I personally think those who are rich should give to charity but how much is not my place to say.

I don't.

Actually, I'm on the Republican retirement plan--die as soon as my money runs out.

un christ like in another

wouldn't you say?

pat robertson while on the tail end of a 3 day bender of alcohol and cocaine.

Over the years I have participated in christianity in extreme ways, years of reading and hundreds of hours in church.

Now, according to Warren you tend to have a position here that is more political than anything...

The religion forum here is similar to me as the gun forum, the attitudes of some NOT ALL, and I am just looking forward to the day when liberals all agree they have no use for superstition or guns.

You said that you don't claim to be a christian then act unchristianly. I guess this is a judgement that you pass on others, but it wouldn't apply to you because you don't claim to be a christian in the present.

Sorry that Robertson was able to seduce you during a binge, but your touches with extremism help me understand why you are now swinging the other way.

Warren who? My position is most definitely political, that is why I am on this site.

I'm looking forward to the day when liberals all agree that religious belief is a personal matter and no one should be condemned for either believing or not believing.

Kind of like where we have gotten with sexuality.

You decide.

But then, who among us is Jesus?

to me personally or something else?

It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven.

HOw about instead of all, half...

I may use some of Jesus's teachings as guideposts, but not as commands.

My father gives most of his money away. He believes that if he truly ever needs something, it will be there for him. I doubt that he feels commanded, but I think he does feel compelled.

What gave you that idea, by the way?

so I guess you assume that I must be one of the bobble-headed religious people that you mock.

This says much more about you than it does about me, doesn't it?

comment on OPs like this one. I am a Christian but I recognize you do not have to be one to be able to understand what Jesus said. I never make the mistake of assuming that because one knows what he/she is talking about that means they believe in it.

I welcome all views.

to make these kind of assumptions. 30 years ago if you expressed any support of equal treatment for gays (not even including marriage) co-workers would often assume you were gay, or at least view you "with suspicion." I think these co-workers could not imagine why someone who wasn't gay would support gay rights. I assume it still goes no to some extent, but not like it was back then.

The poster is indeed one of the two most prolific theist posters in the religion forum but maintains that she is "agnostic". The poster then delights in springing the "who me?" trap on the unsuspecting.

There are a number of anti-atheists who like to do the bait and switch number, sorry you had to experience that.

You better tell all my friends and family and the atheists that I have a good relationship with here, because I think they should be warned.

By the way.

A doesn't like B.

B is an atheist.

A is anti-atheist?

Er, no.

Let's use a little of that sacred reason and rational thinking here and not draw entirely illogical conclusions just because some doesn't personally feel fondly about you.

Okay?

sacred reason and rational thinking. Atheism just means you don't believe in god - you can use as much irrational thinking as you need.

This is the second time he has called me an anti-atheist and the second time I have pointed out the complete lack of logic in his conclusions.

Must of missed the critical thinking class.

When did sin ever have a dollar figure attached to it?

You can be guilty of sinful greed/covetousness without any particular amount of assets... and you can be quite wealthywealthy without committing sin.

There are also plenty of scenarios where 400k isn't very much.

Cue the Lutherans. In 3... 2... 1...

The current advice is to spend no more than 4% of your invested money so as to hope not to run out before you die. 400k then can be expected to generate a whopping $16,000/year. That's not a lot.

So no, it's not a sin to have that much and not give at least half of it away.

Unless other religions say the same, i dont know

Can you answer the question for yourself or not?

any christian?

That there is no such place.

Besides that one, is it your interpretation that the Walton family, with billions who give away almost nothing to help people, are they good christians?

He nowhere says that rich people can't get into heaven.

I express no opinion on someone else's eternal destination based on my opinion of their actions... not just because it isn't my place to judge... but because those actions aren't the determinate of that destination (according to the Christian theology)

wasnt that JEsus?

Now he didnt say NO rich people could, of course, but how many camels can fit thru the eye of a needle?

But he nowhere said that they can't get to heaven.

The theology here is quite clear. You can't get yourself into heaven. You can't earn your way into heaven... or buy your way in. Wealth can get you almost anything you want in this world... but doesn't get you even an inch closer to heaven.

Regarding wealth, since that's what's being discussed in this subthread, he does say something that a wealthy person can do to get into heaven:

Matthew 19 (bolding added by me):

Because the passage from Matthew I quoted is explicitly addressing more than just the one man, at least in this translation.

For example:

to justify to themselves why it's OK to have lots of possessions, etc. Jesus only said it was "hard" and by that they think he means only rich people who love their money more than anything else won't get into heaven and you see the good folks love Jesus more than all their stuff, so you see it's no problem for them. Ta da!

passing through needle's eye.

Hard.

I suppose you could puree the whole camel first, or use a 400-foot long needle. . .

Jesus' message here is clearly "die poor or go to hell."

The apologists have been spinning this forever, presumably in the name of biblical "scholarship."

You continue to make a false assumption about me. Why is that? Does who I really am not fit with your agenda or something?

I'm so naive and gullible sometimes. I thought you came in to ask a sincere question about wealth and the poor and what the right thing to do is.

But I fear I was wrong. You are the guy that equates belief in god to belief in leprechauns and makes other disparaging remarks about religious believers.

So, let's be honest. What is your point here?

my point is religion causes way more harm than the good it does, MUCH MORE , so I want to point out that unless you are about the very best a religion has to offer, then you are contributing to the very worst

But then I might be making assumptions about your agenda. Why don't you clarify it for me.

so you are an atheist, i never would have guessed

jewish? muslim?
















my point is religion causes way more harm than the good it does, MUCH MORE , so I want to point out that unless you are about the very best a religion has to offer, then you are contributing to the very worst
https://twitter.com/DidTheyLetUVote



I probably shouldnt post in the religion forum, last time I did it came to no good.

I am just so sick of religion

religious believers simply because you are personally sick of religion.

Maybe you should open your heart and mind and learn a few things about what progressive/liberal religious people do and why you are really on the same team with them.

Just a thought.

I am sincerely and honestly surprised that she is not religious.

I asked this question because christians in the whole irritate the shit out of me, especially rightwingers, not that there are any here but I wanted to know what the answer was.

Is that wrong?

things religious, except of course when she has decided that it is ok to mock religious things, like for example creationists and Mormon beliefs. One of her favorite activities is to welcome new posters here who are not clearly theists by attacking them relentlessly for posting things she disapproves of.

I was getting confused as hell, sincerely so.

That can be so confusing.

If your point is that religion causes more harm than good, why don't you just cut to the chase instead of setting this lame trap in which you hope to draw in christians so you can disparage them.

You are basically saying that if you, as a christian, are not just like Jesus then you are contributing to the worst of religion, which, frankly, is a large pile of steaming horse shit.

I see you sport a GLBT flag as your avatar. There is a great thread in here right now about religious leaders who are fighting for GLBT civil rights. You might want to check it out. Would love to know your feelings about it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218173123

Also, check out the NALT project.

http://notalllikethat.org

Actually, I don't think you will check out either. It might disrupt your preconceived and obviously rigid ideas about religion and religious people, sort of like I just did, and we wouldn't want that, would we?

constantly n religion topics so i made an assumption'

It wasnt a trap, it was a sincere question for christians...


I edited so you wouldnt have to go look around for my other answers to your questions

Do religious people do good things?

All the time, some do, I stand by my statement that the good religion (any and all religions) do is far outweighed by the harm

But I apologize again, even here in this thread you are defending religion so I thought you were religious

I would not be embarrassed to be a religious person, but you think you would be insulting me by making that assumption. That is all on you.

You are stating a belief (that the good religion does is far outweighed by the harm) which is based on faith and not fact. It is your opinion. My opinion is that it does both good and harm and I am absolutely defending religion when it does good.

If your question is sincere, then stand back and let people respond without immediately pushing them into a corner that says "bad christian".

Sorry to be so rough on you, but this really pushes my buttons. I am embarrassed that I fell for it.

or are not religious and if so what kind.

Why is that?

don't insinuate that I am avoiding the question for some reason.

I am a nonbeliever, probably most accurately labeled as an agnostic. I also like the term apatheist, in that I don't know if there is a god or not, and I don't care if there is a god or not, and nothing would change for me personally if there were or were not a god.

I support the good that religious people and groups do and stand up against the bad, particularly the religious right in the US.

I feel that religion is used as a wedge issue within the democratic party and those that are either anti-religion or anti-atheist feed into that. It prevents us from seeing our allies and unnecessarily creates counter-productive divisions.

For these reasons, I am strongly opposed to anti-theism, which is why I am reacting so strongly to your thread here.

Any other questions?

one, I guess I dont have the same positive feeling about religious people that you do.

You see to me religion on the whole and in many cases Christianity, causes so much grief, suffering etc., that the good it does better outweigh the bad, and it never does as far as I am concerned.

if your point is not to alienate those within the party, i guess that is a righteous goal, especially if it results in NOT getting SC justices who outlaw abortion thus killing thousands

about religious people.

I think your mind is closed but I wish for you that you will set your prejudices aside and really take a look at what good is being done.

Of course I will stand against any courts who try to outlaw abortion, as will the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice

http://rcrc.org

Catholics for Choice

http://www.catholicsforchoice.org

The Religious Institute on Sexual Morality, Justice and Healing

http://www.religiousinstitute.org

Now, how about we work together instead of driving away people just because they hold a different position when it comes to a belief in god?

a nightmare.

Not sure why we need to create more tolerance for religion to do that, but then one of my favorite people on the planet is Mark Thompson or Matsimela Mapfumo of Sirius Left radio and he is a christian preacher about as religious as you can get and as left as you can get and as Black as you can get...

So there are some that I like, christians that is, not Black people

I like ALL Black people, I think...well not clarence thomas or ben carson maybe..

I most definitely do not like all religious people. Not by a long shot.

You are likely to get support for what you are doing here and will find some who will promote you and attack me for challenging you.

But I think you are wrong in what you are doing. I think you would probably really like most of the religious people on this site and the supporters of religion who post in this group. Perhaps before you proceed with disparaging them, you might get to know them.

Frankly, I think the standards for charity should be about the same whether they are guided by religion or not. Give what you can when you can.

Someone recently posted a wonderful Audrey Hepburn quote that I would like to place here:



I hope you keep this in mind as you decide for yourself who I am.

FWIW, I think you managed this thread really well and I toast you for doing that. It has turned out to be interesting and enlightening.

You yourself posted that.

You forgot this, from the same font of wisdom:

"You can always tell what kind of a person a man really thinks you are by the earrings he gives you." 

Does this also fit into your personal philosophy?

Explain.

Why would that be? Isn't it charming? I suggest that given that you are now being attacked for assuming that one of the most prolific theistic posters in the religion forum is in fact "a believer" is a very good reason to withdraw the apology.

Are you saying she is actually religious, but pretends not to be so as to further arguments somehow?

And note she doesn't explicitly claim to be a non-believer either, she claims to be in some squishy agnostic realm between belief and non-belief. However, whatever her actual beliefs are, she is one of the two most prolific theistic posters here, so her actual beliefs are irrelevant, her political position in this forum is that of a defender of religion.

much harm, one would think one would want to resolve these things, not contribute to them.

But I will be honest, unless you are practically a monk, unless you are overly generous with your time and money, I dont consider you a valid christian.

So I am not the most open minded when it comes to this stuff.

Last edited Sun Dec 28, 2014, 02:47 AM - Edit history (1)

all the inconvenient shit.

Don't like the idea of eternal damnation? Fuck it. It's gone.

Don't like the idea of wealth as a bar to basking in the beatific vision forever and ever? Look to "biblical scholarship" as a way to justify croaking with a ten-figure bank balance.

Don't like the idea of eating human flesh? Call transubstantiation a rhetorical device of some kind (the Vatican disagrees).

About the only thing they can't throw away is belief in an imaginary friend who presides over all the horseshit. That seems to be changing, but it's a slow process. Casting off delusions forged since childhood isn't easy.

Or atheists who do not monomaniacally attack all things religious?

which is silly

You have made clear you are not a fan but you don't have to have an approved position to post in here.

Maybe you should be writing letters to the very publicly rich pastors of various Christian churches.

by giving their money to those very publicly rich pastors of various Christian churches.

Makes me even more glad I am non-religious. Means I can keep my money with a good conscience.

water into wine and all.

400K in California would not last long enough to live. In Mississippi it may. It all depends. Another thing is if your house is paid and you get a decent pension, you may survive the 400K. All of it is circumstantial and lifestyle.

scripture somewhere other than the needle and rich man, where he says to give your money away?

Acts 2 : 44-45
All the believers were together and had everything in common. They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need.

Acts 4 : 32-35
All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.

Of course, this seems to say that they were only interested in helping fellow Christians. Also, people who sold some land and held back some of the money for themselves were struck dead, supposedly by God, and needless to say, the congregation took notice.

Acts 5 : 11
Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events.

Well, I guess so.

as a minimum. They're very happy to get more than that, of course.

If you get the opportunity to look at the budgets of some of your local mainstream churches, you might learn a lot about the money that comes in and where it goes.

Or you can keep basing your beliefs on something other than facts.

its a big difference in having assets, than out and out cash.