Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumNetanyahu, Saying Palestinian Mufti Inspired Holocaust, Draws Broad Criticism.
'Israeli historians and opposition politicians on Wednesday joined Palestinians in denouncing Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel for saying it was a Palestinian, the grand mufti of Jerusalem, who gave Hitler the idea of annihilating European Jews during World War II. . .
Prof. Meir Litvak, a historian at Tel Aviv University, called the speech a lie and a disgrace. Prof. Moshe Zimmermann, a specialist of German history at Hebrew University, said, With this, Netanyahu joins a long line of people that we would call Holocaust deniers.
Isaac Herzog, leader of the opposition in the Israeli Parliament, said the accusation was a dangerous historical distortion, and he demanded that Mr. Netanyahu correct it immediately.
Even Moshe Yaalon, the defense minister and a senior member of Mr. Netanyahus Likud Party, said in a radio interview that history is actually very, very clear.
Hitler initiated it, he said. Haj Amin al-Husseini joined him.'
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/22/world/middleeast/netanyahu-saying-palestinian-mufti-inspired-holocaust-draws-broad-criticism.html?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)He is an abomination.
Willing to exploit his own people's tragedy to score crass, dishonest points.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Do you think he would be a good next PM?
There has got to be someone who can lead this country in the right direction.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)But what kind of mandate could he win?
He is not a leader if the country will not follow.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)His government has a one-seat majority. The thinnest margin possible.
Yet he acts like he has a mandate anyway.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)opposition.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Remember that Herzog's party came in second and the Arab Joint List came in third.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)hard to see the math working for progress
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Maybe if he says enough stupid and offensive things - that will help.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)being able to form a coalition with the Joint List?
The two scenarios that could happen would be:
1) national unity government with Likud as the junior partner (ZU, Likud, Yesh Atid, Kulanu);
2) Likud blows up due to Bibi agreeing to Palestinian state.
So, really one scenario that could happen.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Something along the lines of the Geneva Initiative.
Maybe they can follow on the heels of Bernie Sanders winning the US presidential election.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Hitler was thinking of going vegetarian, but after talking with the Mufti he said he might as well go vegan. #themuftichangedmymind Ami Kaufman (@AmiKaufman) October 21, 2015
elleng
(130,133 posts)Little Tich
(6,171 posts)actually happened, and learn the truth about the Holocaust.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)6chars
(3,967 posts)and didn't inspire it. The fact that such a horrible anti-semite and Hitler propagandist is idolized by the PLO which he helped found and by Hamas is still pretty shocking. If you read about this al-Husseni, his actions were shameful.
Even if Netanyahu overstated the case, it is an important point that Jew hatred and worse is still highly prevalent in the Palestinian nationalist movement. We tend to look the other way at this, but that mindset is a barrier to peace to say the least.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Please proceed...
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Nationalism and tribal identities tend to promote bigotry.
The liberals in the room knew that already.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Little Tich
(6,171 posts)I've tried to find out, but I've run a blank. For example, the Wikipedia article on him doesn't mention any participation in the Holocaust, and usually such a fact would've been mentioned - it's not a trifling matter. From what I understand the Mufti was one of the bad guys, but he wasn't complicit in the Holocaust.
Do you actually have some facts to go with your accusation, or is this just an unfounded attempt at smearing Arabs?
6chars
(3,967 posts)Creating and disseminating pronazi antisemitic propaganda through the war
Recruiting Serbian Muslim nazi unit that did hitlers work there
Convincing Nazil leaders not to send Jews to middle east and to take car of them in Poland where he visited camps with Eichmann
I call that helping, though not inspiring.
He was really an unsavory fellow, and not a person to be lauded, and not a smear to say this. If there are Arabs who want to praise him today, it doesn't speak well of their views.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)You have a desire to smear Arabs with the collective guilt of participation in the Holocaust via the Mufti, even though he didn't participate in the holocaust.
Stay away from conspiracy theories, that's my advice.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)He sought to inspire Muslim men to serve in Axis military and auxiliary units and advocated the murder of Jews.
That's quoted from an article that you posted down thread.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I daresay for subjects such as this, that would be one of the least useful places to start.
However, if Wikipedia articles are your preferred source of information, how about this one:
13th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Handschar (1st Croatian)
Relevant excerpts
The division fought briefly in the Syrmia region north of the Sava river prior to crossing into northeastern Bosnia. After crossing the Sava, it established a designated "security zone" in northeastern Bosnia between the Sava, Bosna, Drina and Spreča rivers. It also fought outside the security zone on several occasions, and earned a reputation for brutality and savagery, not only during combat operations, but also through atrocities committed against Serb and Jewish civilians.
...
Mufti of Jerusalem
In April 1943, the Mufti of Jerusalem, Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, was invited by Berger to assist in organising and recruiting Muslims into the Waffen-SS and other units. He was escorted by von Krempler, who spoke Turkish.[20] The Mufti successfully convinced the Muslims to ignore the declarations of the Sarajevo, Mostar and Banja Luka Ulama (Islamic clerics), who in 1941 forbade them from collaborating with the Ustae.[21]
The Germans emphasised that al-Husayni had flown from Berlin to Sarajevo in order to bless and inspect the division. During his visit to Bosnia al-Husayni also convinced some important Muslim leaders that the formation of the division was in the interests of Islam.[22]
The Mufti insisted, "The most important task of this division must be to protect the homeland and families [of the Bosnian volunteers]; the division must not be permitted to leave Bosnia", but the Germans paid no attention
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Handschar_(1st_Croatian)
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)I found an article from Haaretz where Holocaust scholars and Museums give their view on the Mufti's complicity in the Holocaust, and it's pretty clear that he had no role:
U.S. Holocaust Groups Mostly Silent on Hitler-mufti Speech
Source: Haaretz, Oct 22, 2015
Rafael Medoff, director of The David S. Wyman Institute for Holocaust Studies in Washington D.C., used the opportunity to write Haaretz that the entirety of the muftis role in the Holocaust, aside from the many anti-Jewish speeches he broadcast to the Arab world from Germany, will not be known until the relevant Arab archives are opened.
The implications of Netanyahus statement are very bad, said Lipstadt, a professor of modern Jewish history and Holocaust studies at Emory University in Atlanta. The situation [in Israel] is terrible, but you dont have to revise history to make that point. His revision of long-accepted historical fact certainly suggests that Jews play with the facts, Lipstadt told Haaretz. It was a big mistake on his part. He really went too far this time.
Read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/.premium-1.681889
Note: The excerpts are taken from various paragraphs of the article, as the article is actually about something else.
Maybe you should give Deborah Lipstadt a call, tell her she's wrong...
oberliner
(58,724 posts)My view is that Wikipedia should not be the sole source of information on this topic.
The Ha'aretz article you link to includes this paragraph:
The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C. issued this statement in response to Haaretzs inquiry: "Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, was an anti-Semite and willing Nazi collaborator. While actively supportive of Nazi Germany's efforts to annihilate world Jewry he sought to inspire Muslim men to serve in Axis military and auxiliary units and advocated the murder of Jews the 'Final Solution' would have occurred with or without his complicity.
Did you not read what you yourself posted?
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Show me a single serious Holocaust scholar who defines what the Mufti did as being actually complicit in the Holocaust...
oberliner
(58,724 posts)That quote is from the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum (in the paragraph you posted above). Presumably that would constitute a serious Holocaust scholar.
Doesn't it mean the he collaborated with the Nazis willingly?
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)There's a big difference between being a mere collaborator and actually being complicit in the Holocaust. I think you're hoping that people don't know enough about the Holocaust anymore so that they will be willing to swallow a new version where the Mufti is retroactively spliced in as one of perpetrators of the Holocaust.
shira
(30,109 posts)Mahmoud Abbas still being a Holocaust Denier, and now the Mufti?
You know you can just acknowledge the obvious, and still hold to your overall general position.
Right?
The denial reeks of desperation. Defending the indefensible.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)This page was last modified on 23 October 2015, at 15:09.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Handschar_(1st_Croatian)
it seems history is being written as we speak
oberliner
(58,724 posts)If anything it supports my notion that Wikipedia is not a good place to turn for information on this topic.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)there by justifying acts of Israel from 1948 through to the present
Israeli
(4,132 posts)read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.682144
I'm still trying decide if Bibi is that stupid or that smart
TubbersUK
(1,439 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)The idea was to suggest that the hostility towards Jews in the region pre-dates the founding of Israel.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)that is fueling the conflict, well thanks for clarifying
shira
(30,109 posts)....pushes people into wanting to kill mass numbers of Jews, from babies to the elderly?
It's not even debatable that all this hostility against Jews predated 1948 and 1967.
Is it really THAT important to "justify" all terror acts as a response to occupation?
I mean, seriously...
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)the occupation has nothing to do with it
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Temple mount mumbly prayer...
Abbas is ineffective...
Abbas is responsible...
The Mufti (aka all Palestinians are bad) designed the Holocaust...
Bad Palestinian Muslim=terrorist...
Bad Israeli Jew=not terrorist...
"I'm a liberal, but I'll defend Netanyahu..."
"I'm a liberal, but I'll defend Bennet..."
"I'm a liberal, but I'll defend Shaked..."
Jews (aka illegal settlers) should have ROR in the West Bank...
Palestinians should not have ROR in Israel...
Pallywood...
The bigoted list goes on and on by the victimizers...as if they were the victims.
applegrove
(118,017 posts)It was a German tool. Nobody held them accountable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_and_Namaqua_Genocide
shira
(30,109 posts)The Mufti opposed all immigration of Jews into Palestine. The Muftis numerous letters appealing to various governmental authorities to prevent Jewish emigration to Palestine have been widely republished and cited as documentary evidence of his collaboration with Nazis and his participative support for their genocidal actions. For instance, Husseini intervened on 13 May 1943, before the meeting with Himmler when he was informed of the Holocaust,[196] with the German Foreign Office to block possible transfers of Jews from Bulgaria, Hungary and Romania to Palestine, after reports reached him that 4,000 Jewish children accompanied by 500 adults had managed to reach Palestine. He asked that the Foreign Minister "to do his utmost" to block all such proposals and this request was complied with.[197] According to Idith Zertal, none of the documents presented at Eichmann's trial prove that it was the Mufti's interference, in these 'acts of total evil,' that prevented the children's rescue.[198] In June 1943 the Mufti recommended to the Hungarian minister that it would be better to send Jews in Hungary to Concentration Camps in Poland rather than let them find asylum in Palestine. A year later, on 25 July 1944 he wrote to the Hungarian foreign minister to register his objection to the release of certificates for 900 Jewish children and 100 adults for transfer from Hungary, fearing they might end up in Palestine. He suggested that if such transfers of population were deemed necessary, then:
I ask your Excellency to permit me to draw your attention to the necessity of preventing the Jews from leaving your country for Palestine, and if there are reasons which make their removal necessary, it would be indispensable and infinitely preferable to send them to other countries where they would find themselves under active control, for example, in Poland, thus avoiding danger and preventing damage."[199][200]
Haj Amin al-Husseini meeting with Heinrich Himmler (1943).
Haj Amin al-Husseini and Nazi collaborator Mile Budak in occupied Sarajevo (1943).
Achcar quotes the Muftis memoirs about these efforts to influence the Axis powers to prevent emigration of Eastern European Jews to Palestine:
We combatted this enterprise by writing to Ribbentrop, Himmler, and Hitler, and, thereafter, the governments of Italy, Hungary, Rumania, Bulgaria, Turkey, and other countries. We succeeded in foiling this initiative, a circumstance that led the Jews to make terrible accusations against me, in which they held me accountable for the liquidation of four hundred thousand Jews who were unable to emigrate to Palestine in this period. They added that I should be tried as a war criminal in Nurenberg.[201]
In November, 1943 the Mufti said:
It is the duty of Muhammadans in general and Arabs in particular to drive all Jews from Arab and Muhammadan countries .Germany is also struggling against the common foe who oppressed Arabs and Muhammadans in their different countries. It has very clearly recognized the Jews for what they are and resolved to find a definitive solution [endgültige Lösung] for the Jewish danger that will eliminate the scourge that Jews represent in the world. .[183]
In September 1943, intense negotiations to rescue 500 Jewish children from the Arbe concentration camp collapsed due to the objection of al-Husseini who blocked the children's departure to Turkey because they would end up in Palestine.[202]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)They didn't exactly welcome Jewish refugees with open arms either...
shira
(30,109 posts)....their attitudes towards Jews, while the Palestinian leadership has not.
So it's not rocket science when linking all the crazy incitement and murder of civilians now to the same thing that happened before 1967, and before 1948.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)When it actually came to Jews fleeing for their lives, the Allies were remarkably reluctant to take them in.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)because that's what they do same reasons always, nothing in history changes that?