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Omaha Steve

(99,494 posts)
Sun Dec 21, 2014, 11:39 AM Dec 2014

Saudi Arabia says won't cut oil output

Source: Reuters

BY RANIA EL GAMAL AND MAHA EL DAHAN

Saudi Arabia said on Sunday it would not cut output to prop up oil markets even if non-OPEC nations did so, in one of the toughest signals yet that the world's top petroleum exporter plans to ride out the market's biggest slump in years.

Referring to countries outside of the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC), Saudi Oil Minister Ali al-Naimi told reporters: "If they want to cut production they are welcome: We are not going to cut, certainly Saudi Arabia is not going to cut."

He added he was "100 percent not pleased" with prices but they would improve, although it was unclear when.

He blamed the fall in prices to half their levels of six months ago on speculators and what he called a lack of cooperation from non-OPEC producers.

FULL story at link.

http://s2.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20141221&t=2&i=1002917791&w=580&fh=&fw=&ll=&pl=&r=LYNXMPEABK02C

Saudi Arabia's Oil Minister Ali al-Naimi talks to journalists before a meeting of OPEC oil ministers at OPEC's headquarters in Vienna November 27, 2014.
CREDIT: REUTERS/HEINZ-PETER BADER


Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/21/us-oil-prices-saudi-idUSKBN0JZ05W20141221

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Saudi Arabia says won't cut oil output (Original Post) Omaha Steve Dec 2014 OP
The benefits of a diversified portfolio, I suppose...? nt MADem Dec 2014 #1
no. cheap production in KSA vs.most other producing nations. elehhhhna Dec 2014 #3
Well, yes, KSA has a very established infrastructure. MADem Dec 2014 #4
Oil will always have a market cosmicone Dec 2014 #6
That's assuming that old paradigms last. MADem Dec 2014 #9
Cowshit and clippings actually work better, but it's work and nobody gets filthy rich that way. nt bemildred Dec 2014 #19
Those companies need to come up with a cowshit-n-clippings processing machine that they rent to MADem Dec 2014 #21
lack of cooperation from non-OPEC producers. anyone know to what this refers belzabubba333 Dec 2014 #2
The US and Russia, mostly. Jeff Murdoch Dec 2014 #23
It's killing Fracking ... Champion Jack Dec 2014 #5
The reason they're doing this is to kill green energy. Spitfire of ATJ Dec 2014 #7
I think they might see the handwriting on the wall, and they're just gonna keep selling until no one MADem Dec 2014 #10
More like the pusher offering free samples to get you hooked. Spitfire of ATJ Dec 2014 #11
Naaah. The pusher already has plenty of customers. I think there's a better drug on the street, MADem Dec 2014 #12
I still think they're trying to get governments to cancel green energy projects... Spitfire of ATJ Dec 2014 #13
They're running out of oil, if the peak oil peeps are to be believed. MADem Dec 2014 #14
It's been known for years they've been lying about their reserves.... Spitfire of ATJ Dec 2014 #15
And they're betting on solar, apparently (makes sense, they've got lots of it in their neck o' the MADem Dec 2014 #22
Reminds me of 2009 jakeXT Dec 2014 #8
This is interesting...J.P. Morgan Connection.. KoKo Dec 2014 #16
I think Ellen Brown wrote about it jakeXT Dec 2014 #17
Thanks for that link! n/t KoKo Dec 2014 #18
Yeah, keep an eye on that issue. bemildred Dec 2014 #20
Agree..something will come out more .. KoKo Dec 2014 #27
A Snip from Ellen Brown in her Report: KoKo Dec 2014 #29
The banks are one of our weapons in international affairs, and that is why they are protected. bemildred Dec 2014 #35
Venezuela and Russia are the ones that'll be hurt the most by this. n/t Calista241 Dec 2014 #24
Yup. SoapBox Dec 2014 #28
Our Pension funds 401-K's could also be hurt: KoKo Dec 2014 #30
yay for price competition and glutted markets. Love the extra money in my pocket. Sunlei Dec 2014 #25
What are you hoping to live on when you can no longer work? KoKo Dec 2014 #31
what I meant is, the state of Utah has more crude than the entire of Saudi Arabia Sunlei Dec 2014 #33
Looks like the Kerry-King Abdullah secret oil deal is going up in smoke. roamer65 Dec 2014 #26
What's going on in the USA Stock Market due to this plunge in KoKo Dec 2014 #32
Qatar and UAE are accusing non-OPEC countries of over production. roamer65 Dec 2014 #34
Wondering if the Saudi's have multiple priorities here... Xolodno Dec 2014 #36
 

elehhhhna

(32,076 posts)
3. no. cheap production in KSA vs.most other producing nations.
Sun Dec 21, 2014, 11:59 AM
Dec 2014

Fracking or offshore exploitation for example cost more than pumping Saudi oil out using conventional methods.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
4. Well, yes, KSA has a very established infrastructure.
Sun Dec 21, 2014, 12:05 PM
Dec 2014

And it's relatively available, their product, without much drama--it's light and sweet, and needs very little refining, for the most part.

That said, the fact that they aren't "holding back" hoping for better prices down the road tells me that they can afford to make less on their product as a consequence of smart investments over the past half century bringing the bacon (pardon the expression) home--i.e. they are less dependent on oil than many other nations to get by, day-to-day. They've diversified.

It could also mean they realize that the days of oil are numbered, that solar and wind are ascendant, and they might as well sell the stuff while people still want to buy it, because there will come a day when no one wants what they've got...no one wants to be sitting on a warehouse full of buggy whips when the automobile becomes king, after all.

 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
6. Oil will always have a market
Sun Dec 21, 2014, 01:31 PM
Dec 2014

even if all cars went solar.

Oil is needed in making fertilizers, plastics and other materials, the use of which is going to increase.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
9. That's assuming that old paradigms last.
Sun Dec 21, 2014, 01:52 PM
Dec 2014

Perhaps some genius will find a way to make ceramics cheaply, that are thin and light and strong. Who wouldn't prefer a ceramic piece of tupperware if the weight was the same? As for fertilizers, what did farmers do before them? Maybe we need to go back to cowshit and clippings...?

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
19. Cowshit and clippings actually work better, but it's work and nobody gets filthy rich that way. nt
Sun Dec 21, 2014, 04:15 PM
Dec 2014

MADem

(135,425 posts)
21. Those companies need to come up with a cowshit-n-clippings processing machine that they rent to
Sun Dec 21, 2014, 05:05 PM
Dec 2014

big farms that processes the "business" and spreads it efficiently, without the stanky-stanky, and without the mess.

One way or another, they need to find a way to make their money and not kill us at the same time!

Jeff Murdoch

(168 posts)
23. The US and Russia, mostly.
Sun Dec 21, 2014, 06:04 PM
Dec 2014

Plus if they can derail solar and wind for another 30 years like they did last time, it's a sweet bonus.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
10. I think they might see the handwriting on the wall, and they're just gonna keep selling until no one
Sun Dec 21, 2014, 02:36 PM
Dec 2014

wants to buy....?

MADem

(135,425 posts)
12. Naaah. The pusher already has plenty of customers. I think there's a better drug on the street,
Sun Dec 21, 2014, 02:45 PM
Dec 2014

and it's only a matter of time before solar and wind are the new kids on the block. I wouldn't be surprised if the House of Saud is already heavily invested in those technologies, along with other forward-looking enterprises.

The pusher wants to sell his inventory for as long as people keep buying, no matter what the price point. Even a small profit is better than none.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
13. I still think they're trying to get governments to cancel green energy projects...
Sun Dec 21, 2014, 02:58 PM
Dec 2014

One of the things their stooges do is compare cost curves as if PRICE is the final word.

Forget the environment.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
14. They're running out of oil, if the peak oil peeps are to be believed.
Sun Dec 21, 2014, 03:04 PM
Dec 2014

Their oil fields are o-l-d and have been in use for a long, long time. In two decades, some say, they'll be largely played out. I think the Saudis are looking at a post-oil economy already, but they'll keep selling until it's no longer cost-effective to do so.

See:

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-30047096


What will happen to Saudis and Kuwaitis when they run out of oil? An Arabic hashtag expressing that fear has now been used a million times.

Early last week, an Arabic hashtag that translates to 'Your job after oil runs out...' begun to trend mostly in Saudi Arabia but also in neighbouring Kuwait. Citizens of these countries used it to make jokes, but there was also serious contemplation of a future without their once abundant oil wealth. Some Saudis contemplated returning to a simpler life style and perhaps becoming shepherds. Others were a bit more pessimistic about their nation's future. "I'm unemployed and there are another million like me, so how much worse will it get when oil runs out?" one man commented on Twitter. Despite being the largest oil producer in the region, Saudi Arabia has had a longstanding issue with unemployment.

Saudis are feeling insecure because oil prices recently hit a four-year low. That doesn't in itself tell us anything about oil supply - indeed if it was running out the price might be expected to rise - but in 2011 a Citigroup report warned that Saudi might run out of oil to export by 2030. Inside the country, many believe that the kingdom is not ready for a future without oil. One Saudi tweeted: "I fear we will say we wasted our oil in luxury and opulence and didn't make use of it in scientific advances that will benefit us and the coming generations."

The International Monetary Fund has recently urged the Saudi government to spend less and use its money better for a time when oil runs out. Over the last few years, Saudi has spent more on welfare and is now embarking on large infrastructure projects. But some of the comments online were critical of government's 'generosity' in foreign aid. "I would take back the financial aid we handed to countries left and right...we have more right to that money," one of the few female Saudis who commented said.

Despite its oil reserves, ordinary people in Saudi have expressed anxiety over the economy in the recent past. Back in July, people used the hashtag "the salary does not meet my needs" and discussed the financial struggles some people face even in one of the world's wealthiest nations. The fear of a post-oil era extended to neighbouring Kuwait, albeit amongst a much smaller population. Kuwaitis also became active using the hashtag to express similar concerns on social media. One Kuwaiti commented "I pray to God not to see that day because this generation can't be self-sufficient".


They see the handwriting on the wall.
 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
15. It's been known for years they've been lying about their reserves....
Sun Dec 21, 2014, 03:11 PM
Dec 2014

Then you have the NONSENSE of Republicans claiming God is refilling the oil fields.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
22. And they're betting on solar, apparently (makes sense, they've got lots of it in their neck o' the
Sun Dec 21, 2014, 05:10 PM
Dec 2014

woods)....

http://www.forbes.com/sites/dannykennedy/2012/12/10/saudis-invest-heavily-in-solar-just-as-the-us-tries-to-catch-up-to-saudis-in-oil/


There wasn’t much coverage earlier this month of the Saudi Arabia‘s decision to invest $100 billion in solar power. Instead there was a lot of frothy coverage of an International Energy Agency report suggesting the USA could overtake Saudi Arabia as an oil producer by 2020 if a lot of dubious assumptions panned out.

Likewise there wasn’t a lot of interest earlier this year when Warren Buffett, through MidAmerican Holdings, put over $2 billion into one solar project in California. Instead there was a lot of noise and grandstanding when the US government picked the wrong bet and lost a quarter as much in Solyndra.

The reality is that solar power has come of age and is now a bankable technology attracting the likes of Buffett and Google and KKR and Blackstone and Walmart and MetLife because it garners double-digit returns on investment. Smart money and the Saudi’s know solar works; why don’t we?

Take only the news from King Abdullah City for a moment, where spokespeople say they’re targeting around 41,000 megawatts of solar capacity within two decades[ii]. Can you imagine the hype if 41 nuclear power plants were seriously canvassed to be built anywhere in the next 20 years?....

jakeXT

(10,575 posts)
8. Reminds me of 2009
Sun Dec 21, 2014, 01:39 PM
Dec 2014

...

He says his members in the home heating oil business, like Sean Cota of Bellows Falls, Vt., were the first to notice the effects a few years ago when prices seemed to disconnect from the basic fundamentals of supply and demand. Cota says there was plenty of product at the supply terminals, but the prices kept going up and up.

"We've had three price changes during the day where we pick up products, actually don't know what we paid for it and we'll go out and we'll sell that to the retail customer guessing at what the price was," Cota remembered. "The volatility is being driven by the huge amounts of money and the huge amounts of leverage that is going in to these markets."

About the same time, hedge fund manager Michael Masters reached the same conclusion. Masters' expertise is in tracking the flow of investments into and out of financial markets and he noticed huge amounts of money leaving stocks for commodities and oil futures, most of it going into index funds, betting the price of oil was going to go up.

Asked who was buying this "paper oil," Masters told Kroft, "The California pension fund. Harvard Endowment. Lots of large institutional investors. And, by the way, other investors, hedge funds, Wall Street trading desks were following right behind them, putting money - sovereign wealth funds were putting money in the futures markets as well. So you had all these investors putting money in the futures markets. And that was driving the price up."

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/did-speculation-fuel-oil-price-swings-08-01-2009/

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
16. This is interesting...J.P. Morgan Connection..
Sun Dec 21, 2014, 03:38 PM
Dec 2014

from the article:

Yet when Congress began holding hearings last summer and asked Wall Street banker Lawrence Eagles of J.P. Morgan what role excessive speculation played in rising oil prices, the answer was little to none. "We believe that high energy prices are fundamentally a result of supply and demand," he said in his testimony.


Wasn't Jamie Diamon/J.P.Morgan up there on Capitol Hill lobbying Congress on the "Cromnibus" Bill to get the provision of Dodd-Frank out that would put restrictions on the Speculation Trading by Hedge Funds removed so that the FDIC would continue to be responsible for losses rather than the Hedge Funds? Someone got left holding the bag when OPEC lowered the Oil Prices...and someone made a bundle on the short.


Connection there?

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
20. Yeah, keep an eye on that issue.
Sun Dec 21, 2014, 04:22 PM
Dec 2014

it looks like cheap oil is here for a while, and what happens to all those derivatives will clarify who is full of shit real soon now.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
29. A Snip from Ellen Brown in her Report:
Sun Dec 21, 2014, 10:02 PM
Dec 2014
http://ellenbrown.com/2014/12/19/russian-roulette-taxpayers-could-be-on-the-hook-for-trillions-in-oil-derivatives/

Ellen Brown is an attorney, founder of the Public Banking Institute, and author of twelve books including the best-selling Web of Debt. Her latest book, The Public Bank Solution, explores successful public banking models historically and globally. Her 200+ blog articles are at EllenBrown.com.

War on the Ruble

-------------

If the plan was to break the ruble, it worked. The ruble has dropped by more than 60% against the dollar since January.

On December 16th, the Russian central bank counterattacked by raising interest rates to 17% in order to stem “capital flight” – the dumping of rubles on the currency markets. Deposits are less likely to be withdrawn and exchanged for dollars if they are earning a high rate of return.


The move was also a short squeeze on the short sellers attempting to crash the ruble. Short sellers sell currency they don’t have, forcing down the price; then cover by buying at the lower price, pocketing the difference. But the short squeeze worked only briefly, as trading in the ruble was quickly suspended, allowing short sellers to cover their bets. Who has the power to shut down a currency exchange? One suspects that more than mere speculation was at work.

Protecting Our Money from Wall Street Gambling

The short sellers were saved, but the derivatives banks will still get killed if oil prices don’t go back up soon. At least they would have been killed before the bailout ban was lifted. Now, it seems, that burden could fall on depositors and taxpayers. Did the Obama administration make a deal with the big derivatives banks to save them from Kerry’s clandestine economic warfare at taxpayer expense?

Whatever happened behind closed doors, we the people could again be stuck with the tab. We will continue to be at the mercy of the biggest banks until depository banking is separated from speculative investment banking. Reinstating the Glass-Steagall Act is supported not only by Elizabeth Warren and others on the left but by prominent voices such as David Stockman’s on the right.


Another alternative for protecting our funds from Wall Street gambling can be done at the local level. Our state and local governments can establish publicly-owned banks; and our monies, public and private, can be moved into them.

More.........interesting read whether one agrees or disagrees.

http://ellenbrown.com/2014/12/19/russian-roulette-taxpayers-could-be-on-the-hook-for-trillions-in-oil-derivatives/

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
35. The banks are one of our weapons in international affairs, and that is why they are protected.
Tue Dec 23, 2014, 10:55 AM
Dec 2014

The current attempt to destroy the Ruble is a perfect example.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
31. What are you hoping to live on when you can no longer work?
Sun Dec 21, 2014, 10:21 PM
Dec 2014

Do you have savings? A 401-K or Other?

Or, are you wealthy and don't need to bother with that stuff because of Indie funds from Family left to you?

Sunlei

(22,651 posts)
33. what I meant is, the state of Utah has more crude than the entire of Saudi Arabia
Sun Dec 21, 2014, 11:01 PM
Dec 2014

No longer will opec be able to price set barrels of crude. Plenty of other countries are willing to sell(wholesale) for less. I use a lot of gas and the lower gas price means I spend less on gasoline. I mean what is the worse that can happen if Saudi Arabia disappears off the face of the earth? A couple stocks crash other investments go up.

No money from family. I left a difficult home situation at age 16 with nothing, and never looked back.

roamer65

(36,744 posts)
26. Looks like the Kerry-King Abdullah secret oil deal is going up in smoke.
Sun Dec 21, 2014, 08:50 PM
Dec 2014

The Chinese are bailing out the Russians with currency swaps. It's not bankrupting Putin, it's driving him to forge a stronger alliance with the Chinese. I say world war within 2 years.

With so much of the U.S. oil boom funded by junk bonds, it was a really bad gamble. Now CDS's on that junk paper are through the roof and we just may have another crisis like 2008. Venezuela is toast at this point.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
32. What's going on in the USA Stock Market due to this plunge in
Sun Dec 21, 2014, 10:23 PM
Dec 2014

Oil Price is yet to be revealed. Junk Bonds, Hedge Fund "over commitment" and CDS that Jamie Diamon lobbied Congress about to EXCLUDE from the "CROMNIBUS BILL" ...all would seem to be clues as to what this was about and what has not been revealed. We probably wont know for awhile.

roamer65

(36,744 posts)
34. Qatar and UAE are accusing non-OPEC countries of over production.
Sun Dec 21, 2014, 11:16 PM
Dec 2014

They are demanding they cut production first....just heard it on Bloomberg Asia Edge.

Xolodno

(6,384 posts)
36. Wondering if the Saudi's have multiple priorities here...
Tue Dec 23, 2014, 12:20 PM
Dec 2014

China recently agreed to cut consumption and "green up" is energy use. Which means....less need for Arab oil.

Then you have USA/Canada ramping up production. Which competes with Arab oil at higher prices.

Iran is the other big dog on the street with oil, and with a nuclear deal, sanctions will be eased and guess what....more competition against Arab oil.

Russia is another large oil producer....a producer OPEC has courted many times and Russia has some influence on Iran. Putin has always maintained he prefers Russia to be independent of OPEC. This may change his mind.

Flood the market, kill green initiatives (get people to think cheap oil is here to stay as evidenced in this thread), and get some major non-OPEC nations on board (Saudi Prince: So you see Tsar Putin, we can guarantee you price that is sustainable for you and should we have to flood the market, you would know in advance and could prepare).

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