Religion
Related: About this forumAtheists, the “Ultimate Other” in Turkey
Tolga Inci, one of the founders and interim chair of the Atheism Association, outside the associations office in Istanbul. Credit: Nick Ashdown/IPS
By Nick Ashdown
ISTANBUL, Jun 24 2014 (IPS) - Being an atheist isnt something you can easily express in Turkey, says Sinem Köroğlu, a member of the Atheism Association, the first official organisation for atheists in the country. Its becoming more difficult with the current government as well, she adds.
Set up earlier this year in Istanbul, the aim of the Atheism Association is to give a voice and support to non-believers in Turkey, a country not known for its fondness of atheists.
Politicians in the religious conservative Justice and Development Party (AKP) have been making hostile comments about atheists. Last year, a high-ranking member of the party, Mahmud Macit, used Twitter to attack spineless psychopaths pretending to be atheists, saying that they should be annihilated. Prime Minister Erdoğan himself has also insulted protesters by calling them atheists and terrorists.
Its just really degrading, says Köroğlu, speaking from the groups small office in Istanbuls cosmopolitan Kadıköy neighbourhood, known as a stronghold of secularism. But she says politicians comments reflect the larger views of Turkish society. This is the mentality of the majority of Turkish people, and we need to break this.
http://www.ipsnews.net/2014/06/atheists-the-ultimate-other-in-turkey/
xfundy
(5,105 posts)almost always use or hide behind religion to do it.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)as the member I responded to said is "almost always" the case?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Little more than word substitution. The Party for the Faith.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)So you are saying that he substituted the theocracy of atheism for theism?
This seems to be a very silly line of reasoning.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Perhaps you can point me to the section about de-emphasizing or removing 'atheist theocracy' post-Stalin? Or allowing religious freedom, post-Stalin.
Oh right, that had nothing to do with the horrors under his rule.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)That's why I found your comment about him replacing one theocracy with another so odd and confusing.
So did Stalin use or hide behind religion in order to control a populace, as the member I was responding to stated "almost always" is the case?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)here's a longer explanation.
http://infidels.org/kiosk/article/communism-is-religion-238.html
cbayer
(146,218 posts)and atheism isn't.
Sorry, but neither communism nor atheism are religions. That article is a pile of bogus horseshit and the author an authority on absolutely nothing.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)according to the associated doctrines, such as secular humanism.
I suspect Stalin's rationale was along the lines of 'why attribute all this to god, instead of me?'. It's a perfect template.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)If we can call anything we want a religion, then I guess the member statement is correct.
Because something is always used to control the populace and if religion can be anything, then religion is always the thing controlling it.
The proper name would be atheistic religion I guess, that is religion without a god, I guess.
Can I use this argument in the future when talking about other groups without gods?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)It said 'almost always'. And there were three objections to that specified, and I pointed out a problem with only one of the three for a reason. Communism under Stalin can easily be compared to a theocracy, for a variety of very obvious reasons. Note that I never said 'communism writ large'. I don't feel China's implementation of it constitutes a theocracy, or near-spectrum theocracy.
It seems sometimes that you only read what you want to read.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I was illustrating that there have been major moves to control huge swaths of populace where religion was not used or hidden behind to do so. That eliminates the "almost always".
Full stop.
Whether you want to "compare" it to a theocracy or not, Stalin did not use or hide behind religion to control the people.
Yes, AC. I only read what I want to read.
Or perhaps i respond to knee jerk reactions which are ludicrous in ways that you don't like.
Who knows.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)The two that I DID NOT object to, are fair objections.
That in no way invalidates 'almost always'.
Stalin copied, verbatim, the tactics, methods, and means that religions were using in his timeperiod to do the same. He simply supplanted 'god' with 'the party', with himself at the head.
Surely you do not discount his contemporary, 1944 Japanese Emperor Hirohito, as clearly just a man, a self-important mammal, rather than a god/emperor, and even worse, a man/position abused by military figures to enact certain policies by proxy, as an example of religion being used to hide motives, and control people? Under the hood it was more of a cult that brought about horrible things like fanatical suicide/kamikaze attacks, etc. Not resembling it's public face at all. Still, it fits the 'almost always' use above.
Communism under Stalin (And not outside that period) was much like Imperial Japan of WWII.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)most strife throughout history - religion or not religion".
It's useless and tedious. But I will object when someone takes the position that it "almost always" something when it's clearly not.
It's almost always power and greed, whatever drives that.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Because if you're going to object, you should probably be willing to prove it, or at least point out metrics that show they haven't proven their assertion.
Because you've done nothing to show that the use of 'almost always' is incorrect.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)It's too multifactorial and the discussion always just leads to some impossibly stupid circle jerk.
I will object all I want and feel no need to prove anything that can't be proven. Plus, as is repeated over and over and over again here, it is the person making the positive assertion on whom the burden of proof lies, not the objector.
Bye now, you are irritating me and I am in the middle of nicotine withdrawal.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Which seems well within the scope of 'almost always'.
One could ADD more exceptions to the list, if one wanted to prove the 'almost always' scope is incorrect.
rug
(82,333 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)Htom Sirveaux
(1,242 posts)Playing power games by demonizing outsiders is immoral and shaky ground to build a society on, and not what religion should be about. The whole idea of special revelation to specific individuals, as I see it, is that God doesn't actually endorse the present world of authoritarianism run amuck. If God did, there would be no need to say anything to anyone, because the "blessing" of authoritarians would be plain from their success.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I'm allergic to drones.
rug
(82,333 posts)Fascist assholes should not be indulged with wry sarcasm.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)probably hard to understand.
rug
(82,333 posts)It has its uses certainly but it won't do the job.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Only laughter can blow to rags and atoms at a blast. Against the assault of laughter nothing can stand.
-Samuel Clemens
rug
(82,333 posts)The essence of fascism is to make laws forbidding everything and then enforce them selectively against your enemies. ― John Lescroart, A Plague of Secrets
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Because wow.
rug
(82,333 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)Well, watch out for drones.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)"Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own."
- The Battle of the Books, preface (1704)
cbayer
(146,218 posts)While there are an assortments of religious traditions tolerated in some parts of Turkey, it does not surprise me that the non-religious face a different plight.
Istanbul is clearly the place to start.
JNelson6563
(28,151 posts)I fear for this brave soul and his known associates.
Julie