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flamingdem

(39,304 posts)
Sun Mar 20, 2016, 11:57 AM Mar 2016

Vote Sanders. Everyone else will send your kids to war


http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2016/03/19/vote-sanders-everyone-else-will-send-your-kids-war/aJzUYVFOaivEbPy3BiButO/story.html?event=event25

Intervention is the central question of American foreign policy. When, where, and how should the United States project power abroad? Our answers help shape the world.

Debate over intervention has naturally become part of this season’s presidential campaign. Most candidates sing from the same foreign policy hymnal. They share deeply ingrained assumptions: The United States is the indispensable nation that must lead the world; this leadership requires toughness; and toughness is best demonstrated by the threat or use of force. It is the Cold War consensus, untouched by the 21st century.
Only one of the remaining candidates has broken from this orthodoxy. Bernie Sanders is often described as inexperienced in world affairs. Certainly he has spent far fewer hours thinking about global issues than his Democratic rival, Hillary Clinton. Yet recently he has found a theme: the long-term effects of intervention. Rather than cheer every show of American force, Sanders reminds us of the parlous consequences of past assaults on other countries.

This is a sharp break from our foreign policy catechism. Yet it is hardly new. Ever since the United States began intervening abroad more than a century ago, loud voices have been raised in dissent. Today’s protesters against foreign intervention are not a marginal fringe — “wacko birds,” as John McCain famously called them. They are deeply rooted in American politics. Unfortunately for Sanders, history shows that in the end, voters usually reject them.

Sanders does not simply censure American intervention as a vague or abstract concept. He has singled out several of the most misbegotten CIA operations, including the 1953 coup against Prime Minister Mohammad Mossadegh in Iran, the next year’s overthrow of President Jacobo Arbenz in Guatemala, the 1961 Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba, and the Contra war in Nicaragua during the 1980s. Moving to more recent history, he has criticized Clinton for promoting intervention against the Libyan dictator Moammar Khadaffy in 2011 — a project that now seems disastrously misconceived.

Clinton proudly claims her place in the interventionist mainstream. So do all the Republican presidential candidates — including Donald Trump, who despite some unorthodox views remains an unapologetic champion of raw power. Only Sanders is truly skeptical of what American intervention can accomplish. He has shown himself to be just as far outside the Washington consensus on foreign policy as he is on domestic policy.

By rejecting the interventionist paradigm, Sanders places himself in a rich American tradition. It dates back to the movement against US annexation of the Philippines in 1898-99. “You have no right at the cannon’s mouth to impose on an unwilling people your Declaration of Independence and your Constitution and your notions of freedom and notions of what is good!” thundered Senator George Frisbie Hoar of Massachusetts. Mark Twain lamented that American leaders had “invited our clean young men to shoulder a discredited musket and do bandit’s work.”


115 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Vote Sanders. Everyone else will send your kids to war (Original Post) flamingdem Mar 2016 OP
Bernie Is The Only Antidote To Rampant DNC DWS DLC HRC Third-Way Corporatist Corruption cantbeserious Mar 2016 #1
Truer words were never posted! merrily Mar 2016 #52
For real! SammyWinstonJack Mar 2016 #54
Exactly! nt valerief Mar 2016 #2
Also, vote Sanders to remove your children's debt-slave collars. /nt NCjack Mar 2016 #3
Also vote Sanders to stop the fossil fuel hemmoraging and begin the mass repair of our ecosystem. Dont call me Shirley Mar 2016 #4
My #1 reason to vote Bernie2016 flamingdem Mar 2016 #5
Recommend.. KoKo Mar 2016 #6
War Bob_Roony Mar 2016 #7
Here's a link to Bernies page on foreign policy and war. highoverheadspace Mar 2016 #28
"Over 2,500 innocent people died in this bombing" oberliner Mar 2016 #33
The BBC has the number of victims at 2,100, but other counts are much higher. highoverheadspace Mar 2016 #41
The information at that link you are sharing says that less than 1,500 civilians were killed oberliner Mar 2016 #43
Thanks for keeping this issue alive. highoverheadspace Mar 2016 #44
Thanks for the links! nt Duval Mar 2016 #47
Your welcome. highoverheadspace Mar 2016 #68
Once again, your link does not support your claim oberliner Mar 2016 #91
Of course you do! LOL. Your attempt at distraction is noted. As is your concern for all those highoverheadspace Mar 2016 #100
After reading your posts up to the one I am responding to, I think you should seek mental help Dragonfli Mar 2016 #103
your sourcing RT!! PatrynXX Mar 2016 #71
Its a viideo of the actual bombing! highoverheadspace Mar 2016 #86
sourcing RT sure PatrynXX Mar 2016 #98
You're right to consider the source, BUT... ihaveaquestion Mar 2016 #99
I agree with highoverheadspace....... dixiegrrrrl Mar 2016 #94
Sanctions DID work in Iraq. LS_Editor Mar 2016 #79
Indeed. 500,000 children dying was "worth it" to Albright. n/t eridani Mar 2016 #85
Spot on! highoverheadspace Mar 2016 #87
Militarily, they worked. In the best interests of the U.S., they worked. LS_Editor Mar 2016 #101
It's really too bad that sociopathology is now the standard for degermining-- eridani Mar 2016 #112
Now? LS_Editor Mar 2016 #113
We've been saying it forever passiveporcupine Mar 2016 #40
+!0000000000000000!!!!!!! 99th_Monkey Mar 2016 #8
K & R! TIME TO PANIC Mar 2016 #9
Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Mar 2016 #10
Today is the anniversary of the invasion of Iraq . . FairWinds Mar 2016 #11
+ 10 n/t 99th_Monkey Mar 2016 #17
I think about this a lot catchnrelease Mar 2016 #12
We have an all-volunteer army oberliner Mar 2016 #34
I know there isn't one now catchnrelease Mar 2016 #35
I don't either. nt Duval Mar 2016 #49
Nope no draft, and no jobs and outrageous higher educational makes the military the only SammyWinstonJack Mar 2016 #60
Math says there is NO Path to Victory for Bern. Cryptoad Mar 2016 #13
Yet he is the most important candidate running flamingdem Mar 2016 #15
8.5 million voters so far dont think so...... Cryptoad Mar 2016 #32
You aren't very good at "math" are you? Specifically... kristopher Mar 2016 #18
+1 BeanMusical Mar 2016 #74
Hey-Ho! Imagine our GREAT fortune! Plucketeer Mar 2016 #19
Off topic. Phlem Mar 2016 #24
So the math says there is only a path to war? Brother_Love Mar 2016 #31
That was a rather pathetic attempt to change the subject. arcane1 Mar 2016 #42
Math says More War. n/t libdem4life Mar 2016 #45
math says there IS a path, just that it is unlikely Fast Walker 52 Mar 2016 #59
The rampant abuse of the word "math" around here pains me hellofromreddit Mar 2016 #88
Yup. Major Hogwash Mar 2016 #14
K&R..... daleanime Mar 2016 #16
We have a volunteere military now. LisaM Mar 2016 #20
How long do you you think this will last? dogman Mar 2016 #21
Ask today's edition of vets Plucketeer Mar 2016 #26
Dear Ms. Lisa . . (and Oberliner) FairWinds Mar 2016 #39
Right on. This is how they did it in Medieval Europe. The Lords send their libdem4life Mar 2016 #46
I think that isva good point but LisaM Mar 2016 #56
Worse than the draft navarth Mar 2016 #58
many "volunteere" because they can't find a job or afford to go to school corkhead Mar 2016 #73
Shhh shenmue Mar 2016 #80
K & R for this thread Plucketeer Mar 2016 #22
Bernie is a pacifist ? stonecutter357 Mar 2016 #23
Right, because he voted for funding the war during the war? Phlem Mar 2016 #27
Fact Checking Bernie. stonecutter357 Mar 2016 #30
Fact checking your facts. Phlem Mar 2016 #37
Her supporters know that is not accurate but peddle it regardless. n/t Jefferson23 Mar 2016 #65
That is because David Brock's Big Lie strategy is still in play. Dragonfli Mar 2016 #104
The arresting of activists is completely ludicrous indeed. JonLeibowitz Mar 2016 #76
REC x1,000,000,000. And I challenge HRC supporters to rebut this. Fast Walker 52 Mar 2016 #25
no takers, not surprisingly... Fast Walker 52 Mar 2016 #95
K&R for taking zentrum Mar 2016 #29
K & R.Thanks for this important post. appalachiablue Mar 2016 #36
Since her Syria "no fly zone" idea angrychair Mar 2016 #38
K&R. nt Duval Mar 2016 #48
Bernie is losing leftofcool Mar 2016 #50
Bernie already approved sending your kids to war in the Balkans and Afghanistan. SunSeeker Mar 2016 #51
.... Phlem Mar 2016 #53
He is, for being a hypocrite. Your kids wound up just as dead in the Balkan and Afghanistan Wars. SunSeeker Mar 2016 #55
Bottom line folks. If Hillary sends your kids to war, it is for a noble purpose. Lucky Luciano Mar 2016 #61
Are you taking up for the point of Hillary Clinton or Kissinger? DhhD Mar 2016 #67
Kissinger is a war criminal Bob_Roony Mar 2016 #72
You missed the point of the sarcasm in your reply. DhhD Mar 2016 #66
I'll take a carefully considered, well thought out maybe LadyHawkAZ Mar 2016 #81
That is some messed up reasoning. Phlem Mar 2016 #106
The OP does not make distinctions about wars. SunSeeker Mar 2016 #107
The OP suggests Bernie will not approve any wars, which is plainly false. Phlem Mar 2016 #109
And Hillary is for perpetual war. Phlem Mar 2016 #108
H.A. Goodman is a Republican idiot, and is wrong. SunSeeker Mar 2016 #110
It's alright, I don't believe a word she says. Phlem Mar 2016 #111
'It's the math' is so heartless felix_numinous Mar 2016 #57
That's how I feel when I read most of their posts too. Ned_Devine Mar 2016 #83
It really is the bottom line for me and the main reason I support Bernie Sanders. mountain grammy Mar 2016 #62
Sadly, I won't go into details about who I was around, but it was largely a minority, democratic rwsanders Mar 2016 #63
The way Clinton thinks is dangerous. K&R Jefferson23 Mar 2016 #64
Right you are. PatrickforO Mar 2016 #69
The Clintons and their minions have no respect for the lives of American troops. rhett o rick Mar 2016 #70
Sad.True. And eminently ignorable. Smarmie Doofus Mar 2016 #75
K&R War is the engine, blood of our young is the fuel JEB Mar 2016 #77
I finally realized Hilary does indeed have a vision for our future (and yes she can on this issue) Dragonfli Mar 2016 #114
Dare Anyone To Tell Me The Difference billhicks76 Mar 2016 #78
As a Marine Corps veteran, there's no way I'm voting for an Iraq War supporter Nickel79 Mar 2016 #82
Sanders will send our kids to college--all the others to war. Spotlights things. Like that. lexington filly Mar 2016 #84
Shark Jump Alert!!!! BWAAA, BWAAA, BWAAA! Darb Mar 2016 #89
The Evolution of Hillary Clinton JGug1 Mar 2016 #90
I almost can't wait to see the Democrats' shock the day after Hillary's nomination ... DrBulldog Mar 2016 #92
They are pushing us towards world war maindawg Mar 2016 #93
WHEN will we ever learn???? Fast Walker 52 Mar 2016 #96
And they'll do it with a budget too big to audit... KansDem Mar 2016 #97
I am afraid sanders pacifistic view would prevent him from actually interevening when it is NEEDED beachbum bob Mar 2016 #102
Obama hadn't faced that in his career either before he became POTUS Fumesucker Mar 2016 #115
I've been saying this for months ... AikenYankee Mar 2016 #105

Bob_Roony

(73 posts)
7. War
Sun Mar 20, 2016, 01:44 PM
Mar 2016

Right now, there are 2 contenders that will seriously take US to war: Cruz and Clinton, with Clinton being the worst. I hope Bernie will work it out through diplomacy. ME issues are the most complicated and the most troublesome in world politics today.

If it is Clinton vs Trump, there shouldn't be any doubt in any logical person's mind that Trump will decimate her. The moment Clinton is nominated, Trump will start celebrating and the world should start looking at Trump as the next US president. No doubt about that.

What I don't believe is that Trump will take US to war. He won't. I do believe that his intentions are different than what he says on his campaign trail. Trump is not dumb nor is he juvenile when it comes to tough decision making. Serious people, clear headed people, know this. Do you really think that he is so stupid to believe that he can deport 11 million illegal immigrant? Do you think he is so stupid to believe that he can build this wall with Mexico? and so many other promises he is making that he knows - for a fact - that he can never fulfill. He lies, and he will lie about his lies and he will recant his promises.

I truly doubt that his intentions are the same as he proclaims. Arabs had high hopes when Obama was running and won. He turned out to be a great disappointment. I used to tell those who believed Obama - among Arab Americans - that he is Bushama. They used to attack me. I spoke in front of hundreds and they booed me. Now they regretted it. They started to get worried when he nominated Clinton for Sec. of State. What is the difference between what Bush did in Iraq and what Obama did in Libya? ISIS rules Libya now.

Now they tell me, whenever I have the chance to talk to some of them, that they should have seen it before they voted for Obama.. Some did, most didn't. I hope Bernie will not turn out to be another disappointment if elected.

Sorry for the digression, but I do have a lot to say when time comes.

 

highoverheadspace

(307 posts)
28. Here's a link to Bernies page on foreign policy and war.
Sun Mar 20, 2016, 02:51 PM
Mar 2016
https://berniesanders.com/issues/war-and-peace/ Most of it looks promising although he did go along with some dubious war actions previously. What Israel did to Gaza in July 2014 was truly shameful and should be addressed more deeply. This video truly is revealing and shows the level of atrocities. Over 2,500 innocent people died in this bombing.



On the Feeling the Bern website he explains his policy on Russia which I believe is not wise. Sanctions do not work, they punish innocent people. If a more powerful nation sanctioned the US then we would see this differently. The sanctions in Iran and Iraq backfired. The Cuba Isolation policy was also a huge mistake that led to 65 wasted years of bad diplomacy. Crimea voted to secede regardless of what the US media wants us to believe. Those people are much better off than the 10,000 ethnic Russian East Ukrainians that were killed by the coup imposed Kiev military. The best thing to do to help Russians appreciate the US is to treat them with respect and quit meddling in their backyard. Its well known that the US was behind the coup in Ukraine. http://feelthebern.org/bernie-sanders-on-russia/ Its disappointing to see Bernie on the wrong side of these two issues.


Having wrote that, Clinton and Trump would be just as bad or worse.
 

highoverheadspace

(307 posts)
41. The BBC has the number of victims at 2,100, but other counts are much higher.
Sun Mar 20, 2016, 03:48 PM
Mar 2016

Some sites were reporting over 5,000. Do you have any source to challenge the BBC's lowball number? I'd be curious to see it. And are you fine with what took place there, because it looks like mass murder to me? http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28439404

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
43. The information at that link you are sharing says that less than 1,500 civilians were killed
Sun Mar 20, 2016, 04:15 PM
Mar 2016

From your link:

The UN says at least 2,104 Palestinian died, including 1,462 civilians, of whom 495 were children and 253 women.

That number is more than 1,000 less than the "over 2,500" number you claimed above.

The Gaza Health Ministry give a total casualty figure of 2,310 with 70 percent of them being civilians - which would be around 1,600 (Those numbers are cited on Wikipedia).

I am not sure what the "some sites" are that were reporting over 5,000. Feel free to share a link to such a site if you'd like, but it seems like the UN and Gaza Health Ministry sources ought to be considered fairly reliable.

Of course it is a horrible tragedy when any innocent people are killed, especially children.

That being said, there is no reason to inflate the figures (they are bad enough on their own).
 

highoverheadspace

(307 posts)
44. Thanks for keeping this issue alive.
Sun Mar 20, 2016, 04:26 PM
Mar 2016

Here's a link to Juan Coles site where he cites over 5,000 homes destroyed in that bombing. Now you can take the BBC figures which I mentioned are way lowballed or you can take the word of someone who actually doesn't just do propaganda. http://www.juancole.com/2014/07/israel-plunges-darkness.html

Here's an excerpt from Juan's site: Israel has completely reduced to rubble some 5,000 homes and damaged 26,000. If you figure that Palestinians in Gaza live on average 5 in a dwelling, there would be roughly 340,000 domiciles in Gaza. Israel has therefore destroyed or damaged about ten percent of the housing stock. This is on top of past campaigns of indiscriminate and wanton bombing campaigns. Since Israel keeps Gaza under blockade, it won’t receive the necessary materials to rebuild. The Israelis, having bald-facedly stolen the homes and farms of the people of Gaza, won’t be satisfied until they are forced to sleep in open fields.

Israel has forced some 200,000 Palestinians to flew their homes. But since the Gaza Strip is so small, they have no place to go. Israel won’t let them leave the Strip, but is intensively bombarding it. Some of the places they have taken shelter, including schools and UN refugee shelters, have themselves been bombed by the Israelis.

Fair has more in regards to the numbers and unreported deaths. http://fair.org/blog/2014/08/12/death-in-gaza-some-counts-more-controversial-than-others/

If I was you I would quite relying on what you consider mainstream media for the truth. They have been lying to you for ages. Its time to wake up if you truly want to do what is right for America. Admitting the mainstream media has been lying to you and covering up war crimes is the first step.

 

highoverheadspace

(307 posts)
68. Your welcome.
Sun Mar 20, 2016, 08:30 PM
Mar 2016

I'm simply tired of all the lies, propaganda and killing. It is well past time for Americans to wake up to the fact we are an empire that is supporting many horrible regimes that are committing atrocities. This is all taking place under a massive layer of propaganda that is across the board. The truth is out there, but now even Google is burying stories that don't fit the mainstream agenda and the mainstream is run by the same oligarchs that are robbing us blind and have bought off our congress.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
91. Once again, your link does not support your claim
Mon Mar 21, 2016, 09:15 AM
Mar 2016

You have provided no source for your claim that over 2,500 innocent people were killed. You then expanded that claim to suggest that some sources claim that over 5,000 innocent people were killed, but you also have no source for this. Neither the Juan Cole article nor the FAIR article makes any such claim (because it is not true).

You can't just make things up.

Perhaps you should take your own advice in terms of what media you rely on to get the truth. If you think that the Gaza Health Ministry and the United Nations are not reputable sources for information, then you maybe ought to reflect on why you think that.

One can oppose Israel's actions during the 2014 Gaza bombing (as I do) without inflating casualty figures.

 

highoverheadspace

(307 posts)
100. Of course you do! LOL. Your attempt at distraction is noted. As is your concern for all those
Mon Mar 21, 2016, 11:07 AM
Mar 2016

thousands killed. Thanks for playing and thanks for bringing attention to the fact that Israel killed all those people just the same. Have a nice day.

Dragonfli

(10,622 posts)
103. After reading your posts up to the one I am responding to, I think you should seek mental help
Mon Mar 21, 2016, 11:56 AM
Mar 2016

Your complete indifference and callousness to over (at lowest estimate) 1000 murdered innocent women and children sends a chill down my spine akin to what I felt after viewing an interview of a mass murderer and sociopath (I don't remember which one, but the interview was done in prison).

Some of the targets were hospitals and shelters set up in order to gather the civilians together for the purpose of disposing of them.
(honeypots of death I would call them). We had learned they were targeted on purpose, yet you at least give the appearance of approval of the murder of children.

Tell me, are you capable of feeling an emotion known as empathy?

The numbers are disputable and have been disputed, short of doing a physical count of the shredded remains of those murdered women and children I do not think either of us can be sure of the exact number.

But even in your defense which consisted of quoting the lowest number of any record (that you appear to assume must be somehow undeniable), I didn't much notice that bit as my attention was caught by how when you spoke of how many were innocent women and children, it sounded as if you were describing non living "objects" to me.

I have a feeling about you that only a professional in the field of psychiatry could confirm and I do think you should get yourself evaluated as certain ailments can cause one to be unsafe to the community around them.

 

highoverheadspace

(307 posts)
86. Its a viideo of the actual bombing!
Mon Mar 21, 2016, 07:54 AM
Mar 2016

Who cares where it came from. Don't tell me you can watch that video and then only worry about where it came from? Man, thousands of people died and all you have to say is "Your sourcing Rt?" Your humanity meter is broken.

ihaveaquestion

(2,420 posts)
99. You're right to consider the source, BUT...
Mon Mar 21, 2016, 11:04 AM
Mar 2016

CNN can't be everywhere or report every story. Nor do they actually want to - they're only interested in what sells ad time.

Just like Fox, MSNBC or anyone else you'd like to name. "News" isn't news anymore, it's entertainment.

As always, "Trust, but Verify" is a good rule of thumb - for all sources.



LS_Editor

(893 posts)
79. Sanctions DID work in Iraq.
Mon Mar 21, 2016, 12:31 AM
Mar 2016

That's why there was no reason to invade Iraq and overthrow Saddam.

You can't have it both ways.

 

highoverheadspace

(307 posts)
87. Spot on!
Mon Mar 21, 2016, 08:00 AM
Mar 2016

Thanks Eridani. Proof that the sanctions only served to harm innocent people who had nothing to do with the government. These people defending sanctions are simply defending the alternative to direct killing. They don't seem to mind the effects of sanctions which include indirect deaths due to lack of medical supplies, infrastructure, food and jobs. Imagine if a more powerful country simply decided to "sanction" the US and drive our country into the dirt. I have a feeling their tune would change in short thrift regarding the effects of sanctions. Imagine how many lives could have been different in Iraq if sanctions were not put in place by the US and the wars never began. All of this is US imperialism. Its not for democracy. Its for control of resources and geopolitical gain for a select few who are enriching themselves more and more. Thanks for your post.

LS_Editor

(893 posts)
101. Militarily, they worked. In the best interests of the U.S., they worked.
Mon Mar 21, 2016, 11:09 AM
Mar 2016

Saddam was contained and no real threat to anyone. President W. was looking for a fight.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
112. It's really too bad that sociopathology is now the standard for degermining--
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 02:45 AM
Mar 2016

--foreign policy success.

 

99th_Monkey

(19,326 posts)
8. +!0000000000000000!!!!!!!
Sun Mar 20, 2016, 01:47 PM
Mar 2016

This is THE ONE ISSUE that compelled Telsi Gabbard to heroically fall on her sword with the DNC over.

 

FairWinds

(1,717 posts)
11. Today is the anniversary of the invasion of Iraq . .
Sun Mar 20, 2016, 01:58 PM
Mar 2016

probably the most evil act ever perpetrated by the US . .

All the candidates should be asked about the Iraq war today.

In case there are any lingering doubts, it was known at the time that there were no WMD's . .

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=3350402

catchnrelease

(1,942 posts)
12. I think about this a lot
Sun Mar 20, 2016, 02:04 PM
Mar 2016

I have 3 grand kids in their middle teens right now. I fear for them every time I think of one of the interventionists being elected. I don't want them to end up as cannon fodder. Since they can't vote yet, it's my responsibility to try to protect them with my vote. I see this as a life and death decision.

SammyWinstonJack

(44,129 posts)
60. Nope no draft, and no jobs and outrageous higher educational makes the military the only
Sun Mar 20, 2016, 06:35 PM
Mar 2016

option for many young people seeking both a decent paying job and/or higher education.

And most know that. Probably why so many of them are supporting Bernie.

They feel hopeful they won't have to risk their lives for either.

Cryptoad

(8,254 posts)
13. Math says there is NO Path to Victory for Bern.
Sun Mar 20, 2016, 02:11 PM
Mar 2016

Must win each and every remaining primaries by 58% and so far he has only won six states by that big of a percentage=No Path....... good luck with that.

flamingdem

(39,304 posts)
15. Yet he is the most important candidate running
Sun Mar 20, 2016, 02:12 PM
Mar 2016

and this effort will reverberate short and long term.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
18. You aren't very good at "math" are you? Specifically...
Sun Mar 20, 2016, 02:29 PM
Mar 2016

...this is false:
"Must win each and every remaining primaries by 58%"

He has to AVERAGE a 58% win across all the remaining states. He is expected to do very well with a 20-30+ point margin in many of the upcoming states. That means he is also going to have states that he DOESN'T have a wide margin or even loses a bit - states like Arizona for example.

If you are going to make sweeping BS claims and then use as your basis "math", you might want to hone your reasoning skills to buttress your arithmetic.

 

Plucketeer

(12,882 posts)
19. Hey-Ho! Imagine our GREAT fortune!
Sun Mar 20, 2016, 02:29 PM
Mar 2016

Having a rare cross of corporate toad and and blood & treasure rattling warhawk to fall back on!

Phlem

(6,323 posts)
24. Off topic.
Sun Mar 20, 2016, 02:45 PM
Mar 2016

We're talking about war here....... like the Iraq war, you know, like the kind your pro war candidate voted for.

 

hellofromreddit

(1,182 posts)
88. The rampant abuse of the word "math" around here pains me
Mon Mar 21, 2016, 08:07 AM
Mar 2016

Math is just a system to structure thoughts.

"Math" isn't making political claims. You are, and you're trying to lend those claims some authenticity by slapping on an otherwise neutral label.

If anything, what you're doing is the very opposite of mathematical thinking.

LisaM

(27,762 posts)
20. We have a volunteere military now.
Sun Mar 20, 2016, 02:31 PM
Mar 2016

No one sends kids to war, they choose it. I say this not in defense of war.

dogman

(6,073 posts)
21. How long do you you think this will last?
Sun Mar 20, 2016, 02:38 PM
Mar 2016

Do you think there will be enough volunteers to serve their 10th to 12th tour overseas.

 

Plucketeer

(12,882 posts)
26. Ask today's edition of vets
Sun Mar 20, 2016, 02:48 PM
Mar 2016

how they feel about choosing to go into a war zone - the second, third, fourth times. Or investigate how well they've integrated into society when they've had their fill of service.
Sure, there's some gung-ho types (at least they were when they enlisted - I was one of those BTW, but my expenses paid trip to an exotic land was to Vietnam), but there's also a LOT of veterans who are there because it looked like a viable way to get an education and have a fair paycheck in this era of shrinking job choices. You're chances at scoring by signing up are about like your chances with a slot machine. Well - save for the fact the slot machine won't shoot at you.

 

FairWinds

(1,717 posts)
39. Dear Ms. Lisa . . (and Oberliner)
Sun Mar 20, 2016, 03:31 PM
Mar 2016

respectfully disagree. You can call them "volunteers" if you want, but we in
Vets For Peace know better. In fact, it is a "Poverty Draft" in which the vast
majority of middle class and above kids don't go anywhere near the line of fire.

Military recruiters troll our low income school constantly, but don't even bother
going to the elite schools (Like St. Eds or St. Ignatius in Cleveland).

Why, you ask? It's because kids at the elite and or wealthy schools have OPTIONS.
Kids from low income families do not have those sorts of options.

Maybe you are OK with this arrangement - but I am not. And neither is
Vets For Peace.

 

libdem4life

(13,877 posts)
46. Right on. This is how they did it in Medieval Europe. The Lords send their
Sun Mar 20, 2016, 04:42 PM
Mar 2016

slaves and poor tenants to form the walls of humans meeting the other wall of humans, while the Lords trotted behind them and the Kings sat on opposite hilltops, eating grapes.

Same story...different millennia.

ETA: It's a jobs program for the poor who can't find work or can't get benefits. Same for the Vets when they come back, if they come back. "Sorry, sucks to be you." Shameful.

 

Plucketeer

(12,882 posts)
22. K & R for this thread
Sun Mar 20, 2016, 02:40 PM
Mar 2016

and the harmonious responses to it.

And let's hear it for Tulsi Gabbard for Bernie's VP. A fine woman of integrity AND a Veteran - which we need SO BADLY on the top rungs for balance! It's SO EASY to send someone else's kids or family members off to war when you don't have to worry about any of your own going into the meat grinder!

Phlem

(6,323 posts)
27. Right, because he voted for funding the war during the war?
Sun Mar 20, 2016, 02:50 PM
Mar 2016

Guess that takes out the "you don't support the troops" argument huh.

Phlem

(6,323 posts)
37. Fact checking your facts.
Sun Mar 20, 2016, 03:18 PM
Mar 2016
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2015/sep/22/fact-checking-viral-graphic-critical-bernie-sander/

I'm sure the context in your facts are missing on accident.

Thanks for letting that little nugget out of the Hillary Group so people could comment on it.

Have a nice day.

Dragonfli

(10,622 posts)
104. That is because David Brock's Big Lie strategy is still in play.
Mon Mar 21, 2016, 12:19 PM
Mar 2016

Neither proof nor truth matter, those posts have to do with the "BIG LIE" Strategy that Brock and the Clinton campaign are using as a large tool in their dirty tricks box.

His "internet specialists" (legal supposedly, but based on a very loose interpretation of a loop hole)
can be paid by a super-PAC to coordinate directly with her campaign if it is only involved via the internet,

Some of these employees are paid to post an all forms of social media, and often do, especially when it regards the Big Lie tactics when they are used, which rely on repetition of the lie in order to make people believe the lie even when faced with solid facts to the contrary.

Expect these lies to be continuously spread, along with other lies pushed as truth via the Big Lie tactic that they have been employing liberally. (perhaps the only true sentence involving the word liberally in connection with Clinton, a right wing candidate within the Democratic party.)

Joseph Goebbels: On the "Big Lie"

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

JonLeibowitz

(6,282 posts)
76. The arresting of activists is completely ludicrous indeed.
Sun Mar 20, 2016, 11:36 PM
Mar 2016

They were at the office all day and were arrested precisely 30 minutes after closing time, 6:30pm. Seems some people wanted to go home.

Plus, isn't the whole point of civil disobedience (trespassing) to get arrested?

angrychair

(8,594 posts)
38. Since her Syria "no fly zone" idea
Sun Mar 20, 2016, 03:28 PM
Mar 2016

I have known that she is a war-monger since then. No quicker way to world war than something even the joint chiefs and pentagon think is stupid.

SunSeeker

(51,378 posts)
51. Bernie already approved sending your kids to war in the Balkans and Afghanistan.
Sun Mar 20, 2016, 05:13 PM
Mar 2016

In fact, he notes his approval on his campaign website.


https://berniesanders.com/issues/war-and-peace/

Phlem

(6,323 posts)
53. ....
Sun Mar 20, 2016, 05:45 PM
Mar 2016

The Balkans:

"I opposed the first Gulf War, as did many other Members of Congress, because I believed that there was a way to achieve our goals without bloodshed, through sanctions and concerted diplomatic action. I supported the use of force to stop the ethnic cleansing in the Balkans."


Afghanistan:

"Sen. Sanders voted to authorize military strikes against Afghanistan, after it became clear that the Taliban regime harbored and gave support to Osama bin Laden and the al-Qaeda terrorists who attacked America on 9/11. However, while we entered that war with significant clarity of purpose and moral authority, President Bush soon lost sight about what our goals were in Afghanistan. Instead of fighting those who attacked our country, he embroiled our troops in a quagmire in a far-away land."

He should have sent them to fight for oil and the 1%.

He's awful isn't he.

SunSeeker

(51,378 posts)
55. He is, for being a hypocrite. Your kids wound up just as dead in the Balkan and Afghanistan Wars.
Sun Mar 20, 2016, 06:10 PM
Mar 2016

And yet Bernie asserts his holier than thou pacifist creds, even though he is happy to glorify those wars (since he voted for them). The Balkan wars ended up accelerating rather than preventing ethnic cleansing. And Afghanistan today is still the mess it always was, despite thousands of our dead.

Maybe you should take up your (and Bernie's) defense of war with the OP -- since the OP suggests Bernie would never vote for war.

Lucky Luciano

(11,242 posts)
61. Bottom line folks. If Hillary sends your kids to war, it is for a noble purpose.
Sun Mar 20, 2016, 06:46 PM
Mar 2016

If Bernie sends your kids to war, it will be on par with W's logic for war.

End of story.

DhhD

(4,695 posts)
67. Are you taking up for the point of Hillary Clinton or Kissinger?
Sun Mar 20, 2016, 08:27 PM
Mar 2016
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n2p14_Neff.html
snip
Consequences of Kissinger's Policy
Kissinger's policy was prohibitively costly to the United States. By making Israel the military superpower of the region, the Kissinger policy also led to tragic events. These included Israel's bloody 1982 invasion of Lebanon, an action based on its new arrogance of power stemming from US-supplied weaponry. Even graver, however, was the fact that Israel was allowed by Washington to continue its occupation and settlement of Jordanian and Syrian land. This occurred during the same period that the United States became Israel's major patron and supporter starting in the 1970s under President Richard M. Nixon and Kissinger.

The dramatic increase of US aid while Israel violated official US policy against military occupation was a declaration to the world that where the Jewish state was concerned politics outweighed principle. These events led to the assassination of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin in 1995. Yigal Amir, the murderer, was one of the Jewish fanatics who emerged during the long occupation and were dedicated to retaining the occupied territories. Had Kissinger, like Ike, driven Israel off the occupied land, Amir's motive for the assassination would never have existed. The occupation would not have lasted nearly three decades and the extremist cult devoted to keeping the land that began growing strong in Israel in the 1970s would not have come into being.

As a final irony, Kissinger to this day is considered a great statesman for his Sinai agreement, while the Suez crisis and Ike's brave actions are barely remembered. David Halberstam did not even bother mentioning the 1956 crisis in his recent bestselling book The Fifties, dedicated to the major events of that decade. That is more than a sad commentary on the relative merits of the policies pursued by the two men. It is a stunning reminder of how strong Zionist influence is in the America media when it comes to molding perceptions of US policy in the Middle East.
more at link

Bob_Roony

(73 posts)
72. Kissinger is a war criminal
Sun Mar 20, 2016, 10:12 PM
Mar 2016

He shouldn't be celebrated nor be advising anyone on foreign policy. He should be in the Hague.

Phlem

(6,323 posts)
106. That is some messed up reasoning.
Mon Mar 21, 2016, 03:24 PM
Mar 2016

He tried to stop senseless genocidal killing (ethnic cleansing) in country which was o so horrible for our kids and morally inept on Bernie's part, But Hillary voting to send our kids to be killed for oil and the 1% based on lies is OK? WTF?



That is some seriously fucked up shit.

We are all doomed with that logic.

Jeebus fucking Christ on a stick.

SunSeeker

(51,378 posts)
107. The OP does not make distinctions about wars.
Mon Mar 21, 2016, 03:43 PM
Mar 2016

The OP suggests Bernie will not approve any wars, which is plainly false.

You miss the point I was making.

SunSeeker

(51,378 posts)
110. H.A. Goodman is a Republican idiot, and is wrong.
Mon Mar 21, 2016, 10:39 PM
Mar 2016

He is also a liar. He implies that during a speech to the Council on Foreign Relations, Hillary called for Ametican ground troops to defeat IS. She did not. What she said was:

Like President Obama, I do not believe that we should again have 100,000 American troops in combat in the Middle East. That is just not the smart move to make here. If we’ve learned anything from 15 years of war in Iraq and Afghanistan, it’s that local people and nations have to secure their own communities. 


http://www.cfr.org/radicalization-and-extremism/hillary-clinton-national-security-islamic-state/p37266

Phlem

(6,323 posts)
111. It's alright, I don't believe a word she says.
Mon Mar 21, 2016, 11:06 PM
Mar 2016

The Thirdway and GOP are economically identical. Been there done that and still suffering from it. Yeay H-1B visas and offshoring!!

Have a good one.

felix_numinous

(5,198 posts)
57. 'It's the math' is so heartless
Sun Mar 20, 2016, 06:25 PM
Mar 2016

It takes a hard heart to pick the neo con war profiteer above the one who wants to heal our infrastructure. Sometimes I think we are hearing from machines and not real people.

 

Ned_Devine

(3,146 posts)
83. That's how I feel when I read most of their posts too.
Mon Mar 21, 2016, 01:19 AM
Mar 2016

I wonder what I'm doing here if this is what I'm surrounded by.

rwsanders

(2,585 posts)
63. Sadly, I won't go into details about who I was around, but it was largely a minority, democratic
Sun Mar 20, 2016, 07:26 PM
Mar 2016

leaning group, and although they are anti-republican and would never vote that way: many were very satisfied (it appeared) with Obama's military "victories" not addressing what that may cost us in future interventions, what that costs civilians on the ground, and what is costs our military members in terms of long-term impacts.
Still too many people in this country view war as a kind of football game that can be won or lost and then everyone just gets to go home. Still that short term thinking the right sells so well. That is, never look at root causes, never look at possible consequences, just act on emotions.
And too few leaders willing to stand up and lead and make those statements.

PatrickforO

(14,516 posts)
69. Right you are.
Sun Mar 20, 2016, 08:50 PM
Mar 2016

And in spite of all the current memes out there from Third Way and corporate owned propaganda organs Bernie can still win, albeit narrowly.

SO LET'S NOT GIVE UP ON EITHER BERNIE OR OURSELVES.

If we all stand up, we can all have a government of, by and for we the people.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
70. The Clintons and their minions have no respect for the lives of American troops.
Sun Mar 20, 2016, 09:06 PM
Mar 2016

She helped Bush send thousands to their deaths and all she can say is, "it was a mistake". You bet it was a mistake and your maker ain't gona be happy.

 

JEB

(4,748 posts)
77. K&R War is the engine, blood of our young is the fuel
Mon Mar 21, 2016, 12:02 AM
Mar 2016

that drives what is left of our economy. Oligarchs want the bloody gravy train to keep them rolling in their obscene wealth.

Dragonfli

(10,622 posts)
114. I finally realized Hilary does indeed have a vision for our future (and yes she can on this issue)
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 04:18 PM
Mar 2016
Even if no we cant, achieve much of anything else as her campaign would imply.



[font size="1"]Honors to my deceased wife's artwork, she created this while we were protesting Hillary/Bush's illegal war at that time[/font]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511342821#post7


Something directly addressing your post

....I will share something that no one but myself knows about that drawing, when I asked her why there was no conveyor belt to expel the dead bodies produced by the Neocon strategy, she gave me a rather blunt but shocking answer, "The Neobobulator machine as she called it, ran on the bodies as fuel and was lubricated by the blood of the innocent, so all that was left of them was a grey mist that contaminated the future".....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511342821#post7
 

billhicks76

(5,082 posts)
78. Dare Anyone To Tell Me The Difference
Mon Mar 21, 2016, 12:06 AM
Mar 2016

Between Bush's foreign policy and Hillary's. Someone please post the photo of her hugging and giggling with GW Bush the other day. And how about the one with Bill and Bush Sr from '82 at the Bush family private retreat.

 

Nickel79

(81 posts)
82. As a Marine Corps veteran, there's no way I'm voting for an Iraq War supporter
Mon Mar 21, 2016, 12:52 AM
Mar 2016

Bernie had the courage to vote against the war, and he was decent enough to vote for funding our equipment needs once we were stuck in it. Years later, he did his best to fight for us veterans by trying to pass S.1982, which would've built 27 new VA hospitals, expanded educational and job benefits, and increased aid for the families of the fallen.

He's a good man, and he supports veterans. He also tries to keep us out of harm's way. I can't say the same for HRC.

JGug1

(320 posts)
90. The Evolution of Hillary Clinton
Mon Mar 21, 2016, 08:43 AM
Mar 2016

While I agree with almost all of what you said and particularly applaud Bernie Sanders reference to the 1953 intervention in Iran, which ABSOLUTELY was the start of the line leading DIRECTLY to the Obama decision to push towards reestablishment of relations with Iran, I do not think that Hillary Clinton would push us to intervene either. On a scale of 1-10 with ten being the most hawkish, Bernie is a ten. In the sense that while he would fight if we were attacked, he would be like Truman. Hillary is probably an 8. She wasn't always but she has learned. Of course, a lot would depend on who she picked as closest advisers. Remember that Bill is a given even though he might not have a title and he too, never put us into a ground war. Without question, I wold like to see the odious policy of intervention for what are clearly capitalist gains stopped. Inevitably, such interventions cause capital loss.

 

DrBulldog

(841 posts)
92. I almost can't wait to see the Democrats' shock the day after Hillary's nomination ...
Mon Mar 21, 2016, 09:25 AM
Mar 2016

... when we all find out she is LOSING in the polls to Donald Trump.

 

maindawg

(1,151 posts)
93. They are pushing us towards world war
Mon Mar 21, 2016, 09:48 AM
Mar 2016

This week they will show raw footage of the Syrian Serin gas attacks from 2014 on the news show I believe on CBS. This is a common propaganda ploy.
They want to invade Syria so bad. Iran is selling oil and that cannot be permitted. They have the plans in place. They are set in stone. Hillary is the key.
The election of Hillary means the end of the world as we knew it. Every right wing fantasy comes true. They salivating already. They quadrupled the budget for NATO. They are reving up the engines of war. China is also preparing,building stalite islands that are military posts. Saudi Arabia is armed to the teeth and are on full alert. They will begin very soon. All this Donald Trump manis is a diversion.
I hope I'm wrong. But this is how they roll. They are running a commercial on TV right now, they said today is the the day before.

 

beachbum bob

(10,437 posts)
102. I am afraid sanders pacifistic view would prevent him from actually interevening when it is NEEDED
Mon Mar 21, 2016, 11:40 AM
Mar 2016

because its just as important to know and be able to make the tough called when needed...and bernie never been faced with that in his career

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