Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

alp227

(32,019 posts)
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 02:22 AM Sep 2012

Thom Hartmann: Here's why we should not have a standing army in times of peace



(From the August 27 show) Thom Hartmann shares a prime example of why we should not have a standing army in times of peace in the US. (Source: AP article "Military Terror Plot: Murder Case Uncovers Terror Plot By 'Militia' Within U.S. Military&quot

Thom also excerpts a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to David Humphreys in 1793: "There are instruments so dangerous to the rights of the nation and which place them so totally at the mercy of their governors that those governors, whether legislative or executive, should be restrained from keeping such instruments on foot but in well-defined cases. Such an instrument is a standing army."

Also this from Jefferson's 1801 State of the Union address: "For defense against invasion their number is as nothing, nor is it conceived needful or safe that a standing army should be kept up in time of peace for that purpose."

And a letter Jefferson wrote in 1807: "The spirit of this country is totally adverse to a large military force."
5 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Thom Hartmann: Here's why we should not have a standing army in times of peace (Original Post) alp227 Sep 2012 OP
We never did, until now, but you have to define "times of peace"... TreasonousBastard Sep 2012 #1
Our problem is that our national security function which includes the JDPriestly Sep 2012 #2
The only "industry" this country has left Plucketeer Sep 2012 #3
I don't have time to watch the video right now, but I disagree with the premise. HopeHoops Sep 2012 #4
Curiously, as an employee of Russian state television, how does Thom feel about..... marble falls Sep 2012 #5

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
1. We never did, until now, but you have to define "times of peace"...
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 04:48 AM
Sep 2012

Jefferson was thinking about the large standing armies of Europe that tended to cause mischief. He was also realizing that the US was largely free from threats of invasion,so had no need for a standing army. He didn't seem to object much to having a Navy, though. And he didn't object much to a our militias killing off any of the natives in the way of progress.

Note that these letters were before 1812, when an army came in handy when the threat of invasion wasn't so small after all.

It doesn't take much to build an army when you need one. Not that easy, as noted during the Civil War, but it gets done. After WWI we pretty much shut down the Army to under 200,000 professional cadre, but look how fast we ramped it up after Pearl Harbor.

But he's talking about now, and he's talking about peacetime. The first problem with that is there are plenty of people around who will argue that we are not actually at peace. Then there are those who will argue that it is in our interest to extend a veil of protection over our allies and business partners in order to maintain stability. Being the only superpower, we have obligations, and may be the last protection from worldwide anarchy. Then there's that chunk of the GDP that the Pentagon owns, shutting it all down would set us into a major depression.

He's also talking about a small group of malcontents starting trouble. And who were caught. He thinks this is evidence of a larger problem, but gives no evidence of that.

Being a Quaker, my immediate reaction is to damn the torpedoes and shut it all down. In practical terms, however, much of this is true, and much can be argued, particularly about just how we're using this power we have.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
2. Our problem is that our national security function which includes the
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 10:12 AM
Sep 2012

military and intelligence elements of our government have already taken over.

The men and women in our national security institutions are the most entrenched in their jobs. For example, because the military promotes from within and its promotions are reviewed only by members of our democratically elected government when the very top positions are at issue, the most staunchly entrenched bureaucracy that we have is in our military and intelligence organizations.

There is no objective way to review their performance. Our wars become longer and longer and more and more expensive and take place in areas that are more and more remote. Expenditures are mysterious, some of them designedly so.

Right now, our national security functions just sort of work on their own like some diabolical, robotic mechanism.

This is the greatest threat to our country now -- the national security bureaucracy. It is a black hole that swallows money and regurgitates death.

We need national security. But we need national security that WE control. We don't need national security that controls us.

I don't know how to fix this because, as I said, we do need national security. You cannot live in a big city without locking your doors when you leave your house. National security is a fact of life. And nowadays, national security means a strong military defense.

The problem is how do we, the people, control our national security institutions not whether or not we should have them.

Right now, we are really ruled by our generals and our intelligence whatever they are called. They keep a low profile, but they run things.

What is likely to happen next? Struggles for power within our national security apparatus. And then one part of it will rise to run everything -- and take over our entire government. That is the coup that we can anticipate unless we do something to get more transparency in our national security function and more balance between our elected government and this parallel bureaucracy.

 

Plucketeer

(12,882 posts)
3. The only "industry" this country has left
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 11:27 AM
Sep 2012

is as war machine builder and mercenaries. Everything else is outsourced.

 

HopeHoops

(47,675 posts)
4. I don't have time to watch the video right now, but I disagree with the premise.
Tue Sep 11, 2012, 11:04 AM
Sep 2012

The discipline and coordination of the training is a legitimate reason for a standing army. I do NOT however think we should have troops outside our borders without a legitimate reason. Why the fuck are there still troops in Germany? I'm a bit of an isolationist in that respect, but if we need a rapid response to a situation, trained and coordinated forces are essential.

marble falls

(57,079 posts)
5. Curiously, as an employee of Russian state television, how does Thom feel about.....
Tue Sep 11, 2012, 12:49 PM
Sep 2012

the Russian army and Russian military aid to the Syrian state????

Latest Discussions»Retired Forums»Video & Multimedia»Thom Hartmann: Here's why...