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DanTex

(20,709 posts)
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 05:10 PM Sep 2012

Inspector General debunks Fast and Furious conspiracy theories

The right-wing media's conspiracy theory that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) Operation Fast and Furious was hatched as a nefarious plot by the Obama administration to impose draconian gun control upon the United States has been debunked by an independent investigation into the failed gun trafficking sting.

According to a report issued by the Department of Justice Office of the Inspector General, there is "no evidence that the agents responsible for the cases had improper motives or were trying to accomplish anything other than dismantling a dangerous firearms trafficking organization." This is consistent with a June 2011 report by Republican congressional staff, which found that "The operation's goal was to establish a nexus between straw purchasers of assault-style weapons in the United States and Mexican drug-trafficking organizations (DTOs) operating on both sides of the United States-Mexico border."

...

This report directly contradicts baseless claims made about Fast and Furious by members of the right-wing media and National Rifle Association leadership.

In an interview released by the National Rifle Association on June 21, NRA Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre claimed, without evidence, that Fast and Furious "was about putting these guns down there in Mexico and then why they found them at crime scenes going, 'Aha, we need more gun laws in the United States.'"


http://mediamatters.org/blog/2012/09/19/doj-inspector-general-report-no-evidence-for-ri/190007

Of course, no amount of evidence is going to be able to dissuade the looniest of gun nuts that this was all a plot to arm Mexican drug cartels and thereby justify a new wave of gun control laws.
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Inspector General debunks Fast and Furious conspiracy theories (Original Post) DanTex Sep 2012 OP
Same topic at... discntnt_irny_srcsm Sep 2012 #1
Mediamatters has had good coverage of the Darrell Issa witch hunt and the nutty conspiracy theories DanTex Sep 2012 #4
The NRA lied once again... rfranklin Sep 2012 #2
The government finds itself innocent. ileus Sep 2012 #3
If you don't like it why don't you leave... rfranklin Sep 2012 #11
he didn't say that gejohnston Sep 2012 #13
That's a stretch... rfranklin Sep 2012 #15
You don't find it fishy Missycim Sep 2012 #39
It is a way to keep NRA members in line and get more donations. Thinkingabout Sep 2012 #5
LOL bongbong Sep 2012 #6
Justice for Hoyt! DanTex Sep 2012 #16
This message was self-deleted by its author former-republican Sep 2012 #7
That's more than four paragraphs. Also you forgot a link. DanTex Sep 2012 #23
More than anything else gejohnston Sep 2012 #8
LOL. Keep your eyes on that consolation prize! DanTex Sep 2012 #10
few items my ass gejohnston Sep 2012 #12
Well, if you want to read all 500 pages of the IG report, and figure out exactly where and how it DanTex Sep 2012 #14
I'll put it on my Nook and finish reading it. gejohnston Sep 2012 #17
LOL. So you're really going to pretend that it was just Alex Jones pushing the conspiracy theories! DanTex Sep 2012 #18
never said that gejohnston Sep 2012 #19
Why haven't *you* read it, if it's such a vital source to rebut RW conspiracy theories? friendly_iconoclast Sep 2012 #20
LOL. You haven't read it, and yet you're pushing right-wing conspiracy theories. DanTex Sep 2012 #22
Your devotion to the genetic fallacy is almost admirable in an odd way. friendly_iconoclast Sep 2012 #25
Your devotion to buzzwords is amusing. DanTex Sep 2012 #26
"Right-wing" is also a buzzword, along with "liberal", "heretic", and "unbeliever" friendly_iconoclast Sep 2012 #27
LOL. Yeah, god forbid I call Rush Limbaugh or Michelle Bachman "right-wing"! DanTex Sep 2012 #28
That would be germane if we were discussing them. However, we are not. friendly_iconoclast Sep 2012 #29
But we are discussing equally ludicrous conspiracy theories, originated and spread DanTex Sep 2012 #30
And what CT do *you* believe I'm spreading? Holder is incompetent, not a crook. friendly_iconoclast Sep 2012 #31
Well, the right-winger you were quoting in your OP suggested that Holder knew about DanTex Sep 2012 #32
It's not a theory I ever gave much credence to, and I will defer to the old saw... friendly_iconoclast Sep 2012 #33
That's what you claim now... DanTex Sep 2012 #34
I note that you didn't actually *cite* the contents of those posts- so I will: friendly_iconoclast Sep 2012 #36
LOL. Yeah, comparing F&F to Watergate is "healthy suspicion". Keep digging... DanTex Sep 2012 #38
The fact remains that Fast and Furious was a FUBAR program ... spin Sep 2012 #9
I never thought it was a conspiracy Reasonable_Argument Sep 2012 #21
I always viewed it through Hanlan's Razor. sir pball Sep 2012 #24
If Eric Holder did not know Jenoch Sep 2012 #35
Exactly. The charitable explanation is that Holder is incompetent. friendly_iconoclast Sep 2012 #37
Either Eric Holder knew it went on or he didn't Missycim Sep 2012 #40

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
4. Mediamatters has had good coverage of the Darrell Issa witch hunt and the nutty conspiracy theories
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 05:22 PM
Sep 2012

coming from the NRA and the right-wing media.

Here's a link to the whole inspector general report.
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/Fast_Furious_Report.pdf

 

rfranklin

(13,200 posts)
2. The NRA lied once again...
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 05:20 PM
Sep 2012

right wing dickheads that they are--

Since President Obama asserted executive privilege earlier this week over a set of Department of Justice internal documents, the National Rifle Association has been quick to claim that the president's action is proof at last for the organization's insane conspiracy theory that Operation Fast and Furious was actually designed as a nefarious plot against the Second Amendment.

But the NRA's "evidence" could not be more lacking, as the documents over which Obama asserted executive privilege were generated after the conclusion of the failed Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) operation. A June 19 letter sent from the Justice Department to Obama which asked the president assert his privilege clearly states that the request only covers documents "from after February 4, 2011 related to the Department's response to Congress." Fast and Furious was terminated in January 2011. The documents deal with how DOJ handled congressional inquiries into the program, not its authorization.

That NRA CEO Wayne LaPierre has not actually seen the documents in question did little to temper his belief, expressed on NRA News, that the contents of the privileged documents prove that he was right about the Obama administration all along. http://mediamatters.org/blog/2012/06/22/nra-obamas-routine-executive-privilege-claim-pr/185902




 

rfranklin

(13,200 posts)
11. If you don't like it why don't you leave...
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 07:02 PM
Sep 2012

You think that Darryl Issa is the source of truths? You are an NRA tool.

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
13. he didn't say that
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 07:12 PM
Sep 2012

For all you know, he might think Issa is part of the conspiracy but runs his anti Holder sideshow to distract his own role. After all, isn't Issa's district in the San Diego area? Who is the nearest cartel there?

 

Missycim

(950 posts)
39. You don't find it fishy
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 07:36 PM
Sep 2012

that the govt finds itself.....not guilty? When cops investigates itself after a shooting I am sure you're just as satisfied as well.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
5. It is a way to keep NRA members in line and get more donations.
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 05:41 PM
Sep 2012

What the NRA should be alarmed about is the requirement of photo ID's for voter registration. Another way to attach more information to more people and easier to locate you and then their guns. I wonder how much money they was able to get off the Fast and Furious lie. One of Mitt's 47% is on food stamps, goes and buys guns for redistribution to those such as the drug cartels who can not purchase them directly. No income tax paid on the resale of guns to illegals. Go figure.

 

bongbong

(5,436 posts)
6. LOL
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 05:44 PM
Sep 2012

The demented anarchists in the NRA have another FAIL to add to their long list.

BTW, Hoyt sends his greetings to everyone in the dungeon, especially the toters.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
16. Justice for Hoyt!
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 07:27 PM
Sep 2012

Funny how loony right-wing conspiracy theories are OK in the gungeon, but talking about the racism in the gun culture gets you banned...

Response to DanTex (Original post)

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
23. That's more than four paragraphs. Also you forgot a link.
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 07:58 AM
Sep 2012

Or should I say "forgot" a link -- maybe you were simply trying to hide the fact that your article is from Glenn Beck's website theBlaze.com. Like I said in the OP, some people just can't let go of the conspiracy theories.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
10. LOL. Keep your eyes on that consolation prize!
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 06:52 PM
Sep 2012

For years the gun nuts kept insisting that it couldn't be "just" a botched sting operation, and that it must have been some evil plot by Holder/Clinton/Obama to secretly traffic guns into Mexico. And now a report comes out finding that Holder actually had nothing to do with it, and that it was basically a botched sting after all, which means the NRA bots were wrong about pretty much everything important. But, hey, if it makes you feel better that the Fortune article differed from the Inspector General on a few items, go for it!

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
12. few items my ass
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 07:08 PM
Sep 2012

Fortune article said the whistle blowers acted on their own, and lied to congress to get out of trouble, and painted Voth as Clint Eastwood's character in Heart Break Ridge. It might have varied from CBS slightly. I don't know anyone who thinks it was a Nixonian conspiracy outside of Alex Jones.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
14. Well, if you want to read all 500 pages of the IG report, and figure out exactly where and how it
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 07:16 PM
Sep 2012

differs from the Fortune versus CBS versus FOXNews versions of the story, you go right ahead. I'm pretty happy with the fact that the loony right-wing conspiracy theories that have been tossed around have been debunked (yet again). Of course, as I predicted, they haven't gone away...

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
17. I'll put it on my Nook and finish reading it.
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 07:29 PM
Sep 2012

I don't know what the Fox version is, or even if they covered it. But if you are just satisfied with Alex Jones being wrong, cool.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
18. LOL. So you're really going to pretend that it was just Alex Jones pushing the conspiracy theories!
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 07:35 PM
Sep 2012

This must be hitting you really hard for you to go that deep into denial.

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
19. never said that
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 07:51 PM
Sep 2012

I said he was the only one that I know of personally. Since I don't watch Fox, or TV at all for that matter, I don't know what they said if anything. Jones is at least entertaining, and his umm spin is interesting. He mixes RW BS with "the Illuminati bankers" and real conspiracies that I first heard on Pacifica that the right poo pooed as "conspiracy theory". (specifically Contra/Cocaine, when the proposed Operation NORTHWOODS became declassified, Tonkin Gulf incident that wasn't).

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
20. Why haven't *you* read it, if it's such a vital source to rebut RW conspiracy theories?
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 10:20 PM
Sep 2012

That's the unacknowledged problem with you lot:

You're lazy. You satisfy yourselves with reposting stuff from the intertubes that you find amenable, yet balk at doing the hard political work required to achieve your goals.

If Barack Obama had the work ethic of the average gun control advocate, he'd still be a US senator from Illinois (if that)...

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
22. LOL. You haven't read it, and yet you're pushing right-wing conspiracy theories.
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 07:41 AM
Sep 2012
http://www.democraticunderground.com/117273186

The report states pretty unequivocally that Eric Holder had nothing to do with F&F, and that it was a botched operation with no ulterior motives. You don't need to read all 500 pages to see that.

Unless you have evidence to the contrary? Or do you prefer to let right-wing columnists do your talking?
 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
25. Your devotion to the genetic fallacy is almost admirable in an odd way.
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 02:51 PM
Sep 2012

What I said on the thread you linked to still stands:

"When you're ready to discuss issues on their merits, instead of who promotes them or where they originate, we'll be waiting for you... "

Also, you do realize that you've as much as acknowledged (albeit in a backhanded way) that Holder was asleep at the switch while his underlings ran the Fast & Furious
clusterfuck?

I don't know about you, but I don't exactly find it heartwarming to know that the Attorney General was 'merely' incompetent instead of corrupt...

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
26. Your devotion to buzzwords is amusing.
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 03:00 PM
Sep 2012

Unfortunately, like most buzzword-droppers, your capacity for reason is sorely lacking.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
27. "Right-wing" is also a buzzword, along with "liberal", "heretic", and "unbeliever"
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 03:14 PM
Sep 2012

They serve to short-circuit critical thought and elicit an emotional reaction in the listener, along the lines of:

"God/the Inspector General wrote it, I believe it, that settles it"...

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
28. LOL. Yeah, god forbid I call Rush Limbaugh or Michelle Bachman "right-wing"!
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 03:19 PM
Sep 2012

That's just a buzzword! Really I should be open-minded to the idea that Obama is a secret Kenyan communist! How dare I dismiss it as right-wing lunacy!

(since it's the gungeon, just to be clear, this is )

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
29. That would be germane if we were discussing them. However, we are not.
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 03:28 PM
Sep 2012

Frankly, I'm surprised you haven't brought up climate change denial yet...

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
30. But we are discussing equally ludicrous conspiracy theories, originated and spread
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 03:35 PM
Sep 2012

by the same people. At least you are.

Actually, the guy who started the Fast and Furious conspiracy theories might possibly be even more of a nutcase than Limbaugh and Bachmann. You're in great company!

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
32. Well, the right-winger you were quoting in your OP suggested that Holder knew about
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 03:52 PM
Sep 2012

F&F and that the IG report covered it up. And underlying this is the theory that F&F was a ploy to pass new gun control laws. I'm not sure exactly where you stand on the loony conspiracy theory scale, but then I don't really care.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
33. It's not a theory I ever gave much credence to, and I will defer to the old saw...
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 04:13 PM
Sep 2012

..."Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity."

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
34. That's what you claim now...
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 04:37 PM
Sep 2012

But I recall you being pretty receptive to the idea that it was a conspiracy to justify stronger gun laws:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php/www.scn.org/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=469090&mesg_id=485203
The witch hunt was making you giddy with anticipation:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php/www.scn.org/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=469090&mesg_id=469235
You even compared it to watergate:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php/www.scn.org/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=469090&mesg_id=469232

LOL. Yeah, no conspiracy theories for you!

Like I said in the OP, for people (like you) that were so excited by the prospect of seeing Eric Holder and all those other gun-controllers embarrassed by a gun-running conspiracy, the revelation that it was just a mundane botched operation like the sane people all said from the get-go must be pretty disappointing. Gotta keep the conspiracy dreams alive somehow!

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
36. I note that you didn't actually *cite* the contents of those posts- so I will:
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 05:48 PM
Sep 2012
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php/www.scn.org/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=469090&mesg_id=485203

friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
95. UPDATE: "Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-57338546-10391695...


ATF officials didn't intend to publicly disclose their own role in letting Mexican cartels obtain the weapons, but emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called "Demand Letter 3". That would require some U.S. gun shops to report the sale of multiple rifles or "long guns." Demand Letter 3 was so named because it would be the third ATF program demanding gun dealers report tracing information.



"Lunacy", eh?


So was CBS falsifying emails, as cited above and here?:


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-57338546-10391695/documents-atf-used-fast-and-furious-to-make-the-case-for-gun-regulations



...ATF officials didn't intend to publicly disclose their own role in letting Mexican cartels obtain the weapons, but emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called "Demand Letter 3". That would require some U.S. gun shops to report the sale of multiple rifles or "long guns." Demand Letter 3 was so named because it would be the third ATF program demanding gun dealers report tracing information.

On July 14, 2010 after ATF headquarters in Washington D.C. received an update on Fast and Furious, ATF Field Ops Assistant Director Mark Chait emailed Bill Newell, ATF's Phoenix Special Agent in Charge of Fast and Furious:

"Bill - can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same (licensed gun dealer) and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks."


On Jan. 4, 2011, as ATF prepared a press conference to announce arrests in Fast and Furious, Newell saw it as &quot A)nother time to address Multiple Sale on Long Guns issue." And a day after the press conference, Chait emailed Newell: "Bill--well done yesterday... (I)n light of our request for Demand letter 3, this case could be a strong supporting factor if we can determine how many multiple sales of long guns occurred during the course of this case." ....


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php/www.scn.org/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=469090&mesg_id=469235

friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!" They protest too much, methinks

Time to double down on the investigation.

You notice how, as more details are revealed, the louder and shriller the calls of "It's an NRA plot" get?



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php/www.scn.org/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=469090&mesg_id=469232


friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. I'm old enough to remember when certain persons were very emphatic about describing Watergate as

Edited on Fri Oct-14-11 06:35 PM by friendly_iconoclast
a "third-rate burglary". Or when Eugene Hasenfuss crashed a C-119 in Central America.

I'm getting the same vibes again. The more people keep pulling at loose threads, the more certain parties complain...


I'd say given the emails dug up by CBS News, this was less 'conspiracy theory' and more 'healthy suspicion'. No one, whatever their position or political stance
is above investigation.


DanTex

(20,709 posts)
38. LOL. Yeah, comparing F&F to Watergate is "healthy suspicion". Keep digging...
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 05:59 PM
Sep 2012


Oh, and by the way, those CBS emails showed that information gained from F&F was used as part of the case for multiple sales reporting. On the other hand, the loony conspiracy theory that you were pushing is that F&F was done on purpose to increase the flow of guns to Mexico. Night and day.

Are you really not smart enough to know the difference? Or are you just playing dumb?

spin

(17,493 posts)
9. The fact remains that Fast and Furious was a FUBAR program ...
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 06:21 PM
Sep 2012

and the report clearly points that out.

2 officials leave Justice after report on Fast and Furious
September 19, 2012 19:34 GMT

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Two senior Justice Department officials are leaving their jobs, after the release of a report that faulted the agency's handling of a gun-trafficking probe in Arizona.

***snip***

The inspector general's report cited misguided strategies, errors in judgment and management failures during the bungled operation. More than a dozen people were referred for possible disciplinary action for their roles in the probe and an earlier investigation that was carried out during the George W. Bush administration....emphasis added

***snip***

One of those criticized in the report, Kenneth Melson, retired upon release of the report. He was the former acting director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. The report said he "made too many assumptions about the case."

And Justice Department career attorney Jason Weinstein has resigned. He was a deputy assistant attorney general in the department's criminal division in Washington. The report said he was in a position to see the similar "inappropriate tactics" used in the two probes.
http://www.cbs12.com/template/inews_wire/wires.national/294a18b6-www.cbs12.com.shtml


Fast and Furious was an ill conceived scheme that backfired badly resulting in the deaths of both Americans and Mexicans. It was not a plan designed to push for another assault weapons ban as suggested by conservatives.

I firmly support the ATF's efforts to curtail the smuggling of firearms to Mexico. I believe that ATF agents on the ground do their best to stop this activity and deserve credit. Unfortunately management in the ATF is often so poor that the department is known as the Keystone Cops of law enforcement.
 
21. I never thought it was a conspiracy
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 11:29 PM
Sep 2012

I do think it was gross incompetence that shouldn't have been covered up by executive privilege and Holder should step down because of it.

sir pball

(4,726 posts)
24. I always viewed it through Hanlan's Razor.
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 11:51 AM
Sep 2012

Never attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained by stupidity.

 

Jenoch

(7,720 posts)
35. If Eric Holder did not know
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 04:40 PM
Sep 2012

anything about the 'Fast & Furious' operation isn't that the same thing as saying he is inept at his job as AG? Shouldn't the AG KNOW about an operation of this sort that is being run by his employees?

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
37. Exactly. The charitable explanation is that Holder is incompetent.
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 05:53 PM
Sep 2012

I thought it was not outside the realm of possibilty that he was a crook, but we can all see now he is an example of the Peter Principle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle

The principle holds that in a hierarchy, members are promoted so long as they work competently. Eventually they are promoted to a position at which they are no longer competent (their "level of incompetence&quot , and there they remain, being unable to earn further promotions.
 

Missycim

(950 posts)
40. Either Eric Holder knew it went on or he didn't
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 07:43 PM
Sep 2012

if he did then he should be fired, if it went on without his knowledge then he should be fired for incompetence.

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