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cbayer

(146,218 posts)
Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:44 AM Jun 2014

Racism Lives On Under the Cover of 'Religious Freedom'

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/06/american-racism-lives-on-under-the-cover-of-religious-freedom/372083/

A small portion of the population believes people should have the right not to serve black people—and even more believe the same thing about Jews, atheists, gays, and lesbians.

EMMA GREEN
JUN 4 2014, 7:00 AM ET


The Woolworth's lunch counter in Greensboro, North Carolina, where black students staged a sit-in on February 1, 1960. (Wikimedia Commons)

In most parts of America, "separate but equal" seems like the vestige of a bygone era. Segregated lunch counters, race-divided bathrooms, signs reading "whites only"—these are anachronisms of the 1960s, half a century into the country's past.

Except where they're not.

In an interesting new survey, the Public Religion Research Institute found that 10 percent of Americans believe business owners should be able to refuse to serve black people if they see that as a violation of their religious beliefs. This was pretty much the same across regions, too; the Northwest and the Midwest had slightly higher percentages than the South and the West. Gen X-ers, not old people, were most likely to agree—13 percent said they support the right to refuse. Men were slightly more likely to agree than women, and Catholics slightly more likely than Protestants. Hispanics were the biggest outlier by far: 18 percent agreed with the right to refuse service to blacks.

Ten percent of the population may not seem like a lot, but it points to how racism and segregation are still potent 50 years after the end of Jim Crow. In the past five decades since the peak of the civil-rights movement, some racial policies have changed—for example, workplace discrimination has been outlawed. That doesn't mean prejudice has disappeared; quite the opposite, actually. But this particular attitude, that outward racial discrimination is permissible because of a "religious belief," seems extreme and dated; these days, socially acceptable racism is a lot more subtle.

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AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
1. I'm actually torn on this one.
Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:54 AM
Jun 2014

I understand why Title II exists, and the 1964 CRA was needed, and follow-on legislation that bolstered it, etc.


But in today's climate, I am not broadly discriminated against by people. There aren't so many bigots that I could be locked out of every restaurant in my town, for instance.

So, my personal preference is, that if some proprietor of a business that I have entered hates atheists so much he or she would not do business with me except under duress of a law, I'd rather know. I'd rather they were just up front about it so I could leave. Vote with my dollars. Do business with people who aren't bigots.

Instead of sitting there wondering if I'm getting the 5-day old hamburger, and half as many refills as the guy next to me, etc.


I'm not advocating removal of title II, that's a rand paul stupidity campaign, but at a very basic level... I would rather know, than hide the problem. But again, the climate is different today. The stakes are lower. I have options and alternatives everywhere I look, and that is not true of other minorities in other time periods.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
2. While I understand the value of knowing up front if
Fri Jun 6, 2014, 12:04 PM
Jun 2014

one is going to be treated differently or discriminated against, I think it's more important to prevent it entirely or have sufficient penalties associated with doing it.

As you say, it was probably not more comforting for blacks to see a big sign saying they weren't welcome, but then, they generally didn't have the advantages held by the bulk of atheists (based on demographics). But there are atheists who live in areas where there may actually be some risks and no alternatives if they "come out".

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
3. Yeah, if I have to weigh it qualitatively even as a minority on religion, I am incredibly advantaged
Fri Jun 6, 2014, 12:19 PM
Jun 2014

White. Male. I don't have much to complain about. Society advances me every courtesy for the most part. Which is troubling in its own right.

I spent an hour trying to break into a U-Haul that was locked with the keys inside (Fuck U-Haul, they don't care at all if you need help with that) nobody called the cops on me. An hour. I'm clearly breaking into a locked vehicle in full daylight. (I was hoping a cop would swing by, could have used a slim-jim and I know they have them in their trunks. And there's another advantage. I look to the police as a source of HELP, without fear. That's not universal in the populace.)


On the other hand, I also want to know when XYZ business discriminates against other people. Because I will totally vote with my feet there too. And discrimination can be difficult to detect. It's not even clear if all people who render sub-standard service due to their prejudices, are even consciously aware of it. I grew up, not aware of this. (Again, an advantage. ) I was sick when I learned about this study. In this day and age. I had no idea. I felt so ignorant.
http://news.ncsu.edu/releases/wms-rusche-restaurants/


And then there's the structure of the businesses themselves.
http://rocunited.org/restaurants-and-race-discrimination-and-disparity-in-the-food-service-sector/
Though, that's not even the worst. Jury pools are the worst. Last time I served, the holding room for pools had about 250 people in it. The only black person in the room, was working behind the counter. I shit you not. Not a single one. In a room that, if it was a truly random representation of the population, should have contained approximately 40 black people. It was basically a sea of white people. I am not exaggerating at all.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
4. Recently (I think it was N or S Carolina), business owners started putting
Fri Jun 6, 2014, 12:25 PM
Jun 2014

up signs noting that they were affirmative and welcoming of all GLBT customers. I thought that was a great campaign that would shine a light on those that were not. That's the kind of activism that I think can be really effective.

I'm not sure what to make of your jury experience. If the population is 40% black, the turn out you witnessed is hard to explain. My experience has been different, as many privileged white people have ways of getting around the jury system, while most disadvantaged people do not. Could it have to do with voter registration?

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
5. Jury summons in this state is tied to driver's licenses.
Fri Jun 6, 2014, 12:43 PM
Jun 2014

It's about 12.6% of the population, I rounded it to 15 because that's self-reporting/census, and there are plenty of mixed racial heritage. So in a room of ~250 people, I would expect to see somewhere between 30 and 40. Just ballpark. Certainly not zero.

This might suggest something interesting about driver's licenses, or maintaining a stable residence to receive summons, or I don't know what, but the end result couldn't possibly be described as a 'jury of your peers', if one happened to be black. (The defendant in the case I went into voir dire for was black. The ENTIRE pool, including alternates/dismissals was white, with a couple Asians. And that's it.)



I agree, the positive 'we welcome' signs was a fantastic move, and you could tell it was very effective at changing the conversation, when the opposition jumped up and called it 'bullying' for businesses to do that.

Money talks. It really does. People vote with their wallets.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
6. From an practical standpoint I can almost understand, but from a legal perspective....
Fri Jun 6, 2014, 06:17 PM
Jun 2014

I'd rather we keep those laws in place, and enforce them, along with expanding those protections to LGBT people.

The fact is that while everyone has a right of free association, we do NOT have a right to run a business of public accommodation, for profit, and also be able to discriminate against people of protected classes.

Response to cbayer (Original post)

 

arcane1

(38,613 posts)
8. How does that work? If I serve a black person them I'm forced into servitude?
Fri Jun 6, 2014, 07:47 PM
Jun 2014

Sounds a bit hyperbolic to me.

LostOne4Ever

(9,288 posts)
9. Oh bullshit!
Fri Jun 6, 2014, 07:47 PM
Jun 2014

No one is being forced to do anything. That is a bunch of right wing bullshit.

If you don't want to do business with certain people don't be open to the public. If you want to be open to the public, then you don't get to discriminate. No one is being forced to be open and calling it involuntary servitude is right wing propaganda.

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