Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumIsrael introduces 'Palestinian only' bus lines, following complaints from Jewish settlers
Israel introduces 'Palestinian only' bus lines, following complaints from Jewish settlers
Starting on Monday, certain buses running from the West Bank into central Israel will have separate lines for Jews and Arabs.
The Afikim bus company will begin operating Palestinian-only bus lines from the checkpoints to Gush Dan to prevent Palestinians from boarding buses with Jewish passengers. Palestinians are not allowed to enter settlements, and instead board buses from several bus stops on the Trans-Samaria highway.
Last November, Haaretz reported that the Transportation Ministry was looking into such a plan due to pressure from the late mayor of Ariel, Ron Nahman, and the head of the Karnei Shomron Local Council. They said residents had complained that Palestinians on their buses were a security risk.
The buses will begin operating Monday morning at the Eyal crossing to take the Palestinians to work in Israel. Transportation Ministry officials are not officially calling them segregated buses, but rather bus lines intended to relieve the distress of the Palestinian workers. Ynet has reported that fliers are being distributed to Palestinian workers notifying them of the coming changes.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israel-introduces-palestinian-only-bus-lines-following-complaints-from-jewish-settlers-1.506869
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Solindsey
(115 posts)It's absolutely outrageous and more and more people are getting f**king sick of this. Palestinian only buses. What's next? I dread to ask.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)If Israel does it there is a good reason and we should support them, otherwise we hate them all and want to have another holocaust.
Don't be labeled a hater, just nod and say 'good job sirs, please continue'.
Solindsey
(115 posts)Crazy.
I just don't get it. You don't think alienating people like this won't lead to ill will and more problems? Painting ALL arabs as terrorists that you can't be anywhere near? They already have "Palestinian only roads" the settlers throw garbage on. Yet they want the world to side with them and not speak out for the Palestinians? How dumb are they? How can they scream like a bitch about anti-semitism and still support the racist settlers and this right wing joke of a government in Israel? How can you be against discrimination of Jews yet be totally ok with discriminating against another group of people?
shira
(30,109 posts)
2naSalit
(86,509 posts)You're absolutely correct there.
I see the apologists are already out in force, there must be some kind of alarm system that monitors all posts for any mention of the, um, you know who... heaven forbid someone should say something someone else doesn't like. (sometimes aka the actual truth)
Tempest
(14,591 posts)And Israel wonders why they are considered a racist country which practices apartheid.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)The Transportation Ministry issued the following statement: "The new lines are not separate lines for Palestinians but rather two designated lines meant to improve the services offered to Palestinian workers who enter Israel through Eyal Crossing.
Tempest
(14,591 posts)He's parsing.
There's no distinction between "separate" and "designated" in this context.
delrem
(9,688 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Tempest
(14,591 posts)They will be constantly stopped, people interrogated and some people will disappear from the buses.
Or worse, attacked by the Israel settlers.
This is a license to harass, nothing more.
sabbat hunter
(6,828 posts)the headline says it is Israel that is introducing the buses, but the article says it is the bus line is the one behind this.
It is a privately owned company.
Either way it is wrong to do, but should be clarified if this is something the government is doing or a private business is doing.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)So if Israeli law allows it then it is to some extent implicitly responsible for condoning the behavior.
shira
(30,109 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Jewish bus riders have complained that the buses were overcrowded and said they were concerned about security risks, Ynet reported. Jewish and Palestinian riders have scuffled verbally and physically on the buses, according to reports.
The buses will run from stops near Palestinian communities into Israel. Still, the Palestinians legally cannot be refused permission to board the regular bus lines, an unnamed Afikim bus driver told Ynet. They could, however, be removed from the buses at Israeli checkpoints, which would be both inconvenient and humiliating.
“The new lines will replace irregular pirate lines that charge very high prices from Palestinian passengers,” the Transportation Ministry said in a statement. “The new lines will reduce congestion and will benefit Israelis and Palestinians alike.
“The Transportation Ministry is forbidden from preventing any passenger from boarding any line of public transportation, nor do we know of a directive to that effect. Instituting these lines was done with the knowledge and complete agreement of the Palestinians.”
http://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-company-to-run-separate-buses-for-palestinians/
Try again.
Onto the next defamation.
And round we go....
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Evidently Palestinians may board the buses but will be removed later if they do by some other government entity than the Transportation Ministry.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)However, drivers interviewed by the same source confessed that de facto segregation is inevitable. "We are not allowed to refuse service and we will not order anyone to get off the bus, but from what we were told, starting next week, there will be checks at the checkpoint, and Palestinians will be asked to board their own buses," said a driver working for Afikim, a company with a government tender to serve West Bank settlements.
http://rt.com/news/israel-buses-west-bank-740/
shira
(30,109 posts)2. Arab residents of Judea and Shomron, are, as a rule (because of security concerns) , unbale to work outside of Judea and Shomron although many work in Barkan and in other places where Afikim goes. Perhaps some Arabs have permits to work in the center of the country, and they also use the routes.
3. Since the routes were not meant for the Arabs they do not serve them very well and any changes will be beneficial to those Arabs wanting to work in the center of the country. At any rate, Arabs will still be able to use any Afikim lines and sit anywhere on the bus where there is an available seat.
Knowledge is power.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)I know what segregation looks like from personal experience, as you said, knowledge is power.
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Mon Mar 4, 2013, 06:22 PM - Edit history (1)
You can see the same picture here from 2011...
http://mondoweiss.net/2011/11/follow-the-freedom-rides.html
The ISM fully supports "resistance" to occupation (terror) and is for a 1-state solution that would result in a genuinely racist and apartheid PLO or Hamas entity ruling after full RoR. They are for BDS that rules out any cooperation and tolerance between Israelis and Palestinians.
Anyone remembering segregation and racism should keep that in mind.
At least Haaretz buried this nugget within the story so that's progress:
So what turns out to be good news (more buses) is portrayed as bad news. Note that there will be no change in the operation of any buses. No Palestinians will be turned away from the current buses and routes they use. They will just have more choice, and less crowded buses.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)Afikim is one of the transport businesses operated by Rock Group Holdings, information which took me about five seconds to find out from their website. Rock Group Holdings in turn is owned by a publicly listed company.
http://www.afikim-t.co.il/home/
The article is talking about Arabs who have work permits to work inside Israel. And yes, such work permits exist.
As if you'd know.
shira
(30,109 posts)...by 3 different transportation companies. I can't find who the 3 are but maybe you'll have better luck.
And let's be honest, the OP and these recent claims of segregation are beyond retarded. Imagine as many here like to do that KKK white supremacists represent Israel and Palestinians are the blacks during the Jim Crow segregation era. Great analogy, right?
Now here's where it gets stupid as all hell....
So blacks are getting their very own bus line. But blacks can still ride on mixed busses with whites. So while blacks can ride on any bus they want, whites can only ride on mixed busses. The whites are the ones excluded, not the blacks. So to get back to I/P, if anyone is discriminated against, it's the Israelis and not the Palestinians b/c only the Israelis are discriminated against.
This is how stupid the claims are.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)Where does it say that?
Ah, good. We are getting somewhere.
No they can't.
From Ynet:-
shira
(30,109 posts)From Reuters...
"Furthermore, the Ministry of Transport is not authorized to prevent any passenger from using public transport services."
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)You can't produce a link to the "wiki" that you mentioned? I'm not terribly surprised.
The bus lines will not be officially segregated. They will be unofficially segregated.
Ultimately, the bus drivers will ask any Palestinian who gets on the general bus lines to get off. The Ministry says it has no intention to remove Arabs from any bus, but it certainly won't be making sure that they're not kicked off any buses either.
So to recap:-
1. There will be new bus lines. There is nothing categorically different about these lines in an official sense, but nevertheless you accept that these new bus lines are intended for Palestinians.
2. These bus lines were created in response to complaints from settlers who did not wish to travel on the same bus lines as Palestinians.
3. While technically, an Arab can attempt to board the other bus lines, and there is nothing legal preventing him from doing so, the bus driver will ask him to leave.
Ergo, ipso facto and therefore, the bus lines will be segregated.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)This is Jim Crow pure and simple and repulsive at best.
shira
(30,109 posts)Afikim (Hebrew: אפיקים ; lit. routes) is an Israeli bus company that operates on routes connecting the Gush Dan and Sharon plain regions with the western Samaria region of the West Bank. The company was founded in 2008 and is co-owned by three other transportation companies. It began operating on 1 September 2009 and now operates over thirty routes.
Some more things that you guys aren't considering...
1. There's no point for settler buses driving out of the way to Arab village A to then go to Arab Village B....
2. Regular services are still open to everyone, and by law. The new buses are additional services. Nothing evil there, especially being that Israel is giving out more work permits. More work permits = more bus service. This isn't rocket science.
3. The bus company is being criticized for not advertising to non-Arab/Palestinians. The reason why is because no one advertises to an audience (settlers, Israelis) who won't use their service (buses going from one Arab village to another).
4. Also, Palestinians aren't Israeli citizens. I can't cross the border into Canada w/o going through a checkpoint first. Neither can Palestinians, especially since Intifada 2 and many bus explosions.
ETA:
5. Lastly, you do know that Palestinians have their own buses, right? Go figure! Turns out, they were over-charging and the Israeli buses are cheaper. It's no wonder the Palestinians actually prefer the Israeli ones over the Palestinian buses and that they want this service. Not that you'd have a problem with the PA's blood-squeezing, pirate driving services...
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)at least link to the article you're lifting your claims from:-
http://www.timesofisrael.com/palestinian-buses-draw-peace-camp-ire-but-get-nod-from-riders/
Those aren't buses (the minivans). Those are servees (or service taxis).
There are Arab bus (real bus) companies that are allowed to run three lines between Bethlehem, East Jerusalem, and Ramallah. One of those companies is al-Qurasa. The prices are cheap, but the buses cannot leave until full because they do not receive a subsidy from the state, unlike the settler buses. Those bus companies would happily operate a service from Qaqaliyah, and the Arabs would be happy to ride them, but Israel won't let them.
As for the settler buses:-
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/03/04/buses-only-the-latest-in-israel-s-segretated-public-transport.html
JoDog
(1,353 posts)also is supposed to make sure non-Orthodox women are not harassed by haredi men and forced to sit in the backs of public buses. But it fails on that one, too.
I think that this system is not intended to be a segregated one. It is my belief that these new lines were introduced to provide more direct service for Palestinians that uses routes that will not cross checkpoints. Therefore, people would not be pulled from the buses and forced to show work permits. So they would have the choice of a cheaper, faster, and more convenient service; stay on the current bus routes; or remain with the more expensive private van lines.
Whether that is how it is going to work in reality remains to be seen.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Do you believe that we can read the next sentence or following paragraph?
shira
(30,109 posts)...of the Jewish state.
You have no rational argument showing the new buses and routes are in any way a form of racism.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Shira just keeps shooting herself in the foot by trying to appear reasonable.
shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Go ahead, Shira, keep shooting yourself in the foot. I can't imagine much is left of you below the ankle with the way you do it.
shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Now you call them Palestinians when you realized you slipped up?
Goodnight, Shira, just goodnight.
shira
(30,109 posts)The point is that's not Jim Crow, apartheid, racism, etc... in any way, shape, or form.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)You are hopeless, but at least you make me laugh.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)No more than anyone using any identity related terminology anyway. It's not like using the term Palestinian is in any way different.
Any criticism you put upon shira for using the "label" Israeli Arab applies equally to yourself for using any number of equivalent terms. Palestinian, Zionist, Ashkenazi, mizrahim, etc. they're all labels.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)And they're the ones who are being segregated by this latest move with the buses.
Or is she talking about Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem? Because her labelling East Jerusalem a 'Jewish settlement' and trying to label Palestinians there as settlers is a particularly ridiculous contortion, imo...
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about Arab citizens of Israel. Btw vi, I notice you used the term israeliarab. Are you admitting to being a horrible racist along with the rest of us?
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)Looks like someone was trying to throw a few random bits of SomethingElse into the mix to try to defend what the bus company is trying to do....
And while I use the term Israeli Arab a lot, I don't tend to run around trying to justify discrimination against any Palestinian, nor do the completely ridiciculous and ignorant labelling of ones that do reside in East Jerusalem as being settlers living in settlements.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)What a nice way of classifying racism. Good for you.
Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #115)
Post removed
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)is obvious that what the article that the OP pointed out is accurate.
All I see is posts covering for it and others covering for the posters that do it. Smoke and mirrors, song and dance, dodge left right and center.
And you have the temerity to call me a troll? Rubbish.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Using the label Palestinian is problematic bc it usually refers to a persons citizenship, not their ethnic-nationality.
There's absolutely nothing bigoted or discriminatory about the term Israeli-Arab. It is the most commonly accepted term to use.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)...for those who have no problem using terms of discrimination.
Just as any number of racial terms that were used to humiliate African Americans, in the old south...and north for that matter, to attempt to destroy any form of dignity they may have had using the term Arab certainly is equivalent of such a vile attitude. I'm sure it is easier for some to call Palestinians "Arabs" since it cleanses the said individual of excepting them as Palestinians and heirs to the State of an eventual Palestine.
Racism is racism, but what is worse is when people, here at DU as well, embrace it and try to sell it as something normal.
Not that long ago I had a conversation with a northerner who moved to the south and redefined themself with that region of the country: fake southern accent and all. I had no problem with that, but when they told me that using the N-word was alright, and it was just a word, I only had one thing to say.
"So if it is alright to use 'N' in a conversation, since it is alright by your standards, then is it equally valid to use 'Dumb Southern White Trash' as a string of words?"
They shut up after that. I hope I gave them something to think about.
I would also hope the next time you write something that you think ahead as to how your words will be viewed.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)But you yourself just used the term African American, the precise equivalent of Israeli Arab.
I'm sorry, but I've been studying this conflict for over a decade, and this is the first time anyone has ever insinuated that the term might in any way be racist. Because its not. It's the accepted term for Israelis of Arab ethnicity. Not for racists. For everyone. The fact that you don't know this says that you know fuck all about this culture and conflict. I've spent considerable time with members of this population. It is how they refer to themselves. It is the term the Washington post and NYT uses. It is the term used my Arab members of the Knesset.
You have no idea what you're talking about. I hope you'll take the time to learn about such matters before making such vile accusations in the future. I'm sorry that your friends are such disgusting racists. Perhaps that is why you assume it of other people. That you surround yourself with such people often enough that you're unable to tell who is racist and who is not.
Or perhaps you're right and the NYT is full of crazed racists.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)And you've studied his conflict for over a decade?
Stop, you're killing me!
Yes, I'm sure that you have exclusively studied this 'conflict' for so long as to win an award for repeating it so often.
Perhaps a medal is in order?
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)So after referring to me as a racist you immediately turned around and alerted on my post whining that you're being called a racist?
Hahahaha. If you'll read the comments you'll see what the jury thinks of your behavior.
Now unless you have anything of substance to add, aside from being a hypocritical, name-calling crybaby, I believe I'm done with you. Or are you going to alert on this too. Maybe you should call your mother and cry to her?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Please, put me on ignore if you care.
Nothing of what you have written, especially how you are a self-described expert
, changes the horrid principles of apartheid and Jim Crow in Israel.
If you would like, I'll post a few links to 972 for you in your honor.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)I understand that your sad original argument left you pwned so hard that you've abandoned it entirely, but I never referred to myself as an expert. I merely intimated that after 10 years of reading about this conflict if the term "IsraeliArab" were really so offensive then I MIGHT have come across more resistance to using it SOMEWHERE along the way. But hey, maybe you're right. Maybe the NYT, Arab members of the Knesset and others all hate Arabs while you alone are their sole defender. Because that sounds perfectly reasonable.
The fact that you are reduced to making fun of the amount of time that I've been interested in and reading about this issue speaks to the inanity of your argument. I am reminded of when Rick Santorum argued against higher education because it may cause some individuals to question their previously held beliefs. I am very sorry if the length of time that I've spent learning about this conflict left me with any understandings that conflict with what you inherently "know" to be true, without the benefit of having read as much or traveled there as often as I have. (Or perhaps even bothered to have traveled there at all?)
And I certainly said nothing in defense of either Jim Crow or apartheid. Insinuating that I have is probably why one of the jury members referred to you as an "ass."
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)And as to putting words in other people's mouths...
As to arguments the original post stands, and it is about Jim Crow. Live with it.
I'm sorry, but I've been studying this conflict for over a decade...
Which one is it? Expert or no?
And when you were traveling and learning which bus did you ride on?
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Do you honestly think that the term "Arab" is the equivalent of the term "n---r?"
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)When words are used to either degrade, dehumanize or belittle a group then that word is unjust.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Oh no, I'm ALL over this. Really, you find the term "Arab" to be belittling? And you think I'm the racist one. Wow. I'm actually shocked at how unbelievably tone deaf you are.
Fell free to alert on me for calling you that btw. I can almost see the tears streaming down your outraged, pouting face.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Project much?
Reread what I wrote to you above. Perhaps it is taking longer to sink in than I thought it would... for one that learns so much.
shira
(30,109 posts)....has no business passing themselves off as someone knowledgable about I/P, or even racism/bigotry in general.
How embarassing for you.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Thanks for the attempted slander. Better luck next time.
shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Thanks for the attempted slander. Better luck next time.
ohiosmith
(24,262 posts)AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service
At Tue Mar 5, 2013, 09:24 AM an alert was sent on the following post:
Excuse me
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=33957
REASON FOR ALERT:
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)
ALERTER'S COMMENTS:
I'm being called out as a racist.
"I'm sorry that your friends are such disgusting racists. Perhaps that is why you assume it of other people. That you surround yourself with such people often enough that you're unable to tell who is racist and who is not. "
I don't 'surround' myself with racists or any other hate group.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Mar 5, 2013, 09:34 AM, and the Jury voted 0-6 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No! You are not being called out as a racist! Read post! Leave it!
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: That was a little riff on your story about your neo-South friend who wanted to use the "n" word.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: poster is right in use of the term Israeli Arab, alerter is being such an ass as to deserve whatever he or she gets
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Please, please, please tell me you're joking. Because if you aren't, and you've actually studied this for over a decade, that's appalling.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)person in the room without having to offer up any evidence.
Everybody is an expert; especially when they say they are.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)As I said, it's the term used by Israeli Arabs themselves, by major news media and so on. While I'm sure you might be able to find a blog post that criticizes the term, just as you might over use of the term African-American, I haven't ever seen any kind of backlash insinuating that use of that terminology is in any way considered offensive or racist. Have you?
Bear in mind that the person you are defending spent half of a thread elsewhere explaining why all of the Jewish organizations that found someone's comment referring to "The Jews" to be offensive, (because he's far more qualified to tell Jewish people what is and what is not anti-semitic), were wrong. He's made it quite clear that he believes that anyone leveling the charge on anti-semitism is merely part of an organized Jewish hate machine shilling for Israel, while any criticism regarding non-Jews made BY Jews is automatically racist.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)You're saying that is alright to call Palestinians "Arabs", but it is not all right to say this...
http://972mag.com/the-israel-lobby-at-its-intimidating-worst-in-britain/66931/
Having visited Auschwitz twice – once with my family and once with local schools – I am saddened that the Jews, who suffered unbelievable levels of persecution during the Holocaust, could within a few years of liberation from the death camps be inflicting atrocities on Palestinians in the new State of Israel and continue to do so on a daily basis in the West Bank and Gaza.
So which is it? Some can call Palestinians whatever they like, but pounce on a British MP because he puts a "the" before Jews? Part of the argument on that thread was that the MP needs to use more appropriate terms. Right? But some can call Palestinians Arabs instead?
And yes, you are definitely an expert...in something.
When you find out what it is let us all in on it.
He's made it quite clear that he believes that anyone leveling the charge on anti-semitism is merely part of an organized Jewish hate machine shilling for Israel, while any criticism regarding non-Jews made BY Jews is automatically racist.
What you have written is a fabrication cut from whole cloth. You know it as well as I.
shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Must be really hard for you.
shira
(30,109 posts)So what do you wish to call these Israeli citizens?
Palestinian or Arab Israeli?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)you already have you answer. Perhaps Israel should reconsider how it labels minorities as well as which bus lines they should take so as not to inconvenience the non-Palestinians.
shira
(30,109 posts)Since you prefer 'Palestinians', how shall we distinguish between the Palestinians who are Israeli citizens and those who are not? Wanna call them Israeli Palestinians?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)were they waiting for the Israelis to arrive to free them from having an identity all their own?
shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)So? Then it is the state of Israel that places that label on them.
Before they were Palestinians, and after they blossomed into Israeli Arabs. Right? Is that what you are telling me? DU?
shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)That's how they describe themselves and for some reason you don't like it.
And you're blaming Israelis in general for it.
Unreal.
Next thing you know, Israelis will be held responsible here for starving Israeli-Arabs by putting the holes in bagels.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts) shira
(30,109 posts)Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)Seeing as those settlers are so allergic to Palestinians, my suggestion to them is they get off their arses and move back to Israel where there won't be so many of them....
shira
(30,109 posts)Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)Anyone who supports the cause of defending segregation earns nothing but complete contempt from me...
shira
(30,109 posts)...those buses. It is also illegal for the bus to deny a Palestinian with the proper ID card a ride.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)"Anyone who supports the cause of defending segregation earns nothing but complete contempt from me."
And me too.
shira
(30,109 posts)Palestinians with entry permits are in no way hindered from entering any buses anywhere.
So where's this evidence of segregation?
What am I missing?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)The next sentence, which you thoughtfully left out, reads:
But Haaretz has in the past reported incidents when Palestinians were taken off of buses, and witnesses at checkpoints say that such incidents are ongoing.
On edit: Why didn't you add this?
"Police officer Advanced Staff Sergeant Major Shai Zecharia stops the bus at the bus stop. Soldiers order all the Palestinians off the bus. The first thing they do is collect all their identity cards as they get off. One by one, the Palestinians are told to go away from the bus stop and walk to the Azzun Atma checkpoint, which is about 2.5 kilometers away from the Shaar Shomron interchange. All of them responded with restraint and sadness, at most asking why. Here and there they received answers such as, ‘You’re not allowed on Highway 5’ and ‘You’re not allowed on public transportation.’ Advanced Staff Sergeant Major Zecharia gave some vital information to one of the older Palestinians who had arrived there, telling him: You should ride in special vans, not on Israeli buses.”
So much for your defense of the defenseless.
shira
(30,109 posts)That claim is bullshit.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)The Issues are one in the same.
shira
(30,109 posts)You certainly can't make a reasonable case for it given counter-evidence proving it's a farce.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)What other case has to be made?
You really are shameless and pretty transparent.
shira
(30,109 posts)Lame.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)My job is to show DU the truth, and make you look foolish.
From the article.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israel-introduces-palestinian-only-bus-lines-following-complaints-from-jewish-settlers-1.506869
This doesn't happen in Canada going to the US or vice versa. If there were incidents that happened like this then there would be an uproar by both sides. You failed yet again.
Speaking of buses you and your ill logic have just missed the last one.
Buh-bye.
shira
(30,109 posts)...Israel has had issues allowing Palestinians to freely cross the border. Mahmoud Abbas and his PLO are still inciting, rewarding, and honoring suicide bombers and the like.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)you have decided to go off in another direction to distract?
I just proved you were wrong. Get used to it.
Your argument has collapsed under the strain of supporting so many fake claims and outrages.
Jim Crow is alive in Israel, Shira, and you haven't done it any help with your arguments. The only thing you have done is cement your position as a supporter of such practices.
shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts) 
shira
(30,109 posts)The reason why I recommend this is because they're far more liberal than our own here in the USA.
By miles!
They'd never allow apartheid, Jim Crow, segregation, etc.
Think about it, or not.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)I truly haven't laughed so hard in a month. Thank you, though.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)I don't care what light and fluffy term for it you want to use to make it more palatable, but what's been described in the OP is very much segregation...
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Ir seems to me that a lot of Southerners in the USA said the same thing before, during and after the voting rights act.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)How this can be justified by a so-called modern democracy?
Israeli
(4,141 posts)Have you heard of Machsom watch ?
Here is a link if not :
http://www.machsomwatch.org/en
From the same Haaretz article :
Ofra Yeshua-Lyth is a member of Machsom Watch, a female advocacy group monitoring West Bank checkpoints. She says that recently, Bus 286 from Tel Aviv to Samaria arrived at a checkpoint filled with Palestinian workers. She filed the following report:
"Police officer Advanced Staff Sergeant Major Shai Zecharia stops the bus at the bus stop. Soldiers order all the Palestinians off the bus. The first thing they do is collect all their identity cards as they get off. One by one, the Palestinians are told to go away from the bus stop and walk to the Azzun Atma checkpoint, which is about 2.5 kilometers away from the Shaar Shomron interchange. All of them responded with restraint and sadness, at most asking why. Here and there they received answers such as, ‘You’re not allowed on Highway 5’ and ‘You’re not allowed on public transportation.’ Advanced Staff Sergeant Major Zecharia gave some vital information to one of the older Palestinians who had arrived there, telling him: You should ride in special vans, not on Israeli buses.”
Have you ever visited the West Bank or been at any of the checkpoints to see for yourself ?
If not you should , its a real eye opener .
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Read one of her books if you want a real eye opener.
shira
(30,109 posts)What am I missing here?
And why, when after reading the excerpt above, do people insist that there's still bus segregation?
Israeli
(4,141 posts)I have known Ofra Yeshua-Lyth for many years oberliner
I take it you are referring to her first book ' A State of Mind '
what did you not like about it ?
Would also like to know why shira does not trust Machsom Watch , would you like a tour of the checkpoints shira , I would happily arrange one for you .
Israeli
(4,141 posts)it was greatly appreciated
So far I gather you dont like 972 or Larry Derfner or Ofra Yeshua-Lyth
anyone else you would like to add to that list ?
I like to know with whom I am trying to communicate , I'm a Left wing Israeli
whats your nationality ?
and if you could vote in our elections which party would you vote for ?
BTW I dont expect a reply , not from you or from shira
those of you in the diaspora that try to defend the occupation have an ostrich mentality when it comes to facts ...therefore the truth is best ignored .
shira
(30,109 posts)I'm American and if I voted in Israel it would probably be for Labor.
So tell me, are you against checkpoints altogether? If so, and the bombings start again, then what should Israel do?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I think she is interesting and people should read her book to get a sense of where she is coming from.
I don't like Larry Derfner at all. I think he is a blowhard and a fool - and I was particularly disgusted by his continued defense of Greta Berlin in the face of evidence contradicting what he was claiming.
I don't mind 972mag - I just don't think every single article from there should be posted here as its own thread. It's a bit of overkill.
I'm American - Democrat. If I were an Israeli, I'd probably vote for Labor or Livni's new party. I also like Meretz.
shira
(30,109 posts)bowens43
(16,064 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)So where's the segregation and racism?
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)I thought the same story from a RW pro-Israeli source worth mentioning as there appears to be an attempt in this thread to deny that this isn't segregation...
Palestinians-only bus lines open in West Bank
Transport Ministry says move will "relieve overcrowded buses," improving service; rights group calls move "simply racism," predicts checkpoint police will shun Palestinians from regular bus lines.
rael launched two Palestinians-only bus lines in the West Bank on Monday, a step an Israeli rights group described as racist and which the Transport Ministry called an improvement in service.
"Creating separate bus lines for Israeli Jews and Palestinians is a revolting plan," Jessica Montell, director of the B'Tselem rights group, said on Army Radio. "This is simply racism. Such a plan cannot be justified with claims of security needs or overcrowding."
The Transport Ministry said the two new lines would "improve public transport services for Palestinian workers entering Israel" and replace pirate buses charging them "exorbitant prices".
"The Ministry of Transport has not issued any instruction or prohibition that prevents Palestinian workers from traveling on public transport in Israel nor in Judea and Samaria," it said, referring to the West Bank.
"Furthermore, the Ministry of Transport is not authorized to prevent any passenger from using public transport services."
Rights groups, however, voiced concern that Israeli police at checkpoints in the West Bank would remove Palestinian passengers from regular bus lines and order them to use the new ones.
http://www.jpost.com/NationalNews/Article.aspx?id=305264
oberliner
(58,724 posts)It's a Reuters article.
shira
(30,109 posts)"Furthermore, the Ministry of Transport is not authorized to prevent any passenger from using public transport services."
That's not segregation.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)I thought I'd already said in this thread that the Israeli government has a responsibility to put a stop to this, not that the Israeli government was carrying it out.
on edit: As I suspected, I did say that clearly and you even replied to the post.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=33761
TomClash
(11,344 posts)What's next? Yellow badges? Volkisch?
If there was a Palestinian Rosa Parks she would probably be shot.
shira
(30,109 posts)Well?
TomClash
(11,344 posts)bowens43
(16,064 posts)Iggo
(47,547 posts) 
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Early this morning, Palestinians from the West Bank with permits to work inside the state of Israel crammed onto bus lines specially created for “Palestinians only” — instead of using the same public buses used by Israelis. The Israeli Transportation Ministry launched the new bus lines today, for travel from the Eyal checkpoint to Tel Aviv and Kfar Saba and back to the checkpoint, after settlers complained about Palestinians using the same buses as Israelis on their way to and from work inside Israel.
Such measures may be shocking to those unaware that in East Jerusalem and the West Bank, separate-but-unequal bus lines already exist, as detailed by Mya Guarnieri. But, as with the many forms of de facto discrimination in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories, these buses are not legally segregated. So predictably, Israel’s transportation minister insists that, even with the new bus lines, “Palestinians entering Israel will able to ride on every public transportation line, including existing lines in Judea and Samaria [Israeli terms for the West Bank occupied Palestinian territories]“. Additional new lines for Palestinians only are also planned.
Legally, however, there is no way to stop Palestinians from boarding “regular” lines: “We are not allowed to refuse service and we will not order anyone to get off the bus, but from what we were told, starting next week, there will be checks at the checkpoint, and Palestinians will be asked to board their own buses,” a driver with Afikim – the company that holds the routes franchise for the area – told Ynet.
http://972mag.com/photos-israels-new-palestinian-only-segregated-bus-lines/67068/
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Last edited Mon Mar 4, 2013, 08:48 PM - Edit history (1)
Perhaps not against a small Palestinian population but against the greater population in general.
So why does the USA defend this crap?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)just some company and well the Israeli government allows companies to do their own business, it's just free enterprise at work
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)falls to shit and you are charged more for less.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Attempt at bus segregation appalling
Published:
27 Nov 2012
Following disclosure that the Ministry of Transport is considering separate bus lines for Palestinians in the West Bank, Israeli human rights group B’Tselem has stated that the ministry, like all other governmental bodies, may not provide services on a discriminatory basis. There is not, nor can there possibly be, legal justification for separating Palestinians from Israelis. Services provided by the state must be available on an equal basis to all and any who require them.
In response to the planned segregation, B’Tselem executive director Jessica Montell said, “The attempt at bus segregation is appalling, and the current arguments about ‘security needs’ and ‘overcrowding’ must not be allowed to camouflage the blatant racism of the demand to remove Palestinians from buses.”
The West Bank is occupied territory which is home to over two and a half million Palestinians. In view of the great lengths that Israel has gone to in building sophisticated systems to separate settlers from Palestinians – thereby enabling settlers to ignore the presence of the Palestinians who live there – public transportation on West Bank roads offers settlers an exceedingly rare glimpse of the presence of the Palestinians.
http://www.btselem.org/press_releases/20121127_separation_in_buses
shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)time to write them shira. Tell them to get it straightened right now.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)The separate bus lines for Palestinians that went into operation on Monday recall racial segregation in the United States and are bringing Israel closer to apartheid.
By Aeyal Gross | Mar.04, 2013 | 3:15 PM
In 1896 the United States Supreme Court handed down one of its most shameful decisions in the case of Plessy v. Ferguson, rejecting the argument that the segregation between whites and blacks on trains in the state of Louisiana violated the principle of equality.
"We consider the underlying fallacy of the plaintiff's argument,” the court wrote in words that today are considered to be one of the most embarrassing moments in U.S. judicial history, “to consist in the assumption that the enforced separation of the two races stamps the colored race with a badge of inferiority. If this be so, it is not by reason of anything found in the act, but solely because the colored race chooses to put that construction upon it."
The U.S. Supreme Court did not reject the notion that "separate but equal" can indeed be equal until more than half a century later. In the landmark case of Brown v. Board of Education, in 1954, it ruled that racial segregation in public schools violated the principle of equality before the law.
snip* In Israel, in contrast, we have returned through the time tunnel to 1896: Palestinians are being directed off public buses in the West Bank, and on Monday, the Transportation Ministry introduced separate bus lines for Palestinians, to keep Palestinians who are traveling to work in Israel from riding the same bus lines as Jews.
The ministry, in a statement reminiscent of the U.S. Supreme Court circa 1896, says the lines are aimed at relieving the distress of the Palestinian workers.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/on-the-bus-to-israeli-apartheid.premium-1.507171
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)It's already there.
Israeli
(4,141 posts)and its been here for many years ,
dont take my word for it read all you can on the subject from Shulamit Aloni and from her son Udi Aloni.
Now back to the discussion , and more from Ofra Yeshua-Lyth :
"You`re not allowed to use public transportation at all"
By Ofra Lyth
1 March 2013
I arrived at 4 PM at the bus terminal (near what is called the “Shomron Gate Junction”). Until five it looked like nothing was going to happen. Blessed boredom. Travellers get on and get off, including some who look like Palestinians. A military vehicle behind the bus honked with pointless violence and suddenly activated a siren, surely that was nothing more than the simple boorishness of the soldiers who are the lords of the land.
At five o’clock sharp the action begins: a policeman, First Sergeant Shai Zecharia, portentiously boards bus 286, which is stopped at the station. Soldiers order all the Palestinians to get off. Right away they collect their ID cards upon their exit from the bus. That way they can’t go anywhere until they get permission. Nearly thirty workers, ages 30-50, obediently file out. The soldier/officer roars: “Udrub!” (Move!) And then: “Sit on your butts! On your butts!” They are then marched to the terminal fence and made to stand along it in a line, then to sit on the cold ground and wait. The soldiers check the green IDs (Arabic: hawwiye) and demand to see their “tasrih” (work permits). A lucky few get their IDs back and board another bus – complaining only about having to pay twice for the same trip. But our forces immediately block this channel: one by one the workers are told to leave the terminal and walk to the Azoun-Atme checkpoint, 2.5 kilometres from the Shomron Gate junction. By now it’s cold; the sun has set. Most of them got up at three in the morning for the trip to work. Their homes are only a few kilometres from nearby Ariel. All they ask is to be allowed to ride the bus for another two or three stops. They paid for the trip. And by the way, a “tasrih” costs 8,000 shekels. You have to work hard to cover that sum before you earn your first shekel.
The soldiers nabbed four workers who had dared to work without a “tasrih”. The short one venomously says, “They can spend some time in the Yoav fortress.” Then the next consignment arrives, about another 25 workers. The armed and heroic little guy is soon shoving them with both hands. The procedure is repeated: “Udrub”, on your butts, hawiyye, tasrih. Now move it to Azoun-Atme. Within half an hour about eighty men have been subjected to this humiliation by a few armed soldiers and one policeman. They all responded with restraint and dismay, at most asking the obvious questions and now and then getting enlightening replies, such as:
“You’re not allowed to be on Highway 5.” At long last: official confirmation that there are apartheid highways in Israel, despite all the denials.
“You’re not allowed to use public transportation at all.”
First Sergeant Zecharia provided the following crucial information to one of the older Palestinians: It’s better to travel in the special vans and not in Israeli buses. Palestinians claim that there has been an unwritten commercial alliance between some in the security forces and the Bedouins who operate the vans, which cost five times as much as the buses for short trips. For a trip of a few minutes, each one of them pays one or two hour’s wages.
I should note that the First Sergeant answered my questions as the law requires when I asked his name and rank, but he immediately declared that my questions were “causing agitation” and that “pretty soon” I too would find myself spending a few hours in the nearby police station.
On the way back, via the Ayalon Highway, my heart goes out to the thousands of Israelis who are delayed on the way home in Thursday evening traffic jams.
Questions and thoughts:
How many hundreds of Palestinians gone through this permanent institutionalized harassment this evening, at the end of a work week during which they cleaned, built, plastered and paved our Homeland?
What is the idea behind this harassment? How is it that workers represent no “security risk” in Tel Aviv and Rishon LeZion from morning to evening, but their presence on a bus on the way home is a matter that requires the armed intervention of the soldiers of the “Israel Defence Force”?
Should not those who are constantly warning us that the Third Intifada will break out any moment have an interest in obedient and industrious workers being allowed to get home in peace? (Incidentally, I have heard this observation from the workers, who may be poor but are by no means stupid)
And furthermore: when a woman is told to “sit in the back” of a bus full of Haredim, Israeli society responds with anger and revulsion and we demand that the instigators of this obscurantist discrimination be stopped. But Palestinian workers are forbidden to travel in “our” buses – even in the back, and standing. And that is quite all right legally – unless something is very, very wrong with the law.
How fitting it is this evening to excoriate the unknown judge who beat his unfortunate children, and the judicial system that did not deal with him severely. Because, as everybody knows, civilization, progress, human rights, the rights of the child and equality before the law are our guiding principles.
Happy Apartheid Week to *all* of you!
Original Hebrew: https://www.facebook.com/dorit.lego/posts/10151456362587370
shira
(30,109 posts)Where's the Supreme Court?
I don't even hear or read of former Justices like Aharon Barak calling Israel an apartheid state.
So how is it possible Israel's most Liberal Zionists on the Supreme Court cannot see what you believe you're seeing?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)We have some real winners on it right now. Ever hear of Citizens united?
Are Israeli judges any less blind than others when bigotry is involved?
shira
(30,109 posts)...is far and away more liberal/progressive than the USSC. It's not even close.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)....have any clue about racism/bigotry. Not even its uber-Liberal Supreme Court, which makes our USSC look rightwing in comparison.
You have the same attitude WRT all major Jewish organizations devoted to fighting antisemitism. You know better than them too.
There's something really wrong with that.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)The USSC made some wonderful blunders in its history, Shira.
We have some real winners on it right now. Ever hear of Citizens united?
Are Israeli judges any less blind than others when bigotry is involved?
I know that is easy for you to miss; seeing how honest a question it is.
shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Since you missed it again...
The USSC made some wonderful blunders in its history, Shira.
We have some real winners on it right now. Ever hear of Citizens united?
Are Israeli judges any less blind than others when bigotry is involved?
I know that is easy for you to miss; seeing how honest a question it is.
shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)The ministry, in a statement reminiscent of the U.S. Supreme Court circa 1896, says the lines are aimed at relieving the distress of the Palestinian workers.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/on-the-bus-to-israeli-apartheid.premium-1.507171
B'Tselem, Haartez, they should hire you, I think.
shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)A 'Palestinians-only' bus line is launched in Israel after settlers complain Palestinians are a 'security risk'.
Last Modified: 04 Mar 2013 14:37
Israel has launched two Palestinians-only bus lines in the occupied West Bank, a step an Israeli rights group described as racist and which the Transport Ministry called an improvement in service.
The left-wing Haaretz daily reported that the ministry opened the lines on Monday, to be used by Palestinian labourers travelling between the West Bank and Israel, after Jewish settlers complained that Palestinians on mixed buses were a security risk.
"Creating separate bus lines for Israeli Jews and Palestinians is a revolting plan," Jessica Montell, director of the B'Tselem rights group, said on Army Radio. "This is simply racism. Such a plan cannot be justified with claims of security needs or overcrowding."
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/03/20133414315434321.html
shira
(30,109 posts)....of what the delegitimization campaign is all about.
Never before in history has there been such a concerted, systematic, and vicious campaign to discredit and demonize Israel, especially seeking to undermine its support in the Jewish community.
Without comprehending this fact, the massive attacks from academia, mass media, groups, and even in mainstream political and intellectual debate cannot be understood. We aren’t dealing with lots of mistakes but with the mass production of hate speech.
http://rubinreports.blogspot.co.il/2013/02/not-mistake-misunderstanding-or-well.html
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Tell them their documentation is wrong, their conclusions are wrong...you and Rubin.
Your posts become increasingly more sad by the day...I pity you.
shira
(30,109 posts)You can't justify your position so you rely on anti-Israel group-think.
What "they" say must be true because....well, just because.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)is B'Tselem is not an anti-Israel group..there is no group think. They're respected due to their
diligence..you accusing anyone of group think about the Israeli government is beyond ironic.
Sad posts, that's all you ever add here.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)The next sentence, which you thoughtfully left out, reads:
Why didn't you add this as well?
"Police officer Advanced Staff Sergeant Major Shai Zecharia stops the bus at the bus stop. Soldiers order all the Palestinians off the bus. The first thing they do is collect all their identity cards as they get off. One by one, the Palestinians are told to go away from the bus stop and walk to the Azzun Atma checkpoint, which is about 2.5 kilometers away from the Shaar Shomron interchange. All of them responded with restraint and sadness, at most asking why. Here and there they received answers such as, ‘You’re not allowed on Highway 5’ and ‘You’re not allowed on public transportation.’ Advanced Staff Sergeant Major Zecharia gave some vital information to one of the older Palestinians who had arrived there, telling him: You should ride in special vans, not on Israeli buses.”
Apartheid.
shira
(30,109 posts)Also, Palestinians are not Israeli citizens.
Try passing over the border into Canada and see whether you get stopped or not and asked for ID. Maybe you can cry racism and discrimination next time you try.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)to pretend that it is.
Just stop it. Shame on you.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts) shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Tue Aug 27, 2013, 06:44 PM - Edit history (2)
...is Jim Crow.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/32702595/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa#.UTVWa6VAtvc
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)this argument months ago.
Try to stick with the OP. Don't pretend to create a new direction. You lost, and lost big.
I'm not really sure how one can pretend to keep up the same pro-apartheid/Jim Crow argument day after day, then when they lose that one try to go back to an argument that they lost months ago, and be able to look themselves in the mirror with any trace of self respect.
shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)I don't need to deal with another one on DU.
Goodnight.
shira
(30,109 posts)...of Israeli Arabs from moving into the settlements. If that's what they choose, then by law they can do it just like any Jewish citizen of Israel.
So speaking of Jim Crow, what's an Israeli Jewish racist for apartheid supposed to do to live in a racially pure environment? The state isn't helping such a person out.
For that matter, onto the busses. If the biggest Jewish racists of all time wish to ride on busses without Arabs on them, how can they hope to achieve this?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Jewish bus riders have complained that the buses were overcrowded and said they were concerned about security risks, Ynet reported. Jewish and Palestinian riders have scuffled verbally and physically on the buses, according to reports.
The buses will run from stops near Palestinian communities into Israel. Still, the Palestinians legally cannot be refused permission to board the regular bus lines, an unnamed Afikim bus driver told Ynet. >>>>They could, however, be removed from the buses at Israeli checkpoints, which would be both inconvenient and humiliating.<<<<
“The new lines will replace irregular pirate lines that charge very high prices from Palestinian passengers,” the Transportation Ministry said in a statement. “The new lines will reduce congestion and will benefit Israelis and Palestinians alike.
“The Transportation Ministry is forbidden from preventing any passenger from boarding any line of public transportation, nor do we know of a directive to that effect. Instituting these lines was done with the knowledge and complete agreement of the Palestinians.”
Here are two clips from your so proud post.
1) Palestinians cannot enter Jewish settlements.
2) They could, however, be removed from the buses at Israeli checkpoints, which would be both inconvenient and humiliating.
And you expect DUers to believe your next deflection that everything is fine and dandy? That Palestinians can move right in next to the colonialists that are making life hell for them every day? By law the Palestinians are allowed to ride the bus, and apparently can be taken right off and humiliated. And you expect all those Palestinians are just waiting to line up and be humiliated day after day; attempting to live in a place when they are already treated like dirt?
shira
(30,109 posts)First of all, they're not really Jewish settlements when there's a mix of both Israeli Jews and Arabs living in them. Second, there's a difference between Israeli Arabs and Palestinians who are not Israeli citizens.
Palestinians who are not Israeli citizens do not have the same rights to go into settlements whenever they wish, not as Israeli Arabs do. Israeli Arabs are Israelis who can go in and out of settlements all they wish. So Israelis are permitted in settlements and can go cross border w/o inspection (both Jews and Arabs) but Palestinians cannot b/c they're of another nationality.
As to buses, non-Israeli Palestinians - those who are not citizens of Israel - cannot enter Israeli territory without the proper permits. Whether they get into buses with Israeli settlers or their own buses. Like we Americans, we cannot cross the border into Canada w/o being stopped. Neither can they due to the last Intifada, Hamas cells in the W.Bank, continuing non-stop hate incitement, rewarding of martyrs, cheerleading suicide attacks, etc... that still go on in the W.Bank. 24/7/365.
Israel has to do something so that the following does not happen:
Now have you learned anything before we move on?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Sigh. We went over this. Here it is again.
While one may have to stop at border crossings for both the US and Canada there is not a wholesale policy of harassment and intimidation for either population.
So I'm not sure why you keep on trying to sell DU that.
First of all, they're not really Jewish settlements...
That's great. I never called them Jewish settlements. You did when you posted that piece (see post #11 everybody), and now you are going to try and backtrack out of it.
Sweet.
So in order for a Palestinian to live in one of these "Israeli" communities they would have to give up their identity and become an Arab?
When you post "Like we Americans" did you ever consider that "We Americans" are made up of many nationalities? And some identify themselves with their cultural past. Italian American, German American, Vietnamese American? The state doesn't exclude those titles, but it actually celebrates them.
So when you try to reassure me that these Palestinians are really Israeli Arabs it makes me wonder how much does Israel really want to be considered a democracy of the present day?
Separate but equal doesn't work so well in a democracy, Shira.
shira
(30,109 posts)1. You talk of harassment and humiliation at the checkpoints. We have US citizens saying that about our very own TSA. It's wrong when it's done in both countries, isn't it? But that doesn't imply racism, especially when Israeli border patrols at checkpoints include soldiers who are not Jewish (they're Israeli Palestinians checking Palestinian-Palestinians).
2. So now that you know the difference b/w Israeli Palestinians and Palestinian-Palestinians, explain how it's racist when 100's of thousands of Israeli Palestinians have every right to move into settlements if they wish? I'm going to ask this until you answer or take back your silly accusations.
3. What do you say about Israeli-Palestinians with Israeli ID cards who are on those settler buses, and like the Jews they're not stopped and checked at the border? Why isn't Israel humiliating and harassing them if Israel is racist and apartheid? Have you learned yet?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)If the TSA were only singling out Native Americans for harassment then you would have an argument, and as to your point there are others non-Jewish soldiers taking part in the humiliation does not make it any less wrong. I'm sure that they were just following orders.
We've already covered this topic. I'm sure that the Palestinians have every right to ride the buses as well, but they will be humiliated and removed on a whim. With that kind of track record it's not a very convincing argument that would make a Palestinian ever want to move into an Israeli Settlement.
What do I say about taking your word for anything? Not much.
shira
(30,109 posts)...is that Palestinian-Palestinians are sometimes mistreated at checkpoints. Israel should not just single out Palestinian-Palestinians but they should also be patting down and harassing Jewish settlers and Israeli-Palestinians at the border to be fair.
Yes?
You then imply that Palestinian-Israelis wouldn't want to live in settlements because.....? Because the Israeli-Jews are nasty to the Israeli-Palestinians? This doesn't seem to stop Jewish Israelis from moving into Arab neighborhoods throughout Israel. So I don't know what you're arguing here.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Foot shot 1.
No, the Israelis shouldn't be patting down and harassing anybody. Do you really not understand that?
Foot shot 2.
No, just call them Palestinians, Shira, and stop pretending that they are all so welcome. Anybody that can read can see how they have been treated.
shira
(30,109 posts)You want Israel to stop Israeli citizens at the border just as they would Palestinian non-citizens. You think that would be fair. Do you believe Israeli citizens are just as much a threat to security as non-citizens crossing over (maybe Hamas)? Why should Israel stop their own citizens at checkpoints? Is it not obvious Israel has checkpoints and border security for people who are non-citizens trying to get into the country? I think just about every other country on the planet does the same thing.
And based on your answer to the last question, you have no point to make there either. You keep confusing Palestinian-Israelis with Palestinian-Palestinians. You seem to believe Palestinian-Palestinians would not feel welcome living in settlements. The problem is that they're not Israeli citizens. They can't live in settlements. However, Palestinian-Israelis are citizens and they can live in settlements all they want. Are you now arguing that Palestinian-Israeli citizens wouldn't feel welcome living with fellow Israelis in the settlements?
Just trying to understand why you feel 110% confident apartheid, Jim Crow segregation is going on.
shira
(30,109 posts)You've dropped it altogether in order to focus on a cherry-picked line about checkpoint procedures.
Palestinians would have to go through checkpoints even if they never took a bus into Israel. You're taking exception with border procedures while conceding with your silence (embarassment) that the bus story is bull crap.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)1) No. I have not given up on any bus claims. Israel apparently does Jim Crow, and some run cover for it exceptionally well.
2) No. I didn't drop it, but you continually attempt to drive the narrative away from the truth. Poor you.
3) Palestinians don't have to be humiliated or treated like second class baggage, and supporters of IDF tactics shouldn't lie or distract about what is really going on in apartheid land.
You missed the bus again, Shira.
shira
(30,109 posts)...and Jim Crow and segregation. You're unable to make a case that the bus policy is racist and that's why you're not bringing it up anymore.
How embarassing for you.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)1) No. I have not given up on any bus claims. Israel apparently does Jim Crow, and some run cover for it exceptionally well.
2) No. I didn't drop it, but you continually attempt to drive the narrative away from the truth. Poor you.
3) Palestinians don't have to be humiliated or treated like second class baggage, and supporters of IDF tactics shouldn't lie or distract about what is really going on in apartheid land.
You missed the bus again, again and again Shira.
shira
(30,109 posts)Give it your best shot.
And don't get Palestinian-Palestinians confused with Israeli-Palestinians, mmmkay?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)I'm not going to keep going over the same ground.
Have a nice day, and give my regards to the apartheid state.
shira
(30,109 posts)You can't even produce one single argument to justify your position.
All you do now is just claim it's racism, segregation, Jim Crow, apartheid....
And you probably figure b/c you read it somewhere it just must be true.
========
Middle-schoolers are better defending their positions than you are.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts) shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)
randr
(12,409 posts)
CountAllVotes
(20,868 posts)It lives in Israel. 
& recommend.
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)ISRAELI SETTLEMENTS SYMBOLISE THE ACUTE LACK OF JUSTICE EXPERIENCED BY THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE
GENEVA, 31 JANUARY 2013
– The International Fact-Finding Mission on Israel Settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territory today published its findings on the implications Israeli settlements have upon the human rights of the Palestinian people.
The report states that a multitude of the human rights of the Palestinians are violated in various forms and ways due to the existence of the settlements.
These violations are all interrelated, forming part of an overall pattern of breaches that are characterised principally by the denial of the right to self-determination and systemic discrimination against the Palestinian people which occur on a daily basis.
Since 1967, Israeli governments have openly led, directly participated in, and had full control of the planning, construction, development, consolidation and encouragement of settlements, the report states.
“In compliance with Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention Israel must cease all settlement activities without preconditions,” said Ms. Christine Chanet, chair of the Mission from France.
The report states that settlements are established and developed for the exclusive benefit of Israeli Jews. The settlements are maintained and advanced through a system of total segregation between the settlers and the rest of the population living in the Occupied Palestinian Territory. This system of segregation is supported and facilitated by strict military and law enforcement control to the detriment of the rights of the Palestinian population.
“We are today calling on the government of Israel to ensure full accountability for all violations, put an end to the policy of impunity and to ensure justice for all victims,” said Ms. Asma Jahangir, member of the Mission from Pakistan.
The report states that Israel is committing serious breaches of its obligations under the right to self-determination and under humanitarian law. The report also concludes that the Rome Statute establishes the International Criminal Court's jurisdiction over the transfer of populations in the Occupied Palestinian Territory.
“The magnitude of violations relating to Israel’s policies of dispossessions, evictions, demolitions and displacements from land shows the widespread nature of these breaches of human rights. The motivation behind violence and intimidation against the Palestinians and their properties is to drive the local populations away from their lands, allowing the settlements to expand,” said Ms. Unity Dow, member of the Mission from Botswana.
The report states that private entities have also enabled, facilitated and profited from the construction of the settlements – both directly and indirectly.
NOTES TO EDITORS:
• The full report is available at: http://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/HRC/RegularSessions/Session19/Pages/IsraeliSettlementsInTheOPT.aspx
/... http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/HRBodies/HRCouncil/RegularSession/Session19/FFM/PR_FFM_31012013_en.pdf
