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elleng

(130,133 posts)
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 11:20 AM Oct 2015

Netanyahu, Saying Palestinian Mufti Inspired Holocaust, Draws Broad Criticism.

'Israeli historians and opposition politicians on Wednesday joined Palestinians in denouncing Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel for saying it was a Palestinian, the grand mufti of Jerusalem, who gave Hitler the idea of annihilating European Jews during World War II. . .

Prof. Meir Litvak, a historian at Tel Aviv University, called the speech “a lie” and “a disgrace.” Prof. Moshe Zimmermann, a specialist of German history at Hebrew University, said, “With this, Netanyahu joins a long line of people that we would call Holocaust deniers.”

Isaac Herzog, leader of the opposition in the Israeli Parliament, said the accusation was “a dangerous historical distortion,” and he demanded that Mr. Netanyahu “correct it immediately.”

Even Moshe Yaalon, the defense minister and a senior member of Mr. Netanyahu’s Likud Party, said in a radio interview that “history is actually very, very clear.”

“Hitler initiated it,” he said. “Haj Amin al-Husseini joined him.”'

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/22/world/middleeast/netanyahu-saying-palestinian-mufti-inspired-holocaust-draws-broad-criticism.html?

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Netanyahu, Saying Palestinian Mufti Inspired Holocaust, Draws Broad Criticism. (Original Post) elleng Oct 2015 OP
There's nothing sacred to this man. Nothing. Nothing. geek tragedy Oct 2015 #1
What do you think of Herzog? oberliner Oct 2015 #3
He would definitely be an improvement. geek tragedy Oct 2015 #4
Netanyahu doesn't have a mandate oberliner Oct 2015 #5
Remember that YB is technically in the geek tragedy Oct 2015 #6
They only got six seats oberliner Oct 2015 #7
Meretz has 5 seats. Current coalition plus YB=67. geek tragedy Oct 2015 #8
ZU would have to win over some Bibi voters oberliner Oct 2015 #9
But what could ZU say to bring those voters in while also geek tragedy Oct 2015 #10
They can say they will end the conflict by establishing permanent borders and a peace agreement oberliner Oct 2015 #13
The criticism is delicious. R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2015 #2
AND Germany tells Netanyahu: We are responsible for the Holocaust. elleng Oct 2015 #11
I think Netanyahu should be invited to go on a tour to Auschwitz and see for himself what Little Tich Oct 2015 #12
sounds like Bibi is getting pretty desperate but this time he ummm took a leap over Jaws azurnoir Oct 2015 #14
so the founding father of Palestinian nationalism only helped with the Holocaust 6chars Oct 2015 #15
And the founders of Israel helped with the Nakba... R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2015 #16
and anti-Arab racism is prevalent amongst Zionists. What's your point? geek tragedy Oct 2015 #17
All of this defense of Netanbooboo by so-called liberals is very telling. R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2015 #18
In what way did the Mufti help with the Holocaust? Little Tich Oct 2015 #19
Various ways 6chars Oct 2015 #20
I think you're supporting a falsified view of how the Holocaust happened. Little Tich Oct 2015 #23
The Mufti was actively supportive of Nazi Germany's efforts to annihilate world Jewry oberliner Oct 2015 #33
You should consider expanding your research beyond a single Wikipedia article oberliner Oct 2015 #21
Too bad that no serious Holocaust scholar shares your view. Little Tich Oct 2015 #22
Huh? oberliner Oct 2015 #30
Weak sauce. Little Tich Oct 2015 #34
What does the phrase "willing Nazi collaborator" mean to you? oberliner Oct 2015 #35
Collaborator, eh? Little Tich Oct 2015 #40
Geez, what is with all this denial? Illan Pappe lying.... shira Oct 2015 #37
I fight against weak sauce everywhere. n/t Little Tich Oct 2015 #41
See #43 below. That's not weak sauce. n/t shira Oct 2015 #44
you should perhaps add edit times for your link-This page was last modified on 23 October 2015 azurnoir Oct 2015 #24
Why is that important? oberliner Oct 2015 #31
what is going on here is linking the Palestinians to the Holocaust by any means necessary azurnoir Oct 2015 #25
Psssst..... Israeli Oct 2015 #26
Oy azurnoir Oct 2015 #28
That's it in a nutshell n/t TubbersUK Oct 2015 #29
Wrong oberliner Oct 2015 #32
Oh so what you're saying is that it's to delgitimize any notion that it's the occupation azurnoir Oct 2015 #36
Why is it so important to maintain the occupation.... shira Oct 2015 #38
so you're saying it's really an ethnic thing with Palestinians/Arabs? Like a DNA thing? azurnoir Oct 2015 #39
Have you noticed the drowning man syndrome amongst the hasbara crowd? R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2015 #42
The Germans genocided 60, 000 people in Namibia in the early 1900s. applegrove Oct 2015 #27
Mufti did have a hand in Jews being killed during WW2 era.... shira Oct 2015 #43
Roosevelt and Churchill are much more guilty in that regard than the Mufti. Little Tich Oct 2015 #45
They're all complicit. But American & UK leaders changed.... shira Oct 2015 #46
That's debatable. Little Tich Oct 2015 #47
so Palestinians (Muslims) kill Jews according to you azurnoir Oct 2015 #48
That's the leadership - and the extremists they incite. n/t shira Oct 2015 #49
 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
1. There's nothing sacred to this man. Nothing. Nothing.
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 11:36 AM
Oct 2015

He is an abomination.

Willing to exploit his own people's tragedy to score crass, dishonest points.



 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
3. What do you think of Herzog?
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 03:32 PM
Oct 2015

Do you think he would be a good next PM?

There has got to be someone who can lead this country in the right direction.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
4. He would definitely be an improvement.
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 03:52 PM
Oct 2015

But what kind of mandate could he win?

He is not a leader if the country will not follow.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
5. Netanyahu doesn't have a mandate
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 04:06 PM
Oct 2015

His government has a one-seat majority. The thinnest margin possible.

Yet he acts like he has a mandate anyway.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
7. They only got six seats
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 04:33 PM
Oct 2015

Remember that Herzog's party came in second and the Arab Joint List came in third.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
9. ZU would have to win over some Bibi voters
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 05:23 PM
Oct 2015

Maybe if he says enough stupid and offensive things - that will help.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
10. But what could ZU say to bring those voters in while also
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 08:07 PM
Oct 2015

being able to form a coalition with the Joint List?

The two scenarios that could happen would be:

1) national unity government with Likud as the junior partner (ZU, Likud, Yesh Atid, Kulanu);

2) Likud blows up due to Bibi agreeing to Palestinian state.

So, really one scenario that could happen.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
13. They can say they will end the conflict by establishing permanent borders and a peace agreement
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 01:34 AM
Oct 2015

Something along the lines of the Geneva Initiative.

Maybe they can follow on the heels of Bernie Sanders winning the US presidential election.

 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
2. The criticism is delicious.
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 12:51 PM
Oct 2015
“There is no Palestinian people, and, they are responsible for the Holocaust.” https://t.co/fW8rjpRoyR — Mairav Zonszein (@MairavZ) October 21, 2015



Hitler was thinking of going vegetarian, but after talking with the Mufti he said he might as well go vegan. #themuftichangedmymind — Ami Kaufman (@AmiKaufman) October 21, 2015

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)
12. I think Netanyahu should be invited to go on a tour to Auschwitz and see for himself what
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 01:22 AM
Oct 2015

actually happened, and learn the truth about the Holocaust.

6chars

(3,967 posts)
15. so the founding father of Palestinian nationalism only helped with the Holocaust
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 06:42 PM
Oct 2015

and didn't inspire it. The fact that such a horrible anti-semite and Hitler propagandist is idolized by the PLO which he helped found and by Hamas is still pretty shocking. If you read about this al-Husseni, his actions were shameful.

Even if Netanyahu overstated the case, it is an important point that Jew hatred and worse is still highly prevalent in the Palestinian nationalist movement. We tend to look the other way at this, but that mindset is a barrier to peace to say the least.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
17. and anti-Arab racism is prevalent amongst Zionists. What's your point?
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 07:13 PM
Oct 2015

Nationalism and tribal identities tend to promote bigotry.

The liberals in the room knew that already.

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)
19. In what way did the Mufti help with the Holocaust?
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 09:55 PM
Oct 2015

I've tried to find out, but I've run a blank. For example, the Wikipedia article on him doesn't mention any participation in the Holocaust, and usually such a fact would've been mentioned - it's not a trifling matter. From what I understand the Mufti was one of the bad guys, but he wasn't complicit in the Holocaust.

Do you actually have some facts to go with your accusation, or is this just an unfounded attempt at smearing Arabs?

6chars

(3,967 posts)
20. Various ways
Sat Oct 24, 2015, 10:06 PM
Oct 2015

Creating and disseminating pronazi antisemitic propaganda through the war
Recruiting Serbian Muslim nazi unit that did hitlers work there
Convincing Nazil leaders not to send Jews to middle east and to take car of them in Poland where he visited camps with Eichmann

I call that helping, though not inspiring.

He was really an unsavory fellow, and not a person to be lauded, and not a smear to say this. If there are Arabs who want to praise him today, it doesn't speak well of their views.

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)
23. I think you're supporting a falsified view of how the Holocaust happened.
Sat Oct 24, 2015, 11:57 PM
Oct 2015

You have a desire to smear Arabs with the collective guilt of participation in the Holocaust via the Mufti, even though he didn't participate in the holocaust.

Stay away from conspiracy theories, that's my advice.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
33. The Mufti was actively supportive of Nazi Germany's efforts to annihilate world Jewry
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 07:26 AM
Oct 2015

He sought to inspire Muslim men to serve in Axis military and auxiliary units and advocated the murder of Jews.

That's quoted from an article that you posted down thread.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
21. You should consider expanding your research beyond a single Wikipedia article
Sat Oct 24, 2015, 10:42 PM
Oct 2015

I daresay for subjects such as this, that would be one of the least useful places to start.

However, if Wikipedia articles are your preferred source of information, how about this one:

13th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Handschar (1st Croatian)

Relevant excerpts

The division fought briefly in the Syrmia region north of the Sava river prior to crossing into northeastern Bosnia. After crossing the Sava, it established a designated "security zone" in northeastern Bosnia between the Sava, Bosna, Drina and Spreča rivers. It also fought outside the security zone on several occasions, and earned a reputation for brutality and savagery, not only during combat operations, but also through atrocities committed against Serb and Jewish civilians.

...

Mufti of Jerusalem

In April 1943, the Mufti of Jerusalem, Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, was invited by Berger to assist in organising and recruiting Muslims into the Waffen-SS and other units. He was escorted by von Krempler, who spoke Turkish.[20] The Mufti successfully convinced the Muslims to ignore the declarations of the Sarajevo, Mostar and Banja Luka Ulama (Islamic clerics), who in 1941 forbade them from collaborating with the Ustaše.[21]

The Germans emphasised that al-Husayni had flown from Berlin to Sarajevo in order to bless and inspect the division. During his visit to Bosnia al-Husayni also convinced some important Muslim leaders that the formation of the division was in the interests of Islam.[22]

The Mufti insisted, "The most important task of this division must be to protect the homeland and families [of the Bosnian volunteers]; the division must not be permitted to leave Bosnia", but the Germans paid no attention

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Handschar_(1st_Croatian)

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)
22. Too bad that no serious Holocaust scholar shares your view.
Sat Oct 24, 2015, 11:55 PM
Oct 2015

I found an article from Haaretz where Holocaust scholars and Museums give their view on the Mufti's complicity in the Holocaust, and it's pretty clear that he had no role:

U.S. Holocaust Groups Mostly Silent on Hitler-mufti Speech

Source: Haaretz, Oct 22, 2015

“I join the chorus of historians throughout the world in clarifying the facts,” wrote David Marwell, Director of New York’s Museum of Jewish Heritage —  A Living Memorial to the Holocaust, in an email response to an interview request. “By the time the Grand Mufti met with Hitler at the end of November 1941, the Germans were already engaged in mass murder of the Jews.”


The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C. issued this statement in response to Haaretz’s inquiry: "Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, was an anti-Semite and willing Nazi collaborator. While actively supportive of Nazi Germany's efforts to annihilate world Jewry — he sought to inspire Muslim men to serve in Axis military and auxiliary units and advocated the murder of Jews — the 'Final Solution' would have occurred with or without his complicity.”


“I’m not sure I can add anything new to the discussion,” wrote Elizabeth Gelman, executive director of The Florida Holocaust Museum, in St. Petersburg. “As my colleagues have been widely quoted, the statement that Prime Minister Netanyahu made was factually incorrect. Germany itself has reaffirmed its responsibility for the Holocaust.” Gelman did not reply to follow-up questions.

Rafael Medoff, director of The David S. Wyman Institute for Holocaust Studies in Washington D.C., used the opportunity to write Haaretz that the entirety of the mufti’s role in the Holocaust, “aside from the many anti-Jewish speeches he broadcast to the Arab world from Germany, will not be known until the relevant Arab archives are opened.”


But one leading Holocaust scholar, Deborah Lipstadt, spoke more freely.

The implications of Netanyahu’s statement “are very bad,” said Lipstadt, a professor of modern Jewish history and Holocaust studies at Emory University in Atlanta. “The situation [in Israel] is terrible,” but “you don’t have to revise history to make that point.” His revision of long-accepted historical fact “certainly suggests that Jews play with the facts,” Lipstadt told Haaretz. “It was a big mistake on his part. He really went too far this time.”


Read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/.premium-1.681889

Note: The excerpts are taken from various paragraphs of the article, as the article is actually about something else.

Maybe you should give Deborah Lipstadt a call, tell her she's wrong...
 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
30. Huh?
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 07:20 AM
Oct 2015

My view is that Wikipedia should not be the sole source of information on this topic.

The Ha'aretz article you link to includes this paragraph:

The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C. issued this statement in response to Haaretz’s inquiry: "Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, was an anti-Semite and willing Nazi collaborator. While actively supportive of Nazi Germany's efforts to annihilate world Jewry — he sought to inspire Muslim men to serve in Axis military and auxiliary units and advocated the murder of Jews — the 'Final Solution' would have occurred with or without his complicity.”

Did you not read what you yourself posted?

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)
34. Weak sauce.
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 07:43 AM
Oct 2015

Show me a single serious Holocaust scholar who defines what the Mufti did as being actually complicit in the Holocaust...

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
35. What does the phrase "willing Nazi collaborator" mean to you?
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 07:58 AM
Oct 2015

That quote is from the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum (in the paragraph you posted above). Presumably that would constitute a serious Holocaust scholar.

Doesn't it mean the he collaborated with the Nazis willingly?

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)
40. Collaborator, eh?
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 07:52 PM
Oct 2015

There's a big difference between being a mere collaborator and actually being complicit in the Holocaust. I think you're hoping that people don't know enough about the Holocaust anymore so that they will be willing to swallow a new version where the Mufti is retroactively spliced in as one of perpetrators of the Holocaust.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
37. Geez, what is with all this denial? Illan Pappe lying....
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 04:32 PM
Oct 2015

Mahmoud Abbas still being a Holocaust Denier, and now the Mufti?

You know you can just acknowledge the obvious, and still hold to your overall general position.

Right?

The denial reeks of desperation. Defending the indefensible.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
24. you should perhaps add edit times for your link-This page was last modified on 23 October 2015
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 02:01 AM
Oct 2015

This page was last modified on 23 October 2015, at 15:09.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Handschar_(1st_Croatian)

it seems history is being written as we speak

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
31. Why is that important?
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 07:21 AM
Oct 2015

If anything it supports my notion that Wikipedia is not a good place to turn for information on this topic.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
25. what is going on here is linking the Palestinians to the Holocaust by any means necessary
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 02:05 AM
Oct 2015

there by justifying acts of Israel from 1948 through to the present

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
32. Wrong
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 07:23 AM
Oct 2015

The idea was to suggest that the hostility towards Jews in the region pre-dates the founding of Israel.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
36. Oh so what you're saying is that it's to delgitimize any notion that it's the occupation
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 04:01 PM
Oct 2015

that is fueling the conflict, well thanks for clarifying

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
38. Why is it so important to maintain the occupation....
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 04:37 PM
Oct 2015

....pushes people into wanting to kill mass numbers of Jews, from babies to the elderly?

It's not even debatable that all this hostility against Jews predated 1948 and 1967.

Is it really THAT important to "justify" all terror acts as a response to occupation?

I mean, seriously...

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
39. so you're saying it's really an ethnic thing with Palestinians/Arabs? Like a DNA thing?
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 05:39 PM
Oct 2015

the occupation has nothing to do with it

 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
42. Have you noticed the drowning man syndrome amongst the hasbara crowd?
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 11:35 PM
Oct 2015

Temple mount mumbly prayer...

Abbas is ineffective...

Abbas is responsible...

The Mufti (aka all Palestinians are bad) designed the Holocaust...

Bad Palestinian Muslim=terrorist...

Bad Israeli Jew=not terrorist...

"I'm a liberal, but I'll defend Netanyahu..."

"I'm a liberal, but I'll defend Bennet..."

"I'm a liberal, but I'll defend Shaked..."

Jews (aka illegal settlers) should have ROR in the West Bank...

Palestinians should not have ROR in Israel...

Pallywood...


The bigoted list goes on and on by the victimizers...as if they were the victims.
 

shira

(30,109 posts)
43. Mufti did have a hand in Jews being killed during WW2 era....
Mon Oct 26, 2015, 06:25 AM
Oct 2015

On 1 March 1944, while speaking on Radio Berlin, al-Husseini said: 'Arabs, rise as one man and fight for your sacred rights. Kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion. This saves your honor. God is with you.'[215][216][217]


Al-Husseini's attempts to block Jewish refugees

The Mufti opposed all immigration of Jews into Palestine. The Mufti’s numerous letters appealing to various governmental authorities to prevent Jewish emigration to Palestine have been widely republished and cited as documentary evidence of his collaboration with Nazis and his participative support for their genocidal actions. For instance, Husseini intervened on 13 May 1943, before the meeting with Himmler when he was informed of the Holocaust,[196] with the German Foreign Office to block possible transfers of Jews from Bulgaria, Hungary and Romania to Palestine, after reports reached him that 4,000 Jewish children accompanied by 500 adults had managed to reach Palestine. He asked that the Foreign Minister "to do his utmost" to block all such proposals and this request was complied with.[197] According to Idith Zertal, none of the documents presented at Eichmann's trial prove that it was the Mufti's interference, in these 'acts of total evil,' that prevented the children's rescue.[198] In June 1943 the Mufti recommended to the Hungarian minister that it would be better to send Jews in Hungary to Concentration Camps in Poland rather than let them find asylum in Palestine. A year later, on 25 July 1944 he wrote to the Hungarian foreign minister to register his objection to the release of certificates for 900 Jewish children and 100 adults for transfer from Hungary, fearing they might end up in Palestine. He suggested that if such transfers of population were deemed necessary, then:

I ask your Excellency to permit me to draw your attention to the necessity of preventing the Jews from leaving your country for Palestine, and if there are reasons which make their removal necessary, it would be indispensable and infinitely preferable to send them to other countries where they would find themselves under active control, for example, in Poland, thus avoiding danger and preventing damage."[199][200]

Haj Amin al-Husseini meeting with Heinrich Himmler (1943).

Haj Amin al-Husseini and Nazi collaborator Mile Budak in occupied Sarajevo (1943).

Achcar quotes the Mufti’s memoirs about these efforts to influence the Axis powers to prevent emigration of Eastern European Jews to Palestine:

We combatted this enterprise by writing to Ribbentrop, Himmler, and Hitler, and, thereafter, the governments of Italy, Hungary, Rumania, Bulgaria, Turkey, and other countries. We succeeded in foiling this initiative, a circumstance that led the Jews to make terrible accusations against me, in which they held me accountable for the liquidation of four hundred thousand Jews who were unable to emigrate to Palestine in this period. They added that I should be tried as a war criminal in Nurenberg.[201]

In November, 1943 the Mufti said:
It is the duty of Muhammadans in general and Arabs in particular to … drive all Jews from Arab and Muhammadan countries….Germany is also struggling against the common foe who oppressed Arabs and Muhammadans in their different countries. It has very clearly recognized the Jews for what they are and resolved to find a definitive solution [endgültige Lösung] for the Jewish danger that will eliminate the scourge that Jews represent in the world. ….[183]

In September 1943, intense negotiations to rescue 500 Jewish children from the Arbe concentration camp collapsed due to the objection of al-Husseini who blocked the children's departure to Turkey because they would end up in Palestine.[202]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini


Little Tich

(6,171 posts)
45. Roosevelt and Churchill are much more guilty in that regard than the Mufti.
Mon Oct 26, 2015, 08:55 AM
Oct 2015

They didn't exactly welcome Jewish refugees with open arms either...

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
46. They're all complicit. But American & UK leaders changed....
Mon Oct 26, 2015, 06:39 PM
Oct 2015

....their attitudes towards Jews, while the Palestinian leadership has not.

So it's not rocket science when linking all the crazy incitement and murder of civilians now to the same thing that happened before 1967, and before 1948.

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)
47. That's debatable.
Tue Oct 27, 2015, 12:27 AM
Oct 2015

When it actually came to Jews fleeing for their lives, the Allies were remarkably reluctant to take them in.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
48. so Palestinians (Muslims) kill Jews according to you
Tue Oct 27, 2015, 02:24 AM
Oct 2015

because that's what they do same reasons always, nothing in history changes that?



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