Russia warns Europe over re-selling gas to Ukraine
Source: Washington Post / AP
MOSCOW Russias state-controlled gas company, Gazprom, says it could limit supplies to European customers that intend to re-sell the natural gas on to Ukraine.
Gazproms CEO Alexei Miller said Friday that the company is closely monitoring the situation and may curb shipments to European nations that would pump the Russian gas to Ukraine in the so-called reverse supplies, which he has described as a half-fraudulent scheme. He wouldnt name any specific countries.
Gazprom this month cut gas shipments to Ukraine amid a debt and pricing dispute. Supplies to Europe via Ukraine and other pipelines havent been affected, however. Ukraine has sought to counter the Russian move by trying to negotiate gas supplies from other European countries that buy Russian gas.
Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/russia-warns-europe-over-re-selling-gas-to-ukraine/2014/06/27/f5c47b0a-fdff-11e3-91c4-01dcd9b73086_story.html
half-fraudulent scheme. may refer to gas not reaching actual point of sale - never actually leaving Ukraine , property of Gazrom and hence theft.
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts).
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)you lectured people here to read RT.com so that they would not think the Russian anti-gay laws are as bad as they are.
YES you did that.
You own that and everything you've been posting to support Russia has put that statement in context.
here's where you lectured a poster who criticized the Russian anti-gay laws:
10. Exactly what Russia has done here.
http://rt.com/news/russia-gay-law-myths-951/
And that about the 3rd time that's been posted here on DU to separate fact from fiction.
http://upload.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=559235
DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)snooper2
(30,151 posts)William769
(55,124 posts)giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)William769
(55,124 posts)greatauntoftriplets
(175,692 posts)tells you a lot about him. And it isn't good.
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)greatauntoftriplets
(175,692 posts)10. Exactly what Russia has done here.
http://rt.com/news/russia-gay-law-myths-951/
And that about the 3rd time that's been posted here on DU to separate fact from fiction.
DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)- Still no comment from the White House.
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)everyone who doesn't think like you do must be an asshole even though he/she may be enforcing standard commercial conventions.
Do you know that it is illegal to resell hundreds of American products from one country to another and they have to be consumed by the original purchaser?
William769
(55,124 posts)Still makes him an asshole.
this thread is not about the LGBT situation.
Once an asshole always an asshole. And maybe it should. Since LGBT Russians can't stand up for themselves, I will speak for them wherever I damn well please.
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)in front of your house.
I hate Russia's LGBT policy too but I won't hijack every thread to discuss it.
William769
(55,124 posts)Yes I am relentless in my endeavor to keep the plight of the Russian LGBT community at the forefront.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)and on the wrong side of the fight for the rights of the LGBT community, you shouldn't let that blind you to the fact that he's simply reacting to US/EU economic aggression in their quest to incorporate the Ukrainians into their sphere of influence.
A thinking person should be able to see aspects of agreement and disagreement if those conditions exist. For instance, even though we all know Neil Cavuto is a pompous conservative, I think we were all in agreement with him when he was telling Michelle Bachman that she's stupid and would get laughed out of the building.
On a personal level, I abhor Ron Paul because of his domestic policy stances and the fact that he is like a flame to a lot of far-right wingers in this country, but I happen to agree with his views on foreign policy (an end to meddling in the internal affairs of other countries, stopping unnecessary warring). On a thread concerning Paul and foreign policy, I'd probably agree with him, but on a thread on his domestic policy I'd be throwing him under the bus.
William769
(55,124 posts)That's where my focus is and if something else falls between the crack so be it.
You will see my record on DU about Equal rights/human rights, I go where ever there is a problem and damn everything else.
If someone can't speak for their freedom, rest assured, I'll be there.
And yes Putin needs to fix this problem above all else. Everything else is moot.
Once again here's the link http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025158340 nothing else matters.
Anarcho-Socialist
(9,601 posts)Homophobia has been on the rise in Ukraine. A 2013 GFK Ukraine study showed that 80 percent of those polled had negative attitudes towards gay people. That's at least 8 percent more than the previous year. In another 2013 poll by the Ukrainian Gay Alliance NGO and the Ukrainian State Sociology Institute, 63 percent of surveyed Ukrainians said homosexuality is a perversion or mental disease; only 9 percent supported same-sex marriages. And post-revolution Ukraine does not seem to be much better for LGBT Ukrainians.
First, many open homophobes are still among the countrys top-officials. Interim President Oleksandr Turchynov (also a Baptist preacher) famously said, back in 2007, If a man has normal views, then you label him a conservative, but those who use drugs or promote sodomyyou label them a progressive person. All of these are perversions. Several leaders from the far-right Ukrainian nationalist party, Svoboda, have been given ministerial posts in the post-revolution government, including the vice-prime minister position. In fairness, Svoboda has toned down its anti-gay rhetoric in recent months. One of the partys MPs, Yuriy Syrotyuk, called the first gay pride parade in Kiev an act of aggression against Ukraine in 2012, but now presents a more moderate, if still limited, position. We respect rights of all minorities, but LGBT legalization will blow up this country, he stated in an interview. If we take this discussion to the parliament, not only Crimea will secede, but Ukrainian provinces will also start to leave the country.
The new government is also actively trying to block an anti-discrimination law that would protect LGBT people in workplaces. This piece of legislation, pushed as part of integration talks with EU is, frankly, the only progressive thing to happen for the local gay community since 1991, when Ukraine became the first post-Soviet country to decriminalize homosexuality. (Some opponents of the law argue that support for it would give Russia a cart-blanche; in the past, the Kremlin has showed amazing capabilities to organize quickly and effectively against any kind of gay movement inside Ukraine.) Now, a law similar to the Russians "gay propaganda" lawwhich criminalizes even discussion of gay rightsis pending in the Ukrainian parliament.
A wave of recent violence against gay people in Ukraine has underlined how precarious the situation is for LGBT activists. During January and February, far-right revolutionary fighters attacked a famous gay club in Kiev five times. The owners didnt want to go public with the story, afraid of more attacks and allegations of being unpatriotic or Kremlin provocateurs, so they just closed the place down. Nearby luxury boutiques were left untouched. Here is footage from the vandalized club, which the owners posted on YouTube following my request:
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117170/lgbt-rights-sidelined-after-ukrainian-revolution
Cha
(295,899 posts)their little hero..
Clinton says Putins actions are like what Hitler did back in the 30s
"Making her first extensive comments about the crisis in Ukraine, Clinton said at a private fundraiser in California that Putin's campaign to provide Russian passports to those with Russian connections living outside his country's borders is reminiscent of Hitler's protection of ethnic Germans outside Germany, according to a report published overnight.
"Now if this sounds familiar, it's what Hitler did back in the '30s," Clinton said Tuesday, according to the Long Beach Press-Telegram. "All the Germans that were ... the ethnic Germans, the Germans by ancestry who were in places like Czechoslovakia and Romania and other places, Hitler kept saying they're not being treated right. I must go and protect my people, and that's what's gotten everybody so nervous."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2014/03/05/hillary-clinton-says-putins-action-are-like-what-hitler-did-back-in-the-30s/
Those cheering putin on are rooting for a Homophobic/Internet-Russian Media Suppressing asshole..
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117001/russias-putin-cracks-down-media-when-we-need-journalism-most
Whereas the EU is not cracking down on Human Rights with anti-Gay laws like the freaking asshole, putin...
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)... but this is clearly about Putin wanting to maintain his boot on the necks of the Ukrainians. They dared to defy him, and must be made to pay.
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)countries are different?
Jingoism at its finest.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)So, you support Putin leveraging gas supplies in order to force Ukrainian subservience?
And what, exactly, did I post that was Jingoistic? I think you're just building a straw man.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)for fuel they've already received.
Does your local power company let you keep your lights on if you've skipped three months of payments?
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)... but this isn't really about money, and never has been. It's about Putin wanting to re-establish a Russia-centered empire.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)back into Russia, don't you think he would have just sent the troops he had on the border to Kiev?
Putin, like the leader of almost every country that was once a world power, wants to regain some of the prestige the "world power" status entails, but Russia hasn't been sweeping through the former Soviet republics and taking them over.
For Gazprom, this is indeed about the money, and for Putin, sticking it to a neighbor who rejected closer ties to his country. He's definitely playing hardball with the new Ukrainian government right now and it's most likely going to take a while before relations between those two countries mend any.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)for the invasion and annexation of a portion of a sovereign nation they had a signed agreement with on territorial integrity for the removal of Ukraine's nuclear weapons. Not to mention all of the state owned military property it illegally blockaded, stormed and and confiscated illegally under international law.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)also required foreign powers (i.e., the US and EU) to refrain from meddling in the affairs of Ukraine in order to bend them to their wishes.
The US trampled right over that part of it by supporting the coup that took place - that was the original sin. Yes, Russia violated their part of the agreement by annexing a willing Crimea, but why should they honor an agreement that was already null and void?
Cha
(295,899 posts)jack-booting.
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)He cutoff gas supplies to an entire country not a bunch of IPod knockoffs. There is a bit of difference there but nice try on your use of logic, better luck next time.
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)The deadline and grace period and cutoff warning expired.
Try not paying your nice gentlemanly utility for a month or two and see how fast they cut you off.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Frankly, Ukraine probably needs to do all it can to cut it self free of that Tyrant.
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)there tab in full & now prepay for gas. Ukraine is disputing the price of bill & the fact that now all of a sudden they want it prepaid instead of the normal practice. When they were cutoff they had to look elsewhere for the product it's called survival.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)Russia didn't suddenly do anything. Warnings about non payment of debt go back months.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)It is not in the interests of the EU to disturb in any way , shape or form gas supplies from Russia.
The alternative to Russia's gas is reckoned to be an eventual doubling of gas prices in Europe. Such a price change would be appreciated neither by industry nor the public. That is an easy subject to search but sample link here anyway http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-28/europe-seen-paying-twice-as-much-to-replace-russian-gas.html That is the change which would affect the economics of sourcing and shipping LNG by supertanker worldwide - hence the USA's selfish interest in the subject.
The EU's only issue with Russia on the subject of gas relates to Ukraine itself , for the time being and who as far as I'm concerned are just being a nuisance by stringing out negotiations on a fresh contract. The EU have already said that the average price of Russian gas supplies to Europe of $380-390 would be fair but Ukraine is rejecting associated volume and time period clauses in the contract. I suppose one possible outcome could be that actual direct supplies to Ukraine are ceased permanently and reverse feeds officially allowed. That would at least ensure they paid for what they used.
1monster
(11,012 posts)Putin is not just cutting off the Ukraine from Russian company sales of gas, he's trying to cut off Ukraine from buying it elsewhere too.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)Since the US/EU alliance wanted Ukraine so bad, they need to step up and provide for their newly-minted client state.
Maybe the US Congress can enact a new tax on taxpayers to help the Ukrainians by gas and other supplies? I'm sure you'd be willing to contribute to that right?
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)preventing Ukraine from having super tanker deliveries of LNG to the Black Sea. How they would distribute it is a different matter.
pampango
(24,692 posts)pay for gas. Either way - "austerity" is the end result. Either way average Ukrainians (who may pay their bills as expected) get a big dose of 'austerity'.
One could make the case that Russia owes Ukraine quite a bit for the Ukrainian assets they 'acquired' in Crimea. If Ukraine were willing to recognize Russia's takeover in Crimea perhaps they could work out a financial deal that balance the gas debt against the value of Ukrainian assets in Crimea.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)and also related to contract length.
Its such an agreement which Ukraine is currently trying to avoid.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)With a few exceptions such as downloaded copyrighted works?
What products were you referring to?
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)This only became an issue because they didn't get their way in terms of who is running another country.
Why are you defending this?
MynameisBlarney
(2,979 posts)with Putin and Russia.
And North Korea too.
Fuck 'em!
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)including restrictions on onward selling.
Its like all contracts - don't sign if you don't agree.
cprise
(8,445 posts)Now that would be interesting.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)Germany is cheapest Europe but I doubt any would come from there. Slovakia may supply at cost but are limited on how much they can supply. Also depends on what you mean by market price.
cprise
(8,445 posts)is what I mean.
It always seems that whenever western media talk of using gas prices to influence Ukraine, comparative (or any at all) pricing is completely absent.
Now, if the NATO countries effectively subsidized Ukraine's access to gas, that would also amount to wielding political influence.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)because its otherwise unikely the average price for the EU could be c.$380 or so.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)make sure you post the strongest defense of Russia that you possibly can.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)snooper2
(30,151 posts)In our Soviet Russia Hug Bears You!
Xolodno
(6,330 posts)....France can buy sophisticated military electronics from the USA. But once they sell said electronics say to China or North Korea....the USA is going to cut that off real fast and sue under international contract law.
Russia, can dictate under contract how and who uses its products.
karynnj
(59,474 posts)Is this a new "gentleman's agreement"? That they can buy it only if they agree not to resell it? Is the actual point of sale when the European government pay for it or when it arrives in their country? Not to mention, the reverse supplies actually sent the gas to country A and then sent it back to Ukraine.
This is just Russia trying to be able to have control over Ukraine by being able to threaten cutting off gas -- a pretty deadly threat mid winter.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)Nothing to do with gentlemen's agreements.
Ukraine has not had its gas cut off anyway other than by refusing to pay for it.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)That is what businesses do on a daily basis, buy low and sell for more elsewhere. Not that I'm in love with those added costs, in many cases for no value added.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)In this case its a bi-product of different price structures across Europe. Gazprom sells on that basis and countries not agreeing to those terms are welcome to go elsewhere - LNG from Statoil for example @ c. $405 / 1000 cu metres. Ukraine could do the same.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)Naftogaz asking EC for major gas reverse flow from Slovakia http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/naftogaz-asking-ec-for-major-gas-reverse-flow-from-slovakia-352096.html not sure who EC refers too
Sending Russian gas east to Ukraine 'could be illegal' http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_analysis/2363652/russia_ukraine_eu_tied_by_gas_dependency.html wherein you will find that the issue is one internal to Ukraine / Naftogas regarding direction of flow.
Slovakia wants guarantees before reversing gas to Ukraine http://www.euractiv.com/sections/energy/slovakia-wants-guarantees-reversing-gas-ukraine-301507
freshwest
(53,661 posts)karynnj
(59,474 posts)Oil is a huge part of their economy. If they cut off all of Europe, they need to sell the oil somewhere else. The question is whether China or any other part of the world can purchase the volume Europe uses. If Europe stands together, Russia is very unlikely to want to suffer the consequences. However, it could be nerve wracking if specific countries are targeted.
elleng
(130,126 posts)DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)...but you won't pay your bills. On top of that, you demand I cut the price of what you already bought at discount prices and say you won't pay anything of what you owe until I do. So I cut off your supplies that you're storing for winter now, because you ain't paying.
So now you want to give some money to your cousin in France to buy the gas you need from me for him.
And your cousin says they'll do it, for a cut for buying it for you.
But I'm still out of the money you owe.
- Yeah, it's theft.
elleng
(130,126 posts)but you won't pay your bills' = theft. On top of that, further aggravating facts.
DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)In the real world, it's all connected to the same thing.
Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)That's something we used to say in the Army.
ErikJ
(6,335 posts)Proving that those with the (black) gold make the rules. I hope this is a lesson for Europe and the rest of the world to triple their renewable energy sources and get the hell off that crap.
pampango
(24,692 posts)the EU - a more liberal, gay-rights supportive entity with the best income equality in the world.
Cha
(295,899 posts)the EU - a more liberal, gay-rights supportive entity with the best income equality in the world."
DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)...dronophillac one here, as well. {Yeah I know, it was Congress' fault}
- And the EU after the right's surprise in the last elections, seems to becoming the EU-Turn.....
The overreach of The Oligarchs will be their undoing......
pampango
(24,692 posts)than anything in Russia or the US. I hope the conservative (austerity) mindset has proven itself to be a failure (as FDR recognized in 1937) and the EU will return to its roots.
I agree that the far-right's electoral success last month is worrying. Their affinity for Putin and his foreign and domestic policies is not a good sign for the future irrespective of the future of Ukraine.
Louisiana1976
(3,962 posts)DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)[center][/center]
- ''When you spend most of your money on hammers you tend to see all problems as nails.''
[center]
[/center]
- ''The only way to cure Military Measles is to withhold nourishment until the spots fall off.''
Monk06
(7,675 posts)the EU decides to take over the subsidy for Ukrainian gas that Russia has been supplying.
The problem is the Ukraine is run by it's own gangsters who have been stealing gas from Russia for ten years (Timeschenko) and not even paying their bills.
Also there is only one line that can reverse flow into the Ukraine and that line is in Belarus.
Fuck, the US and the EU are so stupid.
Russia just signed an pipeline agreement with China. Five years and those pipes will be exporting oil east and the Ukraine will be selling wheat, women and stolen Escalades.