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Tired of having to explain (Original Post) iamthebandfanman Mar 2013 OP
We know what happened to those folks. formercia Mar 2013 #1
Nazis used to bust in on Communist and Socialist party meetings and beat everyone to a pulp.... Spitfire of ATJ Mar 2013 #2
Like cops and Occupy. nt valerief Mar 2013 #3
More like Tea Party types showing up at Town Hall meetings,.... Spitfire of ATJ Mar 2013 #5
Yeah, like cops beating up, tear-gassing, and imprisoning Occupy protesters. valerief Mar 2013 #7
That's authoritarian all right... Spitfire of ATJ Mar 2013 #9
"Liberal Fascism" Doc_Technical Mar 2013 #13
K & R right here! freshwest Mar 2013 #14
I never try to explain. I just laugh it off. Buzz Clik Mar 2013 #4
Actually, the Conservative Movement uses the same propaganda. Spitfire of ATJ Mar 2013 #6
whatever you say Buzz Clik Mar 2013 #8
I could find something similar only with "Arabs"... Spitfire of ATJ Mar 2013 #10
Have fun with that. Buzz Clik Mar 2013 #11
You shouldn't. "Never Forget" was about falling for this crap. Spitfire of ATJ Mar 2013 #12
Obnoxious as it gets, American conservatism doesn't measure up to Naziism Bucky Mar 2013 #16
Personal freedom? newthinking Mar 2013 #18
I've studied the rise of fascism in Europe. It appealed to the same things Republicans aspire to... Spitfire of ATJ Mar 2013 #19
I see a lot of projection here, but not a lot of analysis of objective fact Bucky Mar 2013 #20
So, how would you then define them? Your comments seem to (in a way) let them off the hook newthinking Mar 2013 #21
Good question. Bucky Mar 2013 #26
Just because I didn't devote the time to write a thesis on this topic does not make me wrong.... Spitfire of ATJ Mar 2013 #23
OMG Bucky Mar 2013 #25
If I might add. The OP did not say that conservatives were Nazis newthinking Mar 2013 #22
No, I wasn't responding to the OP with this subthread. Bucky Mar 2013 #24
I had to look up "Feindmachten" Bucky Mar 2013 #17
It gets confusing for Americans when the German Commies denounce "Social Democracy" Bucky Mar 2013 #15

formercia

(18,479 posts)
1. We know what happened to those folks.
Sat Mar 2, 2013, 11:38 AM
Mar 2013

They were exterminated, just like the Jews, Roma, Gays, freemasons,Russian POWs, disabled and other Untermenchen.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
2. Nazis used to bust in on Communist and Socialist party meetings and beat everyone to a pulp....
Sat Mar 2, 2013, 01:12 PM
Mar 2013

There were regular street riots between the two sides and in one of them the leader of the Brown Shirts was badly wounded. He later died of his injuries in the hospital.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horst_Wessel

He was considered to be a martyr to the cause and his story was set to music and became the Co-National Anthem of Nazi Germany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horst-Wessel-Lied

EVERY historian LAUGHED when the book "Liberal Fascism" came out because EVERYBODY knew Fascism was hard core right wing. They all were saying things like, "I guess they figured fascism was a bad word so they decided to pin it on the other side." Give it a few years and repeat the lie over and over and you end up with someone who honestly believes they are informed making a complete ass of themselves by claiming Nazis were leftists.

I tell anyone who says that to come with me. I'll take them to a biker bar and have them go up to some guy fresh out of prison with a swastika tattoo on their neck and call them a Liberal because the Nazis were Commies.

I get to kick back with a beer and enjoy the show as they get their teeth knocked down their throat.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
5. More like Tea Party types showing up at Town Hall meetings,....
Sat Mar 2, 2013, 01:23 PM
Mar 2013

....and instead of yelling crap from a card they show up with weapons and,....well,...let's just say it gets violent and leave it at that.

valerief

(53,235 posts)
7. Yeah, like cops beating up, tear-gassing, and imprisoning Occupy protesters.
Sat Mar 2, 2013, 01:25 PM
Mar 2013

Cuz only campaign dollars have First Amendment rights.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
9. That's authoritarian all right...
Sat Mar 2, 2013, 01:38 PM
Mar 2013

But imagine if Republicans OPENLY and AS A PARTY wore uniforms so you KNEW it was them as they raided Democratic Campaign offices and beat everyone to a pulp just for being Democrats. Real "Gangs of NY" stuff.

Things were THAT extreme in Germany at that time.

Doc_Technical

(3,504 posts)
13. "Liberal Fascism"
Sat Mar 2, 2013, 04:22 PM
Mar 2013

We're still waiting for Jonah Goldberg to write the follow up
to this enlightened tome which will, of course, be titled,
"Conservative Communism" because after all you can't
have one without the other.

 

Buzz Clik

(38,437 posts)
4. I never try to explain. I just laugh it off.
Sat Mar 2, 2013, 01:19 PM
Mar 2013

Just like I laugh it off when people try to equate Hitler to today's US conservatives.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
10. I could find something similar only with "Arabs"...
Sat Mar 2, 2013, 01:45 PM
Mar 2013

The target group changes but the tactic of using scapegoats remains the same.


Bucky

(53,795 posts)
16. Obnoxious as it gets, American conservatism doesn't measure up to Naziism
Sat Mar 2, 2013, 11:34 PM
Mar 2013

Comparing them is an argument based on historical ignorance. The Biblically-inspired chaotic scramble for public adulation and the almighty dollar that US conservatives aspire to is sociologically incompatible with the "shut up, mind your shop, and march in line" world vision of European fascism. American righties seek chaos while the German Nazis sought order and conformity. American conservatives are motivated by personal freedom (while being entirely ignorant of just how much they're dependent on the order that government gives to the economy). Naziism was always rooted in the dangers of freedom and the need to impose public discipline on top of personal choices.

You should spend a year living in a truly fascist country before staking ground on the absurd claim that people in this country are fascistic just because they happen to disagree with you (and with most of the Founding Fathers) on a few political principles.

newthinking

(3,982 posts)
18. Personal freedom?
Sat Mar 2, 2013, 11:54 PM
Mar 2013

You are right that it is hard to compare what happened at that time to what is happening now (societies are more complicated than that), but seriously, you don't see the controlling nature and authorian nature of the right wing in this country?

I entirely disagree with that line of thinking. Especially having experienced life behind the curtain (as an evangelical). They are not at all about "personal freedom". The are definitely about wanting to define a narrow spectrum of acceptable thought and lifestyle.

It may not be the same thing as Naziism, but it's foolishness to think that in it's full form it would be any better than it.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
19. I've studied the rise of fascism in Europe. It appealed to the same things Republicans aspire to...
Sun Mar 3, 2013, 12:25 AM
Mar 2013

The only ones they want to conform are free thinkers. To be different is a threat. They were inspired by blind faith and believed the measure of a country's greatness was demonstrated through victory on the battlefield. They hated liberals and immigrants and resented people on the dole, even those with birth defects. They were convinced of their own superiority and hated weakness. They were all about the family and national security and returning to a past greatness and felt they could get there through militarism and national pride and felt God was on their side and felt brutality against those who disagreed with them was the fault of the victims for not seeing the light. They also appealed to greed and promised a future where their followers would prosper.

The only thing the Republicans lack to get them going in this way is a strong, charismatic leader they can rally around and we should be grateful for that.

Bucky

(53,795 posts)
20. I see a lot of projection here, but not a lot of analysis of objective fact
Sun Mar 3, 2013, 01:01 AM
Mar 2013

Sweeping generalizations about the Other just aren't convincing. Sorry. The Republican Party is not the monolithic ogre you've described. It's a coalition of quite diverse interests. The corporate US Chamber flat-taxers, the evangelical wing, the national security hystericals, the gun nuts, the immigration hyperventalationists, the South Park libertarians, the rabid individualists...

You can't get a single charismatic figure to unite them into a fascistic movement because they're too diverse; they can't be united like that. The coalition would fall apart. The Republican party is hardly lacking for doctrinaire charismatic leaders. But the best of them go into talk radio. They're not interested in power; they're interested in making a buck off the schmucks. That's not fascism; that's charlatanism.

The only things that unite them are (1) Democratic presidents and (2) vague-talking idiots like Reagan and Dubya. They want to be hoodwinked (that's why so many swallowed Romney... and why they found it so easy to spit him back up again undigested after he lost). That's just not the same social or political dynamic as what put the National Socialists in charge of Germany.

Most of what you've described as the nascent fascism in the American right is simply vague generalizations. The human mind is a wonderful instrument designed to seek out patterns, even in a sea of random occurrences. When you look at details you've left off, your generalizations don't add up to a pattern connecting Republicans and Nazis, however. The fact that Nazis used propaganda and scapegoats doesn't mean that all scapegoaters are nazis. The fact that Republicans thing God is on their side doesn't make them Nazi-like. Hitler was pretty aggressively anti-church--he saw Christianity as a doctrine of weakness and as counterweight to the influence of the Party.

You mention a hatred of immigrants, only Germany didn't have many immigrants to hate in the 1930s. I can't think of any successful politician who didn't want to have a strong military, but I think you cherry pick facts if you ignore the anti-militarism of Ron Paul or Wayne LaPierre when you describe all Republicans. Every single politician alive promises "a future where their followers would prosper" but greed (or personal prosperity) was really not a central theme in Hitler's confidence job on the German voters. He played on resentments, not greed. He promised unity and uniformity, not the idolization of absolute individualism that Republicans wank off to.

Your conflation of Nazis and Republicans is based on distortions and historical ignorance. Sorry, no sale. You're not thinking critically. You see Republicans as bad (which they are) and you see Nazis as the ultimate bad (which they were), but then you've glued them together without any historical basis for drawing those conclusions. This is the essence of sloppy thinking.

You want to know about fascism? Read In the Garden of Beasts by Erik Larson. It's an excellent book that describes what life in Germany was like in 1933-34. It's out in paperback now and it's captivating.

newthinking

(3,982 posts)
21. So, how would you then define them? Your comments seem to (in a way) let them off the hook
Sun Mar 3, 2013, 01:22 AM
Mar 2013

I agree that it is difficult to compare the two (Nazism and arch conservatives), but I would argue that arch conservatism in it's fully mature form (which granted we are not seeing yet), is just as dangerous.

It causes a lot of problems when we try to define very complex social movements into a narrow group of possabilities. Just like we do with the types of economies. But we have to find ways to define the evils of movements like this.

If the conservatism that is expressed in much of the various leadership groups actually end up gaining enough power sure, it won't look just like "Nazism", but it could look very nasty.

Much of the movement have extremely autoritarian roots and there is definitely a problem with empathy in this movement.

They may not all agree, but they all have very heavy philosophies that revolve around dehumanizing those who do not believe as they do. Evancelicals with enough power would likely jail or even execute Gays and Lesbians, or those with the wrong beliefs. A lot of Ayn randian /right wing capitalists do not feel that those who do not "produce" in the way they feel is appropriate do not deserve to live. The "Nationalist" and "constitutionalist (well they think they are, but are really not) wing would easily subject those of alternate beliefs or free'r minsets to terrible jail sentences. Well, we are already moving down that path.

In the same way much of the Right wing are Social Darwinists, which is certainly as dangerous of a philosophy if followed more fully as Nazism was.

How would you prefer that we describe these dangerous values sets as? Or are you arguing they are not really dangerous values to societies? In that I would strenously disagree.

Bucky

(53,795 posts)
26. Good question.
Sun Mar 3, 2013, 04:12 AM
Mar 2013

Jefferson would probably call them monocrats, but only when a Republican is in office. When there's a Democratic president, they're anarchists.

Seriously, tho, I think you hit the nail on the head with the Social Darwinism comment. That's only some of them, of course. Like I said, it's a coalition of different interests and ideologies, as diverse as 47% of America is bound to be. But the perception of constant opposition and competition in all things, with little responsibility to the public good is about as unifying an ideology as specific an idea as can hold the Republican Party. There's a general denial of concepts in economics like social costs--the way I as an employer can profit if the city funds a job-training program or how I as a retail salesman can be hurt if the streets are full of potholes. That's why you only hear Democrats talk about rebuilding infrastructure. The fact that bridges and sewer systems have to be maintained is in conflict with their core mythology of rugged individualism.

There's a few theocrats in the mix, particularly on the abortion issue, but the stridency on the gay-hate issues is gradually fading away, in part because the sexual-neurosis fueled "hate your neighbor" angle is losing out to the laissez-faire core belief. Watch this video if you want to see Texas changing. The hatred is just running out of steam and the Social Darwinists are dropping it as a hate-rally talking point.

Another distinction is the flavor of their hatreds. Naziism was 20th century scientific racism, sharing roots with eugenics and handful of other bogus sciences. The American right uses hate not as a philosophy, but as a marketing hook. When a given wedge issues quits working, they drop it. Hitler was a hate setter and a hate leader. Generally, Fox News, Frank Luntz, and the Republican Party in general are hate followers, hate opportunists; they fish around for what spiel will work, tossing hate like spaghetti against the wall to see what sticks and what drops.

The Nazis had real social goals--probably some form of mass extermination was in the works while they were still wearing lederhosen in Bavarian beer gardens. Republicans are mostly out to pull down a profit--either at the government teat or in the private sector with as many safety regulations as possible removed. There's little by way of guiding social mission. They are extreme capitalists. This is why the Tea Partiers get so pissed at the DC Beltway bosses. They get promised a leaner government every four years, but whenever the party gets into power, they really don't changed the federal government that much. They don't care. The point was to win so they could pass out contracts to their donors, not so they could shrink the budget.

I imagine most aren't even racists. They love that Pizza Man. Alan Keyes won their hearts, but not their votes, by singing their songs. They think there's a cultural problem in the black community and can't understand how Jim Crowism could still have an effect on people almost 60 years after Brown vs. the Board. Again, the mythology of individualism blinds them to facts like family dynamics, ongoing inequalities in still-segregated schools, or persistent discrimination in housing, hiring, and financial institutions.

It's late and I could probably write a book about this, if I could think it thru. I agree that there is an authoritarian character in some circles in conservative culture. But I think it depends on someone expressing their tribal identity as a social conservative--its not a European type of deference to the Big Guy, whoever it is up on the top. When Bush got off the farm and started cutting deals with the Democratic Congress in order to prevent a complete crash in 2008, they turned on him too. They don't promote the outright social thuggery that the various European fascist movements of the 30s employed. There were semi-fascist movements in the Americas too (Peron's Judicialist party in Argentina used street violence, as did Pinochet in Chile in the 70s and the FARC thugs in Colombia and the KKK whenever it rears its big ugly). But without the resorting to violence, I don't think a movement can make the leap to true fascism. I don't think even the theocrats in the Republicans have the moxie to use actual violence.

Blah blah blah. I'm tired and my mind is drifting. I wish I'd been less rude in my previous posts.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
23. Just because I didn't devote the time to write a thesis on this topic does not make me wrong....
Sun Mar 3, 2013, 01:35 AM
Mar 2013

I posted that while taking a break in the middle of replacing the clutch on a car, which, btw, is going to have to wait for tomorrow because I spent two hours trying to line up the damn thing before calling it a night.

We think of Hitler as a monster but the German people of the time saw him as a saviour.

Want to talk "projection"? How about when we hear Republicans claiming Obama followers are in a cult.

Want to talk "sloppy thinking"? I got into it not long ago with someone who claimed Nazis HAD to have been Liberals because Republicans support Israel and Liberals support a Palestinian State so that means they are anti-Israel, therefore anti-Semitic, therefore NAZI.


Bucky

(53,795 posts)
25. OMG
Sun Mar 3, 2013, 03:21 AM
Mar 2013
People like that kill me. It's not just being wrong, but their outright confidence in their derailed train of thought. I had a guy at church once, back in the Clinton years, tell me Fox News was much better than "the networks" because "They're both fair AND balanced" as if that was an actual demonstration of fact.

About six months later he told me he realized Fox was just lying to him.

newthinking

(3,982 posts)
22. If I might add. The OP did not say that conservatives were Nazis
Sun Mar 3, 2013, 01:31 AM
Mar 2013

Which I think you have innacurately debated.

He/she said that Nazi's were on the right wing of the political spectrum. I think that is a valid point.
I hear conservatives often tryng to claim that the Nazi's were on the left of the spectrum. It really does not fit that definition as it exists today.

Bucky

(53,795 posts)
24. No, I wasn't responding to the OP with this subthread.
Sun Mar 3, 2013, 03:13 AM
Mar 2013

I liked the OP. It's a valuable video to show to people who are still forming their opinions. I only pointed out that logic isn't the very effective with people who get fooled by the double talk like nazis are leftist cause they were national socialists.

My "Republicans aren't really Nazis" was directed at a commenter downthread who made the Goodwin's Blunder.

We do have actual would-be fascists in this country, but Republicans they ain't.

Bucky

(53,795 posts)
17. I had to look up "Feindmachten"
Sat Mar 2, 2013, 11:50 PM
Mar 2013

What an intriguing German compound. Feind is akin to the English "fiend", meaning enemy, but with a demonic overlay that implies more than just military opponent or rival. Mächten has the same root as "to make" but really translates as power or force, only mächten is plural, and macht is singular. So you can say the word means "enemy forces" (which is not as catchy or quippy as the English counterpart "axis&quot , but the emotional heft of Feindmächten is so much weightier than just that. It carries a darkness, a lurking ominous threat, like a troll under a bridge or a witch in the Schwarzwald designing a gingerbread house in order to capture and eat the little blond Hansels and Gretels who venture too far from the clearing.

I think this helps to explain Hitler and the Nazis a bit better. When the threats from the outside are so dark and omnipotent, it makes sense that it's better to burn down the whole forest rather than trust that the Other who lives outside our Kultur is a rational human too. We do have our own little Hitlers in our society, but they rarely get bigger than a high-walled compound and a fleet of limos bought from the "love offerings" of the suckers they bamboozle.

Bucky

(53,795 posts)
15. It gets confusing for Americans when the German Commies denounce "Social Democracy"
Sat Mar 2, 2013, 11:22 PM
Mar 2013

Anyone confused enough to fall for the BS that Naziism was leftist because it was "national socialism" isn't going to get the nuances of Weimer Republic extremism, let alone have the patience to sit through three whole minutes of silent newsreel footage.

If you wanna blow up the minds of dittoheads, point them over to the Nazis' 1938 German Weapons Act. The Nazis, far from wanting to round up the guns in society, were actually strongly in favor of gun ownership by ordinary citizens. The Nazis loosened gun laws, ended registration of long-barreled firearms, stopped the regulation of ammunition, and even allowed private citizens to own machine guns.

Sound familiar? It's the NRA's agenda. Not that the NRA are Nazis, just that their talk about Hitler rounding up the guns in Germany is bullshit. Now, I'm sure Hitler did round up guns in Czechoslovakia, Poland, and France -- non-German nations that he invaded. But he never took over his own people by denying them gun rights. Rather, he demagogued the firearms regulation issue in order to manipulate the public over to his side.

Now, he did deny gun rights to people he vilified as non-German: Jews, Roma, Communists... Again, this is a rightwing tactic. How many times have you heard Republicans & conservatives snark that liberals aren't real Americans or argue that "McCain would've been starting his second term by now, if Obama hadn't gotten all those minority votes."

But this is more about keeping the bedazzled majority neurotically militarized, rather than wanting to avoid shooting it out with a "well-armed citizenry". Fantasies about apocalyptic shoot-outs with the evil elements of society are hallmarks of extremists--left and right. It happened in real life in Germany in 1919. The Marxist Spartan League and the rightwing predecessors of the Nazis actually did shoot it out in the streets of Berlin (which serves the Germans right for having unleashed Lenin & Leninism on Russia two years earlier). But the only people talking about taking arms against fellow citizens or against the government we have all elected are the people on the Right. The Alex Joneses and Wayne LaPierres and Ted Nugents of the world love talking about taking up guns against an oppressive government--which in reality would mean getting into firefights with the BATF, the FBI, and (I suppose) park rangers at Yosemite. The only arms us lefties fantasize about are the ones we'd like to hug our trees with.

Nope, when the wingnuts start comparing liberalism to fascism, it's the same old "Clint Eastwood vs. the chair" dynamic. Unable to sustain an honest argument, the super-conservatives have resorted once again to inventing a make-belief supervillain that they can feel comfortable about vanquishing, even if only in the privacy of their own imaginations.

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