Gun Control & RKBA
Related: About this forumDemilitarization of the Police Requires Demilitarization of Civilians | Benjamin Studebaker
http://benjaminstudebaker.com/2014/08/15/demilitarization-of-the-police-requires-demilitarization-of-civilians/
The recent clashes between demonstrators and police forces in Ferguson, Missouri over the death of Michael Brown at the hands of police forces has many calling into question the slow, steady rate at which police forces in the United States have become militarized. If we want to stop and potentially reverse this trend, we need to understand its underlying causethe simultaneous militarization of the civilian population.
For a police for to be effective, it needs a large advantage in military power over the population it is policing. When citizens contemplate committing crimes, they need to know that they are not going to be able to defeat the police in combat, and when police officers contemplate engaging with dangerous criminals, they need to believe that they are very likely to succeed and to survive.
In countries where the police do not have this military advantage, police officers themselves become afraid of criminals and refuse to engage with them. The Central American refugee crisis is a poignant example of this. In some Central American countries, gangs and paramilitary forces have weapons and training that make them capable of successfully defeat police forces in combat and regularly killing police officers. As a result, the police pull out of gang-dominated areas. The civilian populations living in these areas become subject to expropriation by the gangs. Organized crime is more successful than individual crime because organizations can pool individuals, finances, and weaponry, giving the criminals who comprise them a greater chance of successfully winning fights with police forces. This intimidates police officers into inaction or accepting bribes. True, sustainable victory for these organizations only comes once the police force has been corrupted and subdued.
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Americans often despair of doing anything about the number of guns in the country, claiming that it would be impossible to successfully regulate them, but Britains history shows that this reasoning is wrong. After World War I, Britain was inundated with surplus weapons. Yet, over the past century, Britain has taken a series of effective steps to take these guns back from citizens and criminals alike. The statistics are irrefutable:
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NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)Oh bullshit. Police need to try some kindness and need to be subservient, not the other way around.
Have you not been paying attention?
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Guns are correlated to gun deaths, get it? How many deaths by lemons? LOL. NRA give you thst chart?
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)The lemon chart came from the NRA, yes, that's so perceptive of you.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)All I see is an NRA parrot, at least you are good enough to admit it.
Do you really not see the scientific basis of my chart and the ludicrous basis of your NRA supplied one? Really, and truly, Mr. 88? Looks like I am going to have to deduct a few comprehension points from the score. Lemons and car accidents....stop it! You see a pattern in your chart......you are breaking me up, stop it!
Also you should know only made up scores do not deteriorate with age.
Lemons with your lies, anyone?
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)And, really, because I'm dying to know how you're going to spin your response.
I anticipate something along the lines of: "The NRA is very clever with photoshop", or, "That image is all over the Internet", or, yada yada "GUNZ and then yada yada "Small Penis"!
beevul
(12,194 posts)"Civilians" in American, aren't generally "Militarized" in the first place.
Now please, be totally predictable and post a huge bunch of pictures of civilian legal firearms that LOOK military but aren't, in an effort to prove me wrong, and we'll all have some laughs.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)When faced with facts he changes the subject.
At one point he says, "we can't really compare Great Britain with the US", while elsewhere he does precisely that.
What a dipshit.
sarisataka
(18,570 posts)disarm the people, leave the police armed and everything will be hunky dory...
Perhaps Mr. Studebaker forgot the precipitating cause of the protests was a police officer shooting an unarmed citizen. How exactly will that be helped by creating more unarmed citizens while police still have "a large advantage in military power over the population it is policing"??
Of course it should be pointed out Mr. Studebaker doesn't like democracy but sophiarchism
in other words, the unwashed masses are incapable of electing a good government so the elites will elect one of their own to make sure things get done right. But don't worry, said leader will sign a contract to protect the rights the elites deem important
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)Socal31
(2,484 posts)This sounds like an Onion piece.
ileus
(15,396 posts)militarization...I want my....I want my....I want my APC
Don't forget to snatch up those mean ole sniper killer deer rifles!!!
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Really quite sad, that is how I feel:
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(Texas border "militia"
Just really sad.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)then you should hurry off and catch the GD thread praising Angela Davis while it's still hot.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)this thread, very educational for me.
Progressives and liberals are for gun control, the others are with the Lepierre and Palin types, did you folks conversing with me not know that? You pay any attention to the politics? Which party wants gun control and which not?
On this issue of gun control it is you gun folk on the wrong site, truly and provably.
LOL, look at the title of the group!
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Who appointed you king?
Angela Davis -- as I previously mentioned -- bought the guns used in a courtroom hostage-taking. Yet, Davis is considered a hero of the left and a villain by Palin and LaPierre.
As I noted, the thread is still available to you in GD.
sarisataka
(18,570 posts)Hmm, it will come to me
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)If we're on the wrong side of the gun control issue, then why do a majority of Americans favor less gun control laws?
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)My name is Benjamin Studebaker.
I am an aspirant political philosopher of American origin. I have a BA in Politics from the University of Warwick in Britain and an MA from the University of Chicago. I am currently applying to PhD programs for entry in 2015. Eventually, I hope to be a professor, write books, and, if Im lucky, maybe make the world a better place. The purpose of this blog is to provide an outlet for my writing on topics of political interest and to build an audience for the future.
LOL! I wouldn't even trust this guy to be able to pick up the check on a date. Typical pampered 1%er career student with a metric ton of aspirations but no tangible accomplishments. Yet, somehow, we're suppose to believe he has all the answers.
Where did you even find this yahoo?
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Please see my the handy chart for proof. See other chart about lemons on the thread for a laugh!
Those academics and pointy heads with 88/100 MAT scores, so they say on the Internet, do not trust them, they know nothing of the real world, am I right?
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)doesn't isolate for suicides and non-gun violent crime.
For example, better than half of US gun deaths are suicides. Yet, Japan has nearly double the US suicide rate.
Of the 11,000 US gun homicides roughly 450 come from the gun-grabbers paradise of Chicago making the city 1/24th of that statistic. Yet the US has more than 24 large cities making the gun-grabbers paradise of Chicago a significant reason the entire nation is being dragged down.
Mexico, is also a modern nation -- but conveniently (for the grabbers) -- left off the chart you provided. It's gun control regime is the sort of thing you would feel comfortable endorsing yet its violent crime rate (with guns) is horrifying.
Guns do not cause crime, criminals cause crime and they will find the means to do so in spite of laws (it's what makes them criminals). They will not be deterred by gun control laws, as Chicago and Mexico prove.
Still, that doesn't answer how disarming the people will mollify the police state when the police state is already killing unarmed citizens.
Nor does you post answer why we should give ear to Mr. Studebaker.
By the way -- apparently you don't understand the reason for the lemon chart was to illustrate the fact that correlation is not causation.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)When you Google Image search "correlation not causation", the first result is the lemon chart.
The desperate person calls it an "NRA provided chart" or some such, how typical.
Anything that causes shriveling becomes an NRA talking point.
Here is the actual Google search that created the lemon chart:
http://tinyurl.com/n35v45v
There are others and clearly, the point is that such simplistic devices as are used by the OP are filled with error and fallacy, they would cause a grad school student to fail statistics if used to support a thesis.
Unless that thesis had to do with propaganda.
Or chocolate.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)The people should see the police as legitimate forces for dealing with civilian crime-solving and criminal apprehension. Which, oddly enough, is what they are charged with. If police and the state lose the legitimacy they enjoy, then the seeds for revolution and major dislocation are already sprouting. Note: criminals almost always target civilians in the first place, which partly explains why civilians arm themselves.
Frankly, LEOs, despite all the big military gear, are singularly unable to handle an urban disruption; the default setting is called-in military forces for anything more than a weekend riot.
IMO, this is basic poli-sci, Ph.D or no.
Wasn't civilian disarmament in G.B. done out of the state's fear of an armed working class?
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)I don't want to say why, but it's not unrelated to an inability to refute facts presented and then defended to him.
I don't expect any responses by that member to replies in this thread.
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