Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

KinMd

(966 posts)
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 12:23 AM Dec 2014

Ruling overturned on sex-change surgery for Mass. inmate

Source: Boston Globe

A divided federal appeals court in Boston on Tuesday overturned a lower court’s ruling that a transgender Massachusetts prison inmate, convicted of committing a domestic murder, was entitled to taxpayer-funded sex change surgery.

The ruling by the First US Circuit Court of Appeals came after a 2012 ruling by US District Judge Mark Wolf, who ordered the surgery after finding that the state’s failure to provide it violated the inmate’s Eighth Amendment protection against cruel and unusual punishment.

In January, a three-judge panel of the appeals court upheld Wolf’s 2012 decision, but the state of Massachusetts then asked for an en banc, or full bench, review, which led to Tuesday’s ruling.

The ruling came in the case of Michelle Kosilek, who was born Robert Kosilek. Kosilek is serving a life sentence for killing her wife, Cheryl Kosilek, in 1990.

Read more: http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2014/12/16/federal-appeals-court-overturns-ruling-ordering-sex-change-surgery-for-mass-prison-inmate/WqBuLuGI14yZ6nVoFCIfjK/story.html



A good decision in my opinion
54 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Ruling overturned on sex-change surgery for Mass. inmate (Original Post) KinMd Dec 2014 OP
Gender conformation surgery is necessary healthcare. LeftyMom Dec 2014 #1
The convicted muderer should pay for it herself KinMd Dec 2014 #2
She's incarcerated. The state pays for her health care, food, etc. LeftyMom Dec 2014 #3
But they're NOT going to pay for this surgery..that's a done deal now KinMd Dec 2014 #4
That will change eventually. Gender confirmation is a necessity LeftyMom Dec 2014 #6
Yes, in most cases Warpy Dec 2014 #10
Maybe she shouldn't have gotten herself incarcerated. GGJohn Dec 2014 #5
That's not how health care works. LeftyMom Dec 2014 #7
Post removed Post removed Dec 2014 #8
Trans people are at great risk of violence including self harm. LeftyMom Dec 2014 #9
Gender confirmation? Ok, no problem. GGJohn Dec 2014 #12
Ok so should we not give any treatment to a prisoner with a broken hand or foot? Tell them to wrap MillennialDem Dec 2014 #24
So if a female prisoner thinks she needs bigger breasts because shes a size A and wants to be a D cstanleytech Dec 2014 #17
Is that a recognized DSM condition and the treatment? LeftyMom Dec 2014 #18
Gender confirmation surgeries and treatments (there's more than one by the way) are recognized as MillennialDem Dec 2014 #25
According to the court, that is still debatable in the medical community. happyslug Dec 2014 #15
I have free healthcare and can't even have necessary tooth implants Reter Dec 2014 #22
I paid for a tooth implant out of pocket and I'm trans - uh yeah I'd rather have that MillennialDem Dec 2014 #27
How is not offering a murderer a taxpayer-funded sex change "cruel and unusual"? Nye Bevan Dec 2014 #11
They are generally provided with life-saving procedures AFAIK. nomorenomore08 Dec 2014 #13
Actually the Court said denying sex reassignment surgery could be cruel and unusual punishment. happyslug Dec 2014 #16
Here is the Court's opinion happyslug Dec 2014 #14
If it is more efficient to treat the symptoms, then do so Android3.14 Dec 2014 #19
It's not cosmetic, it's functional. And anti depressants and counseling don't cure gender MillennialDem Dec 2014 #28
I didn't make myself clear Android3.14 Dec 2014 #30
Thoughts MillennialDem Dec 2014 #32
It is always unfortunate when people find offense when none is intended or even there. Android3.14 Dec 2014 #34
I think MillennialDem Dec 2014 #45
I'm unsure what your point is at this juncture Android3.14 Dec 2014 #48
Educate yourself and good luck. You are condescending to non-ops. MillennialDem Dec 2014 #51
As a precedent setting case this will hurt others One_Life_To_Give Dec 2014 #20
She can have it once she gets out on parole... Historic NY Dec 2014 #21
She's doing life without parole KinMd Dec 2014 #23
Treatment for a broken hand or foot is elective - do you suggest we never give prisoners MillennialDem Dec 2014 #29
Putting a limb in a cast is not surgery Android3.14 Dec 2014 #31
Wow...... MillennialDem Dec 2014 #33
As I noted upthread Android3.14 Dec 2014 #35
According to the Wpath it is sometimes necessary One_Life_To_Give Dec 2014 #36
And the Court of Appeals agreed with that position happyslug Dec 2014 #38
good enough Android3.14 Dec 2014 #39
It's DOC's choice of Johns Hopkins that concerns the trans community One_Life_To_Give Dec 2014 #46
But John Hopkins has a decent reputation within the medical community happyslug Dec 2014 #47
Exception is with Transgender Community One_Life_To_Give Dec 2014 #50
That might be true, but the Court position is who to rely on is up to the DOC not the Courts. happyslug Dec 2014 #52
Did two doctors state the opinion no such treatment was needed??? happyslug Dec 2014 #37
was speaking in general terms, not specific. MillennialDem Dec 2014 #40
This thread is about this case, but even the Court of Appeal said such surgery MAY be required happyslug Dec 2014 #42
Again, I was talking about general terms. I can deviate from a topic if I want. MillennialDem Dec 2014 #44
All the trans-phobic people in this thread, UGH!!! Odin2005 Dec 2014 #26
I like the people making comments without first reading the actual opinion. happyslug Dec 2014 #41
Seems to me most commments, even in Massachusetts aren't trans-phobic KinMd Dec 2014 #43
Elizabeth Warren commented on this issue in 2012 madville Dec 2014 #49
So she made a comment in regards to tax money, that was the topic and her answer. happyslug Dec 2014 #53
SCOTUS just agreed with her Dealra May 2015 #54

LeftyMom

(49,212 posts)
1. Gender conformation surgery is necessary healthcare.
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 12:47 AM
Dec 2014

It shouldn't be restricted to the wealthy or the deserving. It's vital for the health and well-being that trans people have access. Period.

KinMd

(966 posts)
2. The convicted muderer should pay for it herself
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 12:49 AM
Dec 2014

or if people want to start a "go fund me" site ..I'm good with it

LeftyMom

(49,212 posts)
3. She's incarcerated. The state pays for her health care, food, etc.
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 12:53 AM
Dec 2014

That's how being incarcerated works. She can't get a paper route and save up.

The idea that she should pay for this health care and not other care is rooted in the idea that transpeople aren't deserving or that their medical needs aren't real and it's inherently transphobic.

LeftyMom

(49,212 posts)
6. That will change eventually. Gender confirmation is a necessity
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 01:02 AM
Dec 2014

and that's increasingly understood. It's sad that MA is bigoted and backward on this matter, but progress is inevitable.

Warpy

(111,237 posts)
10. Yes, in most cases
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 01:19 AM
Dec 2014

However, I'd need to look very carefully at a man in for murdering his wife to make sure he wasn't trying to get into a women's prison because he thought it would be easier.

All people going in to gender reassignment surgery get counseling. Let's hope this inmate gets a counselor with an excellent bullshit detector.

Then of course it should be paid for. It should be paid for for anyone with gender dysphoria who wants it done by single payer outside the jug and Medicaid inside it.

LeftyMom

(49,212 posts)
7. That's not how health care works.
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 01:06 AM
Dec 2014

"I need insulin/ this tumor removed/ a wheelchair"

"You should have thought about that before you went to prison"

If you think trans health care is different somehow that's bigoted. Period.

Response to LeftyMom (Reply #7)

LeftyMom

(49,212 posts)
9. Trans people are at great risk of violence including self harm.
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 01:14 AM
Dec 2014

These statistics are even worse in prison. Gender confirmation (note: "sex change" is outdated at best) greatly reduces those risks.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
12. Gender confirmation? Ok, no problem.
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 01:43 AM
Dec 2014

Once again, she wouldn't have this problem if she hadn't gotten herself incarcerated.

 

MillennialDem

(2,367 posts)
24. Ok so should we not give any treatment to a prisoner with a broken hand or foot? Tell them to wrap
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 11:49 AM
Dec 2014

the fucker in gauze and be done with it.

They should have thought about it before they got incarcerated.

cstanleytech

(26,280 posts)
17. So if a female prisoner thinks she needs bigger breasts because shes a size A and wants to be a D
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 03:08 AM
Dec 2014

the taxpayers should pay for it? I mean I could understand if its reconstruction due to treatment for cancer or even a reduction due to her breast size being to big and causing her back problems but otherwise I am not so sure.

LeftyMom

(49,212 posts)
18. Is that a recognized DSM condition and the treatment?
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 03:19 AM
Dec 2014

Because gender dysphoria is a well recognized condition and conformation surgery is the accepted treatment. We don't need absurd analogies that disregard the reality of trans people's existence or the seriousness of their concerns.

 

MillennialDem

(2,367 posts)
25. Gender confirmation surgeries and treatments (there's more than one by the way) are recognized as
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 11:51 AM
Dec 2014

medical necessities by all reputable medical associations. Society has catching up to do.

I've never been at death's door, but I can tell you right now I would much rather have any of the non-life threatening physical injuries and pain that I've had for life rather than live one more day as a man...

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
15. According to the court, that is still debatable in the medical community.
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 02:46 AM
Dec 2014

See the opinion I posted below, the court ruled that given that at trial there was two different set of medical opinion as to the need for Sex Reassignment Surgery, the courts have to leave such decision up to the Department of Corrections if the Department of Corrections is paying for the medical care.

Please note, at trial the issue was simply was Sex Reassignment Surgery actually needed in this case. At Trial some doctors said yes, one said no, and in such disputes it is up to the Department of Corrections to make the decision of who to go with AND such a decision is NOT cruel and unusual punishment.

Please note even the doctors who said Sex Reassignment Surgery was NOT needed at the present time, mentioned it may be needed in the future.

 

Reter

(2,188 posts)
22. I have free healthcare and can't even have necessary tooth implants
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 09:57 AM
Dec 2014

They say for teeth implants, it has to come out of my own pocket. That's a hell of a lot more necessary than a sex change.

 

MillennialDem

(2,367 posts)
27. I paid for a tooth implant out of pocket and I'm trans - uh yeah I'd rather have that
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 11:54 AM
Dec 2014

missing tooth for life than live one more day as a man.

And even if you disagree, why do you think because your healthcare won't pay for implants we shouldn't also pay for gender reassignment? It's not a race to the bottom.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
11. How is not offering a murderer a taxpayer-funded sex change "cruel and unusual"?
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 01:32 AM
Dec 2014

If it was really an "unusual" punishment then convicted murderers would be provided with such free surgery on a regular basis.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
13. They are generally provided with life-saving procedures AFAIK.
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 02:32 AM
Dec 2014

Now, sex reassignment surgery may be a bit more of a gray area, but nearly anyone in the medical or psychiatric profession would still consider it a medical necessity for certain patients with severe gender dysphoria.

Note that I say this not because I have particular concern for this woman's individual case, but in the interest of fairness and equality in healthcare more generally. Including among inmates.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
16. Actually the Court said denying sex reassignment surgery could be cruel and unusual punishment.
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 02:52 AM
Dec 2014

The court then ruled that based on the evidence presented in this case, that was NOT the case in this case.

You had a dispute as to NEED for such surgery in this case and in such cases the Court decided to defer to the decision of the prison. If there had been NO Dispute as to the need for such surgery OR that the prison had decision to approve the surgery, the court would have approved of such surgery. The decision on such treatment is up to the Prison NOT the Prisoner WHEN THEY IS A DISPUTE AMONG MEDICAL EXPERTS ON THE NEED FOR THE TREATMENT.

When they is no dispute, it can be ordered.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
14. Here is the Court's opinion
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 02:36 AM
Dec 2014

Earlier in the opinion the Court defined the following two abbreviations:

GID stands for "gender identity disorder", through the court acknowledge the term "gender dysphoria" is the preferred term, they stayed with GID to stay consistent with prior decision in this case.

DOC stands for "Massachusetts Department of Corrections"

SRS - sex reassignment surgery.


http://media.ca1.uscourts.gov/pdf.opinions/12-2194P2-01A.pdf

First lets look at what the Department of corrections were doing for the Plainitff, as found by the court:

The DOC responded to Kosilek I by revamping its policy for GID treatment. In the past, the DOC had adopted a policy of "freezing" a prisoner's treatment at whatever level that prisoner had attained prior to incarceration. Hormonal treatment, for example, would be available only to prisoners who had been prescribed hormones prior to incarceration. In place of this "freeze-frame" policy, after Kosilek I the DOC adopted a plan that allowed prisoners to receive additional treatment beyond the level of that received before entering prison, when such care was medically required. Under this new plan, medical recommendations would be made by the University of Massachusetts Correctional Health Program ("UMass&quot , a health-services provider contracted by the DOC. The DOC Commissioner and the DOC Director of Health Services were responsible for assessing whether any change in treatment would create increased security concerns.

Kosilek was evaluated by Dr. David Seil, a gender identity specialist, who prescribed a course of treatment to alleviate the mental distress -- often referred to as "dysphoria" -- associated with her GID. In line with Dr. Seil's recommendations, in 2003 the DOC began providing Kosilek with
significant ameliorative treatment aimed at directly addressing the mental distress caused by GID. In addition to continued mental health treatment, she was provided female, gender-appropriate clothing and personal effects, and electrolysis was performed to permanently remove her facial hair. Kosilek also began a course of hormonal treatments recommended by an endocrinologist. These treatments resulted in "breast development and shrinkage of her testicles." All of the treatments described continue to be offered to Kosilek to the present day.


After a long discussion the court reported the following as a finding of the Department of Corrections:

The report concluded by reiterating the Fenway Center's recommendation that Kosilek receive SRS. The doctors recognized that performing "such a procedure would . . .bring up issues of housing and safety," but emphasized that "hormone therapy and [SRS] are the only clinical treatments found to be effective for GID."


The Department of Corrections then address the issue of housing and after a long discussion made the following point:

The report focused mainly on issues of safety and security surrounding Kosilek's post-operative housing. Dennehy conveyed concern regarding housing Kosilek at MCI-Norfolk, noting that approximately twenty-five percent of male offenders in the Massachusetts prison system are classified as sex offenders and concluding that "Kosilek would clearly be a target for assault and victimization in a male prison." The report also expressed concerns with housing Kosilek at MCI-Framingham, including the absence of single-bed cells, such that all inmates had to share cells, and the possibility that Kosilek's presence might exacerbate mental distress among the significant portion of MCI-Framingham's population that had previously experienced domestic abuse and trauma at the hands of male partners.

Given the stated infeasibility of housing Kosilek in the general population of either MCI-Framingham or MCI-Norfolk, the report considered segregated housing in a protected ward. It expressed concern, however, about the possible deleterious impact on Kosilek's mental health caused by any housing solution that required long-term isolation. The report also noted that it was not within the DOC's ability to create a special ward for prisoners with GID, given that these prisoners present a significant range of criminal histories, security ratings, and treatment needs that are antithetical to co-housing.

On June 10, 2005, citing both its internal review of safety and security and Osborne's reported concerns regarding the appropriateness of SRS, the DOC informed the district court that it had chosen to continue Kosilek's current ameliorative treatment, but not to provide her with SRS.


At trial one doctor said the following:


The DOC offered testimony from Dr. Chester Schmidt, a licensed psychiatrist and Associate Director of the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine. Dr. Schmidt expressed his belief that Kosilek had undergone an "excellent adaptation" through treatment with hormones, hair removal, psychotherapy, and the provision of female garb. These treatments had alleviated the severity of her mental distress and allowed Kosilek to significantly consolidate her gender identity. Dr. Schmidt acknowledged that, if not provided SRS, Kosilek's level of mental distress would likely increase, with depression or attempts at self-harm possible. On the whole, however, he believed that her positive adaptation and the consolidation of her gender identity indicated that the current course of treatment provided by the DOC was medically adequate. Dr. Schmidt explained that the severity of dysphoria associated with GID may "wax and wane," with patients feeling depressed or hopeless at times, but generally being able to alleviate these depressive symptoms with appropriate psychotherapy and medical interventions. He felt that these measures, in combination with Kosilek's current course of treatment, would allow her to live safely and maintain a level of contentment.


Thus you had two competitive plans on treatment for this prisoner, one involving SRS, the other NOT involving SRS and it was up to the Department of Corrections to pick which option. The trial judge said the Department of Correction had other agendas and for those reason opt to skip SRS, but the Court of Appeals said, they will defer to the Department of Corrections when it comes to such decisions.

Now before the court made its decision, it did state on law on this issue:

Therefore, to prove an Eighth Amendment violation, a prisoner must satisfy both of two prongs:

(1) an objective prong that requires proof of a serious medical need, and

(2) a subjective prong that mandates a showing of prison administrators' deliberate indifference to that need.


As to the first prong the Court pointed out that while the report by the treating physician recommended SRS, the need for SRS was brought into question in the actual trial by two other physicians, thus no conclusive evidence that SRS was needed to solve a serious medical need of the Plaintiff.

For another, this case presents unique circumstances; we are simply unconvinced that our decision on the record before us today will foreclose all litigants from successfully seeking SRS in the future. Certain facts in this particular record -- including the medical providers' non-uniform opinions regarding the necessity of SRS, Kosilek's criminal history, and the feasibility of postoperative housing -- were important factors impacting the decision.


Now the court also addressed the second prong of the test:

In this case, the DOC solicited the opinion of multiple medical professionals and was ultimately presented with two alternative treatment plans, which were each developed by different medical experts to mitigate the severity of Kosilek's mental distress. The choice of a medical option that, although disfavored by some in the field, is presented by competent professionals does not exhibit a level of inattention or callousness to a prisoner's needs rising to a constitutional violation.


With that finding the court then made its decision,, basically given the dispute as to the need for SRS in this case, it is up to the Department of Corrections to decide which one is the best option and they can consider housing in that decision.

We are not tasked today with deciding whether the refusal to provide SRS is uncompassionate or less than ideal. Neither finding would support Kosilek's claims of a constitutional violation. The Eighth Amendment, after all, proscribes only medical care so unconscionable as to fall below society's minimum standards of decency. See Estelle, 429 U.S. at 102-05. In this case, the DOC has chosen to provide a form of care that offers direct treatment for Kosilek's GID . Cf. Leavitt, 645 F.3d at 498 (acknowledging that the effects of treatment decisions may be relevant to consideration of the subjective component of the Eighth Amendment). Moreover, it has done so in light of the fact that provision of SRS would create new and additional security concerns -- concerns that do not presently arise from its current treatment regimen.

Given the positive effects of Kosilek's current regimen of care, and the DOC's plan to treat suicidal ideation should it arise, the DOC's decision not to provide SRS does not illustrate severe obstinacy or disregard of Kosilek's medical needs. DesRosiers, 949 F.2d at 19 ("[T]he complainant must prove that the defendants had a culpable state of mind and intended wantonly to inflict pain.&quot . Rather, it is a measured response to the valid security concerns identified by the DOC. Battista, 645 F.3d at 454 ("Medical 'need' in real life is an elastic term: security considerations also matter at prisons. . . .&quot ; Cameron, 990 F.2d at 20 ("Nothing in the Constitution mechanically gives controlling weight to one set of professional judgments.&quot . Having reviewed the record before us, we conclude that Kosilek has failed, on these facts, to demonstrate an Eighth Amendment violation. Accordingly, we reverse the district court's order of injunctive relief and remand this case to the district court with instructions to dismiss the case.
 

Android3.14

(5,402 posts)
19. If it is more efficient to treat the symptoms, then do so
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 06:55 AM
Dec 2014

While sympathy and accommodation are appropriate, providing surgery at taxpayer expense to a prison inmate for what are merely complicated cosmetic alterations is inappropriate.

Regular cosmetics, antidepressants and counseling will work for far less.

 

MillennialDem

(2,367 posts)
28. It's not cosmetic, it's functional. And anti depressants and counseling don't cure gender
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 12:01 PM
Dec 2014

dysphoria.

Usually some or all of the steps in the gender confirmation process are required. Again these are generally the steps - as I said SOMETIMES some of the steps can be omitted.

For male to female:

Hormones (testosterone blockers and estrogen)
Facial Hair Removal (electrolysis or laser)
Voice Therapy/Training (estrogens do not alter voice)
Facial Feminization Surgery
Breast Augmentation
Body Contouring (rarely needed)
Orchiectomy
Vaginoplasty

For female to male:

Hormones (testosterone... and rarely estrogen blockers)
Masectomy
Metoidioplasty and/or Phalloplasty
Voice Therapy (rarely needed - testosterone usually alters voice)
Facial Masculinization Surgery (rarely needed)

 

Android3.14

(5,402 posts)
30. I didn't make myself clear
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 12:49 PM
Dec 2014

I'm saying that counseling and antidepressants can help a person deal with the depression in a prison environment brought on by gender identity issues, and that providing that counseling and drug therapy is an appropriate response by the state. It is a cost-effective way to make the stay in prison tolerable.

I have empathy and respect for those who suffer from gender identity problems. However gender is genetic, and no amount of surgery will change an XY chromosome pair to an XX or the inverse. Additionally, the sex change process is a cosmetic process that does not change actual gender, but only the appearance of gender.

I'm glad that we have the procedure available, especially if it helps a person to find happiness, but I do not think taxpayers should pay for a convicted murderer to receive the surgery.

 

MillennialDem

(2,367 posts)
32. Thoughts
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 01:04 PM
Dec 2014

Um, what do you mean by "drug therapy"? Do you mean anti depressants or hormones or both? Because I've been treated with several antidepressants in relation to some of my own gender dysphoria and they didn't do squat. They either did nothing, made me feel like I was completely numb (less sadness but no joy at all), or gave me horrendous headaches and horrible nightmares.

Your second paragraph is very offensive to me as a trans person. First of all, many of us do not have ordinary XX or XY chromosomes - people with kleinfelter's syndrome seem highly prone to being trans. Secondly, chromosomes are meaningless anyway. It is possible for a person who has never had any medical treatments to have the complete wrong chromosomes and you would never be able to tell - there are several conditions that can cause this, but androgen insensitivity disorder is probably the most well known. In case you don't know what that it is, it is a person with XY chromosomes who should have developed as a male but as the name implies they are insensitive to androgens - ie testosterone does not masculinize them. So they develop as female instead since that is the "default" human form.

Tell me, if you found out tomorrow that you or a loved one has the opposite chromosomes or an unusual chromosome set, such as XXY or XO or XXX would that change a thing?

I also don't understand what you mean by actual gender vs appearance of gender? Can you be more specific? There is only appearance of gender and mental state. Any other definition such as chromosomes or fertility have counter examples.

And lastly, since we're forsaking some (or all?) medical treatment for a convicted murderer, where does the slippery slope stop? I can tell you many conditions which are treated in prisons are more tolerable (for me anyway) than gender dysphoria ever was. I'm guessing you'd require all life saving treatments for a prisoner (even a murderer) but would you pay to treat a broken hand? A broken foot? A broken finger?

I'm honestly glad you will never experience the sting of gender dysphoria, it really is hell.

 

Android3.14

(5,402 posts)
34. It is always unfortunate when people find offense when none is intended or even there.
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 02:56 PM
Dec 2014

Any person with gender issues has my sympathy and emotional support, even convicts. That has little to do with what i would do monetarily, and what is the obligation of the state to respond to those issues

By drug therapy, I mean antidepressants, not hormone therapy. And if a convicted killer feels less sadness and no joy because of the drugs, then it is what it is.

With the genetic disorders you mentioned, those would be a separate class of problems, which is unrelated for a number of reasons. If, however, a convicted killer had either of those conditions, it would still be inappropriate for the taxpayer to fund the surgery.

As far as your statement "there is only the appearance of gender and mental state", you are incorrect. Actual gender is the biological sex of the animal by genetics, whether male, female or intersex (Klinefelter's Syndrome, hermaphrodite, etc. ) You are conflating "gender" and "gender identity".

A person of any gender may have one (or more?) of any number of gender identities, but their chromosomes stay the same, at least with current technology.

Consider this. If you had a choice between a surgical solution with hormone replacement, or a solution with a similar morphological outcome in which you could alter your sex at the genetic level, which would you choose? The latter of course. Your own gender dysphoria is a condition with which I can empathize. If we had universal healthcare, I would support that the procedure be on the list. It does not, however, mean I want to pay for a sex change operation for a convicted killer before I would for a free and law-abiding citizen.

As far as the slippery slope, there really is none. The idea that because the state refuses to pay for a sex change operation on a convicted killer this leads to the state refusing to pay for a splint for a broken finger is ludicrous. You need to provide evidence that withholding a specific medical procedure to prisoners has led to the elimination of all medical treatment.

 

MillennialDem

(2,367 posts)
45. I think
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 08:18 PM
Dec 2014

you respect my right to self determination, but I really don't think you get how truly hard being trans is. I mentioned before that I would easily eat any physical injury I've ever had - PERMANENTLY over being forced to live as a man. I'd cut off an arm or leg myself with a rusty knife no problem too if it was that vs live as a man. Again, I really don't think you get how bad it is.

As for your "actual gender" stuff, ok we're playing with semantics and definitions. Really what you said is absolutely not universally what people (even non-trans) think that means, but that's ok. We'll go with it from now on, I understand what you're saying.

Having said that, why are you focused on chromosomes? Really, what damn bit of difference does it make if someone's chromosomes say XX or XY? I've never been genetically tested and they absolutely could be XX for all I know. Is it likely? No, but it is absolutely possible. Would it change a thing for you if you found out you had a chromosomal abnormality?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome

As for your "consider this" hormones and standard treatment vs "chromosomal treatment" you don't know me. What you said is ABSOLUTELY false. I'm a non-op (which I hope does not get you thinking I'm not a real woman or some such crap) so I wouldn't want a chromosomal change - and even if the procedures were absolutely IDENTICAL in results, just one results in XX and one results in XY, I guess the chromosomal change - ie XX but still a non-op trans woman...... would be preferable, but only for one reason - in case someone decided to genetically test me to prove I wasn't a real woman for some damn reason. I doubt that would ever happen, though. I'm not an aspiring professional athlete.

The slippery slope does not exist. I was not saying we should deny prisoners finger splits if they break a finger, I was saying WHY give them splints if we don't also give them gender reassignment? Nothing further.

 

Android3.14

(5,402 posts)
48. I'm unsure what your point is at this juncture
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 07:32 AM
Dec 2014

There are so many contradictions in what you say you would do (cut off limbs, apparently several), what you want (never live as a man), what you claim to have done (embraced the trans lifestyle without a sex-change operation), what you think transgender murderers should have (government funded sex-change operations because that is the only way a transgender can truly be who they want) and the other verbal spaghetti, I must conclude that further debate is unhelpful at best.

Good luck.

 

MillennialDem

(2,367 posts)
51. Educate yourself and good luck. You are condescending to non-ops.
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 02:17 PM
Dec 2014

I have a dick. Yeah. Get over it.

I also have long hair, been on hormones for over a decade, have all my legal documents changed and have had a face job (more important and expensive than sex change) and a boob job. I look like a woman for all intents and purposes with my clothes on.

There was not a single contradiction in my post.

One_Life_To_Give

(6,036 posts)
20. As a precedent setting case this will hurt others
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 07:43 AM
Dec 2014

Setting aside my own doubts about the benefits of SRS to Ms Kosilek. This ruling sets a precedent that will be used nationwide in determining how to care for incarcerated individuals with Gender Identity Disorder. Wouldn't be surprised to see a Dr. Zucker referenced in a multitude of cases as justification for prison officials transphobic judgements.

Also question that by 24months post SRS, that you couldn't put a transwoman into a female prison system.

 

Android3.14

(5,402 posts)
31. Putting a limb in a cast is not surgery
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 12:59 PM
Dec 2014

Elective surgery is surgery that is scheduled in advance because it does not involve a medical emergency.

This is cosmetic surgery, which is even less "elective" than "elective surgery."

 

MillennialDem

(2,367 posts)
33. Wow......
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 01:09 PM
Dec 2014

I don't know how much to be offended by telling me surgery for my condition is cosmetic and less than elective. I said that in another response that I really am glad you don't know the sting of gender dysphoria. I could not live another day in this world as a man.

But why are you drawing the line at surgery vs non surgical treatments? Really what is the difference between paying for a cast for a prisoner and paying for a surgery outside of the cost? Yes one is surgery and the other is not but why the dividing line at surgery? Neither is technically required to live so I can't see any kind of emergency vs elective vs cosmetic argument here.

In this case I know what's in question is a particular surgery, but would you deny hormones to a transgender inmate too? Those are not surgery. How about facial hair removal or voice therapy - those are also not surgeries.

 

Android3.14

(5,402 posts)
35. As I noted upthread
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 03:01 PM
Dec 2014

This particular slippery slope argument is ludicrous until you provide evidence to support it. The offense you feel is unintentional and counter to my actual regard for persons in your dilemma. Pragmatically, my language is correct.

One_Life_To_Give

(6,036 posts)
36. According to the Wpath it is sometimes necessary
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 03:44 PM
Dec 2014
hormone therapy and surgery have been found to be medically necessary to alleviate gender dysphoria


International Journal of Transgenderism
World Professional Association for Transgender Health
Standards of Care for the Health of Transsexual,
Transgender, and Gender-Nonconforming People, Version 7

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/about-ama/our-people/member-groups-sections/glbt-advisory-committee/glbt-resources/lgbt-health-resources.page

Attached AMA link includes the Wpath and many more documents and medical experts on the subject.
 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
38. And the Court of Appeals agreed with that position
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 05:52 PM
Dec 2014

Read the opinion, which I posted above, the court clearly stated that such surgery MAY be medically necessary. The problem was in this case the evidence at trial did NOT clearly indicate such treatment was needed in this case. Two doctors testified it was NOT needed in this case.

At that point the Court of Appeals said the Trial Court had to defer to the Department of Corrections decision as to which medical experts to follow NOT rule otherwise. Thus the Court of Appeals ruled that the decision of the Department of Corrections must be upheld if there is any question as to medical necessity. The Trial court did NOT do that and thus the Court of Appeals reverses the decision of the Trial Court and ordered the case dismissed.

One_Life_To_Give

(6,036 posts)
46. It's DOC's choice of Johns Hopkins that concerns the trans community
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 09:59 PM
Dec 2014

It seems odd that the DOC would choose a hospital/Dr in Baltimore when there are so many fine institutions and Dr's right here. Until you consider that Johns Hopkins discontinued performing SRS in 79 and the head of Psychiatry there was a critic of the practice. And that their regular health specialist UMASS had recommended Fenway Health which is very open and accepting of the trans community.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
47. But John Hopkins has a decent reputation within the medical community
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 11:29 PM
Dec 2014

You may not LIKE John Hopkin's position but that is something to be taken up with the Massachusetts Department of Corrections NOT the court AND not it litigation UNLESS you can show that John Hopkins is completely out of the range of opinion on this subject. That is the LAW. Any complaints should be directed at the Massachusetts Department of Corrections NOT the court.

One_Life_To_Give

(6,036 posts)
50. Exception is with Transgender Community
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 11:22 AM
Dec 2014
http://www.tsroadmap.com/info/johns-hopkins.html
Johns Hopkins is the foremost institution in America involved in the repression and pathologization of trans and intersex people.


It's seen as equivalent to asking Rumsfeld if the US should invade Iraq. That is why most people prefer a more neutral party to referee the debate. From which we have the independent expert;

Dr. Levine
acknowledged his belief that prudent professionals would generally
not deny surgery to a fully eligible individual. Still, he
hesitated to declare Dr. Schmidt's approach medically unacceptable.







 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
52. That might be true, but the Court position is who to rely on is up to the DOC not the Courts.
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 04:35 PM
Dec 2014

Thus we back to the Department of Corrections and how it made its decision NOT the court decision. The court kicked it back to the Department of Corrections that is all.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
37. Did two doctors state the opinion no such treatment was needed???
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 05:45 PM
Dec 2014

Read the opinion which I posted above. In that decision the Court had to deal with the fact that two of the doctors that examined the prisoner testified that the surgery was NOT NEEDED. At that point the Court of Appeals said it was up to the Department of Corrections to determine which opinion to follow and the courts would follow that decision.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
42. This thread is about this case, but even the Court of Appeal said such surgery MAY be required
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 06:17 PM
Dec 2014

The court was quite clear if there was no medical dispute as to the need for such surgery, the court would have ordered it. The problem was the lack of medical uniformity in this case and the lack of uniformity meant the Court had to defer to the Department of Corrections when it came to deciding between the two medical positions.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
41. I like the people making comments without first reading the actual opinion.
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 06:14 PM
Dec 2014

The majority decision made several findings:

1. The Department of Corrections had not only permitted the Prisoner to wear women's clothes but had given her hormone treatment and other treatment SHORT of Sex Reassignment Surgery. i.e did everything needed to treat her as a woman EXCEPT the Surgery.

2. It was clear the Prisoner identified herself as a woman and was upset about having male genertia.

3. The Department of Corrections have done everything to accommodate the Prisoner sex change EXCEPT do the surgery AND transfer her to a female prison.

4. In cases where they was no medical dispute of the need for such surgery, Sex Reassignment Surgery was the best way to handle cases like this.

5. Two doctors testified that in this case Sex Reassignment Surgery was NOT needed for the other efforts being done by the Prison was sufficient to minimize the problems associated with being a woman in a male body.

The decision of the Court of Appeals was based on the above paragraphs. There was evidence to support the need for such surgery AND evidence that such surgery was unneeded. In such cases the Court of Appeals ruled that the Courts would defer to the Department of Corrections and its decision in such case. The Court rule that the courts uphold whatever the Department of Corrections had decided to do in cases where there was medical dispute as to the need of such medical treatment. Such deference is NOT Cruel and Unusual Punishment for the issue of the need for medical treatment was in dispute. When they was no medical dispute, then it would be Cruel and Unusual Punishment to deny such treatment, but that is not the factual situation in this case.

The case is interesting for it goes into what is the legal requirements in such cases AND in any case involving Prisoners and the Cruel and Unusual Punishment clause in the Bill of Rights. We may disagree with the decision but it is a good review of the law.

KinMd

(966 posts)
43. Seems to me most commments, even in Massachusetts aren't trans-phobic
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 06:33 PM
Dec 2014

but object to the state paying for the surgery for a murderer who nearly decapitated his victim (who also had a 15yo son from a previous relationship).

madville

(7,408 posts)
49. Elizabeth Warren commented on this issue in 2012
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 09:45 AM
Dec 2014

"Democratic Senate candidate Elizabeth Warren said today she disagrees with a federal judge’s decision to grant a convicted killer’s request for a sex-change operation. “I have to say, I don’t think it’s a good use of taxpayer dollars,” Warren, a Harvard Law School professor, said in an interview on WTKK-FM."



 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
53. So she made a comment in regards to tax money, that was the topic and her answer.
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 04:43 PM
Dec 2014

It was during the election of 2012 and both candidates adopted the same approach, it was a question to them of the best use of tax money NOT care of a prisoner.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/29/michelle-kosilek-ruling-transgender_n_1924424.html

http://www.salon.com/2013/08/23/americas_prisons_fail_transgender_inmates/

Latest Discussions»Latest Breaking News»Ruling overturned on sex-...