Gun Control & RKBA
Related: About this forumInspector General debunks Fast and Furious conspiracy theories
According to a report issued by the Department of Justice Office of the Inspector General, there is "no evidence that the agents responsible for the cases had improper motives or were trying to accomplish anything other than dismantling a dangerous firearms trafficking organization." This is consistent with a June 2011 report by Republican congressional staff, which found that "The operation's goal was to establish a nexus between straw purchasers of assault-style weapons in the United States and Mexican drug-trafficking organizations (DTOs) operating on both sides of the United States-Mexico border."
...
This report directly contradicts baseless claims made about Fast and Furious by members of the right-wing media and National Rifle Association leadership.
In an interview released by the National Rifle Association on June 21, NRA Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre claimed, without evidence, that Fast and Furious "was about putting these guns down there in Mexico and then why they found them at crime scenes going, 'Aha, we need more gun laws in the United States.'"
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2012/09/19/doj-inspector-general-report-no-evidence-for-ri/190007
Of course, no amount of evidence is going to be able to dissuade the looniest of gun nuts that this was all a plot to arm Mexican drug cartels and thereby justify a new wave of gun control laws.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,470 posts)DanTex
(20,709 posts)coming from the NRA and the right-wing media.
Here's a link to the whole inspector general report.
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/Fast_Furious_Report.pdf
rfranklin
(13,200 posts)right wing dickheads that they are--
Since President Obama asserted executive privilege earlier this week over a set of Department of Justice internal documents, the National Rifle Association has been quick to claim that the president's action is proof at last for the organization's insane conspiracy theory that Operation Fast and Furious was actually designed as a nefarious plot against the Second Amendment.
But the NRA's "evidence" could not be more lacking, as the documents over which Obama asserted executive privilege were generated after the conclusion of the failed Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) operation. A June 19 letter sent from the Justice Department to Obama which asked the president assert his privilege clearly states that the request only covers documents "from after February 4, 2011 related to the Department's response to Congress." Fast and Furious was terminated in January 2011. The documents deal with how DOJ handled congressional inquiries into the program, not its authorization.
That NRA CEO Wayne LaPierre has not actually seen the documents in question did little to temper his belief, expressed on NRA News, that the contents of the privileged documents prove that he was right about the Obama administration all along. http://mediamatters.org/blog/2012/06/22/nra-obamas-routine-executive-privilege-claim-pr/185902
ileus
(15,396 posts)rfranklin
(13,200 posts)You think that Darryl Issa is the source of truths? You are an NRA tool.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)For all you know, he might think Issa is part of the conspiracy but runs his anti Holder sideshow to distract his own role. After all, isn't Issa's district in the San Diego area? Who is the nearest cartel there?
rfranklin
(13,200 posts)and there is no evidence I know of to back up that one.
Missycim
(950 posts)that the govt finds itself.....not guilty? When cops investigates itself after a shooting I am sure you're just as satisfied as well.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)What the NRA should be alarmed about is the requirement of photo ID's for voter registration. Another way to attach more information to more people and easier to locate you and then their guns. I wonder how much money they was able to get off the Fast and Furious lie. One of Mitt's 47% is on food stamps, goes and buys guns for redistribution to those such as the drug cartels who can not purchase them directly. No income tax paid on the resale of guns to illegals. Go figure.
The demented anarchists in the NRA have another FAIL to add to their long list.
BTW, Hoyt sends his greetings to everyone in the dungeon, especially the toters.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Funny how loony right-wing conspiracy theories are OK in the gungeon, but talking about the racism in the gun culture gets you banned...
Response to DanTex (Original post)
former-republican This message was self-deleted by its author.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Or should I say "forgot" a link -- maybe you were simply trying to hide the fact that your article is from Glenn Beck's website theBlaze.com. Like I said in the OP, some people just can't let go of the conspiracy theories.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)it debunks the whistle blower retaliation piece you loved so much.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)For years the gun nuts kept insisting that it couldn't be "just" a botched sting operation, and that it must have been some evil plot by Holder/Clinton/Obama to secretly traffic guns into Mexico. And now a report comes out finding that Holder actually had nothing to do with it, and that it was basically a botched sting after all, which means the NRA bots were wrong about pretty much everything important. But, hey, if it makes you feel better that the Fortune article differed from the Inspector General on a few items, go for it!
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)Fortune article said the whistle blowers acted on their own, and lied to congress to get out of trouble, and painted Voth as Clint Eastwood's character in Heart Break Ridge. It might have varied from CBS slightly. I don't know anyone who thinks it was a Nixonian conspiracy outside of Alex Jones.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)differs from the Fortune versus CBS versus FOXNews versions of the story, you go right ahead. I'm pretty happy with the fact that the loony right-wing conspiracy theories that have been tossed around have been debunked (yet again). Of course, as I predicted, they haven't gone away...
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)I don't know what the Fox version is, or even if they covered it. But if you are just satisfied with Alex Jones being wrong, cool.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)This must be hitting you really hard for you to go that deep into denial.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)I said he was the only one that I know of personally. Since I don't watch Fox, or TV at all for that matter, I don't know what they said if anything. Jones is at least entertaining, and his umm spin is interesting. He mixes RW BS with "the Illuminati bankers" and real conspiracies that I first heard on Pacifica that the right poo pooed as "conspiracy theory". (specifically Contra/Cocaine, when the proposed Operation NORTHWOODS became declassified, Tonkin Gulf incident that wasn't).
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)That's the unacknowledged problem with you lot:
You're lazy. You satisfy yourselves with reposting stuff from the intertubes that you find amenable, yet balk at doing the hard political work required to achieve your goals.
If Barack Obama had the work ethic of the average gun control advocate, he'd still be a US senator from Illinois (if that)...
DanTex
(20,709 posts)The report states pretty unequivocally that Eric Holder had nothing to do with F&F, and that it was a botched operation with no ulterior motives. You don't need to read all 500 pages to see that.
Unless you have evidence to the contrary? Or do you prefer to let right-wing columnists do your talking?
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)What I said on the thread you linked to still stands:
"When you're ready to discuss issues on their merits, instead of who promotes them or where they originate, we'll be waiting for you... "
Also, you do realize that you've as much as acknowledged (albeit in a backhanded way) that Holder was asleep at the switch while his underlings ran the Fast & Furious
clusterfuck?
I don't know about you, but I don't exactly find it heartwarming to know that the Attorney General was 'merely' incompetent instead of corrupt...
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Unfortunately, like most buzzword-droppers, your capacity for reason is sorely lacking.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)They serve to short-circuit critical thought and elicit an emotional reaction in the listener, along the lines of:
"God/the Inspector General wrote it, I believe it, that settles it"...
DanTex
(20,709 posts)That's just a buzzword! Really I should be open-minded to the idea that Obama is a secret Kenyan communist! How dare I dismiss it as right-wing lunacy!
(since it's the gungeon, just to be clear, this is )
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)Frankly, I'm surprised you haven't brought up climate change denial yet...
DanTex
(20,709 posts)by the same people. At least you are.
Actually, the guy who started the Fast and Furious conspiracy theories might possibly be even more of a nutcase than Limbaugh and Bachmann. You're in great company!
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)DanTex
(20,709 posts)F&F and that the IG report covered it up. And underlying this is the theory that F&F was a ploy to pass new gun control laws. I'm not sure exactly where you stand on the loony conspiracy theory scale, but then I don't really care.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)..."Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity."
DanTex
(20,709 posts)But I recall you being pretty receptive to the idea that it was a conspiracy to justify stronger gun laws:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php/www.scn.org/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=469090&mesg_id=485203
The witch hunt was making you giddy with anticipation:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php/www.scn.org/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=469090&mesg_id=469235
You even compared it to watergate:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php/www.scn.org/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=469090&mesg_id=469232
LOL. Yeah, no conspiracy theories for you!
Like I said in the OP, for people (like you) that were so excited by the prospect of seeing Eric Holder and all those other gun-controllers embarrassed by a gun-running conspiracy, the revelation that it was just a mundane botched operation like the sane people all said from the get-go must be pretty disappointing. Gotta keep the conspiracy dreams alive somehow!
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)Response to Original message
95. UPDATE: "Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-57338546-10391695...
"Lunacy", eh?
So was CBS falsifying emails, as cited above and here?:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-57338546-10391695/documents-atf-used-fast-and-furious-to-make-the-case-for-gun-regulations
On July 14, 2010 after ATF headquarters in Washington D.C. received an update on Fast and Furious, ATF Field Ops Assistant Director Mark Chait emailed Bill Newell, ATF's Phoenix Special Agent in Charge of Fast and Furious:
"Bill - can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same (licensed gun dealer) and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks."
On Jan. 4, 2011, as ATF prepared a press conference to announce arrests in Fast and Furious, Newell saw it as " A)nother time to address Multiple Sale on Long Guns issue." And a day after the press conference, Chait emailed Newell: "Bill--well done yesterday... (I)n light of our request for Demand letter 3, this case could be a strong supporting factor if we can determine how many multiple sales of long guns occurred during the course of this case." ....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php/www.scn.org/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=469090&mesg_id=469235
Response to Reply #16
19. "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!" They protest too much, methinks
Time to double down on the investigation.
You notice how, as more details are revealed, the louder and shriller the calls of "It's an NRA plot" get?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php/www.scn.org/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=469090&mesg_id=469232
Response to Reply #9
18. I'm old enough to remember when certain persons were very emphatic about describing Watergate as
Edited on Fri Oct-14-11 06:35 PM by friendly_iconoclast
a "third-rate burglary". Or when Eugene Hasenfuss crashed a C-119 in Central America.
I'm getting the same vibes again. The more people keep pulling at loose threads, the more certain parties complain...
I'd say given the emails dug up by CBS News, this was less 'conspiracy theory' and more 'healthy suspicion'. No one, whatever their position or political stance
is above investigation.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Oh, and by the way, those CBS emails showed that information gained from F&F was used as part of the case for multiple sales reporting. On the other hand, the loony conspiracy theory that you were pushing is that F&F was done on purpose to increase the flow of guns to Mexico. Night and day.
Are you really not smart enough to know the difference? Or are you just playing dumb?
spin
(17,493 posts)and the report clearly points that out.
2 officials leave Justice after report on Fast and Furious
September 19, 2012 19:34 GMT
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Two senior Justice Department officials are leaving their jobs, after the release of a report that faulted the agency's handling of a gun-trafficking probe in Arizona.
***snip***
The inspector general's report cited misguided strategies, errors in judgment and management failures during the bungled operation. More than a dozen people were referred for possible disciplinary action for their roles in the probe and an earlier investigation that was carried out during the George W. Bush administration....emphasis added
***snip***
One of those criticized in the report, Kenneth Melson, retired upon release of the report. He was the former acting director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. The report said he "made too many assumptions about the case."
And Justice Department career attorney Jason Weinstein has resigned. He was a deputy assistant attorney general in the department's criminal division in Washington. The report said he was in a position to see the similar "inappropriate tactics" used in the two probes.
http://www.cbs12.com/template/inews_wire/wires.national/294a18b6-www.cbs12.com.shtml
Fast and Furious was an ill conceived scheme that backfired badly resulting in the deaths of both Americans and Mexicans. It was not a plan designed to push for another assault weapons ban as suggested by conservatives.
I firmly support the ATF's efforts to curtail the smuggling of firearms to Mexico. I believe that ATF agents on the ground do their best to stop this activity and deserve credit. Unfortunately management in the ATF is often so poor that the department is known as the Keystone Cops of law enforcement.
Reasonable_Argument
(881 posts)I do think it was gross incompetence that shouldn't have been covered up by executive privilege and Holder should step down because of it.
sir pball
(4,726 posts)Never attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained by stupidity.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)anything about the 'Fast & Furious' operation isn't that the same thing as saying he is inept at his job as AG? Shouldn't the AG KNOW about an operation of this sort that is being run by his employees?
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)I thought it was not outside the realm of possibilty that he was a crook, but we can all see now he is an example of the Peter Principle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle
Missycim
(950 posts)if he did then he should be fired, if it went on without his knowledge then he should be fired for incompetence.