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nationalize the fed

(2,169 posts)
Thu Jun 5, 2014, 07:24 PM Jun 2014

Hydrogen Fuel Finally Graduating From Lab to City Streets

Christopher Martin Bloomberg News Jun 5, 2014

Once relegated to the realm of science projects, hydrogen fuel cells are starting to displace fossil fuels as a means of powering cars, homes and businesses.


H2 station, Copenhagen, Denmark. H2 stations can be installed in 48 hours.

On June 10, in the latest addition to mainstream fuel-cell use, Hyundai Motor Co. will begin deliveries of a consumer SUV in Southern California. The technology is already producing electricity for the grid in Connecticut. AT&T Inc. is using fuel cells to power server farms, and Wal-Mart Stores Inc. uses hydrogen-powered fork lifts. Later this summer, FedEx Corp. will begin using hydrogen cargo tractors at its Memphis air hub.

“This is the most exciting time for fuel cells in my career,” said Daniel Dedrick, head of hydrogen and combustion technologies at Sandia National Laboratories in Livermore, California. The hydrogen market “is starting to accelerate.”

Fuel cells produce electricity from hydrogen in a process that dates back to the 1830s, yet high costs have historically made the technology better suited for Apollo space missions and Soviet submarines. In recent years, the technology has made big strides, and prices are falling. And because the process produces little or no greenhouse gases, hydrogen power stands to get a boost in the wake of President Barack Obama’s recent call for tighter controls on carbon emissions...

...“The shift to hydrogen is inevitable, and it’s happening faster than we expected,” said Amory Lovins, founder of the Rocky Mountain Institute, a non-profit clean energy research organization based in Snowmass, Colorado...

MORE: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-06-04/clean-hydrogen-advances-amid-fuel-cell-technology-gains.html

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Hydrogen Fuel Finally Graduating From Lab to City Streets (Original Post) nationalize the fed Jun 2014 OP
Where does the hydrogen come from? wercal Jun 2014 #1
Now now, we're not supposed to ask about that, nor about how much power it takes to produce arcane1 Jun 2014 #2
I know wercal Jun 2014 #5
Honda has an idea nationalize the fed Jun 2014 #3
Interesting concept wercal Jun 2014 #6
I've just noticed that my post only addressed the solar aspect, not wind. wercal Jun 2014 #7
Jack Nicholson in the '70s nationalize the fed Jun 2014 #4

wercal

(1,370 posts)
5. I know
Thu Jun 5, 2014, 07:45 PM
Jun 2014

But I wish somebody would take a shot at answering.

Then I'd get to ask how efficiently hydrogen can be transported, and delivered to the station.

nationalize the fed

(2,169 posts)
3. Honda has an idea
Thu Jun 5, 2014, 07:41 PM
Jun 2014

How about Solar?

http://world.honda.com/FuelCell/SolarHydrogenStation/

How about a Solar Hydrogen Gas Station?



How about Wind?

Siemens plans electrolyzer system to store wind power as hydrogen. The system, equipped with an electrolyzer from Siemens, will convert surplus electricity from wind farms to hydrogen. The hydrogen will then be stored locally in tankers or fed directly into the natural gas grid or used for fuel cell vehicles. http://www.elp.com/articles/2014/05/siemens-plans-electrolyzer-system-to-store-wind-power-as-hydrogen.html

More Solar? Ok!

Hydrogen energy storage: power ramp-up at the MYRTE test platform. "Since 1/2012, this platform has connected photovoltaic solar panels to a hydrogen-based storage system. By joining the power grid, this provides a solution to the problem of intermittency & makes it one of the rare installations.." http://www.pennenergy.com/articles/pennenergy/2014/05/hydrogen-energy-storage-power-ramp-up-at-the-myrte-test-platform.html

An engineer speaks:
Toyota wants you to meet an 'obsessed' hydrogen fuel cell engineer
"So I can work on a car that has zero emission, that uses fuel you can make from any domestic resource, fills up in a matter of minutes and can completely replace the internal combustion vehicle?" She says. "I became obsessed."

http://green.autoblog.com/2014/05/08/toyota-wants-you-to-meet-obsessed-hydrogen-fuel-cell-engineer/

wercal

(1,370 posts)
6. Interesting concept
Thu Jun 5, 2014, 07:58 PM
Jun 2014

Solar is often used with an energy storage device, because it is very difficult to match load to demand in an intermittent power source.

IOW, a lot of people with solar panels on their house have batteries in their basement.

So the question is, is storing energy in a chemical battery more efficient than storing energy in hydrogen. I suspect, that each station's electrolysis will be on a relatively small scale, and be a version that gets 60% efficiency. So, while I haven't run the numbers, and don't know for a fact, hydrogen is probably a poor energy storage device, when compared to a battery.

However, a hydrogen fill up takes minutes, not hours. So that's a good thing.

And its emission free with the solar setup (discounting the energy input to make the panels)...not bad.

Scalable? I doubt it. This would be useful to fuel up a small number of cars each day, probably as part of a small fleet - maybe a courier service or taxi cabs. The amount of energy available to each square foot of solar panel is finite, and so will the energy produced by them.

Just to get a 'feel' for what this station could produce - at best, the panels above each fueling point are twice as many as a normal house might have. And lets say, at best, a normal house might produce 150% of its power needs with panels...so we've essentially got 3 times daily needs (average of 30 kwh). So each pump has 90 kwh going into it. Assuming a best case 80% efficiency, the equivalent of 72 kwh is available after the conversion to hydrogen. I know a Volt takes at least 12 kwh to charge and go 40 miles. So, we've got the equivalent of 6 charges, or 240 miles. So one or two vehicles can fill up at each pump per day.

Works well for a small fleet - but not for a commercial gas station.

wercal

(1,370 posts)
7. I've just noticed that my post only addressed the solar aspect, not wind.
Thu Jun 5, 2014, 08:07 PM
Jun 2014

Per the article, a wind farm could be hooked up to this station also, allowing it to fuel more vehicles.

I have long been fascinated with the mating of wind (and its intermittent nature) with water.

But instead of losing 20-40% of the energy in a conversion to hydrogen, there is a much more efficient way to mate the two, without converting the water to hydrogen at all.

Essentially, when output outpaces load, wind power is diverted to lift water. Then, when the load outpaces the output, the water is released across a turbine, to generate power. It helps increase the reliability of wind power, and reduce the base load fossil fuel grid necessary to back up wind power. This method has been in use in Portugal for many years. And, I believe it to be a more efficient use manner of using wind and water together, than converting electricity into hydrogen.

BTW, the same trick, of lifting water and then releasing it when more power is needed, is used on at least one nuclear power plant in this country (I believe in Michigan somewhere). Its sort of a reverse situation - the output is not that intermittent at all, and a lot of energy is wasted at night as heat into the cooling towers. This water lifting scenario captures some of that wasted energy, and makes it available for peak load times.

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