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shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
Tue Jun 3, 2014, 01:21 AM Jun 2014

Update to shooting deaths at Beitunia (must read)

An Israeli guy has written a blog about the Beitunia shootings that appears to be very well informed.

You'll have to use google translate, but it seems reasonably clear that:-

1) The rubber bullet adapters used by the Israeli soldiers are capable of firing live ammunition

2) When firing rubber bullets, the rifle should not cycle (ie automatically eject spent ammo). The fact that it does tends to support the view that he was firing live ammunition

http://eishton.wordpress.com/2014/05/29/nakba_day_bitunya_shooting_analysis/

118 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Update to shooting deaths at Beitunia (must read) (Original Post) shaayecanaan Jun 2014 OP
Thank you for posting when I first read the claims of rubber bullet adapted guns I wondered azurnoir Jun 2014 #1
Same thoughts here, but perhaps R. Daneel Olivaw Jun 2014 #2
i tried to ask the same question here on DU shaayecanaan Jun 2014 #3
yep I/P seems only to be allowed here and in LBN azurnoir Jun 2014 #4
To be honest, I/P isnt much of a flame war these days... shaayecanaan Jun 2014 #5
There's not a trace of blood in the extended video of these incidents. shira Jun 2014 #6
Shot with full metal jacket ammunition shaayecanaan Jun 2014 #7
What do u make of the 2nd video; The Hopper? Pure Pallywood fiction or something else? shira Jun 2014 #12
Havent watched it to be honest... shaayecanaan Jun 2014 #14
All u had to do is watch a 1-minute vid. Looks like a hoax just 3 minutes before.... shira Jun 2014 #18
Now that the truth is coming out do you want to change your tune or R. Daneel Olivaw Nov 2014 #104
You should really stop with the "Pallywood" slurs R. Daneel Olivaw Nov 2014 #114
Nobody seems to ever answer your posts ,LOL King_David Nov 2014 #116
You have. So much for you observations. R. Daneel Olivaw Nov 2014 #118
so what's the 'real' story they aren't dead never existed what? azurnoir Jun 2014 #8
We really don't know yet, do we? Fozzledick Jun 2014 #10
I'd say thats absolute bullshit... shaayecanaan Jun 2014 #11
There's definite evidence of fraud in the al Dura case. Like the boy... shira Jun 2014 #13
I see quite a bit of blood on his shirt shaayecanaan Jun 2014 #15
Is it on his shirt or on his right upper leg? Check these out.... shira Jun 2014 #19
Tell that to the French courts LOL azurnoir Jun 2014 #27
Waiting for the facts to come out before jumping to a prejudiced conclusion is "absolute bullshit"? Fozzledick Jun 2014 #16
No, your post is absolute bullshit shaayecanaan Jun 2014 #17
No, that's been my consistant observation over time Fozzledick Jun 2014 #20
Then maybe you'd like to back it up? shaayecanaan Jun 2014 #57
Aw gee, your concern is so touching! Fozzledick Jun 2014 #70
Here's CNN stepping into the Pallywood doo-doo.... shira Jun 2014 #21
lol (dis)honestreporting strikes again and poorly at that azurnoir Jun 2014 #25
What you guys really hate about Honest Reporting etc King_David Jun 2014 #28
ah ya sure that's the ticket azurnoir Jun 2014 #29
What's really humorous is the Hate toward King_David Jun 2014 #36
Interesting comment it really says more than I think was intended :) azurnoir Jun 2014 #39
I forgot to add King_David Jun 2014 #44
anything else you'd like to add you seem on a roll as I said much more than intended :) azurnoir Jun 2014 #47
I intended and stand by every word King_David Jun 2014 #50
except no one has defended anything off the sort have they? but if it feels good say it I guess azurnoir Jun 2014 #53
Don't u guys support a future Palestine with either Fatah & or Hamas in charge.... shira Jun 2014 #61
No one has supported a state with Hamas in charge and Hamas is not in the unity government our POTUS azurnoir Jun 2014 #62
Hamas has been in charge of Gaza since 2007 but u guys never criticize.... shira Jun 2014 #64
lol again with the proving a negative azurnoir Jun 2014 #67
Hamas isn't small dice to the women, xtians & gays they oppress. shira Jun 2014 #68
in the grand scheme of things Hamas is small dice your so called concern azurnoir Jun 2014 #69
Yes, Hamas is small dice to the pro-Palestinian contingent. LOL! shira Jun 2014 #71
You should really get on the phone and tell those two dead youths that they aren't dead. R. Daneel Olivaw Jun 2014 #9
How do u explain this video just 2-3 minutes before the incident? shira Jun 2014 #22
Then where are these kids? why has IDF not detained them surely they can be located azurnoir Jun 2014 #23
First, do we agree that The Hopper video is obvious Pallywood... shira Jun 2014 #30
Obviously we do not agree a silent video captioned from a site azurnoir Jun 2014 #40
Here's extended video from B'tselem showing the exact same thing.... shira Jun 2014 #42
you do realize all of this was posted here weeks ago right? as proof of the authenticity azurnoir Jun 2014 #45
So u have no explanation whatsoever for the Pallywood going on just 2 minutes... shira Jun 2014 #49
I do not believe there was anything questionable going on azurnoir Jun 2014 #52
Can u at least see why supporters of Israel would question the video? n/t shira Jun 2014 #59
Sure shaayecanaan Jun 2014 #72
What's so far-fetched? B'tselem extended video footage shows.... shira Jun 2014 #75
Okay I watched it... shaayecanaan Jun 2014 #78
More denial. The boy in the cape hopping was obviously faking it. n/t shira Jun 2014 #85
Eleven million. R. Daneel Olivaw Jun 2014 #89
I explain it like this... R. Daneel Olivaw Jun 2014 #24
So you don't see any funny business or Pallywood in that 1 minute "Hopper" clip? n/t shira Jun 2014 #31
I stand by my statements while the R. Daneel Olivaw Jun 2014 #33
So that's a no. How fascinating. n/t shira Jun 2014 #34
What's actually fascinating in an evil sort of way R. Daneel Olivaw Jun 2014 #38
that struck you too? Up until today no one here questioned the whether the deaths of 2 Palestinian azurnoir Jun 2014 #41
No one is denying anyone died. The questions relate to the video footage & the bullet found. n/t shira Jun 2014 #43
then what is the purpose of posting video's that cast doubt on the deaths of these kids azurnoir Jun 2014 #54
Because fabricating blood libels that incite hatred vs Jews is disgusting and vile. n/t shira Jun 2014 #55
The only way it is a "blood libel' is if the kids are still alive azurnoir Jun 2014 #56
When there's proof Israel killed the kids in the video with actual bullets, lemme know. shira Jun 2014 #60
so then it seems you're admitting to what you just denied n/t azurnoir Jun 2014 #81
Can you imagine if somebody claimed that the murders in Brussels were fabricated? R. Daneel Olivaw Jun 2014 #73
uproar? ppr is far more likely azurnoir Jun 2014 #74
You guys are too funny. Video footage from B'tselem shows you're the ones in denial.... shira Jun 2014 #77
not even CAMERA whose site has the same B'tselem vid makes ludicrous claims that we're seeing here azurnoir Jun 2014 #80
There's a history of Pallywood incitement to hatred vs the Jewish state & its Jews.... shira Jun 2014 #76
Well, its not quite an apt comparison shaayecanaan Jun 2014 #79
That line of attack is fairly lazy today. R. Daneel Olivaw Jun 2014 #65
Your the only one who actually engages that 1 in conversation King_David Jun 2014 #48
Maybe my lying eyes are deceiving me. What do u make of The Hopper video? shira Jun 2014 #51
I'm sorry dave, but that is just patently false. R. Daneel Olivaw Jun 2014 #91
It's pretty sad that some want R. Daneel Olivaw Jun 2014 #26
It's sad when atrocities are fabricated in order to incite hatred against the Jewish state. n/t shira Jun 2014 #35
You have not proven that the Nakba killings R. Daneel Olivaw Jun 2014 #37
Video from that day shows funny business going on, no blood, bullet was intact & not deformed.... shira Jun 2014 #46
Your whole song and dance is based upon discrediting them since this thread was about R. Daneel Olivaw Jun 2014 #63
Nah, it's about countering fabricated slander meant to defame, demonize & incite hatred.... shira Jun 2014 #66
What you are now writing is pretty offensive. R. Daneel Olivaw Jun 2014 #82
She's not even convinced that Palestinians are human... shaayecanaan Jun 2014 #83
Post removed Post removed Jun 2014 #86
I would not have directed that reference to anyone else other than you... shaayecanaan Jun 2014 #88
Right. Reasonable people. R. Daneel Olivaw Jun 2014 #90
In relation to the blood issue... shaayecanaan Jun 2014 #92
can u give us some background rafeh1 Jun 2014 #32
Sure shaayecanaan Jun 2014 #58
Images of Nadeem shaayecanaan Jun 2014 #84
Horrific. n/t Jefferson23 Jun 2014 #87
Mostly intended for our friend shaayecanaan Jun 2014 #93
Elder of Ziyon: dead Palestinians were shot in the ambulance shaayecanaan Jun 2014 #94
The anonymous blog, brought here as evidence on more than a few occassions. Jefferson23 Jun 2014 #95
Not sure that their audience would be worth suing... shaayecanaan Jun 2014 #96
oh FFS what next? azurnoir Jun 2014 #97
Border cop arrested for Nakba Day killing, debunking IDF tales Jefferson23 Nov 2014 #98
Well I'll be shaayecanaan Nov 2014 #99
Yea, well..they've had lots of practice at bullshit. Jefferson23 Nov 2014 #100
And look, a whole thread of a person denying they were ever killed Scootaloo Nov 2014 #102
Always, yes. n/t Jefferson23 Nov 2014 #103
For the record let us note that shaayecanaan Nov 2014 #105
I've just read this thread for the first time .... Israeli Nov 2014 #106
quibbling over 1 or 2 cases MFM008 Nov 2014 #101
This one seems where the subsequent events started n/t azurnoir Nov 2014 #107
Father of 'Nakba Day' shooting victim praises border guard's arrest Israeli Nov 2014 #108
amazing shaayecanaan Nov 2014 #109
A truly must read thread indeed n/t azurnoir Nov 2014 #110
elder doesnt seem too happy shaayecanaan Nov 2014 #111
Nope and his commentors even less so azurnoir Nov 2014 #112
particularly this guy shaayecanaan Nov 2014 #113
Officer accused of killing Palestinian indicted for manslaughter, maintains innocence Jefferson23 Nov 2014 #115
Border Policeman indicted for killing Palestinian teen at protest Jefferson23 Nov 2014 #117

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
1. Thank you for posting when I first read the claims of rubber bullet adapted guns I wondered
Tue Jun 3, 2014, 10:36 AM
Jun 2014

if that adaption prevented the firing of live ammo, I guess it doesn't

graphic from the article

?w=640&h=529

 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
2. Same thoughts here, but perhaps
Tue Jun 3, 2014, 12:01 PM
Jun 2014

i should wait for others to weigh in on this and their clubbing experiences first.

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
3. i tried to ask the same question here on DU
Tue Jun 3, 2014, 05:31 PM
Jun 2014
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172147026

but didnt get very far. Luckily there is so much infantile mollycoddling on this website, or people might actually have a productive discussion from time to time.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
4. yep I/P seems only to be allowed here and in LBN
Tue Jun 3, 2014, 05:54 PM
Jun 2014

I wonder though if it would have flown without the video or any I/P reference

however there is nothing in the RKBA SoP about I/P

Statement of Purpose

Discuss gun politics, gun control laws, the Second Amendment, the use of firearms for self-defense, and the use of firearms to commit crime and violence.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=about&forum=1172

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
5. To be honest, I/P isnt much of a flame war these days...
Tue Jun 3, 2014, 10:33 PM
Jun 2014

compared to the gender battles and so forth.

Anyway.

He mentions at the end of the replies that occasionally, a rifle can cycle due to the pressure generated by the rubber bullet. Apparently they are going to go out to a range and see whether this is a realistic prospect.

The bloke in green (not the killer) with a rifle trained on the Palestinians was apparently just a reporter from Israel Army Radio. He wasnt authorised to fire on the Palestinians although he did carry a weapon for self-defence (presumably loaded with live ammo). This wasnt the weapon he was pointing at the Palestinians (one presumes) because that rifle had a rubber bullet adapter attached).

The magazine used to fire blanks is shorter (as appears in the video) and has a plastic lip that serves as a safety feature, which prevents live rounds from being accidentally loaded. However, the lip can be knocked off with a screwdriver to allow the weapon to fire live ammunition.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
6. There's not a trace of blood in the extended video of these incidents.
Sun Jun 8, 2014, 06:36 PM
Jun 2014


Also, the bullet allegedly found in the backpack of one of the youths should've become deformed once it hit its target.

Last, there's this Pallywood footage from just a bit earlier:







shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
7. Shot with full metal jacket ammunition
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 12:26 AM
Jun 2014

at reasonably short range (80m). The bullet won't fragment or necessarily even tumble at that range as long as it passes through soft tissue, which is what is indicated in the autopsies.

You dont necessarily see a lot of blood immediately with gunshot wounds, particularly with FMJ. Of course, the victims bled quite copiously after that:-

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
12. What do u make of the 2nd video; The Hopper? Pure Pallywood fiction or something else?
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 05:56 AM
Jun 2014

According to the cameras, that fake acting stunt happened just minutes before the 1st incident.

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
14. Havent watched it to be honest...
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 06:43 AM
Jun 2014

Ive been around wrong enough to know how these things go:-

1) Dismiss Palestinian eyewitness testimony about shootings out of hand

2) There's video? Well, it must have been faked.

3) It wasn't? Well it must have been selectively edited.

4) They've released the whole video? Ah, um, LOOK OVER THERE!!!

5) NO REALLY!! LOOK BEHIND YOU!!!

6) Hamas Hamas Hamas blood libel Hamas Hamas Hamas

7) How many people were killed in Syria? Huh? And why are you concentrating on these two Palestinians? Thats singling out Israel don't you know....

8) Claim that Israel couldnt have killed the Palestinians because their rifles wouldnt fire live ammo (false), or because they didnt have a vantage point (false) or because there was no blood (false)

9) Claim that the Palestinians were never shot and never died and that their funerals were faked, although they were open casket funerals and by golly, they must be very good at lying very still for a very long time...

10) Claim that the Palestinians were killed in an elaborate conspiracy scheme whereby they were both shot dead by the ambulance driver en route to the hospital

11) No, really: http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com.au/2014/05/nadim-nawarah-was-shot-in-leg-by-rubber.html

12) Dismiss any finding of fact by any tribunal or court as biased, as well as any Israeli admission of guilt, or any testimony by Israeli soldiers themselves (eg Breaking the Silence)

13) Hope and pray that youve muddied the waters enough for causal observers, at least until the next dead Palestinian comes along. Rinse and repeat.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
18. All u had to do is watch a 1-minute vid. Looks like a hoax just 3 minutes before....
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 09:18 AM
Jun 2014

...the incident. All caught on the very same camera. Instead, you write up a 10 minute rant rather than watch a simple 1 minute video.

I'd just like to see someone like yourself acknowledging some funny business going on, that's all.

 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
104. Now that the truth is coming out do you want to change your tune or
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 10:28 PM
Nov 2014

double down on gross disrespect and denial.
 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
114. You should really stop with the "Pallywood" slurs
Sun Nov 16, 2014, 10:39 AM
Nov 2014

Now do you want to retract you earlier bigoted comments?

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
8. so what's the 'real' story they aren't dead never existed what?
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 12:48 AM
Jun 2014

were the bodies dug up from a grave yard- are they realistic looking mannequins what-if memory serves you at different times spouted all of the above in the case of Mohammad al Dura depending on what the latest conspiracy theory on that case was - until Karsenty lost his case

Fozzledick

(3,859 posts)
10. We really don't know yet, do we?
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 02:08 AM
Jun 2014

Whenever Palestinian propagandists have made an outrageous accusation like this in the past, it has always eventually proved to be somewhere between a gross misrepresentation and an outright fraud.

You may prefer jumping to your favorite conclusion, but I'll wait until the truth comes out. It may take some time, but sooner or later it always does.

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
11. I'd say thats absolute bullshit...
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 03:46 AM
Jun 2014

Mohammed al-Dura is the example usually trotted out by the hasbarados, but:-

(a) there's no evidence that the Palestinians conducted any fraud. Most balanced accounts of the incident say simply that he was killed "in crossfire" there being no definitive indication one way or another whether it was Israeli or Palestinian gunfire that killed him

(b) the IDF admitted responsibility for killing him, so the fact that they were alleged to have done so is hardly surprising in the circumstances.

And there are plenty of examples where concerted Palestinian and international pressure have led to official findings of guilt by Israeli authorities:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Hurndall#Investigation_as_a_result_of_pressure

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Miller_(filmmaker)

http://www.crimesofwar.org/commentary/israel-institutes-proceedings-in-relation-to-gaza-war/

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
13. There's definite evidence of fraud in the al Dura case. Like the boy...
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 06:30 AM
Jun 2014

...peeking at the cameras (around 0:55) after he was already declared dead:





Charles Enderlin of France 2 outrageously claimed he cut this particular footage to spare people of the boy's agony and death throes.

And note: Not one drop of blood at this scene either.

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
15. I see quite a bit of blood on his shirt
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 06:52 AM
Jun 2014

and besides, I thought you guys were of the opinion that Palestinians shot al-dura, in which case there would still be plenty of blood. Or is there a new conspiracy theory that I havent heard about yet?

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
19. Is it on his shirt or on his right upper leg? Check these out....
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 09:31 AM
Jun 2014

Compare...



to this:




Where did the blood on his upper leg suddenly go? Seems like the boy is holding a red shirt or red rag in his hand. And then there's the boy caught on camera peeking at the camera after being declared dead, which for some reason you're not interested in.

It's called Pallywood.

Fozzledick

(3,859 posts)
16. Waiting for the facts to come out before jumping to a prejudiced conclusion is "absolute bullshit"?
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 06:59 AM
Jun 2014

Ho-kay, well at least now I understand your reasoning...

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
17. No, your post is absolute bullshit
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 08:00 AM
Jun 2014

To wit:-

Whenever Palestinian propagandists have made an outrageous accusation like this in the past, it has always eventually proved to be somewhere between a gross misrepresentation and an outright fraud.

Fozzledick

(3,859 posts)
20. No, that's been my consistant observation over time
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 09:31 AM
Jun 2014

but then I'm not committed to accepting every jihadist blood libel at face value.

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
57. Then maybe you'd like to back it up?
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 06:12 PM
Jun 2014

Otherwise, people might start to think that you're just talking out of your hat.

Fozzledick

(3,859 posts)
70. Aw gee, your concern is so touching!
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 08:10 PM
Jun 2014

I'm not worried that any reasonable person would jump to such a conclusion, but I can only wonder where all your "bullshit" comments are coming from.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
25. lol (dis)honestreporting strikes again and poorly at that
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 12:41 PM
Jun 2014

the guy appears to in the exact same place in the beginning and the end (after the cut) of the video looks like (dis)honestreporting spliced part of the beginning on to the end and then claimed the guy walked away if it was anything else the video would not have gone black when it did

King_David

(14,851 posts)
28. What you guys really hate about Honest Reporting etc
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 01:55 PM
Jun 2014

Is their exposure...

"How dare they expose these absolute frauds and shine a very bad light on my guys"

LOL

King_David

(14,851 posts)
36. What's really humorous is the Hate toward
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 04:18 PM
Jun 2014

Honest Reporting, Memri,and Camera for exposing inconvenient truths.

Same reason the term "pinkwashing" came into being , to deflect from the fucking homophobic bigoted primitive and backward cultures ( as pertains to gay rights) regimes surrounding Israel = inconvenient truths.

King_David

(14,851 posts)
44. I forgot to add
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 05:40 PM
Jun 2014

With respect to gays , and gay rights and treatment of Gays , Israel's neighbors are culturally inferior as well as backward , primitive and base.

King_David

(14,851 posts)
50. I intended and stand by every word
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 05:47 PM
Jun 2014

Only a non progressive could possibly defend the homophobic bigotry of the neighbors of the Jewish state .

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
61. Don't u guys support a future Palestine with either Fatah & or Hamas in charge....
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 06:37 PM
Jun 2014

...which would be a nightmare for women, gays, religious minorities, blacks, etc.?

I don't see any of Israel's fiercest critics holding Hamas to the fire for the way they've oppressed Palestinians the last 9 years.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
62. No one has supported a state with Hamas in charge and Hamas is not in the unity government our POTUS
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 07:08 PM
Jun 2014

and SoS support either

and no Hamas has not been held to the fire to the extent Israel has been, marginalized political parties rarely held to the fire in the same manner that governments of sovereign countries are

on the same token no has made excuses or justifications for Hamas actions either, can the same be said for Israel's supporters when it comes to the siege of Gaza or the unilateral move to blockade fishing off the coast of Gaza by reducing the limit to 3 miles rather than the legally agreed to 20 mile limit?

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
64. Hamas has been in charge of Gaza since 2007 but u guys never criticize....
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 07:43 PM
Jun 2014

...them for oppressing Palestinians unless you're questioned by your opponents first. Why is that, since you say u don't support them at all?

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
67. lol again with the proving a negative
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 07:51 PM
Jun 2014

actually Hamas is considered relatively small dice these days but do by all means keep banging that drum

how come you seem fine with any abuse IDF mets out to Palestinians to the point of attempting to portray the death of 2 Palestinian kids as Pallywood (a bigoted term coined by a bigot) as we've seen here on this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=63995

seems that 'some' here fine with Palestinians suffering any abuse as long as it comes from Israeli hands

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
68. Hamas isn't small dice to the women, xtians & gays they oppress.
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 07:55 PM
Jun 2014

Oops?



I'm not fine with IDF abuse. I think it's legit to question why there were rubber bullets fired when there seemingly wasn't a threat at the time.

Pallywood is vile, hateful incitement. There was a recent example argued in another thread where 2 Palestinian boys who play soccer were shot a dozen times in the feet. Facebook photos proved that to be ridiculous libel aimed at delegitimizing and inciting more hatred. Funny that Israel's fiercest critics couldn't acknowledge the obvious Pallywood there either.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
69. in the grand scheme of things Hamas is small dice your so called concern
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 08:00 PM
Jun 2014

only surfaces as means to condemn those that would see Palestinians allowed to live as human beings as a whole, as for Hamas oppression no one here has supported it however it maybe that we consider things like enforced economic strangulation, and the day to day oppression of living under such conditions of oppression and isolation actually supportive of the abuse to the rights of Women and Gays you claim to be so concerned about, but only when you are attempting to prove something else it seems

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
71. Yes, Hamas is small dice to the pro-Palestinian contingent. LOL!
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 08:32 PM
Jun 2014

I don't claim to be pro-Palestinian, but you do.

 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
9. You should really get on the phone and tell those two dead youths that they aren't dead.
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 01:35 AM
Jun 2014

I'm sure that they'll be relived that you have come to that astounding realization so that can get on with their lives.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
22. How do u explain this video just 2-3 minutes before the incident?
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 10:01 AM
Jun 2014



That calls into question everything being claimed.

Or do u not see any funny business (Pallywood) in the video? Yes or No?

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
23. Then where are these kids? why has IDF not detained them surely they can be located
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 12:29 PM
Jun 2014

with the superior intelligence we're told IDF employs in the Occupied territories, that would clear up any question wouldn't it but no instead you present us with a silent video conveniently captioned by EldarofZyon a hate site that was not allowed on DU2

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
30. First, do we agree that The Hopper video is obvious Pallywood...
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 03:19 PM
Jun 2014

This footage was taken within 2-3 minutes of the incident.

Agree or not?

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
40. Obviously we do not agree a silent video captioned from a site
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 05:26 PM
Jun 2014

that was in the past not allowed on DU2 because it was considered unreliable (I'm being polite), is hardly convincing but you seem to enjoy it so keep going

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
42. Here's extended video from B'tselem showing the exact same thing....
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 05:35 PM
Jun 2014
#t=2189


Start at 37:25 and try to explain what can only be described as pure Pallywood, pretty please with a cherry on top.



azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
45. you do realize all of this was posted here weeks ago right? as proof of the authenticity
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 05:42 PM
Jun 2014

of what happen on Nakba Day

also note no one here has attempted to pull what you're doing here quite frankly I find your attempts to deny the deaths of 2 kids because they are Palestinian and were killed by IDF disgusting

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
49. So u have no explanation whatsoever for the Pallywood going on just 2 minutes...
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 05:45 PM
Jun 2014

...before the incident in the exact same location.

What do u have to lose by admitting that?

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
52. I do not believe there was anything questionable going on
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 05:48 PM
Jun 2014

there is nothing to admit on my part but perhaps you could admit to us what your purpose here is

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
72. Sure
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 08:41 PM
Jun 2014

but then again, I can explain why Nazi apologists seize on any mote or jot or minutiae as "proof" that six million people didn't really die. I can delve into the motivation for same (both theirs and yours), but it isn't particularly edifying really. The common aspect is that once you set the standard of proof high enough, you can deny anything.

In this case, it would take the mother of all conspiracy theories to claim that the Palestinians faked being shot by the Israelis, faked the ambulance, the hospital, the autopsy reports, then willingly agreed to be shot (in the case of the victims) and to murder their own countrymen (in the case of the ambulance driver), then staged a funeral, kept all of that from leaking out, and managed to do it all in perfect sync with how the Israelis were firing their rifles.

But I realise that many people would believe that rather than accepting the obvious.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
75. What's so far-fetched? B'tselem extended video footage shows....
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 09:02 PM
Jun 2014

Last edited Mon Jun 9, 2014, 09:33 PM - Edit history (1)

....obvious Pallywood going on, right around 37:25 just a few minutes before the incident...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113463618#post42

Since you mentioned denial by certain apologists, I'll remind you that your comrades here deny seeing Pallywood there. You have no explanation for it either. It's so bad, you refuse to even look at it. So who's really in denial here?

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
78. Okay I watched it...
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 09:37 PM
Jun 2014

Someone gets sconed on the leg, by a rubber bullet I presume. He limps into the field of view. The ambulance driver moves in, thinking he needs treatment. However, he shakes it off and flings another rock back at the Israelis for their trouble. The ambulance concludes that he doesnt need treatment and turns back around.

As I said above:-

Sure, but then again, I can explain why Nazi apologists seize on any mote or jot or minutiae as "proof" that six million people didn't really die.
 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
24. I explain it like this...
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 12:35 PM
Jun 2014

The hasnaristas will go to great lengths to discredit any death, wounding, shooting, torture, land theft, humilliation and intimidation by the IDF, illegal Israeli settlers and greater Israel as a whole.

Some of the hasbaristas are just inhuman colonists: using apartheid as a genocidal tool. Sone others are probably a bit sociopathic in nature: enjoying the suffering of another group of people. While the rest are just hapless tools and no so closeted racists.


 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
38. What's actually fascinating in an evil sort of way
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 04:26 PM
Jun 2014

is how you appear to be attempting to discredit the deaths of two Palestinians to further your cause.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
41. that struck you too? Up until today no one here questioned the whether the deaths of 2 Palestinian
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 05:33 PM
Jun 2014

really happened it has been accepted that they did, not even the Israeli government denies these kids are dead

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
43. No one is denying anyone died. The questions relate to the video footage & the bullet found. n/t
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 05:38 PM
Jun 2014

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
54. then what is the purpose of posting video's that cast doubt on the deaths of these kids
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 05:55 PM
Jun 2014

(supposedly) because the claims of no blood ect would seem to do that

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
56. The only way it is a "blood libel' is if the kids are still alive
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 06:01 PM
Jun 2014

thanks for that

shira (20,857 posts)
55. Because fabricating blood libels that incite hatred vs Jews is disgusting and vile. n/t

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=63988

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
60. When there's proof Israel killed the kids in the video with actual bullets, lemme know.
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 06:30 PM
Jun 2014

All we really know is that rubber bullets were fired, there was no blood, the bullet allegedly used couldn't have killed anyone, and there was definitely Pallywood going on just prior to the incident in question.

News reports should at the VERY LEAST report that Pallywood is a definite possibility that makes this incident anything but open and shut against Israel.

 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
73. Can you imagine if somebody claimed that the murders in Brussels were fabricated?
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 08:49 PM
Jun 2014

Can you imagine the uproar that it would cause?
 

shira

(30,109 posts)
77. You guys are too funny. Video footage from B'tselem shows you're the ones in denial....
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 09:11 PM
Jun 2014

...and yet here you are accusing others.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
80. not even CAMERA whose site has the same B'tselem vid makes ludicrous claims that we're seeing here
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 10:16 PM
Jun 2014

they claim rock throwing which apparently they feel justifies a death sentence at least when it's Palestinian kids throwing the rocks

but I will give you points for going to B'tselems youtube channel as opposed to CAMERAS site adds a certain flavor

http://blog.camera.org/archives/2014/05/post_132.html

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
76. There's a history of Pallywood incitement to hatred vs the Jewish state & its Jews....
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 09:07 PM
Jun 2014

Remember, your cherished Maan News reported a whopper just a few months ago about the IDF making mincemeat out of young Palestinian soccer players' feet. 10-12 bullets, remember? Of course you do! Facebook photos showed that was Pallywood fiction as well.

Just like the video footage 2 minutes before the incident in question on Nakba day provides more than enuff reason to doubt this latest story.

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
79. Well, its not quite an apt comparison
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 09:42 PM
Jun 2014

you would need video footage of the Brussels assassin firing the fatal shots, the victims falling to the ground, photos of their bullet riddled corpses, funerals, hospital and autopsy reports.

If you had all that, and still people denied that it ever happened, then perhaps then you could compare denial of the Brussels murders to denial of the Beitunia shootings.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
51. Maybe my lying eyes are deceiving me. What do u make of The Hopper video?
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 05:48 PM
Jun 2014

Pallywood or nothing to see there?

Maybe it's just me and I'm delusional.

 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
26. It's pretty sad that some want
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 12:57 PM
Jun 2014

to dismiss any atrocities against victims of Israeli apartheid to bolster their bigoted causes.

 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
37. You have not proven that the Nakba killings
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 04:24 PM
Jun 2014

did not take place. All you have done is attempt to discredit their deaths.

Bad form that.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
46. Video from that day shows funny business going on, no blood, bullet was intact & not deformed....
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 05:43 PM
Jun 2014

No one is claiming there weren't any deaths.

There was even a picture from Mondoweiss showing a rubber bullet in the air that made the exact same sound as the round that allegedly killed one of the boys in the video. Which goes to show there's no reason to believe a real live bullet was fired despite the rubber bullet attachment seen in the video.

It's not open and shut and there's lots of evidence from past Pallywood to call into question what happened that day.

 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
63. Your whole song and dance is based upon discrediting them since this thread was about
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 07:43 PM
Jun 2014

live fire deaths: updates to shooting deaths.

The only takeaway that I gain from your posts is that you wish to discredit.

Bad form that.

And to any DUers reading this watch shira's logical fallacy in motion.

Firstly, shira claims "No one is claiming there weren't any deaths."

Then she goes on to contradict her rushed statement with the below.

There was even a picture from Mondoweiss showing a rubber bullet in the air that made the exact same sound as the round that allegedly killed one of the boys in the video. Which goes to show there's no reason to believe a real live bullet was fired despite the rubber bullet attachment seen in the video.


The boys are not allegedly dead, shira. They were murdered.

Rubber-coated bullets do not make the same sound as live fire. The Palestinians know the difference. Unfortunately hasbaristas like to muddy the waters.

http://www.btselem.org/releases/20140520_bitunya_killings_on_nakba_day


'Tselem obtained medical opinions regarding the entry and exit wounds found in the bodies of all four victims, which are completely consistent with injuries caused by live fire and could not have been caused by rubber-coated metal bullets – especially not when fired at a relatively long range, as was the case here. Also, eyewitness accounts described the sound of live gunfire, which sounds different from rubber-coated bullet fire.


And then there's the usual round up of nonsensical 1+1=3 non-Mensa blurt that is shira's conclusion.

It's not open and shut and there's lots of evidence from past Pallywood to call into question what happened that day.


Now shira once again questions the validity of the deaths with insults.

Good for you, shira. you have reached a new low.
 

shira

(30,109 posts)
66. Nah, it's about countering fabricated slander meant to defame, demonize & incite hatred....
Mon Jun 9, 2014, 07:49 PM
Jun 2014

...vs the Jewish state.

You also misunderstand about the boys who were killed. I'm not at all convinced that the boys who died that day were the same boys from the video.

Do u still not understand why supporters of Israel have VERY GOOD reason for concern based on the Pallywood footage from "The Hopper" video?

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
83. She's not even convinced that Palestinians are human...
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 08:55 AM
Jun 2014

who's to say they're not reptilian? Can you prove they don't have scales?

Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #83)

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
88. I would not have directed that reference to anyone else other than you...
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 10:22 AM
Jun 2014

I have my disagreements with others on this board, but by and large those other people generally refrain from peddling vile and lurid conspiracy theories against Palestinians, whereas you tend to accept them uncritically.

Going back to the Mohammed al-Dura matter, I accept that it is plausible that al-Dura was killed by Palestinian fire. It is certainly true that there were Palestinian gunmen firing in the vicinity. The Israeli report of the incident, which was never published but was leaked to Haaretz, claimed that al-Dura was most likely killed by Palestinian gunfire, although it was still possible (although unlikely in their view) that al-Dura was killed by Israeli fire. I would note that the Israelis never alleged that the entire scene was faked, or that Mohammed al-Dura was still alive. Reasonable people can disagree on the former premise, but not the latter.

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
92. In relation to the blood issue...
Tue Jun 10, 2014, 11:11 PM
Jun 2014

this is the third shooting, of Mohammed Abu Thaher. In this photo the blood is starting to darken under his shirt and is sticking to his hand as well as the hand of the person trying to apply pressure to the wound.

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
93. Mostly intended for our friend
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 03:00 AM
Jun 2014

who thinks that the corpse was of someone else entirely. Its quite clearly the same person.

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
94. Elder of Ziyon: dead Palestinians were shot in the ambulance
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 07:59 PM
Jun 2014
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com.au/2014/05/the-grassy-knoll-in-beitunia.html

in the comments:-

In theory, I don't see why he couldn't have been shot entering the ambulance. One has to wonder why the ambulance arrived directly on the scene for the Pallywood dress rehearsal three minutes before but only arrived one block north for the actual play, to a spot that the people were running to before it even arrived. Wouldn't you normally flag it down and have it come to you rather than run with a victim to an empty space?

Again, this all sounds horrible, but what eyewitness would dare to come forward if it happened?

Jefferson23

(30,099 posts)
95. The anonymous blog, brought here as evidence on more than a few occassions.
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 08:15 PM
Jun 2014

I read the disclaimer, not sure when I have read one like it..they seem to know their audience:

disclaimer
The opinions expressed by those providing comments on this website are theirs alone, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Elder of Ziyon. EoZ is not responsible for the content of the comments.

You are legally liable for the content of your comments that you submit to this site.

By submitting a comment to this website, you warrant that we are not responsible, or liable of any of the content posted by you and you agree to indemnify us from any and all claims and liabilities (including legal fees) which could arise from your comments submitted to the site.

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
96. Not sure that their audience would be worth suing...
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 09:58 PM
Jun 2014

but yeah, they're an interesting mob.

To be honest, if someone ran a story that Palestinians use the blood of Jewish children to make mamoul pastries for Eid celebrations, I reckon that most of them would believe it.

Jefferson23

(30,099 posts)
98. Border cop arrested for Nakba Day killing, debunking IDF tales
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 04:37 PM
Nov 2014
The arrest appears to prove what footage and family indicated from the start: Live bullets were fired at protestors, unlawfully, as the victims posed no immediate threat.



A Border Police officer was arrested Tuesday on suspicion of shooting Nadim Syam Nuwara (17) with live ammunition, one of two Palestinian teenagers killed during Nakba Day protests in the West Bank village of Beitunia last May. The border policeman is being charged with murder and his commander is also facing charges for not reporting the incident.

The shootings, which were caught on film by CCTV cameras, showed that the protesters posed no immediate threat to the soldiers at the time they were shot. It was unclear whether the policeman was also implicated in the killing of Mohammad Mahmoud Odeh, 16, who was killed under nearly identical circumstances in the same place on the same day. The investigation into the incident is being conducted by a unit with the police force.

http://972mag.com/border-cop-arrested-for-nakba-day-killing-debunking-idf-tales/98670/

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
99. Well I'll be
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 09:42 PM
Nov 2014

One the one hand, good on them for acting now. On the other, what a load of bullshit artists.

Jefferson23

(30,099 posts)
100. Yea, well..they've had lots of practice at bullshit.
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 09:55 PM
Nov 2014

It was azurnoir who reminded me in a post about your thread...seemed a good time to
remind some here of their opinions at the time.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
102. And look, a whole thread of a person denying they were ever killed
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 10:12 PM
Nov 2014

Just like that person always does.

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
105. For the record let us note that
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 01:15 AM
Nov 2014

this was yet another fake blood libel accusation by that poster, and I quote:-

"fabricating blood libels that incite hatred vs Jews is disgusting and vile. n/t"

What is truly disgusting is the cynical, exploitative and reflexive use of anti-semitism accusations to excuse any misconduct on the part of the Israelis, up to and including cold blooded murder.

Israeli

(4,132 posts)
106. I've just read this thread for the first time ....
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 03:27 AM
Nov 2014

I dont know what to say ....I'm in shock .

" For the record let us note that " .....noted shaayecanaan .

And I agree with you on this to :

" What is truly disgusting is the cynical, exploitative and reflexive use of anti-semitism accusations to excuse any misconduct on the part of the Israelis, up to and including cold blooded murder. "

MFM008

(19,776 posts)
101. quibbling over 1 or 2 cases
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 10:00 PM
Nov 2014

when the IDF has quite a record at killing children this year. Just throw them on the pile.

Israeli

(4,132 posts)
108. Father of 'Nakba Day' shooting victim praises border guard's arrest
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 06:58 AM
Nov 2014
'Israel has opportunity to show world it is a law-abiding nation,' says father of Nadim Nawarah, 17, who was shot to death in May during Nakba Day clashes.

Relatives of one of the two Palestinian youths shot to death in Beitunia on Nakba Day praised the Jerusalem Magistrate Court's decision Wednesday to extend the remand of the border guard suspected in the incident.

Judea and Samaria District Police, who arrested the guard, is investigating a charge that he used live fire when shooting at Nadim Nawarah, 17, and Muhammad Salameh, 22. The guard's remand was extended by six days.

The shooting occurred in May, during clashes marking Nakba Day at the Beitunia checkpoint, where disturbances included stone-throwing and tire-burning. Salameh was shot in the back, while Nawarah was shot when he was not throwing stones or endangering soldiers.

"We know the investigation is still ongoing, but as a first step this is very important to us," Siyam Nawarah, Nadim's father, told Ynet.

The father emphasized that the family would closely watch developments in the case. "This is Israel's opportunity to show the entire world that it is a law-abiding nation, meaning that the law is equal for Palestinians and Israelis. Israel must show the world that it will punish the officer in the same way as it would a Palestinian who shot an Israeli.

"If a Palestinian murders an Israeli, he gets a life sentence, and that's exactly what the officer should get for murdering a Palestinian," he added. "Justice should be blind and equal for both sides."

He also praised Israeli security forces for the in-depth investigation. "I'm satisfied by the fact that Israel is taking the right steps in this case."


The father said that he received an official message on Wednesday from an officer of the District Coordination Liaison Office on the policeman's arrest.

He recounted that during the preceding days, he received a visit from Judea and Samaria District's central police unit, and that he answered all their questions.

He noted that he had felt that investigators were close to arresting a suspect, and wasn't surprised when he heard of the officer's arrest.

Continued at :
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4591647,00.html

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
109. amazing
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 09:38 AM
Nov 2014

Seems like they are actually treating this like a real investigation. Remarkable that they charged him with murder, normally this sort of stuff gets a slap on the wrist at best.

Even the us only gave six weeks to the guys that tortured an afghan taxi driver to death.

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
113. particularly this guy
Fri Nov 14, 2014, 08:09 PM
Nov 2014

"Its amazing.

Israel's kapos have arrested a Border Police officer for trying to save his own life.

This would not happen in a normal country.

Believe it or not - Israel's use of arms regulations actually prohibit police and soldiers from shooting to kill when their lives are at risk!"

"I very much do like that he was killed by live fire - and the officer should have gotten a medal for his deed."

"A Border Police officer has to be the sacrificial lamb to appease Jew-hating Arabs.

The people who run Israel's police are quite simply insane."

Jefferson23

(30,099 posts)
115. Officer accused of killing Palestinian indicted for manslaughter, maintains innocence
Sun Nov 23, 2014, 11:05 AM
Nov 2014
Israel charges Borer Patrol officer with manslaughter in May death of Palestinian youth documented in widely published security video; officers' lawyer claims 'He didn't shoot, he didn't kill.'


Officer in court (Photo: Gil Yohanan)

Aviel Magnezi
Published: 11.23.14,

Jerusalem District's state attorney filed an indictment against the Border Guard officer who shot a Palestinian to death in May 2014 during Nakba Day clashes in Beitunia.

The indictment charges the officer with manslaughter, not with murder – as previously suspected - drawing criticism from the boy's father, who said the evidence showed the killing was pre-meditated. The state attorney asked the suspect remain in custody until the end of the legal proceedings.

According to the officer's lawyer, his client was not involved in the actuall shooting in question: "No only did the defendant not kill (the Palestinian youth), he didn’t even shoot. We believe that he will be cleared of the (manslaughter) charge." He cited technical problems with the forensic evidence.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4595128,00.html

Jefferson23

(30,099 posts)
117. Border Policeman indicted for killing Palestinian teen at protest
Sun Nov 23, 2014, 04:46 PM
Nov 2014
According to the chargesheet, the soldier hid the fact that he was firing live bullets against orders.

By Chaim Levinson | Nov. 23, 2014

A Border Police soldier was indicted on Sunday for the killing of a Palestinian teenager during a protest in the West Bank town of Beitunia on May 15. Nadim Nuwara, 17, of Ramallah was fatally shot during a Nakba Day demonstration. The name of the Border Policeman may not be published.

According to the indictment by the Jerusalem District Prosecutor’s Office, the soldier served as the commander of a squad in Company 38 of the Border Police, which is stationed at the Ofer military base. On May 15, Nakba Day (when Palestinians mark what they call the "catastrophe" that happened to them with the establishment of Israel), the company was positioned at several locations in Beitunia, a town near Ramallah. At 11 A.M., the soldier was on a terrace overlooking the road between Beitunia and the separation fence and the crossing point for goods that is located there. Other Border Police officers and a soldier documenting events were with him.

The Border Police officers’ orders were to shoot rubber bullets at the demonstrators. The soldier had an M-16 rifle with an attachment for firing rubber bullets. To fire the rubber bullets, he had a magazine marked with red, with blanks inside. He had replaced the bullets in the marked magazine with regular bullets for the M-16 to hide the fact that he was firing live bullets. At 1:45 P.M., four minutes after Nuwara threw a stone at the troops, the Border Police soldier fired a bullet into his chest, killing him.

The District Prosecutor’s Office has asked to extend his remand until the end of proceedings.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.628091
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