No, not all christians are intolerant and assholes, but these are and many more.

yep...it will be coming

they should reach out to the ACLU who might take up the case.

The hateful Christians in this country believe that the 1st Amendment freedom of (and from) religion only applies to them. They are in for a very rude awakening. As they continue to push all these rights and privileges for churches they are going to find they also apply to synagogues, mosques, temples, coven houses, etc. If Scientology can be classified as a religion that worship of a rock certainly can be.

They want it to only apply to Christians but that isn't what the Constitution says.

Why wouldn't they.

boldly defending the gates from those degenerate, demonic pagans. Their variety of Christianity is a fascist one.

or I'm sure someone will be quick to point via a litany of non-pertinent google links that show that someone, somewhere did something that was in some way related to politics. Or perhaps a re-hashing of the good old "The Salem Witch Burning were about property NOT religious fervor and hysteria so stop saying that"

that the internets are yours to award to anyone."

The internets belongs to all of us. You, me, believer, non-believer. I don't like your oppressive tactic of giving something to someone that is already theirs. It reminds me of when Columbus "gave" the Native Americans their land in the form of Reservations. Why do you hate Native Americans? Why do you hate Jesus?

You are awesome.

by friendly fire.

The problem with all this righteous indignation is that the righteously indignant hate pagans just as much as they do other believers.

The enemy of my enemy isn't necessarily my friend.

Last edited Wed Jun 18, 2014, 08:41 PM - Edit history (1)

In Ukraine, India, and so many other countries, the terrorism is about money and territory.

Religious, political and ideological explanations follow actions that could have been made sans any of those excuses. They are justifications for the acts and encouragement for warriors at a shallow thinking level, but they know deep down what they will get in the end even if they don't admit to themselves.

They will get more 'stuff' and say they deserved it and those they slaughter or oppress didn't deserve possession. I now see sexism and racism and all of it in that lens now.

I know non-believers and believers who made their decisions according to a view of the market place, be it marriage, jobs, party, then add on religion or political reasons to say they are beyond reproach after taking their pure materialist approach to all of those matters.

The 'because of religion' crowd, both supporters or detractors of religion, are dismissing intended, if not admitted, real world consequences underlying the words that seek to obscure the acts. This is where the focus needs to be and not the words that are being used to justify or demonize their actions.

JMHO.

which makes sense, as the gods religions worship are separate from and have no interaction with or influence on reality.

Religious charities are clearly good because of their religion, and no other reason.

The guy hadn't even filed for permits and had been told that he was in a zone that prohibited this when he went in to ask about it.

Hey, let's do something unique here and get the whole story before jumping on the hate bandwagon!

there are other churches in the same kind of zoning as the area the pagans wanted, and the word was already out that there would be no permits granted, even though (as you say) there hadn't even been a filing yet.

I can easily believe that the zoning thing is an excuse, and that an informal, prejudiced denial was issued as soon as they discovered the real nature of the temple. This is the same kind of thing that went on with the Muslim community center in NYC, or the Murfreesboro mosque.

He needs special permits for that and has never applied for them.

I think there is a lot more to this story and I wouldn't jump to just taking this guys word for it or reacting to the sensational headline.

You can easily believe whatever you like, I guess, but I would want more information before buying this. The guy could be a charlatan for all we know.

I will happily change my opinion if the guy genuinely turns out to be full of it. But the fact that the Mayor claimed that there was no permit they could apply for is a big giant red flag.

EDIT: From the Arkansas Times, courtesy of "The Wild Hunt", Mayor Mike Robertson's ideas on religion and politics:

“Please remember in the coming November election for leaders of this nation to elect only those who will stand firm doing the will of God and not their will. If placing God or the simple mentioning of his holy name in this newsletter is offensive to some; so be it. I do not and will not apologize, ever, for giving him the praise he is due for all that he has done for our blessed country. Not now, not ever in the future, should we turn our backs to our creator.”

That, and more context for the discussion between Dahl and the Mayor on zoning here:

http://wildhunt.org/2014/06/whats-happening-in-beebe-arkansas.html

Well done, Htom, well done.

May Baal, curse them!

I guess Christians are never in the wrong. Even when they're in the wrong.

“When they knew we were going to open a church, it wasn’t an issue,” he explained. “We explained to [the mayor] the house had a building that we could open the church in, and he had no problem.”

Dahl, however, pointed out that properties that were zoned R-2 were allowed to have places of worship and private nonprofits, according to the city’s code.

The station noted that other homes in the neighborhood were operating businesses at home.

-------

Reading is FUNdamental!

Everyone knows that christians in America don't have the kind of power necessary to oppress minorities.

And even if they did they certainly wouldn't use their influence to do so.

Haters.

and that the Lighthouse Christian College is directly next door to that

On the other hand, he seems to be seeking a permit for a "pagan temple and store"

He has some freedom of religion argument for the temple; the case for the store might be somewhat less convincing

on the temple, and I'll say a little prayer to Coyote that Dahl's temple also is awarded legal fees and damages. Clear discrimination there.

The shop may be another issue, though it seems from the KARK site that there was already a shop on the property. If that's the case, the city's position will be completely undercut.

The press coverage I've seen merely says ... Several home businesses operate on the stretch of road where Dahl lives. While home occupation is allowed there, selling things isn't ...

Home businesses are often not subject to much code restriction, when the activity doesn't affect the character of the neighborhood. For example, someone running a small mail-order business, or a small on-call plumbing service from their home, won't be affecting the neighbors much. A successful retail store might affect the character of the neighborhood. It might not help him legally, if he's already running a retail store on the property without a permit

Examination of the property by Google Earth suggests there is a building there that might at one time have been a country store or a local church meeting house. This probably wouldn't help him much, since existing uses are often only temporarily granted variances by grandfathering when zoning laws become more restrictive

Which is why the first thing his attorney will tell him is to file the paperwork. And I agree that a shop could well be more of a problem than many home businesses. The only times my neighbors are even aware of my own is when I load up my work for a show. (Or when I come to the door with paint or pastel all over me.)

100% agreement with his beliefs, but I don't have to be. He's not the sharpest tool in the tool box, and my personal first question has been, has he filled out the paperwork? Has he filed with County & SoS? There are some rules in Ark. about establishing a church but not many. And you can have a gift store in a church - which doesn't pay sales or income taxes.

From what we are understanding (*some* pagans in Ark., not all by any means) is that they weren't allowed to fill out the paperwork, why bother, when they were pre-denied. And no, paperwork is not available to d/l on internet tubes.

Again, hearsay, but I was told today that he finally has contacted the ACLU. He is an Obama hater and I quit following him on FB because of his screeds. Someone must have woken him up about actually contacting a lawyer.

So, some of us are going to the city council meeting to see what is up - do not want to get embarrassed by automatically jumping in on pagan discrimination when it could be totally something else.

One of the biggest problems he is having is the "lighthouse church" has installed a lighthouse that shines directly into their windows. Supposedly, in a college town, there is no breaking the peace law - yeah, sure, right. It seems(!) the cops are part of this church and sit outside his home on a daily basis for intimidation purposes.

We'll see...

It is a privilege to get some first hand information, because what little media info there is is really being hyped up and seems possibly unreliable.

I hope you will bring an update.

I think there is general agreement here that if this couple is being discriminated against because their beliefs are different, that is wrong and merits strong support.

But I'd like to know what I'm supporting before I take that road.

that everyone is very confused. There will be a segment on the local ABC channel at 6 p.m. CDT - http://katv.com and supposedly will be streaming the segment about the problems they are having. Seeker Temple has got the PR machine running here. Fingers crossed that Pagans don't come out of it with egg on our face - it's been known to happen.

It's going to be tough to be patient and wait for Monday.

I'm not a lawyer but it might depend on whether he's trying to use part of his property for church services, for a home business, or as a retail outlet

"Pagan Temple and Store" doesn't immediately suggest that the primary purpose is religious; the link on his website to Temple leads to a site search engine with "sort by price" options; and the link to Services, rather than informing about religious service times, leads to a page offering fee-based "personal, marrage or family" Counseling, House Cleansing "from unwanted spirits", Tarot Reading, and Water Witching. The link on his website to Teachings leads to a page I found completely uniformative: it seems dashed out rather quickly, and contains a fair quantity of such anodyne pablum as "We must work to seek out teachers" -- and it doesn't do much to explain the Temple's apparent interest in yoga or why their store sells Buddha statues

If he wants to claim a religious or nonprofit exemption for his sales activities, he might have to show the sales are to people whose primary object is to donate to the Temple, or the primary object of the sales is to provide Temple members with objects (such as bat's blood and graveyard dirt) necessary to their religious practice, or that the sales are irregular; if he runs a for-profit business under the guise of a church gift-shop, I'd expect he'll eventually be shutdown

I wouldn't expect him to have many problems if he simply wants to run an internet-based mail-order pagan-supply company from his home. On the other hand, if he wants to turn a building on his property into a retail outlet, with signage and parking, where people can shop for pagan-themed bumperstickers, clothing, jewelry, CDs, andmugs, then zoning is a legitimate consideration. I don't know how zoning works in Beebe. Where I live, people are free to seek a zoning variance or a change in zoning for a property: IIRC this requires some notices published in a local paper and then a public hearing at one of the usual scheduled meetings of the council or commission; and anyone can signup to speak on the proposal

I can't understand why he insists on "Temple and Store" unless he's hoping to run a for-profit business under the guise of a non-profit religious organization. Much of what he offers -- say, Go green with this tote bag, great for shopping, going to the gym, yoga class, or taking wherever you travel -- seems not to be necessary to a religious practice. The home page says Seekers Temple can provide the items shown in appreciation for your donations, but the pricing seems roughly retail, and there's a shipping charge. Nonprofits, that I've worked with, have sometimes offered gifts ("For a $50 donation, we'll send you a free durable-mesh reusable grocery bag&quot , but the gift is always slight compared to the donation and clearly shows the primary object of the exchange is donation to the organization

exclusive. Hence - coffee shops, bookstores, etc. in mainstream churches. It's keeping the money at home and with the "proper people." The only difference with ST is that I don't think they will use the money for mission purposes. . Believe it or not, there is a group of us doing almost this same exact thing but have lawyers involved in the whole process about a church/temple and selling of wares. Seems you can pretty much get away with anything if you put 'church' in the title.

==

I am not sure why you are nit-picking on the items for sale (tawdry as they are): Graveyard Dirt is a legitimate item in Hoodoo/Rootworker Practices and believe it or not, there is a history of Hoodoo up on that area. Very famous (within the Rootworking community) of a practitioner in that area in the 1930s. People came from all over the South to see her.

He/Temple may not need - and I certainly hope not - Graveyard Dirt but some people do for their practices. Along with Bat's Blood, Angel Water, Coon Dong, Lucky Hand Root, etc. Lots of info here - http://luckymojo.com - about what these items are used for. Yes, these are items that scare the bejubus out of people and gives Pagan's a bad name in general and makes us all to be demon practitioners.

Hopefully, in my lifetime, I shall never *need* Graveyard Dirt, but do I know how to use it? Yep, I do. I studied Hoodoo for awhile because it is indigenous to the US and the South. I wanted something a little closer to home, so to say. But Hoodoo is not for me. It is not for me to judge another's practice, but for me, it is too vindictive.

The Buddhist/Tibetan items - and? so? what? I have Buddha, a Kwan Yin and a Ganesha in my home but am I Hindu or Buddhist? No, but I like Them, their energies and goodness - their qualities. They are helpers on this plane of existence for humankind and have qualities that we should encourage in others.

Not every Goddess and God has such qualities/energies and have had many discussions about honoring (or worshiping) chthonic beings today because they are from another time that we will not and do not understand. I am of the mind, no we shouldn't, and honor only those that have had continual contact with humans, such as Isis, Thoth, Hecate, etc. They have always been honored in lodges and circles throughout our history and are generally considered "safe."

==

ST has been open in another town in the same country for 5 years. Surely if he has been open this whole time that he has done the proper paperwork. He/They didn't get a bug up their butt and just open a store. I am "assuming" that since they moved just down the road that the same laws would apply in part of the county as another. Who knows, he hadn't even unpacked boxes yet before this all started and I think it started in February of this year. And a city can give you the run around for 6 months before you get pissed and start bring in the media.

I - and other - are posting on their FB about us coming up and I want him to sit down and explain to us all the particulars in person. Anther HP who has gone through the same thing in another town in Ark. and won will be there for guidance if he accepts it.

Contrary to the view often expressed in this forum, you can't just conduct business-like activities and claim exemption from the usual laws, such as tax laws, by declaring yourself a church

This is an easy lawsuit to win

them from getting their shop. Seems like they don't believe in the first amendment too much.

I would say a lawsuit should be considered by the temple.

zoning no store.

if the other churches right next door sold things? I know it's not a Catholic church next door, but, say, they sold rosaries and "I love Jesus" shirts and whatever else next door but won't allow him a store. Is that going to be a first amendment, equal protection, or something else? I really don't know, but it feels wrong.

Here's the Arkansas statute 5-71-209 on Harassing Communications: it makes it illegal to pester folk by phone

*Everyone is free to worship jeebus in his own way.

Hello all,

I am not sure if ya'll are aware, but I had never meet Bert Dahl, HP of Seekers Temple, nor his wife before yesterday. My husband and I wanted to find out for ourselves what was going on. We took another friend with us, who wants us to help her establish a Temple in LR, and she has her Press Credentials, which she wore.

First off - good people. We drove up to their house and were welcomed heartily though none of us had ever met; even offering us food, though it looks like they have a big house with lots of mouths to feed.

Second off - O.M.G. on the lighthouse the church built across the street! Jeez, this thing looks like the bottom of a real lighthouse on the coast of New England. It is HUGE! Looks to be about the size of a 2 story house, octagonal, with large windows on each side of the walls. It can be seen from the freeway a mile away! Thank goodness ALL the neighbors had complained about it and they have finally pointed the light up over the houses, but it still hits drivers when they are going down that major street. I can't believe they have been allowed to get away with that light! You'd think the FAA would get involved with a light like that.

I started in with the questions to S.T. - IRS paperwork - yes; State paperwork - yes; Non-Profit Status paperwork - yes. They had just moved in February from another town in the same county and had had no problems whatsoever there. Taxed filed and paid. I asked about selling goods as a church/temple and it was stated to me that a church can do that as along as all the money goes back into church, but not towards salaries, etc. They keep separate books on the church/temple and their personal funds and do not co-mingle. They have been doing this for 6 years come December. I was satisfied that they aren't a fly-by-night operation and knew what they were doing.

More cars started arriving and there was quite a group of people there. My DH & I kept saying we need to go up there, we may not have a seat, though it was 5:15 p.m. Finally, we all caravan to City Hall and it was amazing looking down the parking lot at everyone coming out of their cars. Word had gone out to covens/groups to dress nicely. No babies or other distractions. I was the worst one dressed and I had on a nice silk blouse and shorts. Everyone else came in suits and dresses - for Beebe nonetheless. We looked just like anyone else, in fact, the only the thing that separated us was jewelry and even that was small and tasteful. I think that fact shocked them - we're just like you, just on a different spiritual path. There is no difference between us and we were born here too.

We walk in and almost all the chairs were taken up - by their kids and babies. Good grief! I turn to Anita and said, you know, when I was growing up, kids *never* got the chairs if there was an adult standing. Ever. She said the pentecostal church just wanted to make sure they stuff the chairs with their people. Anita & I found a chair, but most of our group didn't. Lauren had her press pass, so she got to sit up front with TV and newspaper people.

The meeting finally got started and the mayor stated that it was the most people ever at city council meeting. We then had to sit through a 5 minute sermon/prayer led by the Chief of Police. Good grief! Because of all the people, they put the Ordinance Change for Seekers Temple first in the order of business. First the mayor states that the Zoning Officer had final say, though the mayor sent a letter to the Zoning Officer, telling him not to give ST any re-zoning paperwork and to just outright deny anything that ST wants to do. I think that letter is here in one of the many links of the story. The mayor then offers a private meeting with the city attorney, Zoning Officer, and the Dahl's and their counsel. After they left the meeting, we were pretty much asked to leave if we weren't going to the 4th of July picnic. Their church and our group left the meeting.

We went outside and I grabbed my notebook and pen and passed it around asking everyone to sign it so ST will have an idea how many people showed up in support. Gary, a HP from Jonesboro, really made sure everyone signed it. We had 42 Adults sign the sheets of paper. How's that for not really trying?

The pentecostals got in a circle and prayed and we got in a circle and sang, though one of the HP from Memphis changed the frickin' words of song! Only 4 people from their group really knew the words!

About this time, us milling around waiting for ST to come from their meeting, along with Channel 4, it started storming! Wow! That was some freaky lightening. Bert Dahl came out from the meeting and they had recorded it all, and from his perspective, it is discrimination and a civil rights standing, because of what the city attorney stated - that no one in Beebe both lived in a church and they had to be separate buildings with separate utilities, etc. AND he had to have a paved parking lot, AND a separate address, on and on.

I suggested since the lot for sale right next door to ST is zoned commercial that he set up a crowd sourcing and let everyone donate to that so he can just buy that land and put up a decent structure on it, and there ain't a damned thing the city can do then.

I am completely satisfied with Seekers Temple and what they are wanting to do. The only reason they moved to Beebe is because his customer base is there and they finally saved up the money to sell their place in El Paso (AR) and move to Beebe - it is a college town and the kids wanted a place in town to shop for supplies rather than running down the highway for incense, etc. The mayor welcomed them until he found out they are Pagan, then all this starts to fly. The only reason they went to the media is because they were denied at every turn in talking to city hall and getting the zoning regulations (denied by that office) and the initiate the paperwork for rezoning (denied by that office). So they took to the media simply to get heard by City Hall.

Bert Dahl, in spite of his anti-Obama screeds, seems to be a nice dude. Almost a disconnect there. THIS is the person who posted all that stuff on their FB page? Weird...

Your Ace Reporter,

Hestia

a segment ran on http://arkansasmatters.com and you can see how filled up the city council meeting space was.

Very cool to get that level of detail and learn a bit about the persons involved.

for keeping us informed.

still more to find out. We looked so good last night - all professionally dressed and polished, not scruffy or slouchy. It was a mixed of mid-50s to early 20s, with one over 70 year old was there. I stated to someone (can't remember who) that it was great for the younger ones to see a turn out like this - adults who didn't act the fool standing up for something they lovingly and adamantly believe in - which is just as strong as any other path a person walks. It can be done and we're pretty polite people to begin with.

This is a You're Welcome to All Who Posted Thank You's. And I would to say Thank You for being so supportive in giving Seekers Temple the benefit of the doubt.

There is a huge lot for sale right off their driveway that is for sale and is zoned commercial. I and several other people have suggested crowd sourcing for at least part of that lot (if it can be broken up) and a nice building and all the faults that the city is bringing up wouldn't be an issue. We'll see. It'll take awhile but it could be done.

It was fun too because I got to see people I haven't seen in a decade even though we live in the same state. It was fantastic to see them again and they give good hugs; and of course all the new people and covens I was introduced to.

Y'all have a great night, sleep tight, and don't let the bed bugs bite. (Old saying, not implying anything)

Word can spread through social media.

Nothing beats a first hand report and I for one am incredibly grateful to you for providing it.

I hope he is about to get the legal assistance that he so clearly needs and make a major case out of this.

You are the best!

Your first-hand reporting really clarifies the issues. I think this is a case the ACLU might take.

Thanks for the added info. This really is an interesting story, and hopefully the ST will quickly win any legal battles ahead and will be able to have their temple/church/store without having to deal with all this crap!

You may want to double-check the nonprofit claim: I made several efforts last week to locate evidence Seekers Temple was nonprofit but did not find the organization on any of the lists I checked

Here's a better link for the Arkansas Matters city-council meeting story:

Pagan Priest Weighs Options after Beebe Zoning Code Controversy
Marci Manley
06/24/2014 05:24 PM
06/24/2014 06:26 PM
http://www.arkansasmatters.com/story/d/story/pagan-priest-weighs-options-after-beebe-zoning-cod/12187/UEJ2WNOvKEWaWb985l8njg

someone here in LR had tried to do a search also and came up blank. Now that the excitement has boiled down, yes, we/whomever will ask again. I feel wrong though for demanding, so to say, for this info -- I mean, you know, who the heck am I to ask for this info? If it were me, I sure wouldn't want to but most likely would to a responsible person. I would set up an LLC and offshoot non-profits off of the LLC.

can provide the info

Merry Meet