African American
Related: About this forumLet's Keep It Real....
I hardly ever post on DU anymore. I was never really a prolific poster but in the past, I did post more on subjects that were important to me. I tried to make sure my posts were thoughtful and appreciated the thoughtful responses I received even when a poster didn't agree with me. But those days are long gone. DU seems to be more about name calling, mindless posting and alerting when your feelings get hurt rather than thoughtful engagement these days. So I've been content to come here mainly for news and to get a feel for what's going on in the world.
But I just had to jump on and post about the stuff I'm reading about how we Black folk are voting against our self-interest and how we have "Stockholm Syndrome". Fucking crying out loud...Stockholm Syndrome????? Really??
Black people have been the most loyal constituents of the modern Democratic party bar none. And as someone who has been around the block a few times, it both saddens and angers me that it seems we are now being lectured as to how we should vote and how people, especially people outside our community, see the Black community's support for Hillary Clinton as some sort of ignorant, masochistic exercise in self destruction. One in which we tilt at windmills when our babies burn.
I'm going to refrain from getting into the whole Clinton versus Sanders thing. But I will say to those that disparage the voting tendencies of Black America.....Don't get it twisted.
It wasn't Black people voting against their self interest that led to 8 years of the Reagan administration and then to the administration of Bush Sr. Nope...As far as I can recall, it was White people who did so. Labor unions, predominantly White Labor unions, supported Reagan whole-heartedly and got royally fucked in the ass as a reward. Black people faithfully backed the Democratic candidate and got even more royally fucked. Not because of any myopia on our own part but because of the White democrats who saw Reagan as the second coming and who....dare I say it......voted against their self-interests.
It wasn't Black people voting against their self interest that led to 8 years of the Bush Jr. administration. Nope...As far as I can recall, it was White people who did so. People in Appalachia or the deep South who instead of understanding that their plight in this country is the same as ours, chose to view us as less than human and the source of all of the countrys ills. But we still solidly supported the democratic party even though the party has let us down time and time again.
So all I have to say to those who have the misguided audacity to compare us to a fucking abused spouse is ....GO FUCK YOURSELVES. Maybe instead of lecturing us on how you think we should vote and preaching to us in condescending terms on what is best for us, you should instead take a hard look in the mirror and clean up the shit in your own backyard. We'll be there for whoever the democratic candidate is in the fall. So you don't need to come lecturing to us while your feet are covered in shit.
angstlessk
(11,862 posts)The Clintons did nothing to enhance the lives of black folks...regardless of what they try to make you believe.
If you can give me ONE thing they did to enhance the lives of POC please produce it!
BronxBoy
(2,286 posts)Did you not read and comprehend a word of what I posted???????
You post the " I'm a white woman married to a Black man" bullshit and say nothing about the main point of my post which is how the fuck can you lecture us on our voting choices when it has been White people voting against their self interests that have truly harmed the country.
I don't think it's a personal attack to speak
about one's own personal observation when
it comes to the Clintons.
The corporate power base, however, encourages
and applauds any one or any group that moves
towards its interests, especially when they find
good and plausible sounding reasons to turm
against anyone who wants to regulate business
and ... gasp ... use government power and programs
to serve the needs of all the people, not just the
rich and corporate. The Clintons do not have a
good record in this regard, while Sanders does.
It appears to me that the dialogue parameters
set up by rightwing propaganda and the biased
media has served its purpose well. It's very hard
to withstand. Even the actual terms civil rights
and liberal have become bete noirs to many people
who would find great comfort and humanity
otherwise,.. instead of embracing the attack dog
mentality and power stance of the rightwing bully
and the moneyed interests.
The Clintons and the big banks thank us for any
of our decisions to turn against those who might
actually be able to stem the sociopathy, though.
Power is probably a true aphrodisiac, while humanity
and heart require thought and care that isn't quite
so seductive or glamorous in the celebrity culture
of those with money.
JustAnotherGen
(31,681 posts)He's talking about white people getting on the backs of black people when traditionally the fuckery of voting against ones interests is a white thing that black people couldn't understand.
IE Dear White Folks - Please buy a mirror, look in it, take responsibility for your votes, behavior and actions - then question us.
Until such a time - get off our backs. We didn't do it. Reagan and his policies are not our fault.
When in April Clinton corporate money showers fall
And pierce the drought of March to the root
It appears to me that the dialogue parameters
Set up by right-wing propaganda do flower,
When also Sanders with his sweet breath
Exhales an air without celebrity or power
Upon the tender shoots, stems sociopathy
His half-course in the race has run,
And the Democrats are making melody
The biased media sleep away the night with open eye
(So the corporate power base, however, encourages)
Then people long to go on pilgrimages.
Dustlawyer
(10,493 posts)to point out what they believe and why. Black people are no better or worse in falling for the massive amount of propaganda out there being directed at American voters. I don't trust or believe Hillary in anything she says to any group (unless the Wall Street transcripts are produced).
In this election, the black vote will probably be the deciding factor. That is why there has been so much effort in winning the black vote. Like any other group, most blacks do not delve deeply into the politics to know what is really going on, it takes a lot of Internet reading over a period of time to understand all of the dynamics. White Trump supporters are a good example of people who refuse to look deep into their candidate and swallow the propaganda.
Admittedly, we Bernie supporters are desperate to convince black voters that our candidate is different and has their backs, along with other minorities and everyone else that makes up the poor and middle class. Not all of us say or present things in the best light (myself included). We see Bernie as our best chance to break the grip that the wealthy and powerful have on this country. Bernie is trying to restore Representative Democracy to break their control over our government, judicial system, and the media. Hillary is a product, the poster child even, of the Plutocratic control.
I am not "white splaining" to blacks, this is my opinion. Many black leaders are saying the same thing that I am. We are all being manipulated to some extent, it's taking the time to investigate the candidates and making a decision. Bernie supporters should try to educate everyone about our candidate so that people can make their own informed decision. We are advocates for our candidate because we believe in him, but we are not perfect.
It is not my intent to offend anyone. I have never alerted on anyone, never put anyone on ignore, but I have said some things that I later regretted in calmer moments. It's hard to be objective in the political silly season, but I am trying. That's why I would vote for Hillary should she win the Primary. Objectively, she is still better than any Republican running, but she will do the will of the Donors first. I truly believe this! Just like I believe that Bernie will benefit every American except the super rich and powerful, and even then I believe that he will be better in the long run for them as well. He could save them from themselves because they never have enough and will keep pushing until they go to far. The evidence of the anti-establishment sentiment in both Primary's demonstrates that Americans are realizing how we are being played.
Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)cant trust them and have to figure out which one represents the least harm to their physical safety.
For white people to tell black people which white politician is better for them, is quite insulting.
Not saying you are doing that, just saying.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)I've never felt I could afford to trust them either. (I know it's not equivalent in consequences, but I do feel the same way as far as I can.)
Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)what I was saying, I will think of it.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)I was just expressing a necessarily diluted version of the same sentiment.
Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)and I stopped laughing
or started
I cant decide
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)It would be hilarious if it wasn't dead serious.
Dustlawyer
(10,493 posts)I appreciate that you believe me that my intent is not to insult, there is too much of that here already. While I know that some here do have that intent, don't confuse fervent belief and advocacy of regular Americans trying their best to communicate why we think it is so important that Bernie wins.
The views that I expressed in my previous post are the same ones that my black wife and father-in-law have. Trust me when I say that my father-in-law, a retired career Marine Gunnery Sargent, who has lived through Jim Crow and terrible discrimination in the military in Korea and Vietnam, is a push over who is easily convinced. He and the rest of my in-laws have made the struggle that black people had, and still have, personal. It's one thing to read about black history for a white person, but quite another to hear the personal accounts. I am amazed that they don't have hate in their hearts after what they have been through, and they have good reason not to trust in ANY politician, regardless of color.
But they believe in Bernie, if only because he has proven to them that he is sincere over these last many decades. The main thing that my father-in-law likes about Bernie is that he listened to what Black Lives Matter had to say about the dire need for criminal justice reform. It hadn't been a big part of his platform before he was confronted. He predicted that Hillary would blow it when her time came to be confronted, and his prediction came true in a rich white man's home where Hillary was doing one of many private fundraisers.
Black people, like any other distinct group of the electorate, are not of one mind. We all have a choice, but usually it is from a choice of candidates pre-selected by the big Donors. This election is different for both Party's. We have two candidates, one from each Party, who are not beholden to the Donor class. One is a hateful, racists, mysoginistic, greedy asshole, and the other is a humanitarian who has fought his whole life for equality for all as guaranteed in the Constitution! So far that guarantee hasn't been worth the paper it is written on, especially for black Americans! I don't have to be black to recognize this, just like Bernie has. Too many white people dont know and don't understand, that's for sure. Like Mitt Romney, who just will never be able to understand the 99%, because he has very limited exposure to regular folks, many white people will never understand how bad black people have always been treated in this country. The propaganda has them believing in hateful stereotypes. But not all of us fall for this because we either really know and are friends with many blacks, who open our eyes to the truth, or we figure it out from our own experiences and sense of fairness and justice. I believe that Bernie gets it from both!
This is a historic election for many reasons, not the least of which is Bernie's (and his supporter's) goal of ending the corruption of our election process and its resulting effect of ceding control of government to the Donor class! Only then can we end the hyper-partisanship and start to accomplish the things we need to do to obtain fairness and justice to our country and all of its citizens.
Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)You make the same mistake others do in thinking economic inequality and racial inequality are linked more than they are.
I think the point has been made here so many times that it is getting repetitious, but they are not linked the same way for black people as they are for white people.
Dustlawyer
(10,493 posts)However, while on that subject, the two are linked to the extent that with racial inequality in the justice system has given many young black men criminal records, which in turn make his economics very tough. He has trouble getting a decent job and gets stuck being poor with little to no opportunity to rise up. Economic enequality can cause discrimination that all poor people are subject to, being limited to only the areas of town where poor people live. The public schools in these areas are much worse than other areas.
I agree that they are two different things that have some elements that link them together to an extent.
Whether they have links or not, Bernie is addressing both. He may not initially have had a criminal justice plank in his platform, but after meeting and discussing the issues with Black Lives Matter he saw the need that they were talking about. A good politician listens to his/her constituents. He has done so and will continue to do so. Whether they are linked, not linked, that's not the issue. The issue is whether he has plans to do something to solve the problems, he does.
The text you highlighted is what needs to happen first. Nothing else can get past the Republicans until we fight and win Publicly Funded Elections. This would restore Representative Democracy and make our Representatives represent their constituents. Then we can pass criminal justice reform and economic reform policies. Hillary's incremental approach will not get things to where they need to be. It's the system that has been in place all of this time and we have been going backwards!
If I am not understanding the distinction that you are trying to make please explain, thanks.
steve2470
(37,456 posts)angstlessk
(11,862 posts)so I WILL have my voice known!
steve2470
(37,456 posts)BronxBoy
(2,286 posts)make your voice less known to us and more to your White colleagues who vote against their best interests..
Just saying.....
angstlessk
(11,862 posts)Bernie is NOT against black interests...he truly believes ALL folks should benefit from their employment...not by the color of their skin...but if prejudice happens...Bernie is against it.
Hillary is FOR private prisons that house mostly black prisoners...
shadowandblossom
(718 posts)Even if the only reason that motivates you to lay off is only practical, look at it this way, I don't think that strategy is helping BS get votes; I really don't.
JustAnotherGen
(31,681 posts)SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)It almost chased me, and I don't discount the possibility that it might do so yet.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)You would NEVER come up to me in public and demand a thing from me or any of us here.
angstlessk
(11,862 posts)I have confronted my co workers on being racist, only to have my car backed onto a dirt pile so it would not start....
I am not afraid to call a racist a racist...no matter what color they were!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)angstlessk
(11,862 posts)Loving vs Virginia...bet you would vote against it!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Are You saying I'm racist and would vote against my own damn grandparent getting married? Against my husbands mom and dad getting married. Do you even read what you write? Please just go
Do you feel nice and proud now?
Cha
(295,899 posts)NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)wildeyed
(11,240 posts)+1
stone space
(6,498 posts)AUTOMATED MESSAGE: You alerted on a post which was already alerted
Mail Message
On Sat Mar 19, 2016, 10:01 AM you sent an alert on the following post:
If you were a racist against me and my husband I sure as hell would
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1187&pid=46242
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
YOUR COMMENTS
> Loving vs Virginia...bet you would
> vote against it!
This poster would be well advised to avoid taking up gambling as a hobby.
Should probably avoid the AA group as well.
Please hide.
JURY RESULTS
Someone else already alerted on this post before you alerted on it, and only the first alert was sent to a Jury. A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of the post on Sat Mar 19, 2016, 04:21 AM, and voted 3-4 to keep IT. Please note that even though your alert was not sent to a Jury, it has been forwarded to the Administrators who review all alerts.
Thank you.
Digital Puppy
(496 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)We'll listen now.
Number23
(24,544 posts)forum and tell all the folks in there about themselves because SURELY my experience of being married to an Australian man for 8 years is EXACTLY THE FUCKING SAME THING as being an ACTUAL fucking Australian!
I feel soo.... liberated now!! Look out Oz forum, I'm about to break down everything that's wrong with Australian politics and views as only a black American woman can!!11
angstlessk
(11,862 posts)I have had my lilly white beliefs changed after I met him...I do now understand...if not able to assimilate that there is an enormous difference of treatment at EVERY level of social discourse.
I can give instances that brought me to understanding...but I can NEVER know the actuality of that racism..only on the surface...and I abhor that fact!
ismnotwasm
(41,916 posts)And you Bingo'd all over the place
bravenak
(34,648 posts)angstlessk
(11,862 posts)saying you don't have to says you cannot!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Please stop disrupting this group.
angstlessk
(11,862 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)angstlessk
(11,862 posts)I happen to be a white woman married to a black man
define disrupting!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)angstlessk
(11,862 posts)What does your being black know how white people feel? Unless we are together...we will remain apart!
Scandinavian countries have Social Democracies because they are together.
If black people and white people are AGAINST each other, we shall never have unity!
I do believe in Black studies,,and a very vigorous black history..cause blacks did a whole lot of progress for America...
and I want white folks to know that!
As a white woman married to a black man I can only do so much...Like voting for Bernie
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Like, with white, thanks.
angstlessk
(11,862 posts)IN AFRICA!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I am asking you to stop.
Response to bravenak (Reply #25)
Post removed
JustAnotherGen
(31,681 posts)And I'm telling you point blank - back down.
You can't pull the reverse racism card on me.
Product of a till death do you part 40+ year marriage (parents met in 67 and married in 69) and now married to an immigrant from Italy.
Bronx Boys post point blank said it wasn't about Clinton vs Sanders. The OP was about the prevalent attitude of "black Americans being too addled to make good political choices".
We didn't lead America to this place. The dominant culture did.
Married to a black man or not - don't come in here, derail threads, and make demands. Don't accuse bravenak of being racist or being against Loving V. Virginia. And that wasn't an item one could vote on (being for or against) it was a SCOTUS decision my parents ability to be married/have legal rights as a married couple in all 50 states.
And don't come back with a bunch of nonsense about Bill Clinton.
Only two Presidents have moved black people forward on the game board called America prior to January 2009 and they were Eisenhower and LBJ. FDR can shove off.
angstlessk
(11,862 posts)Funny how I thought I was trying to unite, but you are right...I was disruptive.
I have to reconsider how I think about race.
I have lived most of my life 30 years till I met my husband..in a white enclave...having no idea what a person of color has lived through.
I really have no idea.
Cha
(295,899 posts)exact opposite.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I think there's something wrong with Miss Ann
Coolest Ranger
(2,034 posts)to take you Touche attitude and leave now. The host warned you, now I'm warning you. I don't care if you are married to one of us or not. I'm getting pissed off at the condescending attitude I'm seeing from you
Number23
(24,544 posts)And that is truly saying something.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)That's certainly not the be-all end-all, but it's probably a good place to start for what is a fairly complex dynamic.
angstlessk
(11,862 posts)But it is on an upward climb...Bernie, on the other hand, will promote ALL sectors.
How many AA's are in construction, which the rebuilding of our infrastructure will boost employment
JustAnotherGen
(31,681 posts)More than doubled during this Administration and I live in a good neighborhood - so there's that. . .
Human101948
(3,457 posts)If you look at the change in the unemployment rate compared to when Obama took office, you can see that unemployment among Hispanics has, in fact, dropped the most. Unemployment among blacks -- always the highest -- has dropped the least.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/02/06/the-group-thats-seen-the-slowest-unemployment-recovery-under-obama-black-americans/
JustAnotherGen
(31,681 posts)I was laid off for 11 months after the Telecom bubble burst - so when the Housing bubble burst - I was prepared. Both happened under Bush's Watch - but Obama made sure people didn't get abandoned when he took office. He's a hero!
Regardless of who wins the White House I will be sad to see him go.
I destroy the Republican narrative about black women - and you should be proud to hold me up as a symbol of black American defiance against the Dominant Cultures ignorance. I'm the best thing going for the Democratic Party and I'm a symbol of America's ability to be great for black Americans when we realize we are on our own and this piece of shit country will throw us a bone then stab us in the back by making us promises about "equality" that always get reneged on.
Coolest Ranger
(2,034 posts)that you are married to one? God that is getting to be a tired of rebuttal of everything anyone black tries to post on this sight
JustAnotherGen
(31,681 posts)Is not a good trait these days evidently - so I just unleashed some arrogance up above!
Coolest Ranger
(2,034 posts)betsuni
(25,119 posts)wildeyed
(11,240 posts)So I can read it again later
The OP was good, but the comments are epic.
Lucky Luciano
(11,242 posts)In the name if god, guns, and gays! Morons.
Triana
(22,666 posts)brer cat
(24,401 posts)No matter how many times these points are made, it goes in and out the ears of those who should have stopped to listen.
I agree with all you posted, but I am just going to comment on one point. I am from GA and I often bristle at south-bashing threads because I have spent enough time elsewhere to know that we are not unique with regard to racial issues. Nevertheless, this comment is true:
" People in Appalachia or the deep South who instead of understanding that their plight in this country is the same as ours, chose to view us as less than human and the source of all of the countrys ills."
I know very few poor or lower middle-class whites here who do not fit that description, and they consistently vote republican (if they bother to vote at all) even though they are going to be royally screwed by the people they elect. Every republican running for office here brings out the dog whistles to make sure these folks know there is someone "lesser" to blame, lest they figure out that it is the republican policies that are holding them down just as they do black people and immigrants. These are the people we simply cannot reach when we try to educate the electorate, and they are going to vote overwhelmingly for Trump.
Middle and upper class whites are more diverse in their reasons for voting republican: lower taxes, smaller government, unrestricted military spending, as well as the hot buttons here in this land of evangelical xtians of abortions, gays, and women's rights. But you absolutely nailed it for the poorer folks. They are going to stick it to people of color every chance they get even though they would benefit by combining forces. It's a damned shame they can't see it.
BronxBoy
(2,286 posts)My screen name aside, I also reside in Georgia and I feel your pain.
brer cat
(24,401 posts)and it was truth! I hope you will post more often.
Depaysement
(1,835 posts)Good observation that it's white working people who are blocking a black-white working class coalition.
One tiny moan: the last paragraph reads like it's written by some white poser who went to Horace Mann.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Just cannot stop for one day, right?
Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)against their interests, and for being lectured to like children about it, and along comes a white person lecturing said black people about what they are doing wrong and if only they would listen to her, their lives would improve.
All along, white people in droves vote for and cause the existence of republican politicians who harm everyone, over and over and over again.
White privilege feeds the thought process of white people to not just think they know better than others but to always feel comfortable publicly expressing it. Imagine a black person telling white people how to vote.
Digital Puppy
(496 posts)Number23
(24,544 posts)Damn, I'd give $5 to see what dinner conversation must be like in that house.
On second thought, fuck that. You couldn't pay me to see that.
Digital Puppy
(496 posts)Is this the result of their favorite son, WillieT being kicked? Are they now blaming his racist behavior on the AA Forum community? Is this just another mirror of real life making the OP point...when things go bad for you personally, instead of reflecting on *your* actions, you blame the closest "other" in your life...
Yeah, it's Black folks' fault that Bernie is doing bad, or that the economy tanked and recovered slowly, or because Black folk wanted HRC to win that WillieT get's "silenced", etc.
Such B.S.
(Hats off to the Mods and Brave for their patience dealing with stupidity)
Number23
(24,544 posts)of that ignorant, offensive shit. He was an innocent little lamb until she got a hold of his green tea latte!
Doesn't matter that Willy is probably twice her age and is a grown assed man. It was bravenak and the AA forum that did it!!1 Really!!1one
Digital Puppy
(496 posts)Poor little thing...
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)Quayblue
(1,045 posts)wildeyed
(11,240 posts)Hardly any blacks did that. And that was when I bought a big clue about who was REALLY playing for Team Progressive. The majority of whites voted for Romney too. Even if you just pull out college educated whites, slightly more than 1/2 voted Romney. So yeah, it seems to me to that lecturing blacks on voting and self-interest is, um, counter productive and very hypocritical, to say the least
Lucky Luciano
(11,242 posts)I don't think anyone on du disputes that.
Dems to Win
(2,161 posts)I think there are a lot of good reasons to support Bernie, no matter one's skin color. And there are a lot of powerful reasons not to support Hillary, in my view.
But I don't think it is at all helpful to denigrate people who vote for a different candidate in the Democratic primary than I choose. Calling people stupid or sick doesn't win votes for my candidate and don't help us win in the fall.
The Congressional Black Caucus is the heart of the Progressive Caucus. No good can come of division between black voters and white progressives. I'm not going to criticize black voters for voting for Hillary, even as I despair the possibility she'll be the nominee.
wildeyed
(11,240 posts)We can get REALLY progressive legislation passed, and the coalition of later-day Dixiecrats and exurban white people won't be able to do shit. Might come sooner than I thought too, since that coalition is in the process of a spectacular super-nova. IF we can keep it together.... Once we own the process, THEN we can fight about details like public option VS. single-payer and have it be an argument that actually means something.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)You seem to be of the minority opinion on DU, among Bernie supporters.
And, I think this is at the root of Bernie's "Black problem" ... that Bernie supporters don't stand up to Bernie (at least on DU) in numbers that would indicate that the conduct is a bug, not a feature.
If the weight of Bernie supporters don't stand up to Bernie supporters, on behalf of Black folks, on matters this clear, doesn't it prove/buttress our distrust of white liberals/progressives?
http://leftycartoons.com/2008/07/10/a-concise-history-of-black-white-relations-in-the-united-states/
Dems to Win
(2,161 posts)Yes, I can understand black mistrust of white people. All white people.
As far as standing up for black people among the Bernie supporters, I have stated that I believe delegates elected by Democrats in Alabama are just as important as delegates elected by Democrats in Colorado. I don't buy into the theory, put forth even by Bernie's strategists, that Hillary's wins in the South aren't important. The people who voted for her do count, wherever they live. That's why our task is to get more pledged delegates in the contests going forward -- Bernie needs 58% of the remaining pledged delegates to get the majority of them.
There are a lot of threads, and I'm not a frequent poster. A few dozen voices dominate the discussion at DU, and I'm not one of them. I'm not one who jumps into the most contentious threads.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)So do I!
I certainly understand; but, how closely do you hold sometimey friends?
Showing up matters.
Rebkeh
(2,450 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)It drew out live and real time, examples for your very point!
ismnotwasm
(41,916 posts)betsuni
(25,119 posts)Number23
(24,544 posts)We vote (most of the time) with our entire communities in mind.
The idea that we are the problem and it's 90% white folks (including another DU legend MannyGoldstein) that voted for Reagan and support Trump shows how completely ignorant and divorced from reality too many on the "left" are. About too much.