It is VERY IMPORTANT to understand the source of this video and the other one posted here on DU comes from Russia Today which is owned by the Russian government, so you are hearing what Putin wants you to hear.

That almost amounts to "freedom of the press," and it simply can't be allowed!

(sarcasm)

I think it is also important to consider.

Some programs are heavily slanted, others are not so. Not much different than much of the mainstream press.

The US has the entire spectrum where they are able to fill the airwaves with a certain perspective. There is not a single regular program in the US that represents a Russian world view or Russian cultural view. And in fact, we tolerate an incredible amount of outright bigotry that we would never tolerate so completely around any other minority here.

.

- But my Ukrainian is rusty.

I see the 'Let's All Kill RT/Putin With Our Criticism'' crowd is out in force today. YAY!!!

[center][font size=10 color=red]WELCOME![/font][/center]

We just understand it is owned and run by Putin and is putting out propaganda and has been stretching facts past the breaking point.

Sorry if you have problems with another point of view.

The video bleeped it out, but for those here who don't know the slavic languages there is not actual direct translation of the word "fucker". But other terms essentially carry the same meaning.

But only when playing to his base.

Few people had heard of Vladimir Putin when Russia's then-President Boris Yeltsin appointed him prime minister in 1999. But the stern-faced former KGB officer triggered a love affair with the Russian population — by starting a popular second war in Chechnya later that year...

"If they're in the airport," Putin said, "we'll kill them there... and excuse me, but if we find them in the toilet, we'll exterminate them in their outhouses."

...Putin has often lost his temper in public. During a 2002 news conference in Brussels, Belgium, the president responded to a question that angered him by inviting a reporter to come to Moscow to be circumcised:

"We have specialists in this question, as well," Putin said. "I'll recommend that he carry out the operation in such a way that nothing will grow back..."

More 'Putinisms' down the page at:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90083829

http://metamorphosis.democraticunderground.com/1014767734#post4

Obama does not play that way, but he's called weak and spineless for not going the low road, which serves nothing but to whip up the frenzy of the voters and potential goons who act in mobs.

Such as those flipping over the cars and then jumping on them. It looks like primates at the zoo, but they see themselves as freedom fighters. It's tiresome seeing these kind of images, so much like our Teaterrorists here.

In my humble opinion:

#1: The Russians got their embassy attacked, which is the act of mobs in nations worldwide who feel slighted and have no other way to express themselves, and are often reactionaries fighting change.

#2: The f-word or d-word is inconsequential to the larger issues dividing Russia and Ukraine. They were once one nation and atrocities were committed. Those were in response to long ago atrocities.

The region is and has been a mess for centuries with some periods of calm and prosperity. It is the soil of infamous dictators and they didn't become what they were in a vacuum. It is a shame, as both the region and its people have great potential and resources:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017196879

They are generally a well educated people, like the Russians. I suspect their oligarchs, like ours, is more than happy to fuel the baser reactions of some of the people there, and for the same reason, to divide and conquer.

#3: Russia was within its rights to complain of its embassy being attacked, no matter how egregious some may consider the acts of Russia today or throughout history. If the vote was as reported, that the western powers said to give this a free pass, I suspect they won't bleat to anyone about their own embassies getting torched.

But on second thought, they don't fuss about that, really. They lick their wounds and try again, or break off relations. That won't happen in Ukraine.

I don't see it as freedom of speech or expression to cross the line between protest and mayhem. Some might excuse it as better than all out slaughter. Sounds like degrees of crime, some are acceptable, some are not to some. And a bit like the 2A guys calling their right to intimidate others with their guns the same thing as freedom of speech, when it clearly shuts down dialogue.

#4: The first OP shouldn't have been hidden since DU dotes on the word. And it was the video title. Someone doesn't want to have this heard. Or seen. Although I could have done without seeing just how idiotic mobs act, but it shouldn't be hidden.

#5: The reporter making a big deal of that one word and so very concerned about the effects of diplomacy, is silly. Tthe 'diplomat' playing to the camera doesn't appear to be the brightest light in the room and he's not the ultimate authority.

JMHO. YMMV.

I understand the point you are making. But that really does not change that this event is extremely serious.

You don't think the fact that Kyiv did not dispatch police (the event lasted quite long, many hours) is not a problem? Are you a Democrat or an anarchist? Seriously, do you can't really believe that because we are in tension with Russia that we should justify breaks in international standards?

His action was part of what escalated the tension. The crown picked up on what he said and started chanting it as a slogan. As a representative of Kyiv essentially that gave a signal that Kyiv is ok with an escalation regardless if that was meant or not.

Are we really ready to completely invoke Machiavellian law in place of international law and standards? That we act with different principles depending on the situation?

I was supportive of your OP. And in no way do I support your outrageous accusations of my positions on this matter.

Is this your way of saying I didn't toe the line with some form of group think you want me to adhere to, which you didn't state in the OP?

If I can't reply to you without being slammed for agreeing with you, we don't have to talk to each other here.

my apologies.

I indeed got caught up and defensive and did not read well your post.

I totally agree and appreciate your seeing the nuance and cause effect. I can certainly understand the crowd's reaction and agree that there is an incredible amount of activity that can be explained by simple "cause and effect".

It would be nice if moderation here started dealing a bit with some of the bigotry that is making these discussions more tense. I have never been tolerant of bigotry and it is not acceptable just because of the current tensions. Unfortunately our entire society is somewhat affected by the old cold war. We say things about Russians that people would be completely ostracized if they said the same about other minorities, and we have not yet come to a discussion about it. Since we are now getting back into a cold war stance and it is 25 years since the fall of the USSR it really is the time to get that part behind us and it is disturbing to see the old mentality return.

Time to take a break and get some sunshine.

someone used a bad word about Dear Leader?

But I don't approve of the rioting. And could care less about what words were used there.


*said while sitting back comfortably and spouting from my keyboard...*

Last edited Sun Jun 15, 2014, 03:41 PM - Edit history (1)

Good job in cutting out the bigotry and leaving in only the pro-Putin fanaticism and RT brainwashing

don't seem to be as much interested in reflecting what is true as intent on keeping a certain line of propaganda moving.

Too bad it is not effective nor serves well the people you may work for.

And nice try at "cognitive dissonance" (Your comment about bigotry), though certainly you do seem not to realize it. I am not the one who posts completely black and white narratives and has nothing at all but distaste toward a culture. My care for the Ukrainian people is why I feel deeply about what is happening to them. Though I don't care much for the ones who are violent right wing nutcases or fascists.

Extremists always get paranoid. And the projection is classic--you post in support of RT, which is literally paid and run by the Kremlin to spread BS, but you accuse others of getting paid to spread BS.

You won't answer any questions about why you support totalitarianism in Russia, why you're a fan of homophobic, corrupt dictator destroying the free press. So of course you point fingers.

More, comrade, please! It's like a fine case study

I didn't get paid... Must contact my handlers in Kyiv (or is it Washington?) right away!

P.S.: Just in case -

And I'll put in my own icon to be sure! C'mon, Agent Mike, you know I love ya!

He must be working for Putin. He just re-posted the video (so he could change the title line) when it was about to sink
I am sure RT is happy for all the exposure that unhope has been giving their video's.

Look at the sidebar on the right of the page which oughta blow a few minds:

http://www.youtube.com/user/whitehouse

Anyone who wants to say Obama isn't informed or doesn't have an open mind will have to try again!



I still need money. Please contact Vlad and tell him to send it to me in US$. If he sends it to me via Skinner he's welcome to take a percentage.

Anxiously awaiting your reply Mr. Putin,

Sincerely,

'freshwest' (star DU poster)

"Russia Today" is the second other channel offering on the White House Youtube channel!

LOL, You either are not interested in intellectual honesty or you have become so involved in the old cold war feelings that you have subliminal messages going through your head?; you have made a ton of accusations that not only have nothing to do with what we have conversed on, but are totally un-factual - false.

Because I disagree with you I am "Pro-Putin", I support totalitarianism, I am a communist (what you meant by "comrade&quot .

Is that you McCarthy?

I hate to break it to you, but those techniques are popular with only a very small minority here. But if it makes you feel better to sling them around it certainly does not hurt me any, just exposes your own prejudices?

Putin is a dickhead. He lied about having sent Russian troops to Crimea and it would be reasonable to figure he is lying about sending equipment into Ukraine to the separatists that shot down an aircraft with a SAM. They should be glad that nothing more happened at the embassy rather than some name calling and rock and egg throwing and a few diplomatic cars overturned. I think the people are pretty pissed that a section of the country was invaded and taken over by force by Russia.

Not really serious news but whatever. I am sure worse is said but he just said it on camera.

I don't see either side as being clean in this. It is just not black and white.

It absolutely is serious news. Because Diplomats are essential to keeping communication lines open. I think it is in all our interests not to have this escalate to WW3. And I am certainly glad that our conventions were not based on principles like you say above, because the world would be far more in chaos then it is.

Not to mention that liberals tend to not let their emotions get ahead of principles. You simply can't move toward a better world if institutions that promote peace and dialog are not respected and supported.

I may feel that the Kyiv government is equally (if not more) responsible for bringing all this about, but that does not mean I want to see things escalate further into more aggressive civil war if they do not tamper down their actions.

government has already agreed to all of the demands from the east but the Russian backed separatists do not agree to anything. They just kidnap and torture. Russia is much more responsible. They fomented this and are keeping it going. Russian TV is the only TV they get since the pro-Russian separatists have taken over the TV stations and banned any Ukraine or western TV.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/11/us-ukraine-crisis-osce-idUSKBN0EM1BK20140611

I would rather someone speaks the truth and calls a person a dickhead.

of any type of federalization. That has been one of the reasons this keeps escalating.

For someone who so often posts like they understand everything you should by now have researched and know that Yatsunek said months ago from his foundation there would be no federalization, Oleksandr Turchynov is on the record saying the same, and the new president said the same June 7th. How can you act so sure of your opinion when you don't even know the basic facts?

I would agree with you though, if it was anyone other than diplomatic staff. Better words than violence. But in terms of diplomacy those are words of violence.

Who is Russia to dictate what kind of structure should another country have? Is it OK for US to dictate "democracy" to Iraq and Afghanistan?

thank you for correcting it.

should the self appointed people in the east release all of their kidnapped victims? Should the East be allowed to watch programming from other sources than Russian TV to get all of the points of view? Should the "self appointed leaders" show up and negotiate with the legitimately elected government?

Of course they should release them (by the way it is not quite so clean, part of the reason that OSCE became suspected was because they allowed a delegation that included military staff to ride along with them. Not a smooth move).

Should media be unrestricted? Yes. But don't glance over that it is also severely restricted by Kyiv. I expect the extremists who rose up in the easts to do this kind of thing, but not Kyiv, but then again as it turns out they are also extremists, or at least the people over military and media are.

Do you really expect the leaders just to walk up? They would be killed on the spot. They have expressed a desire to talk. I have no doubt they would like a way out of the situation. But why even bring that up when it is not an option. There are other diplomatic options, which is one of the reasons that we should not completely alienate Russia. There are other parties that could be used as mediaries, but the fact is kyiv does not really want to compromise. That is just all hot air. Not only do they not want to compromise but they seem to welcome conflict against those in the population they don't like.

He should have not said anything and allowed the protesters to do what students in Islamic Republic did to the US Embassy in 1979, right?

But we are talking about FM Deschitsya actions here.

1. The UN should have condemned the embassy attack, as it is true, the police should have been there a lot sooner.
2. The Deputy FM was attempting to defuse the situation. He used a bad word. Big deal. A lot more was at stake. To be utterly clear, he was actually attempting to uphold international law here. That he used a bad word is so much of a so what it's not even funny.
3. Objecting to this as a breach of international law in the face of what happened in Crimea and what is happening in eastern Ukraine every single day is beyond hilarious.

saying a bad word and throwing eggs at an embassy (ourtage) or Invading, Illegally blockading the Ukrainian navy,(violation of international law) and annexing a portion of a sovereign state (violation of international law) that you have a signed international agreement with (Proud of breaking international laws and agreements and no outrage, shocking).

Lets see, which is worse.......... Russia needs to condemn itself I would think.

That is one of the problems. Nobody is respecting international law including the US. We are all complicit in destroying what little international order we had created and the apex is being reached.

It is all order by "Machievelli" by all three of the major powers. All the more reason why a resolution should not be focused on those parties but on the people of Ukraine themselves. And that means the majority there. It was empowering a minority party into Kyiv that kicked all this off in the first place.

That line you're pushing is straight out of Moscow. Yanukovych was deposed in the same way Nixon was, except that in Ukraine a little more violence was needed.
What's happening now is as if the 20% that held out for Nixon to the bitter end seceded with help from conservatives in Canada. Some foreigner would look at it and say "the Republicans are revolting", which would be a barely accurate description: a rump portion of the Republicans would be revolting. Nixon was ousted with the help of the Republicans; Yanukovych was ousted with the assent of his party.
What complicates this is that what's really happening is what hasn't really happened yet: a former Soviet republic actively having to fight for its independence, and winning. Even if Ukraine loses the two eastern provinces in revolt, it will have firmly and completely gained its true independence from Moscow. Putin I think now understands this, and regrets it, but what's been broken can't be fixed, not anymore.
I keep pointing this out but I'll just do it again: this is exactly the same as Cuba winning the right not to be invaded by the US via the route of the Cuban Missile Crisis. After that, invasion was completely off the table, and that was what Khruschev really wanted, and got. Cuba has since been truly independent of the US, in a way no other country in the Caribbean is. Ukraine is turning to the EU for the exact same reason Cuba turned to the USSR: to get the big power in its neighborhood to back off. It's a very effective strategy, which is what is driving Putin nuts.

Right Sector and Svoboda leaders (if you are not aware of who they are please do some searching), who hate Russians, were put in the executive over these (and some other) departments. You also have oligarchs with their hands in things, one of whom is paying extremists to go after dissenters.

It is completely baffling, to any unbiased observer, why the Right Sector Leaders in those positions have not been removed : Unless they feel they are representing the values of the rest of the government.

That dynamic alone would cause a similar crisis in our country. And it is relatively simple to defuse that component. And as time drags on and that does not change it indicates to the those in the country opposed to fascists or who are ethnic Russians, that they will not get a fair shake, and that things could deteriorate even much worse for them if they don't resist.

It is real easy to sit in our biased and comfortable seats and make judgements about half the country there based on an incomplete narrative. But any scrutiny whatsover in any realm of honesty reveals that there are reasons that things are continuing to escalate that have as much or more to do with Kyiv than Russia.

The United Russia Party was reported by The Voice of Russia - not Radio Liberty or the Kiev Post or someplace like that - as wishing Marine Le Pen well in the recent European Parliament elections.
There are far more fascists in Moscow than there will ever be in Kiev. I'm not stupid enough to believe the idiotic propaganda line coming from the Kremlin.

The equivalency talking point only works if you are outside the country looking in. That is a nice debate point for people whom can sit in their safe homes and banter about who is worse. But it is really not material.

We are so used to seeing war on our TVs I don't even know if half the people here can really use empathy to understand why that is a somewhat offensive point to make toward the people who are affected.

Moscow gives actual financial support to Jobbik. Moral support at minimum to Le Pen.
United Russia is actively fascist. The entire ruling party. That is not so in Ukraine.
The false equivalence is in Russian propaganda.

The wording in my title for the earlier post was judged to be an example of "bigotry" against Ukrainians, by four out of seven jury members. I think that conclusion was a bit of a stretch, and my words were certainly not intended as an insult to Ukrainians as a people or a nationality, but, let it be.

The important thing is that the video is back where it can be seen by those on these boards. Let them decide what kind of a "diplomat" Ukraine's Foreign Minister is acting like.

The more heated the discussions the more likely folks will forget their obligation and instead vote based on their feelings about the subject being discussed or the one who posted it. Then it depends on who ends up on the jury.

It would be nice if there was a way to "appeal" a hidden post to an actual moderator.

We can't really expect Skinner to get involved in every single little spat that occurs here.

Folks that watch for the really bad stuff

Last edited Sun Jun 15, 2014, 08:21 PM - Edit history (1)

Forum and Group moderators could be empaneled to judge any contested jury decisions to hide. Perhaps it could even be limited to four-to-three decisions by juries. That would seem to be a workable approach?

That's a pretty apt word for a man who persecutes gays, jails rockers who voice concerns about human rights, cracks down brutally in Chechnya and executes imperial maneuvers in Ukraine, although perhaps international criminal would be more to the point and a bit more polite. On the other hand, Putin is entirely unworthy of any diplomatic courtesy.

A diplomat who actually says what he thinks...How Refreshing...!