Start with all the groups spying on us.

Historically the Mafia in the USA has been very close to the GOP.

than the Godfathers; if the Pope is looking for folks to excommunicate.

In all honesty, I have to wonder what he calls the butchering of Europeans, specifically woman, for some 1800 years by the church? Were all these men, priests, bishops, and popes, also excommunicated? Or has the church created some 'special' status term for them? Sort of like what democrats do when they find men like Bush and Cheney guilty of war crimes, but say, "Oh, never mind."

It rather takes the sting out of his evil-calling.

There is a difference between the sins of dead men and the ongoing sin of those still alive. Dead men cant really be effectively disciplined. It seems to me that its more useful to focus on people who might actually be brought up short.

I'd say his consistency of message is more harmed by the ongoing issues over pedophile priests than a lack of speeches regarding things that happened over a thousand years ago.

a thousand years ago--please read your history. the 13th-18th centuries encompass only some of the most egregious of the rcc's evil. more recently-- the treatment of the indigenous peoples in north and south america, and the treatment of women in the catholic hospitals in this country ongoing.

I was addressing the poster who wanted the pope to address things from 1800 years ago

Can we agree that all of the perpetrators of the inquisition and the witchburnings are, as of 2014, deceased and have been for over 100 years? Its not exactly the most current of concerns.

The horrific treatment of indigenous (generally of poor people all over, by what I read) peoples was far more recent. But unless I have mistaken the dates, the perpetrators of those crimes are also deceased.

The actions of the mafia are ongoing. The actions of the pedophile priests are at best recent past, with the coverup ongoing. And in my opinion, the abuse of children probably also ongoing. What treatment of women in catholic hospitals are we referring to? I guess i haven't followed all the stories.

Im not a Catholic, But I can tell you which omission I think detracts from moral pronouncements of the pope, and which I would advocate that he spend his time addressing.

1800 years AGO. slight difference. please learn your history. and no, we don't all agree to just pretend this never happened, because the perps are dead. no, I guess you haven't been following the stories about the treatment (or lack thereof) in catholic hospitals, but, hey, who cares, right? your comments sound an awful lot like "let's look forward, not back", and with pretty much the same results.

Lets fight just to fight!

I am wrong on the 1800 year thing. I messed up in my reading. I apologize.

I am not aware of the treatment issues in catholic hospitals. Its not been a story Ive followed. I am not omniscient. I admit it. There are many stories I follow, but I dont catch them all. If you point me at a few articles, I will happily go and become better informed.

But I fully stand by my belief that I think the pope does better to address currently happening wrongs than those of dead men. I respect taking on the mafia. I would respect it a hell of a lot more if he was also doing more to take on the pedophile priest issue. And the apparent catholic hospital issue. When he has helped those who live and suffer today, he can worry about those who are dead.

I am a lot less concerned about condemnations of dead men than those who still live. Bush and Cheney are still alive. I advocate prosecuting them. Hoover is not, nor is Nixon. Prosecuting them for misdeeds in office would seem to me to be of far less importance than dealing with those who still live.

organization for decades, and nothing changes.

you asked about the catholic church and hospitals, etc. here are a few links to get you started (and it is amazing how few people really know about this):
(and also note that, in many areas, there is ONLY the catholic hospital, no other hospitals anywhere near. google "catholic hospitals treat women" to start)
. . .



"When you go into a hospital or an ER, you do not think that there's a bishop between you and your doctor," says Linda McCarthy, CEO of a Planned Parenthood branch in western Washington. In 2010, Peter Sartain, a prominent bishop recently enlisted by the church to crack down on nuns deemed too liberal, was appointed to the Seattle diocese. Not long afterward, he told the Catholic hospital in McCarthy's area to stop performing lab work for Planned Parenthood that the hospital had handled for at least a decade, including tests unrelated to abortion, such as cholesterol screenings. McCarthy publicized the demand and the hospital backed off, for the time being.

"The Catholic bishops are seizing an opportunity to control the health care we all pay for, and they're being wildly successful," says Monica Harrington, the co-chair of Washington Women for Choice. A spate of proposed deals could leave Catholic facilities accounting for 50 percent of the state's hospital admissions. "We could very well end up with three conservative bishops overseeing health care for 6 million people," McCarthy says.

Abortion services are always quick to go when a Catholic hospital takes over, but the changes go much further. In many cases, doctors are prohibited from prescribing birth control, and hospital pharmacies won't sell it. Doctors may even be told not to counsel patients about it. Catholic hospitals have been reluctant to offer emergency contraception to rape victims, and when they do, they first require a pregnancy test to ensure the woman was not pregnant before the assault. The bishops' guidelines forbid tubal ligations and vasectomies. They also extend to end-of-life care: Catholic hospitals may ignore patients' requests to be removed from feeding tubes or life support, even if those wishes are expressed in living wills. And many states allow religious hospitals to discriminate against gays and lesbians, both as employees and as patients.

. . . .

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/10/catholic-hospitals-bishops-contraception-abortion-health-care


pr.org/blogs/health/2013/12/02/248243411/aclu-sues-u-s-bishops-says-catholic-hospital-rules-put-women-at-risk


http://www.freep.com/article/20131202/NEWS06/312020076/Catholic-hospitals-miscarriage-ACLU



. . .


A public-health giant

Catholic hospitals provide care for 1 in 6 patients in the United States; they are, collectively, the largest not-for-profit health care provider in the country. As secular hospitals merge with Catholic ones, many health care organizations and the communities they serve are on edge. In Washington state, for example, mergers mean that nearly half of hospital beds are in facilities controlled or influenced by the church, and in many regions a Catholic hospital is the sole provider. Nationwide, Catholic health care providers grew by 16 percent from 2001 to 2011. The number of secular nonprofit hospitals dropped by 12 percent in that period; the number of public hospitals fell by 31 percent.

Catholic health care providers are bound by the Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Care Services, a document issued by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops that governs how health care providers should deal with reproductive issues, end-of-life care, the “spiritual responsibility” of Catholic health care and a variety of other concerns. The range of women’s health care options that Catholic facilities offer is limited — sometimes, like when a pregnancy goes wrong, to a deadly degree. And while most doctors have an ethical obligation to inform patients of all their options, Catholic facilities routinely refuse to offer even abortions necessary to save a pregnant woman’s life; their doctors are also barred from telling a patient with a nonviable pregnancy that there are other, often safer options available elsewhere, lest the patient seek care at another facility. (LGBT patients may also run into problems, whether it is with hormone therapy for transgender patients or simply the right of married same-sex partners to be treated as next of kin in making health care decisions).

. . . .

http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/2/dangers-of-a-catholichospitaluntold.html


. . . . .



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So many things are galling about Phoenix Bishop Thomas J. Olmsted's excommunication of Sister Margaret McBride, a member of St. Joseph's Hospital Ethics Committee, for approving the termination of the life-threatening, 11-week-old pregnancy of a 27-year-old mother of four that it's hard to know where to begin. But surely one of the most urgent issues this case raises is the danger faced by any woman who sets foot in a Catholic hospital in the midst of a reproductive crisis.

Just to recap, late last year a critically-ill pregnant woman was brought into St. Joseph's suffering from pulmonary hypertension. Her pregnancy posed such a burden to her heart and lungs that carrying it to term almost certainly would have killed her. Sister Margaret approved the decision of the physicians, the patient, and her family to terminate the pregnancy.

When Olmsted learned that this procedure had taken place, all hell broke loose. Without a scintilla of empathy or sympathy for the dying woman and her family, Olmsted said: "The direct killing of an unborn child is always immoral, no matter the circumstances." Since the abortion was not "indirect" (i.e., the byproduct of another procedure necessary to save the mother's life, such as removing a cancerous uterus), the correct moral action, according to Olmsted and the Phoenix diocese, was this: Let the mother and the fetus die.

We do not know how often such decisions come up in Catholic hospitals. Nor do we know if any go the other way -- that is, the beliefs of the Olmsteds of the Church prevail and discharge is followed by a funeral. What we do know is that Catholic hospitals, charged with abiding by the Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Care Services, pose a real danger to women's health and lives.

"One of the most troubling areas is in the treatment of reproductive emergencies," says Lois Uttley, director of the MergerWatch Project, which works with communities facing Catholic-non-Catholic hospital mergers to preserve reproductive health services. A miscarriage in progress is an example of the emergencies Uttley is referencing. When it happens so early in pregnancy that the fetus cannot survive, the pregnancy has to be terminated quickly. Unfortunately, explains Uttley, in some Catholic hospitals, this isn't what happens; the fetal heartbeat has to stop before doctors can do the procedure.

. . . .

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/angela-bonavoglia/reproductive-crisis-do-no_b_602086.html

Its taken me a while to get to the third article.

The underlying issues don't surprise me. I guess i assumed they had already been taken to court over the issues, and would have lost.

It definitely needs to be addressed.

Oh, yes, let's just. When power is incorporated by men who have it due to their historically evil ways, well, so what? Here's what:


Who's worse, the Church or the mafia?

- Who has killed more people?

- Who forces people to do things, vs. offering them the chance to do things?
No mafioso is forcing men to gamble, do drugs, or have sex with prostitutes. That is all choice. But
what about people in the Church? Well, the church has a power over them, called the power of
excommunication. People fall for this. It is a reality to them. People don't leave the church because
they will fall into the 'pit of hell', or some other psychological carnality. This, to my way of thinking,
is a living course of evil. It is one they perpetuate. It has always given them power, and it will until
people outgrow it.

The Church, quakerboy, is worse than the mafia and their drug runners and numbers rackets. They will NEVER catch up to the body count of the Church. They are small players in the scheme of things.

The Church excommunicated itself from the teachings of Jesus with their first murder, and they have a long, long, way to go to getting it back together. I'm not impressed.

I said I would prefer the pope to deal with the immediate issues of people being mistreated by the Catholic church NOW before he spends time or effort dealing with the people who were harmed by the church in the moderately to distant past and whom have been dead for some years.

The Catholic Church has been a damnably corrupt institution, arguably since it was invented, and definitively when it first became a state religion. They have a lot to try and apologize for, and a lot that they can not possibly make right. But I think the focus should be on those who are harmed today. The dead can wait, they will still be dead. Making positive change for the living, in my book, means a hell of a lot more.

is showing courage in dealing with living crime figures.

and finding current time acts of truth and justice wanting because of them every American on this board is guilty too because of the treatment of Native Americans in this country over the last 500 years. That includes women, slaves, etc. It is possible to admire the actions of a man trying to reform an organization that has a long history of bad behavior because he is acknowledging something wrong and taking action.

There are some on this board that are uptight with the pope because it isn't everything all at once now.

So far America hasn't done anything about the two wars and their lying instigators, the treatment of minorities over 500 years, the treatment of women and children over 10,000 years, the genocide of First Nation people over 500 years.

If we do, does that lessen our efforts now because of things then? I don't think anyone in this country can nay say what he's trying to do moving a tradition bound leviathon because our own hands are as dirty as everyone else including every church out there. There isn't a country in the world that can claim moral superiority over anyone else who tries to do something good. IMO.

And don't forget, everyone, including Ratzinger need to go to prison.

Of course, since the Church is essentially organized crime, are you also excommunicating yourself? Fraud is a felony, and shaking doen a biiloion people is pretty good definition of organized crime. And by fraud, I mean they cannot prove they can provide the services they claim. This ism prosecuted for every other business that doesn't have Jesus in the title

Showed me, with your stunning, well thought out arguementbyouve

So please, tell me when God showed up up to,prove the Catholic Church is it's anointed and confirm they can provide what they promise.

That would be never

Tell me the number of Cathokic officials sent to jail for their organized rate rings.

That would be zero.

When the Pope says something, and people say, "Oh, I can't give him credit for it because he did not say <X>, which is on my agenda." Or, in this particular case, an ignorant anti-Catholic diatribe, which basically says "Unless they can prove the tenets of the Catholic faith, Catholicism is a fraud."

What whiners.

it, the primary punishment in rcc excommunication is that the person is not allowed to perform any ministerial functions, and, depending on the nature of the excom, not allowed to receive the sacraments. I am certain this is an incredible hardship for those guys.

and, unless there is a membership list of this group, who figures out who is excom'ed?

No sacraments of any kind and you're not allowed to be involved in any church activities
They send out notices to the Diocese and parish of those excommunicated informing the Bishops and priests who the person is and why
My guess is, in the internet age, there is a place that has all the excommunicated listed in case the person decides to move

Excommunication latae sententiae is automatic excommunication, incurred at the moment of the prohibited act. Francis essentially put the members of organized crime on notice that if they persist they are excommunicating themselves.

Excommunication ferendae sententiae is excommunication by a Church tribunal for a particularly notorious act or pattern of conduct. It is a public excommunication and much rarer than the other.

Anyone who is excommunicated is barred from any Church office but remains free to attend Church functions including Mass. That person may only receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession) or the Sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick (Last Rites).

Latae sententiae can be lifted simply by going to Confession with a priest. Ferendae sententiae excommunication can only be lifted by the tribunal that imposed it, usually the diocesan bishop, or less frequently, by the Pope.

but only if you are truly repentant of your sin/action.

Absolution is not automatic

The mafia will now have to use the Google cash cleaning and hiding scheme.

when it really needs to be hacked down and the roots drilled out.

I'd see in the news these big Catholic funerals for mafioso, followed by burial in a Catholic cemetery.

There's a lovely Catholic church in Bensonhurst which has, on its apse behind the altar, a huge painting of the Blessed Virgin Mary rising up to heaven on a cloud surrounded by angels. In the corner of the mural is a picture of a man in a dark suit. The man was a noted mafioso who apparently felt he could buy his way out of eternal damnation by giving vast sums of his ill-gotten gains to the church. Needless to say the bishop did nothing to discourage this notion.

In these Italian-American communities, as presumably in Sicily where most of these people came from, the church and the Mafia were quite close. I knew a librarian who once got a visit from a local priest. The priest said he had complaints about a book one of his parishioners saw on the shelf. The book was the "Christopher Street Reader", a rather straightforward if not dull history of the gay rights movement which had a picture of a nicely toned man, naked from the waist up on the cover. She showed the priest the book and encouraged him to read it. He did and agreed that in his opinion there was nothing objectionable in the content--the problem was that the lady who had complained was not going to come to the same conclusion and neither was her son, Carmine Persico, a major organized crime figure--the librarian decided that it was better to keep the book in her office.

I suppose that the priests and bishops told themselves that the Mafiosi they buried had really and truly repented and if they didn't the money these guys give to the church would tend to ease any qualms they might have.

Pope Francis, coming from a different part of the world may not understand this particular cultural phenomena and all I can say is Good for him! I suppose that there are many priests and bishops in Italy (and in Brooklyn) who are not feeling particularly comfortable these days.

as something less than fully autonomous human beings. but hey, the pr is great.

It won't make much difference. And well - where arethe other folks. What? Camorra doesn't exist?

>>>> Pope John Paul lambasted the Sicilian Mafia in 1993. >>>>

but I don't really care. This guy is moving in the right direction. He can't come in and do everything we want on day one. Heck, he won't do everything we want period. But if you can't take a step back and see the direction he's moving and the good that will come of his reign then you're just hard headed or angry in general. And I say all of that not even being a Catholic.

first bankers, now mafia. Too many powerful enemies and I worry for this pope's life. I'm glad he has the courage to speak out on these issues. Hoping this will be an inspiration to others.

Some at Georgetown University have made some very strong statements about Ryan and his lack of compassion for the poor and disabled.