Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumWATCH: Jewish settlers await destruction of Bedouin village in Negev
http://972mag.com/watch-jewish-settlers-await-the-destruction-of-bedouin-village-in-negev/66859/Deep within Yatir Forest in the Negev (Naqab), on this side of the Green Line, there is a temporary settlement where 30 settler families are waiting. Waiting for the promised moment when the Bedouin village of Umm al-Hieran is destroyed; waiting for its roughly 500 residents to be forcibly displaced; and waiting for their exclusively-Jewish town of Hiran to be built in its place.
Over the last two and a half years that I have lived in Israel, Ive spent a fair amount of time learning the roads to villages that, according to official Israeli maps, do not exist. I know the names of historical villages that Israel calls illegal, and Ive spoken to countless Israeli citizens whom the state has labeled criminal trespassers for living on their ancestral lands. Im not unfamiliar with the alternate universe of the Negev (Naqab), and have even become accustomed to issuing a daily self-reminder to believe what I see. And yet, last week I found myself wandering about in a state of utter bewilderment.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Really should be a permalink at the top of the page.
GeoWilliam750
(2,519 posts)Which parts of the article are factually incorrect?
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Look, I don't even go to that particular link, but you can't automatically dismiss something just BECAUSE it comes from a story there.
It's not like it's "Der Sturmer" for God's sakes.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)then damn the rest of the article, and they are trying to be taken seriously.
The cherries are ripe for picking so early this year.
Then there are others who have nothing to say at all but have to say the same hollow thing over an over as if it has value.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Let's say there was a site that was devoted exclusively to posting articles and op-eds that present Palestinians in a negative light. Not only the Palestinian leadership, but also general incidents of bad behavior of Palestinian groups and individuals. All of the articles were accurate - nothing was made up - but that was the website's entire focus. And let's say about a half dozen of these articles were re-posted here on DU every single day. How would you feel about that?
shira
(30,109 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)And there are plenty of anti-Palestinian websites from which articles are posted here constantly-so it's not as if that's a hypothetical(other than, at times, the accuracy).
Where I would draw the line would be if the languages used about Palestinians was bigoted(as I draw the line about any explicitly anti-Jewish rhetoric, or about anyone that doesn't make the crucial distinction between "Israeli" and "Jewish" .
So there's my criteria.
shira
(30,109 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)I've never said anything to the contrary.
The issue should be the factual accuracy of the articles, not the source in and of itself.
People can say what they want about the source, but the source itself should generally not be the issue.
shira
(30,109 posts)...for portraying Palestinians as nazi-like, twirling their evil mustaches, etc.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Fair enough?
And my issue was with the contents of those articles, not their source.
The articles being posted from 972, while they are pro-Palestinian, aren't hate speech and they aren't inaccurate. The fact that they are from 972 doesn't automatically discredit them. That site isn't calling for Israel to be made Judenrein, or for anything terrible to be done to Jewish people. Nor is it hostile to the various forms of religious Judaism or the various cultures contained in the Jewish world, in and outside of Israel.
The test should the the content of the articles.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)You pretty much just torpedoed your entire case with that line.
shira
(30,109 posts)...from such a website being posted here daily?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Last edited Sun Mar 3, 2013, 08:43 PM - Edit history (1)
then there is really no position you or Oberliner really have except to complain.
You can always put the poster on ignore.
On the flipside I have seen several posts that are posted that shouldn't be posted within I/P since they have no relevance to I/P.
I usually ignore them.
shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)In America, I'm not sure where you are from, there's a saying: "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to say it."
Some times what is offensive is also very true.
Seeing how what Oberliner wrote pretty much sums up that what 972 writes is accurate then why are you having this conversation with me?
delrem
(9,688 posts)they often don't like the specifics broadcast, or the unjust cause named for what it is.
In this case the video in question gave equal time to both vulture-settlers and Bedouin victims.
A sign says that the temp settlement the vultures are waiting in "was made possible through the generosity of JNF-USA and its commitment to *Blueprint Negev*".
But there's a POV that says that all this is right and just. Although the JNF is dedicated to buying and developing land strictly for Jewish settlement, I'm sure it cares deeply about the welfare of the Bedouin, as deeply as it does for the Arab population of what was Palestine. In fact it says just that on its *Blueprint Negev* website, and displays a picture of smiling Bedouin people to confirm it. How could such a noble cause be involved in anything unjust? I'm sure whatever it does and wherever its projects take it, it is fully supported by the Israeli Justice Ministry. So to call it 'apartheid' has to be totally wrong, doesn't it?
shira
(30,109 posts)The problem with the video isn't that it broadcasts the ugly, non-mainstream Israeli views of an extremist settler. Israel has its fair share of lunatics. It's that the +972 site from which it comes from deliberately caters to a non-Israeli audience, being that the 972'ers have given up on trying to convince Israelis who tend to laugh them out of the room.
+972 isn't a media outlet as much as it's an advocacy organization which desires outside pressure on Israel. And not particularly for a 2-state solution (that would be noble). The outsiders who see that settler are mostly far rightwingers for a 1-state Hamastan and this video (their fix for the day wrt jews behaving badly) helps confirm in their tiny minds that all Israel is racist just like the settler, Israel has no right to exist, Hitler was right, and "We are all Hamas". Nothing to be proud of...
delrem
(9,688 posts)You and oberliner want to deflect the discussion to one about the 972 site. That is a strategy intended to abort discussions that you don't want to aired in DU I/P.
You do that again here, in reply to me, even though it contributes nothing and it repeats what you've said repeatedly already. You have no interest in an honest discussion about this OP.
Your own contribution to this or any thread, so far as I can see, is to incite intense feelings of hate. You don't contribute sense.
Although oberliner sometimes contributes sense, his responses to every post linking 972 is regular as a metronome and could be delivered by a bot. These responses are pure harassment and have continued for weeks now. Although apparently such harassment is acceptable on DU, at least in the I/P group, it isn't helpful.
There is much to discuss about the situation of the Bedouin in 2013 Israel, and to be productive any such discussion must be based on fact. The video in this OP references fact. If it references one-sided fact which colors the situation unfairly, I and I'm sure others will be happy to be informed, and to discuss all this information in terms of the Bedouin situation, the desires of the Israeli Jews in their temporary quarters waiting for the Bedouin's to be removed so they can move in permanently, and in terms of larger scale Israeli and JNF policy for the Negev, including the relation that exists between Israeli state land policy and organizations like JNF which is formalized in certain legislation.
Response to delrem (Reply #24)
Post removed
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Shame on you.
972 posts articles critical of Israel and you go on a tirade about 972 readers as bots: programed to see Nazi policy.
Be careful of the plunge off of the deep end, Shira, you may never come back up for air if you go too deep.
aquart
(69,014 posts)But the "ancestral lands" argument is hysterically funny in the MidEast.
Violet_Crumble
(35,954 posts)Israel's been destroying Bedouin homes for years now and its so wrong...
delrem
(9,688 posts)which is founded on their relationship to the surrounding lands.
An essential step in a process intended to rob them of their independence, the better to herd them according as plans drawn up by Israeli social engineers.
Violet_Crumble
(35,954 posts)Even though they're Israelis, they're ones that are discriminated against and treated in a way that just wouldn't be done to the majority of Israelis. I've seen threads at DU2 where there's been attempts to justify and support Israel's treatment of the Bedouin, and it's pretty pathetic to watch. I might go and see if I can find a few of those old threads later today..
oberliner
(58,724 posts)But go ahead and research "DU2 threads" - for what purpose is anyone's guess.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Violet_Crumble
(35,954 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)What says Ravenclaw?
Violet_Crumble
(35,954 posts)This is an old article from 2006, but it shows how long Israel have been trying to 'persuade' the Bedouin to laeve for...
Adalah: The Water Tribunal Supported the Government's Policy of Seeking to Move Arab Bedouin Citizens of Israel from their Land in the Naqab by Upholding Decisions of the Water Commissioner not to Supply them with Drinking Water
On 18 November 2006, Adalah submitted an appeal to the Supreme Court of Israel against a ruling delivered by the Haifa District Court (sitting as a Water Tribunal) on 13 September 2006 that upheld prior decisions of the Water Commissioner not to provide water to hundreds of Palestinian Arab Bedouin families living in unrecognized villages in the Naqab (Negev). The Water Tribunal based its decision on the political issue of the "illegal" status of the unrecognized villages.
Adalah argued in the appeal that the Water Commissioner's decisions to deny the basic right to water to hundreds of families were based on improper and arbitrary considerations. First and foremost, the aim of these decisions is to support the government's policy of seeking to relocate Arab Bedouin from their land to government-planned towns, by refusing to provide them with basic services such as access to clean drinking water. Adalah asked the Supreme Court to overturn the Water Tribunal decision, and to order the provision of water access points via the existing main water distribution network to the affected families.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x157141