager-types).
But by the time they realized how they were used, it is way too late, and the process is done.

Future parents?
They'll get those schools back to local control from investors' cold, dead hands.

These just scratch the surface:


http://dianeravitch.net/2013/06/01/parent-trigger-sets-parents-against-parents-in-los-angeles/

http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/04/10/3336512/the-dark-side-of-parent-trigger.html

http://educationopportunitynetwork.org/the-disempowerment-of-public-school-parents/

http://www.gainesville.com/article/20130329/OPINION/130329438

http://seattleducation2010.wordpress.com/2013/04/23/the-weekly-update-the-parent-trigger-its-a-scam-the-charter-school-waiting-list-scam-in-chicago-and-elsewhere-the-common-core-standards-dumped-by-the-rnc-and-more-2/

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
95. Indeed...I remember the critiques of Thurgood Marshall and the NAACP when the
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 08:10 AM
Jun 2014
Brown Plaintiffs were assembled.

Were they similar "window dressing" on their EP claim? I suspect you have read the decision, and disagree with court's reliance on Brown? Why?
 

nikto

(3,284 posts)
99. Nice try at turning it around---FAIL
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 08:13 PM
Jun 2014

Just like school privatizers you use the language of the civil rights movement
to support a dishonest agenda of privatization/establishing schools-for-profit,
and destroying or weakening unions.

Am I wrong?
1--How much DO you support teachers' unions, and unions in-general?

2--What is your opinion of establishing for-profit schools in the place of Public Schools?

Maybe I'm wrong about you. I do want to be fair and accurate.

Answering those 2 questions, honestly, would clear up a lot,
and might make further dialog productive.

But with all due respect, those 2 questions come first.

I think you know how I would answer those 2 questions.

To me, both the GOP and Democrats are cataclysmically wrong on Public Ed policy,
and it is one of America's great tragedies (still in-process).

hopemountain

(3,919 posts)
62. this is more about teachers who sexually abuse their students
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 12:57 AM
Jun 2014

or who fail at teaching and are not fired because they have tenure.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
83. What are you talking about???? such Tenured teachers are FIRED all the time,
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 05:04 PM
Jun 2014

When it comes to sexual abuse, including having sex with a student OVER age 18, is grounds to be fired in ANY tenured track that I know of. Civil Service does NOT protect you from termination for willful misconduct, which includes anything NOT in the best interest of your employer.

Incompetency is also grounds to lose tenure and to be fired. Now, the burden is on the person saying a teacher is incompetent, but if the administration does its work, it can be done.

The problem is what people who CLAIM that you can not fire a tenured teacher, are really saying that they want the RIGHT to fire any teacher for any reason or no reason as long as the reason is not illegal. i.e. Shift the burden of proving the teacher was wrongfully fired from the Administration to the teacher.

African Americans complain of this burden of proof all the time. People discriminate against African Americas all the time, but it is up to the African American to prove the discrimination happened NOT on the person doing the discrimination is not discriminating (and the US Supreme Court has ruled that using statistics that shows a pattern of such discrimination does not prove discrimination for each case of discrimination must stand on its on evidence not statistics that such discrimination is occurring even if the statistics clearly shows it for one employer).

Remember, that is all tenure does, it shifts the burden of proof from the employee to the employer. A tenured teacher is assumed to be competent and operating within his or her employment contract (which includes tenure) and it is the administration that must show that the teacher is NOT performing within the employee's obligations within that contract.

What these people want is the ability to fire any teacher for no reason, and leave it up to the teacher to prove any illegal cause for the termination. i.e. if the teacher is accused of sexual misconduct, what the employer wants is the ability to fire the teacher without having to prove the sexual misconduct.

Example "We fired the teacher for he was living with a woman, who was a minor, who was not his wife".

Such termination would be upheld even if the girl involved was the DAUGHTER of the teacher (i.e a minor woman who is living with the teacher) until a court would hear the evidence and even then the termination would be upheld for such termination was within the "Right" of the employer for the teacher did not have tenure.

Sorry, incompetent tenure teachers, like incompetent civil servants, can be fired for cause. It requires work on the part of the Employer but it can be done. All Tenure does is shift the burden of proof as to who has to gather the evidence to support a claim for wrongful termination from the employee to the employer.

 

leftyohiolib

(5,917 posts)
8. dont they have to prove that these teachers are bad in order to say that they
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 02:03 PM
Jun 2014

are getting bad teachers?

bluestateguy

(44,173 posts)
6. And all the good teachers will leave the state
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 01:46 PM
Jun 2014

Tenure protects a hell of a lot more good teachers than bad ones. If I was a district school superintendent in Arizona or Nevada, I'd be on the phone right now trying to poach away the superstar teachers in CA public schools.

Mosby

(16,160 posts)
9. The Rubber Room
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 02:04 PM
Jun 2014

In a windowless room in a shabby office building at Seventh Avenue and Twenty-eighth Street, in Manhattan, a poster is taped to a wall, whose message could easily be the mission statement for a day-care center: “Children are fragile. Handle with care.” It’s a June morning, and there are fifteen people in the room, four of them fast asleep, their heads lying on a card table. Three are playing a board game. Most of the others stand around chatting. Two are arguing over one of the folding chairs. But there are no children here. The inhabitants are all New York City schoolteachers who have been sent to what is officially called a Temporary Reassignment Center but which everyone calls the Rubber Room.

These fifteen teachers, along with about six hundred others, in six larger Rubber Rooms in the city’s five boroughs, have been accused of misconduct, such as hitting or molesting a student, or, in some cases, of incompetence, in a system that rarely calls anyone incompetent.

The teachers have been in the Rubber Room for an average of about three years, doing the same thing every day—which is pretty much nothing at all. Watched over by two private security guards and two city Department of Education supervisors, they punch a time clock for the same hours that they would have kept at school—typically, eight-fifteen to three-fifteen. Like all teachers, they have the summer off. The city’s contract with their union, the United Federation of Teachers, requires that charges against them be heard by an arbitrator, and until the charges are resolved—the process is often endless—they will continue to draw their salaries and accrue pensions and other benefits.

“You can never appreciate how irrational the system is until you’ve lived with it,” says Joel Klein, the city’s schools chancellor, who was appointed by Mayor Michael Bloomberg seven years ago.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/08/31/090831fa_fact_brill


Response to msanthrope (Reply #16)

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
84. That is a statement made on page 15 of the Complaint, and then NOT supported by any evidence
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 05:23 PM
Jun 2014

Thus I can claim it took the LAUSD only .48 cents to do so, the cost of the stamp in the envelope to each teacher of the the termination of the teacher.

Now, at trial the Plaintiff MAY have proved that allege fact, but stating it in the complaint does not prove it to be true.

Squinch

(50,773 posts)
34. The rubber rooms were closed about 5 years ago. It was easily done. It turns out that
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 04:42 PM
Jun 2014

the issues was not that it was impossible to fire the teachers, it was just that the city didn't bring the cases against the teachers up for review.

Once they decided to bring the cases for review, it took only 4 months to clear out the rubber rooms. Most of the cases turned out to be unsubstantiated and most of the teachers were returned to the classrooms without further action. Some were returned to the classrooms with fines levied or with provisions made for probationary actions. About 100 teachers were fired. Out of the 600, there was cause to fire 100, and all of those firings were able to be completed within 4 months.

The article you cite is propaganda which gives a skewed story which has little resemblance to the truth.

And anyway, why are you digging back 5 years to repost this nonsense?

 

Smarmie Doofus

(14,498 posts)
47. For the simplistic and sluggish of mind, the key sentence here is :
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 09:57 PM
Jun 2014

>>>>> Most of the cases turned out to be unsubstantiated and most of the teachers were returned to the classrooms without further action.>>>>>>>

For the truly obtuse, the key sentence fragment is:

"Most of the cases turned out to be unsubstantiated "

That's "Most of the cases turned out to be unsubstantiated "

"Most of the cases turned out to be unsubstantiated "

"Most of the cases turned out to be unsubstantiated "

"Most of the cases turned out to be unsubstantiated "

"Most of the cases turned out to be unsubstantiated "

"Most of the cases turned out to be unsubstantiated "

"Most of the cases turned out to be unsubstantiated "

roody

(10,849 posts)
71. This has nothing to do with California.
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 09:43 AM
Jun 2014

I teach in Ca. and all tenure means is that I have a right to due process.

Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Squinch

(50,773 posts)
35. What this article is saying is that it is taking from June to August to fire a teacher. 2 months.
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 04:46 PM
Jun 2014

How long does it take to fire someone in the private sector? More than 2 months in every company I ever worked for.

Further, this article is from 2008. The rules have changed a lot in 6 years. All it takes to fire a teacher in NYC now is 3 unsatisfactory reviews. No money at all.

Why are you pushing this crap? None of it bears any resemblance to anything that happens today.

Big_Mike

(509 posts)
64. It doesn't take nearly so long, depending of course, upon the circumstance
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 02:21 AM
Jun 2014

We had a guy "working" on a project at his computer all day. He tripped some kind of a bot, and IT took a look at his history (he had deleted everything from his computer, but IT read the log. He had surfed porn all day. Boss got the report, called the HR folks, and he was fired on the spot. Security stood over his desk while he packed his stuff, and he was out the door before close of business for the day. His final check was couriered to him the next day.

Granted, this was egregious. It does take time to get rid of non-performers because of mentoring time, re-evaluation, improved training, etc. But it can move quickly.

Squinch

(50,773 posts)
82. The average in the private sector companies I worked in were three documented incidents,
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 04:04 PM
Jun 2014

and the responses to those incidents. The process took at least a few months.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
85. What does a DWI have to do with teaching????
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 05:33 PM
Jun 2014

If she was caught drinking on the job, or having alcohol on her (or even in her body) would be clear evidence of misconduct, but a DWI (in this case five) while OFF WORK and AWAY FROM THE SCHOOL, has little if any affect on her ability to be a teacher. Now, if she ends up doing Jail time, and not permitted to do work release, then that may interfere with her ability to teach, but if she ends up on work release how does that affect her ability to teach?

Remember the test is NOT that she was drunk OFF the clock, but did her drinking affect her ability to teach? I have known several people who were able to work, while drinking a case every night after work. Drinking, by itself, does NOT indicate an inability to do work and I suspect that is the problem the School administration has had with terminating this teacher. She is a drunk, but she appears also to be a competent teacher and only the later is to be considered by the arbitrator.

24601

(3,940 posts)
100. Perhaps some of the kids drove her to drink. This could be a workplace disabilities case. Is there
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 08:49 PM
Jun 2014

a lawyer in the house?

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
11. The whole concept of ...
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 02:07 PM
Jun 2014

Tenure protecting "Academic Freedom" has been turned on it's head. AF protects academicians in researching/studying/writing about/teaching of academic subjects/controversial ideas ... It does not protect academicians from speaking out against non-academic areas; nor, should Tenure guarantee lifetime employment.

Assuming that the school system affords Due Process, e.g., merit rule/workplace rule protections, I support getting rid of Tenure.

Now, Seniority is a different matter. Though I support it as a method for determining Classroom assignments, Teaching Assignments, etc., and in the event of down-sizing, Seniority should be one factor in the retention decision ... following performance determinations. However, the decision to retain a less senior teacher over a more senior teacher should be scrutinized closely.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
28. In my organization ...
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 04:03 PM
Jun 2014

the consideration is:

First, Probationary Status employees; then ...
Performance - based on most recent evaluation (within the last 12 months); then ...
Service with organization.

We do not consider salary, even if that means we might have to cut deeper into the staffing.

BTW, it is a misnomer that a new teacher "costs" half of "your" salary ... the new teacher might make half your salary; but requires far more resources to maintain, e.g., training, mentoring, efficiency, effectiveness, etc.

The cost of a newer teacher compared to that of a veteran teacher is actually higher until about the 4-6 year mark.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
81. I ask because ...
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 03:44 PM
Jun 2014

if the system has a formalized mentorship program, the mentoring is compensable. (Otherwise, the mentor is just being "a good team player.)

roody

(10,849 posts)
89. Regardless, it s no reason to deny
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 09:25 PM
Jun 2014

employees employment rights. They can keep the young one because she is cute and sexy, or they go to the same church. Pick any unjust reason.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
90. I do not support denying employment rights ...
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 09:33 PM
Jun 2014

In fact, I am a strong supporter of employment right ... just not rote application of survival rules.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
22. The suit didn't address that. Frankly, I think they would be too disparate in situation. K-12
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 03:00 PM
Jun 2014

is compulsory. University is not.

Xithras

(16,191 posts)
33. Brown V Board. They convinced the court that K-12 tenure was causing racial discrimination.
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 04:35 PM
Jun 2014

The students claimed that tenure violated Brown v. Board because unskilled teachers are typically shunted off to lower-performing schools (read: the "bad schools in poor neighborhoods&quot where parents are less likely to complain, rather than being fired. They convinced the court that the practice created a de facto two tiered educational system where the "higher quality" tenured teachers were placed in wealthier and whiter schools, and "underperforming" teachers ended up staffing poorer, minority dominated schools. They were able to demonstrate that tenure prevented school districts from removing these underperforming teachers, which would have theoretically allowed more capable teachers to be hired, providing better equilibrium to teacher quality and more equitable educational outcomes between minority and non-minority schools.

None of that applies to colleges and universities. Generally, tenure at one state college and university does not grant an educator right to a job at another. UC Berkeley isn't sending its "bad" tenured professors to UC Merced, for instance.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
52. The two types of "tenure" are related only in name
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 11:02 PM
Jun 2014

Collegiate tenure is to protect professors' ability to conduct research and publish, something K-12 teachers don't do that much.

It's a fair but rarely-addressed question to ask why we consider "publishing and research" to be a primary part of the job description of a university professor, rather than a separate job.

pennylane100

(3,425 posts)
56. Also, I believe that if professors apply for tenure
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 11:14 PM
Jun 2014

and are turned down, they have to leave the school. I do not know if that applies to school teachers but I doubt it.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
59. Universities usually have two "tracks"
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 11:19 PM
Jun 2014

You can be non-tenure track, which means you mostly teach, or tenure track, which means more and more of your time goes to research and administration. Since tenure-track is better-paid, more prestigious, and more secure, this has the perverse effect of getting the "best" professors to spend more and more of their time doing things besides teaching.

24601

(3,940 posts)
43. Are you referring to the California Judge (not a justice) that made this ruling? The State of
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 07:47 PM
Jun 2014

Massachusetts appoints judges/justices for life like the federal judiciary.

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
18. Welcome to Silicon Valley corporate education.
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 02:33 PM
Jun 2014

Hopefully everyone crowing this decision likes cookie cutter charters like Rocketship, because that is exactly what they are getting now.

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
91. If feel very uneasy about this, even after reading the posts here. I still don't see how tenure is
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 03:15 AM
Jun 2014
seen as a protector of bad actors in the schools.

What misathrope posted about the lawsuit does not appear to be about this. And that was not about tenure, it was about lack of funding.

The school district should've paid enough for permanent teachers. I feel these failures have been engineered to push for privatization. When a system fails, everyone suffers and the parents will lash out, as well.

The solution is getting elected to school boards that influence this and to legislatures. The wingnuts have always been keen to get on school boards and enact stupid policies.

Whatever is unConstitutional about tenure is beyond me, the decision appears to hit the wrong target. Perhaps a DUer will explain how this helps.

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
97. The ironic thing is the funding issue is now reterograde
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 09:25 AM
Jun 2014

The *unions* crafted a bill, the Millionaires Tax, that has made the draconian RIFs of the recession a thing of the past. We are also working on increasing the funding even more, to go beyond "staunch the bleeding" to "robustly funded."

None of the tenure haters is doing anything like that to help. This is all about union busting and bringing in more charters.

All tenure is is due process. The real target here is seniority, which the billionaires want to eliminate. Young teachers are cheap teachers, who have to worry about their jobs and won't rock the boat.

 

reddread

(6,896 posts)
19. lots of posters in agreement with Team Bush these days
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 02:38 PM
Jun 2014

"The lawsuit, Vergara v. California, was brought by Beatriz Vergara and eight other students who said they were saddled with teachers who let classrooms get out of control, came to school unprepared and in some cases told them they'd never make anything of themselves.

The lawsuit was backed by wealthy Silicon Valley entrepreneur David Welch's nonprofit group Students Matter, which assembled a high-profile legal team including Boutrous, who represented President George W. Bush before the U.S. Supreme Court in the 2000 recount of Florida presidential ballots. Welch, who made a fortune in corporate acquisitions, says he founded Students Matter because of a passion for public education, adding both he and his three children have attended public schools."

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
21. Ted Olsen was also an attorney for the Plaintiffs. Although he was on the wrong side of Bush v.
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 02:59 PM
Jun 2014

Gore, I assume you have no problem with his Prop 8 litigation?

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
68. Yes...of course an attorney who worked for the Obama campaign, has written about it extensively on
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 08:27 AM
Jun 2014

DU....must be team Bush.

If I agree with Ted Olsen on his prop 8 litigation, does that make me "Team Bush???"

neverforget

(9,433 posts)
86. Well that attorney couldn't possibly be wrong because he worked for OBAMA! That makes
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 07:43 PM
Jun 2014

everything okay even pushing Republican policies.

neverforget

(9,433 posts)
93. Regardless, that attorney couldn't possibly be wrong because she worked for OBAMA! That makes
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 03:31 AM
Jun 2014

everything okay even pushing Republican policies.

Blue Idaho

(4,988 posts)
23. Tenure does not guarantee lifetime employment
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 03:13 PM
Jun 2014

It guarantees due process. Obviously it depends on how tenure is configured (it differs state by state and school by school) but I would say more than protecting Academic freedom of speech - it provides due process and buffers teachers (and school districts) from capricious administrators with an agenda. Tenure should also include two other sub policies - removal for cause, and reduction in force policies. If a teacher is bad - there needs to be a timely process to either improve them or remove them. If there is a financial crisis - there needs to be a fair and equitable way to decide who goes and who stays. That's all there is to. Tenure provides the due process for teachers that you expect at your job.

Finally - it saddens me to see DU jumping on the Teacher as a Punching Bag bandwagon. The vast majority of teachers go above and beyond their contracted responsibilities to help students. Lots of them use their own money to provide materials the schools don't. Most teachers earn pay over nine months but are paid out over twelve months. So they are not paid for for down time. Finally - again today we hear about yet another school shooting. There are more shootings at schools than any other workplace by a long shot. Who do you think is left to pick up the pieces in the classroom when the news trucks leave the scene? The teachers.

Live and Learn

(12,769 posts)
63. +1 Attacking teachers would have been unfathomable in the past.
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 01:19 AM
Jun 2014

I can't believe people on DU are jumping on the bandwagon. Very sad to see.

Mona

(135 posts)
27. Aljazeera got it right in their article.....
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 04:00 PM
Jun 2014

There may be a problem with allowing bad teachers to continue teacher, and being reassigned to districts that have less political clout, but the answer is not to do away with tenure, which is important to those in the profession...


"One year of teaching experience is the new normal in America’s classrooms. Nationwide, schools are embracing tenderfoot teachers instead of skilled, veteran educators — what the industry calls master teachers, an informal moniker that denotes expertise in content creation, differentiated instruction and student outcomes in the face of education reform.

According to multiple peer-reviewed studies, the professional longevity of a master teacher — someone who has eight or more consecutive years in the classroom — leads to increased student engagement and academic success. These hallmarks of an exceptional education have become less than visible in the United States’ school system, which has not been deemed exceptional or even satisfactory for quite some time, according to international rankings by the Programme for International Student Assessment. Mediocrity in American education will persist as long as we have a disproportionate number of green teachers. What’s worse is that this mediocrity is easily avoidable and fully intentional.

Several reasons exist for this neophytism, but first among them is the decline of tenure.....


http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/6/education-teachercharterschoolstenure.html

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
37. Isn't the "academic freedom" argument kind of bogus for K-12 teachers?
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 05:04 PM
Jun 2014

I can see it for college professors, but how much "academic freedom" is needed to teach algebra and stuff to K-12 students?

Blue Idaho

(4,988 posts)
38. With school boards increasingly filled with TeaBaggers it's essential.
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 05:23 PM
Jun 2014

Perhaps not for math but what about a science teacher teaching evolution or global warming? How about a social studies teacher teaching civil rights or the story of the women's movement? How about history teachers teaching about fascism, democracy, socialism, and communism? Or how about literature teachers - do you have any idea how many books the TeaPublicans have banned and are trying to get banned from school libraries? Conservatives are fully engaged in your schools trying to infect the next generation. Teachers need to have a free hand to teach - not spout partisan propaganda. And we need to be there to support our teachers and to make sure textbooks and administrators aren't poisoning our kids minds.

Finally - if you look at my reply above (#23) you will see what I think tenure is really all about - guaranteeing teacher's due process.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
49. Tenure also protects a nutcase teaching creationism as science, however.
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 10:19 PM
Jun 2014

I'm honestly not sure what the answer is.

brentspeak

(18,290 posts)
51. Another right winger on the boards.
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 10:56 PM
Jun 2014

Wow, DU has really been infiltrated over the past several years.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
54. That's twice in this thread that you, a non-donor, has accused a donor
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 11:05 PM
Jun 2014

of being a "right-wing infiltrator". Kind of amusing, that.

brentspeak

(18,290 posts)
57. Oh, a "donor"
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 11:14 PM
Jun 2014

I've actually donated in the past, thanks, just not in this current cycle. You, a token amount simply to keep on the good side of the admins.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
58. Well, hurling accusations of being "right-wingers" at people,
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 11:19 PM
Jun 2014

just because you disagree with them, is likely to result in your posts being hidden. As you just found out.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
53. Or, in my junior high for instance, a science teacher saying the sun went around the earth
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 11:04 PM
Jun 2014

Yes, really. (She wasnt a fundamentalist, just breathtakingly stupid.) Though that was Mississippi, and teacher retention always always always brings up race.

yurbud

(39,405 posts)
40. time to boycott, divest our retirement fund and get public colleges & universities to divest from
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 05:52 PM
Jun 2014

"reformers" companies.

If we put a major hurt on their business, we'll quickly find out whether they are motivated by idealism or money.

ripcord

(5,084 posts)
55. Man that judge threw everything at them
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 11:08 PM
Jun 2014
At another point in the decision, he wrote that "there is also no dispute that there are a significant number of grossly ineffective teachers currently active in California classrooms

And Arne Duncan is falling in lockstep.

Live and Learn

(12,769 posts)
61. Yeah, imagine all the great teachers they are going to get
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 11:40 PM
Jun 2014

without a strong teachers union and decent benefits. What are they thinking? Since when did anyone come to believe that teachers have it too good. This is pathetic.

DonCoquixote

(13,615 posts)
66. not that there are'nt some BAD teachers, but
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 05:38 AM
Jun 2014

Most of the anti union types are the same "why should this guy get a nickel when I get paid a penny" types, the same types that are so focused on their fellow working class that they ignore the hundred dollar bills that the rich cannot even contain in their pockets.

kjackson227

(2,166 posts)
74. We are fighting a similar situation here in Dallas, TX...
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 10:08 AM
Jun 2014

... where there is an all out attack on teachers, students, and parents/taxpayers. This particular group, who's major donor is John Arnold (former Enron hedge funder) Todd Williams, and Bill Gates, are trying very hard to dismantle our public school system. Like someone stated above, this could be another attempt by the folks named above, and others to privatize our public school systems. And, if or when they do, their first priority will be to make more money, and not the academic success of our kids... Oh, btw, Dems are included in the takeover also...

 

nikto

(3,284 posts)
94. INFO on THE JUDGE...l
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 05:08 AM
Jun 2014

Check out this info on Judge Treu:

http://www.robeprobe.com/vote_details.php?judge_id=4056&user_id=46760&judge_Rolf%20M.__Treu

Excerpt:
"Lets his personal political agenda control his behavior and decisions. Just a poor judge in so many regards. "


Here's the guilty party, Judge Treu:

Latest Discussions»Latest Breaking News»California teacher tenure...