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nationalize the fed

(2,169 posts)
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 06:59 AM Jun 2014

Amory B. Lovins, CEO Rocky Mountain Institute: Twenty Hydrogen Myths

Note: Originally published in 2003 and updated in 2005.
Hydrogen Tech is even cheaper and better today in 2014 than when this was written

Twenty Hydrogen Myths
AUTHOR: Lovins, Amory


YEAR: 2003
DOCUMENT TYPE: Report or White Paper
PUBLISHER: Rocky Mountain Institute



This peer-reviewed white paper offers both lay and technical readers a documented primer on basic hydrogen facts, weighs competing opinions, and corrects twenty widespread misconceptions. Some of these include the following: a hydrogen industry would need to be developed from scratch; hydrogen is too dangerous for common use; making hydrogen uses more energy than it yields; we lack a mechanism to store hydrogen in cars; and hydrogen is too expensive to compete with gasoline. This paper explains why the rapidly growing engagement of business, civil society, and government in devising and achieving a transition to a hydrogen economy is warranted and, if properly done, could yield important national and global benefits.

Abstract

Recent public interest in hydrogen has elicited a great deal of conflicting, confusing, and often ill-informed commentary. This peer-reviewed white paper offers both lay and technical readers, particularly in the United States, a documented primer on basic hydrogen facts, weighs competing opinions, and corrects twenty widespread misconceptions. It explains why the rapidly growing engagement of business, civil society, and government in devising and achieving a transition to a hydrogen economy is warranted and, if properly done, could yield important national and global benefits.

About the author

Physicist Amory Lovins is cofounder and CEO of Rocky Mountain Institute (www.rmi.org) and Chairman of Hypercar, Inc. (www.hypercar.com), RMI’s fourth for-profit spinoff (in which, to declare an interest, he holds minor equity options). Published in 28 books and hundreds of papers, his work has been recognized by the “Alternative Nobel,” Onassis, Nissan, Shingo, and Mitchell Prizes, a MacArthur Fellowship, the Happold Medal, eight honorary doctorates, and the Heinz, Lindbergh, World Technology, and “Hero for the Planet” Awards. He has advised industry and government worldwide on energy, resources, environment, development, and security for the past three decades.

About the publisher

Rocky Mountain Institute is an independent, entrepreneurial, nonprofit applied research center founded in 1982. Its ~50 staff foster the efficient and restorative use of resources to make the world secure, just, prosperous, and life-sustaining. The majority of its ~$7-million annual revenue is earned by consultancy, chiefly for the private sector; the rest comes from foundation grants and private gifts. Much of the context of its work is summarized in Natural Capitalism (www.natcap.org). Donations are welcome and tax-deductible (#74-2244146). RMI is at 1739 Snowmass Creek Road, Snowmass, CO 81654, phone + 1 970 927-3851

Twenty myths

Myth #1. A whole hydrogen industry would need to be developed from scratch.

Myth #2. Hydrogen is too dangerous, explosive, or “volatile” for common use as a fuel.

Myth #3. Making hydrogen uses more energy than it yields, so it’s prohibitively inefficient

Myth #4. Delivering hydrogen to users would consume most of the energy it contains...

...Myth #17. A viable hydrogen transition would take 30–50 years or more to complete, and hardly anything worthwhile could be done sooner than 20 years

http://www.rmi.org/Knowledge-Center/Library/E03-05_TwentyHydrogenMyths

Full document (PDF)
http://www.rmi.org/cms/Download.aspx?id=6667&file=E03-05_20HydrogenMyths.pdf&title=Twenty+Hydrogen+Myths
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Amory B. Lovins, CEO Rocky Mountain Institute: Twenty Hydrogen Myths (Original Post) nationalize the fed Jun 2014 OP
He can't be serious about myth #3 longship Jun 2014 #1
He's talking about the complete statement "p implies q", not just the first half "p" bananas Jun 2014 #2
Long term hydrogen storage needs some real R & D FogerRox Jun 2014 #3
Thanks. longship Jun 2014 #4
Hydrogen tank farm in New Jersey nationalize the fed Jun 2014 #5
Very impressive hydrogen tank farm. FogerRox Jun 2014 #6
especially for something that doesn't exist! nationalize the fed Jun 2014 #8
What is the leakage rate ... oldhippie Jun 2014 #7
He goes into a lot of detail in the 2 hour video walk through nationalize the fed Jun 2014 #9
OK, so presumably you watched it. What is the answer? oldhippie Jun 2014 #10

longship

(40,416 posts)
1. He can't be serious about myth #3
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 07:44 AM
Jun 2014

Unless Lovins can figure out how to violate the laws of thermodynamics -- note: he cannot -- creating hydrogen will always take more energy than is generated by using it. Myth #3 is a fact, not a myth. So Lovins is just plain wrong about this item. I would agree with him, however, that that does not make it prohibitively expensive to generate since one can use renewable green sources to generate it.

But a hydrogen energy economy is still a damned good idea when combined with renewable sources. It could provide a helluva good storage medium for solar, wind, or other intermittent power generation schemes.

bananas

(27,509 posts)
2. He's talking about the complete statement "p implies q", not just the first half "p"
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 02:17 PM
Jun 2014

where p = "Making hydrogen uses more energy than it yields"
and q = "it’s prohibitively inefficient".

From the pdf:

Myth #3. Making hydrogen uses more energy than it yields, so it’s prohibitively inefficient.

Any conversion from one form of energy to another consumes more useful energy than it yields.
If it could do the opposite, creating energy out of nothing, you could create a perpetual-motion
machine violating the laws of physics. Conversion losses are unavoidable; the issue is whether
they’re worth incurring. If they were intolerable as a matter of principle, as Myth #3 implies,
then we’d have to stop making gasoline from crude oil (~73–91% efficient from wellhead to retail
pump) and electricity from fossil fuel (~29–35% efficient from coal at the power plant to
retail meter). Such conversion losses are thus not specific to producing hydrogen. Hydrogen production
is typically about 72 to 85 percent efficient in natural-gas reformers or ~70–75% efficient
in electrolyzers; the rest is heat that may also be reusable. (These efficiency figures are all

<snip>



edit: remove footnote numbers from the excerpt.

FogerRox

(13,211 posts)
3. Long term hydrogen storage needs some real R & D
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 04:25 PM
Jun 2014
https://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/fct_h2_storage.pdf

Certainly with current technology we wont see tank farms of hydrogen like we see tank farms of oil and gas, or Nat Gas & Propane.

Most current hydrogen stations for fuel cell cars are using onsite osmosis to avoid hydrogen leaking thru the walls of storage tanks. IIRC there are only about 1000 miles of hydrogen pipelines in the US, nearly all along the Gulf of Mexico serving the oil industry.

longship

(40,416 posts)
4. Thanks.
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 04:28 PM
Jun 2014

That's another problem with H2. It is a very small molecule which leaks through just about anything. Add pressure and it leaks even more.

nationalize the fed

(2,169 posts)
5. Hydrogen tank farm in New Jersey
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 05:55 PM
Jun 2014


Inside the Solar-Hydrogen House: No More Power Bills--Ever
A New Jersey resident generates and stores all the power he needs with solar panels and hydrogen http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/hydrogen-house/

2013 Youtube update and tour


IIRC there are only about 1000 miles of hydrogen pipelines in the US


Hydrogen pipeline transport

1938 - Rhine-Ruhr The first 240 km (150 mi) hydrogen pipes that are constructed of regular pipe steel, compressed hydrogen pressure 210–20 bars (21,000–2,000 kPa), diameter 250–300 millimetres (9.8–11.8 in). Still in operation.
1973 – 30 km (19 mi) pipeline in Isbergues, France.
1985 - Extension of the pipeline from Isbergues to Zeebrugge
1997 - Connection of the pipeline to Rotterdam
1997 - 2000: Development of two hydrogen networks, one near Corpus Christi, Texas, and one between Freeport and Texas City.
2009 - 150 mi (240 km) extension of the pipeline from Plaquemine to Chalmette
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_pipeline_transport

Globally, Air Products’ pipeline operational expertise is evidenced by its network of systems. Pipelines offer a safe, robust and reliable supply of hydrogen to the refinery and petrochemical industry around the world. Besides this newly announced pipeline in the Alberta Industrial Heartland, Air Products also has a hydrogen pipeline in Sarnia, Ontario, Canada, and operates the largest hydrogen pipeline network in the United States Gulf Coast, as well as pipeline systems in California in the U.S. and in Rotterdam, the Netherlands.
http://www.airproducts.com/company/news-center/2010/03/0330-air-products-hydrogen-pipeline-in-canada-inks-three-supply-agreements.aspx


First there were no hydrogen pipelines, then no tank farms...

"700 bar is just a start"

nationalize the fed

(2,169 posts)
9. He goes into a lot of detail in the 2 hour video walk through
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 05:44 PM
Jun 2014

It's not surprising that people don't have the time to watch it but have plenty of time to comment on something they really don't know anything about

Remember- all sorts of progress is expected when it comes to lithium batteries and "swap stations" (never going to be any) but Hydrogen tech is supposedly stuck in the year 2005. Fascinating.

 

oldhippie

(3,249 posts)
10. OK, so presumably you watched it. What is the answer?
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 06:05 PM
Jun 2014

Does he say what the leakage rates is, or not? Does he even know?

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