I work on a psych unit. That guy shows up where I work a few times a day. We don't shoot him. They knew before they took him out of the building he was agitated but only had 2 people to control him and no leg irons. No excuse for this.

used to work in psych years ago. Thorazine syrup (even injection although that is slower) could've been helpful here. Why didn't the officers take this guy to a psych ward?

Calling bullshit on the cover story.

That dude got out of the way under his own power.

Just like the officer that was on Oscar Grant in the BART train station shooting. Dude got out of the way, deliberately, and then the second officer shot Grant in the back.

Everyone can (rightfully so) see the crazy NRA gun nut but no one can see the crazy nut wearing a uniform and a badge.

pure and simple. police type sanctioned murder.

MURDER

Didn't care. They are above the law.

really needs to get their head out of their ass.

Stay clear of them whenever possible, and call them at your (or your loved ones) peril.

No conscience, no morals, no accountability, and no honor.

we would often have guys like this brought in. We had a padded cell for them - partly to stop themselves from hurting themselves and to keep them quiet and away from others - for their benefit and others.

They would be evaluated and if necessary a psychiatrist would be called - they would not be led off by police until the ER docs thought they were okay to leave.

Yes they were a real pia and disturbed the whole ER, but it never crossed anyone's mind not to treat them or do what could be done to help them be calmed down.

This is disgusting and I hope that those who lied about this murder are brought to justice.

.

First off, I agree that we have a serious problem with police over-reaction in this country right now. The recent case that I thought was the most egregious was the guy who got shot to death for camping in the wrong spot and was set on by what looked like a damn SWAT team in New Mexico. At any rate, the fact is that the police have become more and more militarized (both in their gear and their personnel) and the reliance on brute force and arms is eroding any semblance of good police work any more.

The handling of this prisoner (and specifically the drawing of the firearm) under those circumstances should never be allowed to happen by procedure; and if this was a case of officers willingly breaking procedure and resulting in a detainee death, then they should be tried and brought to justice for their actions (or lack thereof)...however, after watching and re-watching and still framing the moment of the shooting, I believe the "accidental discharge" defense will hold up. That does not make it excusable or a justifiable shooting - it just doesn't make it murder.

If you freeze-frame through the video at the 18:56 / 43:28 mark (go frame at a time) and look at the position of the beige-shirted man's left hand in relation to the shooter's firearm, there is definitely contact between the two at the exact instant that the shot erupts from the gun. You can see the shot happen in concert with this collision.

The Mediate account does not jibe with the video either...I know that its heresy to not accept things that support a favored narrative, but that kind of craptacular thinking is what dominates the right wing freaks and their media...I thought that on the left we were supposed to be more open to honest evaluation of evidence??? I am not taking the side of the El Paso Police Department's weak response, but I am also not sure how so many people are jumping on this thread and completely agreeing this is a premeditated act to deliberately kill another human being.

Mediate states:
"At one point during the struggle, Flores is thrown off of Saenz. Instead of simply tacking the handcuffed man, the officer reached for his gun, drew it, and fired a bullet into his prisoner’s shoulder, killing him in what can not be better described than as an execution."

Now, go to the video, forward through frame by frame to the shot (right at 18:55-56/43:28) and look at the positions of the three men. First of all, Flores is not thrown off, he stands up deliberately after appearing to lose his grip or leverage in the struggle on the ground. While he is standing up, he first reaches to his belt on the left side (appearing to struggle very briefly with what I assume to be mace), he then establishes his balance, stops trying to get the item off of the left side of his belt and decides to go to his gun on the right side of the belt; eventually drawing his weapon, the struggle continues briefly on the ground between Saenz and the beige-shirted man.

By the time the weapon is drawn, the Beige-shirted officer is also on his feet, though clearly off-balance and lurching towards the now armed Flores, who leans back in with his left arm (actually touching Saenz on the shoulder), with gun drawn in his right hand just before things are about to go very bad.

Flores and the assistant are now both standing - moving in opposite directions and colliding, and Saenz is SEATED ON THE GROUND.

Now, once again, I am NOT trying to absolve the officers here...Flores should NEVER have drawn a loaded weapon in that scenario...but, the Mediate account is making this sound different than the video shows...Saenz was on the ground, not standing, the shooter was deliberately standing, not "thrown off"...the act of "instead of tackling him" is impossible from the positions of the three men in that frame, especially since Saenz was already on the ground at the time the shooting happens.

Manslaughter? Absolutely.
Career-ending mistake for both officers? 100% agree...neither one should have EVER worked another shift as an officer.
But Murder? I do not see it the same way.
No chance a prosecutor would take that charge to a jury with this video and the police already issuing a report to explain it.

To describe it as an "execution" is to invoke imagery of a firing squad or EVEN this:

[IMG][/IMG]


This is clearly a case of a police officer going to the wrong option, in the wrong scenario and ending in tragedy when a live weapon is brandished in a truly inappropriate situation. Flores should be tried for manslaughter, he should be found guilty and serve the appropriate sentence and he should never be allowed to work another day as an officer of the law...but what he should not be is assassinated in the media - (especially not on the left, when we continually harp on the fact distortion and hyperbole of the right ALL THE TIME) - as an executioner or painted as if he actually drew, aimed and fired in a manner more deliberate than the video shows.

is that there's no audio. We don't know what they were saying to each other, the two officers and the prisoner. For all we know, the cop in blue was telling the prisoner that if he didn't behave, he was going to shoot him and he kept his promise.

Another thing, there is absolutely no reason why the cop in blue should take out his gun out of his holster. None whatsoever. The prisoner was handcuffed and sitting on the ground, violently thrashing about. If he can't control a prisoner, handcuffed and sitting on the ground, call in for help, but, under no circumstance, should the cop take out his handgun. Why did he do it? What was said in those final moments?

One thing is for sure, the cops lied about what truly transpired.

The suspect was handcuffed on the ground and the cop could have called for extra help. Plenty of help outside the door. The cop had plenty of room to flee. It is hard to conclude that the standby guy hit the cop's hand. This surely should be further investigated.

all they had to do was stay 3 feet away and watch him struggle. he would have been worn out and done (he nearly was anyway) within minutes.

This was murder. At the minimum it was manslaughter.

I hope this good guy with a gun does time.

If a DA filed murder charges, even second degree, they would have to prove intent and motive.
This is a slam dunk manslaughter charge because the weapon should definitely have remained holstered...

That is intent.

Only in the world of LE is the kind of parsing you are doing seen as less than delusional. Anywhere else, when you pull a gun on an unarmed person and shoot them, it is murder.

I am seeing a ham-handed and foolish brandishing of the weapon and accidental contact between the gun hand and the other person's arm (the police report may read as an embellishment, but it is factually true that the gun discharges at the exact instant of that contact).

I am not trying to say there was no crime here...just that we on the left are not supposed to be the lemming herd of followers that reject facts and argue for pre-determined conclusions. Throwing around loaded terms like execution and murderer in this case is ignoring the fact that there IS some gray area here where the shooting of the gun, the spot the vicitim was shot and the way it plays out frame by frame makes the official story somewhat plausible.

Agree to disagree, but I don't want DU to be the "liberal" Red State with a bunch of seals harping and clapping at each other blindly.

"we on the left are not supposed to be the lemming herd of followers that reject facts and argue for pre-determined conclusions"

The fucking video is crystal clear. There is no "gray area" except in the mind of law enforcement groupies who think LEOs are above the law.

That video is NOT crystal clear execution or murder.

It IS deplorable conduct, reckless brandishing of a loaded weapon and an accidental discharge of the weapon that is clearly manslaughter but not murder.

Being a douchebag about it does not make your point of view any more clear or build a consensus. That video if you freeze frame the exact moment of the shot being fired shows the inadvertent contact of the two officers. Freeze frame it and look for yourself...its just NOT crystal clear to everyone and I'm not being passive aggressive, I am flat out telling you that you come across as a wild-eyed lunatic or devoted follower of an agenda to say that the video CLEARLY shows murder.

If that case went to trial as a murder charge, the cop beats the rap 99 out of 100 times.
If it goes to trial as a manslaughter charge, I would bet conviction is likely in maybe 67% of the time.

Are you interested in justice or just bashing on police blindly? There are plenty of reasons to bash on police and the police state in America without conflating a case of manslaughter and horrific loss of judgement and life to pre-meditated cold-blooded murder.

It's a common movement when firing, especially in a stressful situation.

That wasn't an accidental discharge. The gun and hand move forward as he fires and then recoils.

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/murder-vs-manslaughter-state-mind.html

I appreciate what you are saying - in the video, the shooter is moving forward, but when I look at the whole context of his movements, I don't see that as part of an intention action to aim and fire. He stands up freely, reaches for what appears to be something on the left side of his belt (again, I assuming this would be mace, but I have no proof of that...it could have been something else), whatever he was going for on the left side gives him momentary difficulty and he switches to his sidearm on the right side of his belt. Now standing and stupidly brandishing his loaded and safety-free service pistol, he tries to grasp Saenz with his free left arm when the beige-shirted officer is thrown off balance and backward, then the shot occurs.

Was it caused entirely by the contact of the two? I could not say for sure and I don't believe a jury would ever believe anyone who says that they could either.

The location of the shot (in the victim's shoulder and at a downward angle that surely caused vital organs to be struck by the bullet) also indicate an accidental shot and not an intentional one. From that range, what is it about 2 feet?, no one who has any training whatsoever in killing with a pistol would aim at the shoulder. They would either fire center mass or head if the intent is to kill from point blank range. You simply don't aim for a downward trajectory small target if you are intentionally trying to kill.

All of this does not for one second imply that I believe the shooter is innocent of all crimes or fit to be a police officer, I just don't see the video as clear-cut murder. At a bare minimum, we should all be able to agree that the clearing of all charges is a grave miscarriage of justice and something that should be remedied post haste.

You don't sound like a voice of reason, you sound like the cause of this problem. This is going to continue until there is real accountability.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025137442

he was on the ground with nobody in harms way while he flailed wildly on the ground. Left alone he would have simply worn himself out in a matter of seconds, in fact it appears he was already there at the time of the shot.

This was murder.

Officer jumping or falling back swings arm and hits the other officers gun. Where was backup? Having a laugh watching security cam? I think it is way short of murder but there is a lot of wrong going on in the video.

There was no reason for the gun to be out. If it happened while someone was robbing a liquor store you'd never think of any conclusion other than premeditated murder.

http://www.elpasotimes.com/news/ci_25174675/grand-jury-declines-charge-el-paso-police-officer

The actions of that officer are morally indefensible. As has been noted many times, the trend this event is part of shows the profile of a police state, not an enlightened democracy.

where everything is completely screwed up and backwards? America I'm sorry but somewhere along the way you lost your marbles.