I don't and one of the reasons is that I do not want even one cent of my TV or entertainment budget to go to Fox News.

I strongly suggest that everyone who believes that torture is wrong end their TV subscription. Just drop it. The networks need to learn hat seriously immoral news reporting and TV entertainment shows have to end.

I began to feel this way when my daughters in high school were watching Fox network's Beverly Hills 90210. That show was geared very specifically to corrupt high school kids especially girls. It was just sick in my opinion. Drug use. Sexual promiscuity. All the things you don't want for your children.

I suppose that there are even worse programs now. They are destructive. The movies and shows that depict torture are even worse.

Maybe I am just silly and old fashioned. But I advise people to drop their cable subscriptions. You are not getting your money's worth. There is plenty to do without watching sick TV.

which IIRC was broadcast over-the-air on NBC as well as cable MSNBC.
http://www.democracynow.org/2013/3/21/phil_donahue_on_his_2003_firing

give it a try even for a year. I've used this place to save, link. They used to pay 3% and now pay only 1%, but one can carefully use their retail card cashbacks and earn up to 12/14% on things you need anyway.

https://www.smartypig.com/

Don't these brainless twits realize that they are essentially justifying the torture of U S military service personnel if they are captured. The enemy can consider them to be fair game with no incentive not to torture them just for the hell of it. Cheney fully endorses the concept since it didn't matter who we captured, they could all be subjected to torture. It didn't matter that they actually weren't responsible for 9/11, they were there members of the same religion, therefore they were guilty by association.

Remember that this outstanding protector of Americans outed a covert CIA agent that was working to protect us from the threat of nuclear devices solely in revenge for her husband exposing the lies that he was telling regarding the "yellow cake" fiasco. I feel sorry for the younger generations and can only hope they can see through the propaganda that choking the life out of the nation. Our Main Stream Media is absolutely nothing more than a dysfunctional mass of bootlicking assholes.

US personnel have always been tortured by their captors in every conflict.

Everyone tortures, if anything the US on the whole has been the least likely to torture over its history.

lead to some JUSTICE for everyone.

Our condemnation of the use of torture was instrumental in obtaining the Geneva accords condemning the practice with the threat of prosecution. It troubles me when I read that 50% or our citizens do not condemn it without any exceptions. Sorry, but I consider Cheney to be an evil bastard without shed of decency.

but you are implying this justifies torture of Americans.

The point again, is EVERYONE tortures, and they were torturing Americans well before the US had the chance to possibly return the favour, and in the grander scheme, the US is a mere piker in the torturing dept.

If 50% bugs you, then the real number which is probably close to 100% given the right circumstances would really flip your lid. And I'm considering all of humanity not just Americans.

been OK. Plus, Obama is afraid of Brennan--that guy can outright LIE to Congress about hacking their computers, contradict Obama's supposed position on torture, and still enjoy Obama's confidence. What does that say?

And that something is unfortunately that Obama has either given in to the corruption or seriously fears a coup.

Alternatively it could mean that our country has already been through a coup, that the right-wing military and intelligence agencies are really in charge, and that Obama knows he serves only at their pleasure.

Take you pick. "It ain't perty."

If not for him we would not even have this information today.

Last edited Tue Dec 16, 2014, 02:09 PM - Edit history (1)

No, maybe it's just that the American people think differently than you. I know that's really hard to understand, since DU is such a microcosm of American thought - but it's probably true.

It's also why Bush was never impeached during his presidency and why neither Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren have come out in favor of prosecution. They're not stupid.

sounds like government propaganda to me.

But then again, why should cause-and-effect facts matter to a country that essentially tortured the entire nation of Iraq for non-existent WMD, non-existent involvement in 911 and non-existent ties to Al Queda/OBL?

We also have a dominant conception of religion in which an all powerful being will torture you for eternity, not to gain any information or prevent you from being an asshole in the NEXT life but simply as some kind of revenge/punishment.

They just don't know the whole of it.

because the odds are some of the sociopaths who approve of torture would be members of the jury and would torpedo the case unless of course it was purely a trial with a judge and no jury.

People are not sociopaths. They just have been told it wasn't really torture and they think that the fuss is about nothing. They simply do not know what really happens when people are tortured.

Americans would not treat their dogs the way that the Bush/Cheney bunch treated human beings, some innocent, some even captured by mistake.

Americans just don't understand what happened. Most probably never will.

But you get a jury of 12 and you present the evidence, as much as a judge will allow, and you go on and on and call witnesses who describe the suffering and chances are good that you will get a conviction especially in the case in which the suspect (not convicted of a crime mind you) died.

Americans are not as evil as some might think.

A defendant has the benefit of the doubt in a criminal case, but the torture report kind of leaves very little doubt.

A jury might not convict, but I think there is a good chance it would.

The report has been released during the Christmas season. People have not read it. I have not read it. Give it time to sink in.

Every other person - naaaaa!

Or some other white guys?

Screw the influence of the MSM and the brainwashing of Americans 24/7, if over 50% of us truly believe the CIA program is in any way "justified," we have for damn sure lost our moral compass.

-- Mal

torturing the truth to defend their own guilt.

That might have garnered a few votes in favor.

-- Mal

Justified or not justified?

Poll that mother fuckers, ask an honest question.

Same for "simulated drownings."

Beatings -- what percentage of Americans beat their children or were beaten as children. That phrase covers a lot of territory.

Tell someone that their neighbor beat his child, and the someone may well shrug. Show the neighbor the pictures of the whip or belt marks on the child's back, the whip or belt marks on the child's legs and buttocks, maybe cigarette burns on the child's body, and the neighbor will be horrified.

The brief TV reports do not give enough information for people to know what "hanging by ropes" means. That is why these people should be tried in a court of law by a jury that can view and hear as much evidence as the court has time for.

The personal need for revenge is very strong, even if misdirected.

Did you read about Chemerinsky's proposal that John Yoo be tried for conspiring to break federal law. It's in the Nation. I recommend the article.

Americans would imprison someone who tortured their dog, much less a human being. People just do not comprehend what the torture means in terms of human suffering and for no information or at the most, information that could have been or was obtained through other means.

The information obtained through torture, if any, would have to be checked and corroborated and would be intermingled with so many falsehoods, so much misleading information as to be worthless.

The Germans crushed some of the American and British and French resisters and spies during WWII through the use of torture, but that was a very different situation.

disgusting

Look forward, not back, turn a blind eye.....

Chicago PD torturer of over 200 arrested people, was recently released to a halfway house after serving only a tiny fraction of his minuscule sentence.)

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/jon-burge-ex-chicago-cop-who-ran-torture-ring-released-prison

Statute of limitation had run out on Burge's torture, but he was convicted of perjury.

Not to worry, though. Rahm says he's "sorry."

USA! USA! USA!

These people live in a fantasy world.

And THEN those ass hats can decide if it's torture or not. . . .

Push poll.

classic push poll.

Humans - gullible, greedy, apathetic (in broad generalities) - so capable of so much, but so satisfied to be so very incapable.

...could I find the ACTUAL questions that were asked in the course of the poll.

Unfortunately these "summaries" of how those surveyed responded deviate from the actual questions asked.

For example, the only inkling that I can get about the question asked is whether or not those tactics "helped prevent future attacks". BUT, that's not how it's presented. Many may think it helped prevent attacks BUT still don't think those tactics were justified.

Anyone find what exactly was asked during the survey?

Top of the home page:

http://www.people-press.org/files/2014/12/12-15-14-CIA-Interrogation-Release.pdf

Biased poll.

brainwashed, blinded, and duped by yellow ribbon magnet patriotism and evil handlers.

CIA "enhanced interrogation methods" after 9/11...the spin being spun is not in this poll.

This poll is ludicrously transparent trying to protect the lies both the
Bush administration and the media advanced.

Edit: the question just used "interrogation methods"....

"Were CIA interrogation methods following 9/11 justified?"

WTF question is that?

Then the majority of Americans are wrong. Not exactly unusual.

and or morally bankrupt.

question avoids using torture...it avoids defining the "techniques", it avoids defining "justified"...the poll is a criminal act of mass media deflection from their own criminal aiding and abetting.

informed, and be able to recognize bullshit when they see it. I don't know what the
majority feels about torture..I can only hope we are not that deep in the hole as
this snapshot appears to give us.

Pretty simple.

no surprise, after all they were/are 'others'. This shit they did, no. No pass. Just fucking mean. I'm still not convinced with conclusion, official, of who, what and why went wrong with intelligence surrounding the application of that particular threat that transpired on 9/11/01, which was 'officially' and sufficiently known about and of which the FBI warned them about......

we have a dog-eat-dog economic system, we have been parasitized since the day we were born, and we daily live in what is basically a cruel system. If you're black, you live daily with the fear you'll be executed, shot or cruelly choked on the street by the cops. If you're not black, you've likely had scary encounters with the cops.

What's a little torture? Sounds like life.

It used to be axiomatic that some means were unjustifiable, no matter what the ends. That was call "values."

Yet, we have people who claim to be Christians justify the morally bankruptcy of torture. The use of the hypothetical "ticking bomb" argument is nothing more than clever means to justify unwarranted immoral use of torture regardless of its necessity or effectiveness. I read an account by intelligence officers who during WWII who interrogated important prisoners. They stated without equivocation that torture was useless and that they were able to secure unblemished information unclouded by the uncertainty of information obtained under torture by treating their captives with respect and gaining their confidence. If you want the unvarnished truth then become their best friend and protector.

But I repeat myself.

It's also easy to remember Rush Limbaugh is close to the producers of "24." So creepy.

This pattern of a steady diet of violence on tv, drumming criminal behavior into the minds of unformed children isn't doing anyone any favors.

"24" is not only stupid, it's propaganda, recreating the belief in "enemies" year after year, conditioning people to believe anything is o.k. if it means self-defense, and you can stretch "self-defense" to cover almost any situation where violence can be used, instead of intelligence.

Whom would "Jayzus" torture?

I grief the fall of this once decent Republic.

are sick, twisted and evil.

This is so VERY frightening.

What the hell is happening ???

Do these people know nothing about the history of the world ??

Do they know the history of their own country ???

Christian Nation my ass !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

there were MANY popularly-supported "methods." In the long run, they actually DIDN'T work out so well, now did they?

it would come out that the majority of Americans would say that that was justified too.

I don't believe polls anymore. I believe the results are made up based on the situation and the issue - so as to sweep things under the rug.

I really believe if it came out that 9/11 was MIHOP - that there would be a poll to justify that.

I'm so embarrassed by this country. We've fallen so far into an abyss of immorality it isn't even funny. If people came back from the dead - they wouldn't recognize it as the same country. It's really, really sad and we're all so helpless to turn that around.

Next week this torture report will be old news and we'll have some new crisis to get inflamed about.

How about we all should be worried about 'lone wolf attacks' like the one in Sidney.

I don't know how a majority of our Congress can look themselves in the mirror in the morning.

there was still a fair amount of discussion about World War II. A key thing said repeatedly at the time (in the 60s for me as to when I can recollect it as a boy) that supposedly separated the Allies from the Nazis or Japanese was our position on torture.

So I don't get the poll and I'm having trouble believing it or accepting it. It certainly wasn't what people seemed to feel widely about torture when I was growing up.

Maybe I'm naive. But my feelings about torture haven't changed in 50+ years. It's just simply wrong.

"They are Jews," said Hennreich. "They ard not Christians; ultimately, it is us or them."
Hennreich went on to say that nobody really favors the using of cyanide gas on other humans. But, he clarified, the means justifies the end.

umm ... Don' think so.
Much more of the country is moving right than left.
The country is growing more nationalistic and conservative every day and no one has any theories on how to stop it other than predict that it will reverse soon.

I won't be too surprised if Bush wins in 2016 either.

that we are a nation of cruel people.

the venerable society of schnazies composed of the himmler and goebbles fan clubs?

that's why I say the oppressors have won. WE non-torture advocates are a minority, and not even a very substantial one.

Feel safer now?

It's a case of the majority probably having very little clue about what was actually done. Garbage in, garbage out is a term used to refer to bad data being interested into an otherwise functional system (like an otherwise fine polling methodology!) An important part of this poll is the queating on how closely they followed the news and it's correlation to the conclusions theys came to. About than 25% responded that they followed the news closely, with that number skewing towards the older over 50 crowd. They were more likely to say they agreed with the CIA methods.

The issue I have with this is are two issues that are well known from other studies, and which people on this forum are well aware of. One is that the older demographic is much more likely to get their news from Fox News. The 2nd is that people who watch Fox news tend to be even more poorly informed than those who don't folow the news at all.

So I think this has less to do with Americans being for the actions of the CIA and more an issue of how to convey the facts of what the CIA actually was doing ando get people to listen. Hopefully those numbers will change as the information is out there for a bit longer.

"Most people" were "informed" that the people getting tortured were behind 9-11.

Thinking of the last 500 years. Atleast I didn't see some of the methods used to help safeguard and/or locate Treasure Galleons or convert people to Catholicism. Seems to me it's only some romantic notion that we were more civilized in the recent past. Let us hope the trend to more civilized ways continues.

Total bullshit .