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dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 10:09 AM Jun 2014

Russia warns Europe over re-selling gas to Ukraine

Source: Washington Post / AP

MOSCOW — Russia’s state-controlled gas company, Gazprom, says it could limit supplies to European customers that intend to re-sell the natural gas on to Ukraine.

Gazprom’s CEO Alexei Miller said Friday that the company is closely monitoring the situation and may curb shipments to European nations that would pump the Russian gas to Ukraine in the so-called reverse supplies, which he has described as a “half-fraudulent scheme.” He wouldn’t name any specific countries.

Gazprom this month cut gas shipments to Ukraine amid a debt and pricing dispute. Supplies to Europe via Ukraine and other pipelines haven’t been affected, however. Ukraine has sought to counter the Russian move by trying to negotiate gas supplies from other European countries that buy Russian gas.

Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/russia-warns-europe-over-re-selling-gas-to-ukraine/2014/06/27/f5c47b0a-fdff-11e3-91c4-01dcd9b73086_story.html



“half-fraudulent scheme.” may refer to gas not reaching actual point of sale - never actually leaving Ukraine , property of Gazrom and hence theft.
78 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Russia warns Europe over re-selling gas to Ukraine (Original Post) dipsydoodle Jun 2014 OP
He's an asshole. giftedgirl77 Jun 2014 #1
Seemingly many Ukrainians are so too. dipsydoodle Jun 2014 #2
actually you defended the anti-LGBT law in Russia CreekDog Jun 2014 #51
+1000 DeSwiss Jun 2014 #58
so is North Korea your ideal system of government, or somewhere between that and Russia? snooper2 Jun 2014 #71
Putin’s Anti-LGBT Law Turns One William769 Jun 2014 #3
Yes I know, kinda part of why I called him an asshole... giftedgirl77 Jun 2014 #4
... William769 Jun 2014 #5
The fact that GW Bush could look into his eyes and say he trusted Putin... greatauntoftriplets Jun 2014 #21
Very true, the guy is evil. giftedgirl77 Jun 2014 #23
Both of them, IMO. greatauntoftriplets Jun 2014 #26
. CreekDog Jun 2014 #52
And Abdulrahman al-Awlaki's murder will three years old in October..... DeSwiss Jun 2014 #59
mmmm hmmmm cosmicone Jun 2014 #6
What's your point? William769 Jun 2014 #8
how? cosmicone Jun 2014 #9
So. William769 Jun 2014 #13
burn a russian flag or putin's effigy cosmicone Jun 2014 #15
I will, if someone is trying to give putin any type of praise fo any of his policies. William769 Jun 2014 #19
While Putin is most certainly a homophobe nyabingi Jun 2014 #30
Here's the bottom line Equal rights/human rights trumps all. No if's and's or' but's about it. William769 Jun 2014 #44
What do you think about LGBT rights in Ukraine? Anarcho-Socialist Jun 2014 #56
"burn a russian flag or putin's effigy".. stupid advice I think I'll bring up Hillary's quote on Cha Jun 2014 #49
Might be technically true.... Adrahil Jun 2014 #10
and American sanctions against dozens of cosmicone Jun 2014 #12
Interesting response. Adrahil Jun 2014 #16
I think Ukraine owes Russia quite a bit of money nyabingi Jun 2014 #31
Like I said, I think that's fair enough... Adrahil Jun 2014 #45
If Putin wanted to reincorporate the whole of Ukraine nyabingi Jun 2014 #78
And Russia owes a lot of money to Ukraine Duckhunter935 Jun 2014 #54
I think a part of the agreement in which you speak nyabingi Jun 2014 #77
Yes, "interesting response".. it's called distraction so we won't notice what their hero Putin is Cha Jun 2014 #50
Putin doesn't think like a lot of people... giftedgirl77 Jun 2014 #11
they were not paying for the gas cosmicone Jun 2014 #14
Fine, then cut them off. Adrahil Jun 2014 #18
Bullshit, Russia decided it was suddenly going to require giftedgirl77 Jun 2014 #20
I assume that's joke dipsydoodle Jun 2014 #39
Dipsy, this is about MORE than gas payments, and I think you know it. NT Adrahil Jun 2014 #46
Yes but the subject of the OP is the reselling of Russian gas. dipsydoodle Jun 2014 #47
They may cut me off, but they can't prevent me from buying propane elsewhere. 1monster Jun 2014 #28
He's trying to keep them from buying nyabingi Jun 2014 #33
There is nothing whatsoever dipsydoodle Jun 2014 #40
The West cuts you off if you don't pay for the money you borrow. Russia cuts you off if you don't pampango Jun 2014 #37
In this case its the individual contracts for EU countries based on their price/volume agreements dipsydoodle Jun 2014 #17
Generally, once you have bought something you can do whatever you like with it. Nye Bevan Jun 2014 #22
Russia wasn't "enforcing standard commercial conventions" while their toady was in power in Ukraine stevenleser Jun 2014 #76
To hell MynameisBlarney Jun 2014 #7
If someone buys gas from Russia, surely they can do whatever they like with it. (nt) Nye Bevan Jun 2014 #24
Subject to supply terms dipsydoodle Jun 2014 #25
Is the re-sale below market prices? cprise Jun 2014 #35
Depends on source dipsydoodle Jun 2014 #38
The average price west of the urals cprise Jun 2014 #41
For that area I assume c.$400 dipsydoodle Jun 2014 #42
just whatever you do CreekDog Jun 2014 #55
Ad hominem attacks take the place of real arguments. Comrade Grumpy Jun 2014 #70
COMRADE I missed you! Give me a big bear hug! snooper2 Jun 2014 #72
Doesn't work that way in international trade.... Xolodno Jun 2014 #27
As soon as it is paid for, I think it is no longer Gazrom's property karynnj Jun 2014 #29
Its a conditition of the supply contract. dipsydoodle Jun 2014 #34
They said it couldn't be used as they please? I get the market rigging aspect. But once sold, nope. freshwest Jun 2014 #67
There are other examples above of goods which cannot be onward sold as per contract terms. dipsydoodle Jun 2014 #68
More here. dipsydoodle Jun 2014 #74
That was my impression, too. This is a threat to Europe, too, no? freshwest Jun 2014 #66
yes, but it may be a threat Russia really can't do karynnj Jun 2014 #69
Surely not 'theft' if its paid for. elleng Jun 2014 #32
You owe me money for gas I sold you..... DeSwiss Jun 2014 #60
'You owe me money for gas I sold you elleng Jun 2014 #73
Legal terms maybe. DeSwiss Jun 2014 #75
Hey, Alexei and Vladimor: FOAD Jack Rabbit Jun 2014 #36
HA! Russia has Europe by the balls ErikJ Jun 2014 #43
Hard to root for the conservative, homophobic government with terrible income inequality over pampango Jun 2014 #48
Well said, pampango.. Cha Jun 2014 #57
Hard to root for the conservative, unemployment benefit and food stamp cutting..... DeSwiss Jun 2014 #61
Despite the recent conservative (they never sleep) turn in the EU, the safety net is still stronger pampango Jun 2014 #63
Russia should mind its own beeswax. Louisiana1976 Jun 2014 #53
You were saying something about minding one's own business? DeSwiss Jun 2014 #62
Russia will just raise the price which will have to be passed on to the Ukraine unless Monk06 Jun 2014 #64
Typical Russian: the supplier threatens the customer:)) Shame on us that we not "understand" them.nt fireflysky46 Jun 2014 #65

CreekDog

(46,192 posts)
51. actually you defended the anti-LGBT law in Russia
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 09:13 PM
Jun 2014

you lectured people here to read RT.com so that they would not think the Russian anti-gay laws are as bad as they are.

YES you did that.

You own that and everything you've been posting to support Russia has put that statement in context.

here's where you lectured a poster who criticized the Russian anti-gay laws:

Star Member dipsydoodle (41,632 posts)
10. Exactly what Russia has done here.


http://rt.com/news/russia-gay-law-myths-951/

And that about the 3rd time that's been posted here on DU to separate fact from fiction.

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=559235


greatauntoftriplets

(175,692 posts)
21. The fact that GW Bush could look into his eyes and say he trusted Putin...
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 11:11 AM
Jun 2014

tells you a lot about him. And it isn't good.

CreekDog

(46,192 posts)
52. .
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 09:17 PM
Jun 2014
Star Member dipsydoodle (41,632 posts)
10. Exactly what Russia has done here.

http://rt.com/news/russia-gay-law-myths-951/

And that about the 3rd time that's been posted here on DU to separate fact from fiction.




 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
59. And Abdulrahman al-Awlaki's murder will three years old in October.....
Sat Jun 28, 2014, 04:06 AM
Jun 2014


- Still no comment from the White House.
 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
6. mmmm hmmmm
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 10:40 AM
Jun 2014

everyone who doesn't think like you do must be an asshole even though he/she may be enforcing standard commercial conventions.

Do you know that it is illegal to resell hundreds of American products from one country to another and they have to be consumed by the original purchaser?

William769

(55,124 posts)
13. So.
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 10:46 AM
Jun 2014

Once an asshole always an asshole. And maybe it should. Since LGBT Russians can't stand up for themselves, I will speak for them wherever I damn well please.

 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
15. burn a russian flag or putin's effigy
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 10:51 AM
Jun 2014

in front of your house.

I hate Russia's LGBT policy too but I won't hijack every thread to discuss it.

William769

(55,124 posts)
19. I will, if someone is trying to give putin any type of praise fo any of his policies.
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 10:55 AM
Jun 2014

Yes I am relentless in my endeavor to keep the plight of the Russian LGBT community at the forefront.

nyabingi

(1,145 posts)
30. While Putin is most certainly a homophobe
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 12:12 PM
Jun 2014

and on the wrong side of the fight for the rights of the LGBT community, you shouldn't let that blind you to the fact that he's simply reacting to US/EU economic aggression in their quest to incorporate the Ukrainians into their sphere of influence.

A thinking person should be able to see aspects of agreement and disagreement if those conditions exist. For instance, even though we all know Neil Cavuto is a pompous conservative, I think we were all in agreement with him when he was telling Michelle Bachman that she's stupid and would get laughed out of the building.

On a personal level, I abhor Ron Paul because of his domestic policy stances and the fact that he is like a flame to a lot of far-right wingers in this country, but I happen to agree with his views on foreign policy (an end to meddling in the internal affairs of other countries, stopping unnecessary warring). On a thread concerning Paul and foreign policy, I'd probably agree with him, but on a thread on his domestic policy I'd be throwing him under the bus.

William769

(55,124 posts)
44. Here's the bottom line Equal rights/human rights trumps all. No if's and's or' but's about it.
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 02:31 PM
Jun 2014

That's where my focus is and if something else falls between the crack so be it.

You will see my record on DU about Equal rights/human rights, I go where ever there is a problem and damn everything else.

If someone can't speak for their freedom, rest assured, I'll be there.

And yes Putin needs to fix this problem above all else. Everything else is moot.

Once again here's the link http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025158340 nothing else matters.

Anarcho-Socialist

(9,601 posts)
56. What do you think about LGBT rights in Ukraine?
Sat Jun 28, 2014, 03:18 AM
Jun 2014


Homophobia has been on the rise in Ukraine. A 2013 GFK Ukraine study showed that 80 percent of those polled had negative attitudes towards gay people. That's at least 8 percent more than the previous year. In another 2013 poll by the Ukrainian Gay Alliance NGO and the Ukrainian State Sociology Institute, 63 percent of surveyed Ukrainians said homosexuality is a perversion or mental disease; only 9 percent supported same-sex marriages. And post-revolution Ukraine does not seem to be much better for LGBT Ukrainians.

First, many open homophobes are still among the country’s top-officials. Interim President Oleksandr Turchynov (also a Baptist preacher) famously said, back in 2007, “If a man has normal views, then you label him a conservative, but those who use drugs or promote sodomy—you label them a progressive person. All of these are perversions.” Several leaders from the far-right Ukrainian nationalist party, Svoboda, have been given ministerial posts in the post-revolution government, including the vice-prime minister position. In fairness, Svoboda has toned down its anti-gay rhetoric in recent months. One of the party’s MPs, Yuriy Syrotyuk, called the first gay pride parade in Kiev “an act of aggression” against Ukraine in 2012, but now presents a more moderate, if still limited, position. “We respect rights of all minorities, but LGBT legalization will blow up this country,” he stated in an interview. “If we take this discussion to the parliament, not only Crimea will secede, but Ukrainian provinces will also start to leave the country.”

The new government is also actively trying to block an anti-discrimination law that would protect LGBT people in workplaces. This piece of legislation, pushed as part of integration talks with EU is, frankly, the only progressive thing to happen for the local gay community since 1991, when Ukraine became the first post-Soviet country to decriminalize homosexuality. (Some opponents of the law argue that support for it would give Russia a cart-blanche; in the past, the Kremlin has showed amazing capabilities to organize quickly and effectively against any kind of gay movement inside Ukraine.) Now, a law similar to the Russian’s "gay propaganda" law—which criminalizes even discussion of gay rights—is pending in the Ukrainian parliament.

A wave of recent violence against gay people in Ukraine has underlined how precarious the situation is for LGBT activists. During January and February, far-right revolutionary fighters attacked a famous gay club in Kiev five times. The owners didn’t want to go public with the story, afraid of more attacks and allegations of being “unpatriotic” or “Kremlin provocateurs,” so they just closed the place down. Nearby luxury boutiques were left untouched. Here is footage from the vandalized club, which the owners posted on YouTube following my request:

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117170/lgbt-rights-sidelined-after-ukrainian-revolution

Cha

(295,899 posts)
49. "burn a russian flag or putin's effigy".. stupid advice I think I'll bring up Hillary's quote on
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 09:04 PM
Jun 2014

their little hero..

Clinton says Putin’s actions are like ‘what Hitler did back in the ’30s’

"Making her first extensive comments about the crisis in Ukraine, Clinton said at a private fundraiser in California that Putin's campaign to provide Russian passports to those with Russian connections living outside his country's borders is reminiscent of Hitler's protection of ethnic Germans outside Germany, according to a report published overnight.

"Now if this sounds familiar, it's what Hitler did back in the '30s," Clinton said Tuesday, according to the Long Beach Press-Telegram. "All the Germans that were ... the ethnic Germans, the Germans by ancestry who were in places like Czechoslovakia and Romania and other places, Hitler kept saying they're not being treated right. I must go and protect my people, and that's what's gotten everybody so nervous."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2014/03/05/hillary-clinton-says-putins-action-are-like-what-hitler-did-back-in-the-30s/

Those cheering putin on are rooting for a Homophobic/Internet-Russian Media Suppressing asshole..

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117001/russias-putin-cracks-down-media-when-we-need-journalism-most

Whereas the EU is not cracking down on Human Rights with anti-Gay laws like the freaking asshole, putin...

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
10. Might be technically true....
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 10:44 AM
Jun 2014

... but this is clearly about Putin wanting to maintain his boot on the necks of the Ukrainians. They dared to defy him, and must be made to pay.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
16. Interesting response.
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 10:52 AM
Jun 2014

So, you support Putin leveraging gas supplies in order to force Ukrainian subservience?

And what, exactly, did I post that was Jingoistic? I think you're just building a straw man.

nyabingi

(1,145 posts)
31. I think Ukraine owes Russia quite a bit of money
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 12:13 PM
Jun 2014

for fuel they've already received.

Does your local power company let you keep your lights on if you've skipped three months of payments?

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
45. Like I said, I think that's fair enough...
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 06:18 PM
Jun 2014

... but this isn't really about money, and never has been. It's about Putin wanting to re-establish a Russia-centered empire.

nyabingi

(1,145 posts)
78. If Putin wanted to reincorporate the whole of Ukraine
Sun Jun 29, 2014, 04:45 PM
Jun 2014

back into Russia, don't you think he would have just sent the troops he had on the border to Kiev?

Putin, like the leader of almost every country that was once a world power, wants to regain some of the prestige the "world power" status entails, but Russia hasn't been sweeping through the former Soviet republics and taking them over.

For Gazprom, this is indeed about the money, and for Putin, sticking it to a neighbor who rejected closer ties to his country. He's definitely playing hardball with the new Ukrainian government right now and it's most likely going to take a while before relations between those two countries mend any.

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
54. And Russia owes a lot of money to Ukraine
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 09:34 PM
Jun 2014

for the invasion and annexation of a portion of a sovereign nation they had a signed agreement with on territorial integrity for the removal of Ukraine's nuclear weapons. Not to mention all of the state owned military property it illegally blockaded, stormed and and confiscated illegally under international law.

nyabingi

(1,145 posts)
77. I think a part of the agreement in which you speak
Sun Jun 29, 2014, 04:40 PM
Jun 2014

also required foreign powers (i.e., the US and EU) to refrain from meddling in the affairs of Ukraine in order to bend them to their wishes.

The US trampled right over that part of it by supporting the coup that took place - that was the original sin. Yes, Russia violated their part of the agreement by annexing a willing Crimea, but why should they honor an agreement that was already null and void?

Cha

(295,899 posts)
50. Yes, "interesting response".. it's called distraction so we won't notice what their hero Putin is
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 09:06 PM
Jun 2014

jack-booting.

 

giftedgirl77

(4,713 posts)
11. Putin doesn't think like a lot of people...
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 10:46 AM
Jun 2014

He cutoff gas supplies to an entire country not a bunch of IPod knockoffs. There is a bit of difference there but nice try on your use of logic, better luck next time.

 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
14. they were not paying for the gas
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 10:48 AM
Jun 2014

The deadline and grace period and cutoff warning expired.

Try not paying your nice gentlemanly utility for a month or two and see how fast they cut you off.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
18. Fine, then cut them off.
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 10:53 AM
Jun 2014

Frankly, Ukraine probably needs to do all it can to cut it self free of that Tyrant.

 

giftedgirl77

(4,713 posts)
20. Bullshit, Russia decided it was suddenly going to require
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 11:04 AM
Jun 2014

there tab in full & now prepay for gas. Ukraine is disputing the price of bill & the fact that now all of a sudden they want it prepaid instead of the normal practice. When they were cutoff they had to look elsewhere for the product it's called survival.

dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
39. I assume that's joke
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 01:39 PM
Jun 2014

Russia didn't suddenly do anything. Warnings about non payment of debt go back months.

dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
47. Yes but the subject of the OP is the reselling of Russian gas.
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 07:34 PM
Jun 2014

It is not in the interests of the EU to disturb in any way , shape or form gas supplies from Russia.

The alternative to Russia's gas is reckoned to be an eventual doubling of gas prices in Europe. Such a price change would be appreciated neither by industry nor the public. That is an easy subject to search but sample link here anyway http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-28/europe-seen-paying-twice-as-much-to-replace-russian-gas.html That is the change which would affect the economics of sourcing and shipping LNG by supertanker worldwide - hence the USA's selfish interest in the subject.

The EU's only issue with Russia on the subject of gas relates to Ukraine itself , for the time being and who as far as I'm concerned are just being a nuisance by stringing out negotiations on a fresh contract. The EU have already said that the average price of Russian gas supplies to Europe of $380-390 would be fair but Ukraine is rejecting associated volume and time period clauses in the contract. I suppose one possible outcome could be that actual direct supplies to Ukraine are ceased permanently and reverse feeds officially allowed. That would at least ensure they paid for what they used.

1monster

(11,012 posts)
28. They may cut me off, but they can't prevent me from buying propane elsewhere.
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 11:42 AM
Jun 2014

Putin is not just cutting off the Ukraine from Russian company sales of gas, he's trying to cut off Ukraine from buying it elsewhere too.

nyabingi

(1,145 posts)
33. He's trying to keep them from buying
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 12:17 PM
Jun 2014
Russian gas from somewhere else through the backdoor.

Since the US/EU alliance wanted Ukraine so bad, they need to step up and provide for their newly-minted client state.

Maybe the US Congress can enact a new tax on taxpayers to help the Ukrainians by gas and other supplies? I'm sure you'd be willing to contribute to that right?

dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
40. There is nothing whatsoever
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 01:50 PM
Jun 2014

preventing Ukraine from having super tanker deliveries of LNG to the Black Sea. How they would distribute it is a different matter.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
37. The West cuts you off if you don't pay for the money you borrow. Russia cuts you off if you don't
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 12:55 PM
Jun 2014

pay for gas. Either way - "austerity" is the end result. Either way average Ukrainians (who may pay their bills as expected) get a big dose of 'austerity'.

One could make the case that Russia owes Ukraine quite a bit for the Ukrainian assets they 'acquired' in Crimea. If Ukraine were willing to recognize Russia's takeover in Crimea perhaps they could work out a financial deal that balance the gas debt against the value of Ukrainian assets in Crimea.

dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
17. In this case its the individual contracts for EU countries based on their price/volume agreements
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 10:53 AM
Jun 2014

and also related to contract length.

Its such an agreement which Ukraine is currently trying to avoid.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
22. Generally, once you have bought something you can do whatever you like with it.
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 11:12 AM
Jun 2014

With a few exceptions such as downloaded copyrighted works?

What products were you referring to?

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
76. Russia wasn't "enforcing standard commercial conventions" while their toady was in power in Ukraine
Sun Jun 29, 2014, 01:40 PM
Jun 2014

This only became an issue because they didn't get their way in terms of who is running another country.

Why are you defending this?

dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
25. Subject to supply terms
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 11:19 AM
Jun 2014

including restrictions on onward selling.

Its like all contracts - don't sign if you don't agree.

dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
38. Depends on source
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 01:32 PM
Jun 2014

Germany is cheapest Europe but I doubt any would come from there. Slovakia may supply at cost but are limited on how much they can supply. Also depends on what you mean by market price.

cprise

(8,445 posts)
41. The average price west of the urals
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 01:54 PM
Jun 2014

is what I mean.

It always seems that whenever western media talk of using gas prices to influence Ukraine, comparative (or any at all) pricing is completely absent.

Now, if the NATO countries effectively subsidized Ukraine's access to gas, that would also amount to wielding political influence.

dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
42. For that area I assume c.$400
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 02:05 PM
Jun 2014

because its otherwise unikely the average price for the EU could be c.$380 or so.

Xolodno

(6,330 posts)
27. Doesn't work that way in international trade....
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 11:38 AM
Jun 2014

....France can buy sophisticated military electronics from the USA. But once they sell said electronics say to China or North Korea....the USA is going to cut that off real fast and sue under international contract law.

Russia, can dictate under contract how and who uses its products.

karynnj

(59,474 posts)
29. As soon as it is paid for, I think it is no longer Gazrom's property
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 12:07 PM
Jun 2014

Is this a new "gentleman's agreement"? That they can buy it only if they agree not to resell it? Is the actual point of sale when the European government pay for it or when it arrives in their country? Not to mention, the reverse supplies actually sent the gas to country A and then sent it back to Ukraine.

This is just Russia trying to be able to have control over Ukraine by being able to threaten cutting off gas -- a pretty deadly threat mid winter.

dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
34. Its a conditition of the supply contract.
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 12:27 PM
Jun 2014

Nothing to do with gentlemen's agreements.

Ukraine has not had its gas cut off anyway other than by refusing to pay for it.

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
67. They said it couldn't be used as they please? I get the market rigging aspect. But once sold, nope.
Sat Jun 28, 2014, 08:23 AM
Jun 2014

That is what businesses do on a daily basis, buy low and sell for more elsewhere. Not that I'm in love with those added costs, in many cases for no value added.

dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
68. There are other examples above of goods which cannot be onward sold as per contract terms.
Sat Jun 28, 2014, 09:24 AM
Jun 2014

In this case its a bi-product of different price structures across Europe. Gazprom sells on that basis and countries not agreeing to those terms are welcome to go elsewhere - LNG from Statoil for example @ c. $405 / 1000 cu metres. Ukraine could do the same.

dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
74. More here.
Sat Jun 28, 2014, 01:03 PM
Jun 2014

Naftogaz asking EC for major gas reverse flow from Slovakia http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/naftogaz-asking-ec-for-major-gas-reverse-flow-from-slovakia-352096.html not sure who EC refers too

Sending Russian gas east to Ukraine 'could be illegal' http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_analysis/2363652/russia_ukraine_eu_tied_by_gas_dependency.html wherein you will find that the issue is one internal to Ukraine / Naftogas regarding direction of flow.

Slovakia wants guarantees before reversing gas to Ukraine http://www.euractiv.com/sections/energy/slovakia-wants-guarantees-reversing-gas-ukraine-301507

karynnj

(59,474 posts)
69. yes, but it may be a threat Russia really can't do
Sat Jun 28, 2014, 09:54 AM
Jun 2014

Oil is a huge part of their economy. If they cut off all of Europe, they need to sell the oil somewhere else. The question is whether China or any other part of the world can purchase the volume Europe uses. If Europe stands together, Russia is very unlikely to want to suffer the consequences. However, it could be nerve wracking if specific countries are targeted.



 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
60. You owe me money for gas I sold you.....
Sat Jun 28, 2014, 04:14 AM
Jun 2014

...but you won't pay your bills. On top of that, you demand I cut the price of what you already bought at discount prices and say you won't pay anything of what you owe until I do. So I cut off your supplies that you're storing for winter now, because you ain't paying.

So now you want to give some money to your cousin in France to buy the gas you need from me for him.

And your cousin says they'll do it, for a cut for buying it for you.

But I'm still out of the money you owe.

- Yeah, it's theft.

elleng

(130,126 posts)
73. 'You owe me money for gas I sold you
Sat Jun 28, 2014, 12:33 PM
Jun 2014

but you won't pay your bills' = theft. On top of that, further aggravating facts.

 

ErikJ

(6,335 posts)
43. HA! Russia has Europe by the balls
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 02:08 PM
Jun 2014

Proving that those with the (black) gold make the rules. I hope this is a lesson for Europe and the rest of the world to triple their renewable energy sources and get the hell off that crap.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
48. Hard to root for the conservative, homophobic government with terrible income inequality over
Fri Jun 27, 2014, 08:45 PM
Jun 2014

the EU - a more liberal, gay-rights supportive entity with the best income equality in the world.

Cha

(295,899 posts)
57. Well said, pampango..
Sat Jun 28, 2014, 03:49 AM
Jun 2014
"Hard to root for the conservative, homophobic government with terrible income inequality over

the EU - a more liberal, gay-rights supportive entity with the best income equality in the world."
 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
61. Hard to root for the conservative, unemployment benefit and food stamp cutting.....
Sat Jun 28, 2014, 04:28 AM
Jun 2014

...dronophillac one here, as well. {Yeah I know, it was Congress' fault}

- And the EU after the right's surprise in the last elections, seems to becoming the EU-Turn.....




The overreach of The Oligarchs will be their undoing......

pampango

(24,692 posts)
63. Despite the recent conservative (they never sleep) turn in the EU, the safety net is still stronger
Sat Jun 28, 2014, 07:14 AM
Jun 2014

than anything in Russia or the US. I hope the conservative (austerity) mindset has proven itself to be a failure (as FDR recognized in 1937) and the EU will return to its roots.

I agree that the far-right's electoral success last month is worrying. Their affinity for Putin and his foreign and domestic policies is not a good sign for the future irrespective of the future of Ukraine.

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
62. You were saying something about minding one's own business?
Sat Jun 28, 2014, 04:31 AM
Jun 2014

[center][/center]

- ''When you spend most of your money on hammers you tend to see all problems as nails.''

[center]
[/center]

- ''The only way to cure Military Measles is to withhold nourishment until the spots fall off.''

Monk06

(7,675 posts)
64. Russia will just raise the price which will have to be passed on to the Ukraine unless
Sat Jun 28, 2014, 07:25 AM
Jun 2014

the EU decides to take over the subsidy for Ukrainian gas that Russia has been supplying.

The problem is the Ukraine is run by it's own gangsters who have been stealing gas from Russia for ten years (Timeschenko) and not even paying their bills.

Also there is only one line that can reverse flow into the Ukraine and that line is in Belarus.

Fuck, the US and the EU are so stupid.

Russia just signed an pipeline agreement with China. Five years and those pipes will be exporting oil east and the Ukraine will be selling wheat, women and stolen Escalades.
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