It would be kind of nice to know how much company we have.

I didn't know Visa was involved with the NRA.

"Every purchase helps fund valuable NRA programs at no cost to you" (In other words the NRA makes money when someone uses their NRA credit card.)


http://www.nraaccounts.com/banner_web/

The card with Michigan State advertising on it...so does every group with a credit card deal....millions of them. ..such a non issue. .

They lobby, they advocate, and they fund constitutional challenges occasionally. They are no different than any other advocacy group. .what "common sense laws" have they prevented?

Do you believe the NRA is an advocate for the firearms industry or for individuals?

Want universal background checks? I mean every gun the firearms industry sells requires a background check, why wouldn't they want that for all sales?

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

against sensible gun laws. You weren't aware of this?

Do we need to list all of the millions of other lobbying groups from anti abortion to Peta who spend money in Washington? People say the NRA is a shill for the repugs. .that's true today, it hasn't always been that way, just since the democratic party began advocating for policies contrary to their interests. ..pretty sure very few choice groups are supporting republican candidates.

They have a few million members. All US gun makers combined wouldn't make the fortune 500. It is the voices of a much larger portion of the 100-150k gun owning population that influences policy on the larger scale...oh, and the constitution, that is more than a minor issue with probably 95% of the gun control proposals made and why even with democratic control in Washington shit don't get passed. ..or even make it out of Democratically chaired committees.

No, we either allow lobbying or we don't. .I'd be all for taking away corporate personhood and all lobbying money, but alas, that isn't happening any time soon either. ..I'm sure it is easier to just blame a boogie man than understand the issue for what it is...

The "need" we have psychologically to assign blame is very powerful. For pro-control folks the first choice for blame is the gun. The second choice is often any anti-control person or group, frequently the NRA. It's predictable.

Because it's a huge fucking issue IMHO.
So much so, that I am going to start refusing to accept Visa cards at my shop until they break all ties with the NRA.

*edit*
Care to explain why you think this is a non-issue?

To major national movements. This is an example of the latter. I'm sure if you look you can get one for any movement of any size you wish.

makes it a non-issue.

A group you disagree with? Futility. ..accept the things I cannot change and all that. ..

because it's highly unlikely that Visa is going to sever ties with the NRA, it's too profitable for them.
But good luck with that.

They might sever ties if it costs them more than it brings in.
Not saying our shop alone would do that, but if enough people follow suit, then who knows.

Customers. ..

he'd change his tune real quick.

....and they told me they took Master Card and AmEx but not my Visa because some bank somewhere had issued a Visa with a NRA logo on it for people who wanted that I would not be mad at Visa so much but with your store policies...."See look right here on MY Visa, NO NRA logo, instead a nice beach scene...!"

just a blue background.

Sorry to here I would not be able to use it if I ever was to purchase something at your store. Your loss I guess.

Civil liberties groups. It has been their business model to gain consumers by appealing to their passion so. Football teams, colleges, peta, you name it, there is a visa card promoting it....

And name one so evil as the NRA, one name might convince....how about the ACLU, or the SPLC, now those guys are truly evil.....

I get that you hate the 2nd amendment, you can advocate to amend it....you can probably get a Brady Campaign visa card if you want. Liberalism has historically been the champion of free expression, association, and speech.

You never go full Derp.

He actually Hurped.

two million people were killed in Cambodia in a four year period - that works out to nearly 1800 deaths a day. Did you even think before posting that?

You don't like guns - I get it. Minimizing genocide is not how you go about gaining support for your cause.

Sayin "fucking" does make ones point better though give, you that.
And the number you pulled out of your fucking stupid keyboard is incorrect:

http://worldwithoutgenocide.org/genocides-and-conflicts/cambodian-genocide

750K, but how does comparisons like this make any point at all other than both are genocidal?

Apparently 10,000 a year gun deaths forever is just fine with you, watering the tree of liberty and all that.

Secondly, we have cut our murder and manslaughter rate in in half in the past 20 years - is that a sign of genocide to you?

Where is the cut off? What murder rate equals genocide to you? Give me a number.

and why do you consider suicide a genocidal act?

It's not genocide, it's… well, what? Pretty sick state of affairs. Internalized emptiness.

When the free will of a people, not a military junta, produce that many dead, it's a major social malfunction. Social being defined as the need to get along.

that can best be addressed through single payer healthcare with adequate mental health coverage.

Look - the numbers, while steadily declining, need to be lower. But it is not genocide by any stretch of the imagination.

Violent crime overall increased in 2012.

What were you saying about "continues to decline?" The murder rate is increasing.

Why don't you do your homework before you spout off falsities?

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/violent-crime

Tells us what exactly? That there are short term fluctuations around a long term trend perhaps?

Again, you state a falsehood.

20 years ago. Heck of a genocide, don't you think? Violent crime of every kind has been steadily falling for 20 years. You have to go back nearly 60 years to find lower rates - including murder.

Clear now?

Academics set the number at 2.4 million. https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP4.HTM

So we are "just like Cambodia". Have you ever been to Cambodia? I have been there three times. And I have seen the Killing Fields and torture camps. First time in 1992 when the Khmer Rouge still controlled large sections of the county. Last time a couple years ago when body parts are starting to come up from the ground where they executed and buried in shallow graves.

No we are not just like Cambodia. What an ignorant statement.

YOU were the one who made the ignorant statement that America is like Cambodia. Then when someone calls you on your ignorance you act like a bystander to the argument.

Far more people die of being fat in America than ever will die of gun deaths. So I guess those are at "good levels" for you.

So, are gun related deaths at acceptable levels? Nothing need be done, just carry on forever?

Everyone of them chose to shoot themselves. Most other gun deaths are drug/gang/crime related. They chose to become gang members with the full knowledge that many get killed. So, no, I don't see the difference.

Trying to sidetrack the meaning of your comment to this absurd argument in order to neutralize you doesn't help their position.

People of good will see it all for what it is. The ethics of the people involved certainly stand out throughout the spew fest.

There is no "other side" to reality.

I appreciate your efforts on behalf of civilization.

Is that statement defensible?

If so, please explain why.

Number of deaths for leading causes of death in the US (2010)

Heart disease: 597,689
Cancer: 574,743
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 138,080
Stroke : 129,476
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 120,859
Alzheimer's disease: 83,494
Diabetes: 69,071
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 50,476
Influenza and Pneumonia: 50,097
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 38,364


http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm

is more dead than one who dies by other means?

Last edited Sat Jun 28, 2014, 10:05 AM - Edit history (1)

Amusing sort of disconnect also:

1,600 a year killed by knives......blamed on the person/perpetrator
500 a year by bats and clubs.....blamed on the person/perp
900 a year by hands and feet...blamed on the person/perp

6,000 a year by hand guns..........blamed on the gun (where'd the perp go?!)
300 a year by rifles...................again, the guns fault


http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8

I also don't get this:
34,000 a year die in auto accidents and the inevitable response will be "But guns are made to kill!"
How is that better? Something NOT designed to kill kills over 3 times what the tool designed for the job does and that's somehow a improvement or a good thing?

And I guarantee you if you got rid of every firearm in the US the murder rate would be close to the same or even HIGHER as criminals realized brawn and a club will win over every woman or older person and most men too.

...in fact the death rate was considerably higher BEFORE guns, so maybe guns aren't really the crux of the problem.

In 2009, according to the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, 67% of all homicides in the U.S. were conducted using a firearm.[4] Two-thirds of all gun-related deaths in the U.S. are suicides. In 2010, there were 19,392 firearm-related suicides, and 11,078 firearm-related homicides in the U.S.[5] In 2010, 358 murders were reported involving a rifle while 6,009 were reported involving a handgun; another 1,939 were reported with an unspecified type of firearm.[6] High-profile assassinations such as those of John F. Kennedy, Martin Luther King, and the Beltway sniper attacks involved the use of rifles, usually with telescopic sights, from concealed locations.

Here's the definition of genocide:

Or maybe that is totally a BS statement?

US listing in world wide suicides: 33rd (out of 110 countries keeping track)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

US listing in homicides: 109th (out of 218)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

So at least 108 other countries ahead of us apparently have a ongoing "genocide"? phhhhhhttt...

is when a group of people try to kill everyone of a shared identity, usually an ethnicity. The gun deaths in the US aren't an attempt to wipe us all out, so the killings aren't genocidal. The killings aren't connected through any shared motivation. Most of them are independent from each other.

Instead of one bad root, we have millions of them.

Instead of a quasi-state sanctioned violence , we have independent violence. Just us bein' free.

mostly involving our police and military, but those actions are separate from this topic.

Allow anyone who wishes to pick up and move to Europe, Canada, or Japan if they prefer one of those lifestyles. At my age I have experienced 'the grass is greener' mentality disappointment. .

If you want European, Canadian, or Japanese government here, there is the option of legislative activism and constitutional convention...

oh...are you under the impression that those places are panaceas of safety?

If you want to get to the actual source. The ties aren't between Visa and the NRA, but between FNBO and the NRA.

Thanks for the link!

Visa is pretty much screwed no matter which way they go on this. If they keep the NRA cards, they're going to piss off one group, if they get rid of them they're going to piss off another group.

The valuable lesson companies ought to take away from this is don't get involved with the NRA in the first place.

it is hard to imagine this having an impact on their bottom line.

They care more about the bottom line and will do what makes them money, which means that the chances of them no longer issuing NRA themed cards is nil.

Keep the faith.

Visa isn't going to hurt their bottom line by angering 4.5 million NRA members, along with millions of other firearms owners, but if that's what pleases you, more power to you.

Just being realistic, online petitions rarely work, and Visa won't give 2 hoots about an online petition with a few thousand signatures, Visa is going to do what's best for their bottom and that doesn't include dropping their NRA themed cards.

interesting?

So, I'm posting much more than usual and enjoying the time with my wife, kids, grandkids, animals.
Anyway, do you believe that Visa will care about an online petition with just a few thousand signatures?

every drop counts.
Apologies if I in any way offended you, I try not to.

Every internet post comes out sounding sarcastic, the nature of the beast I think.

matter of fact, I'm rather enjoying the civil conversation between us.

(or the NRA) either way. They'll probably just ignore it.

Semi-related, the credit card reader Square prohibits firearms-related transactions, and despite some initial attention to the announcement I don't think it has helped or hurt their bottom line...

certainly could be a boon to small businesses - from what I've heard from some local stores, the traditional card fees can put a bit of a crimp in the bottom line...

would leap to do business with a company they perceive as unethical...

No surprise as selfishness and fear is a lifelong membership to the NRA.

Many gun-controllers readily take advantage of children's deaths to push their cause. It happens a LOT, and accomplishes little, save for some fleeting pleasure in righteous indignation. Others don't engage in the practice.

Accusing us of taking pleasure in that outrage?

Re-think your tactics.

a good righteous finger-point at others is what others do. I merely point it out. From time to time.

outrage by some, these not so much...


http://www.injury-lawyer-florida.com/2009/01/fort_myers_man_sentenced_to_15.html

Drunk and distracted riving, deaths happens many times every day but no outrage and the car of course is not the problem.