Religion
Related: About this forumWhy we need to stand up for the right to insult religion and beliefs
http://www.hindustantimes.com/columns/why-we-need-to-stand-up-for-the-right-to-insult-religion-and-beliefs/story-nNH5PsYa4OImbcZk7ghI3H.html...
I understand why many think a law against insulting or stirring up hatred between communities is a good idea. My mother goes to the Gurdwara nearly every day and would feel deeply hurt if she heard someone speak ill of Guru Nanak. People have a right to feel distressed when others insult or ridicule their gods or their way of life.
But anti-blasphemy laws do far more damage than good to a society. They are used not to promote tolerance but as an excuse to commit violence. They do this in two ways: by encouraging extremist groups, and by restricting freedom of thought and religion itself.
...
We cannot have freedom of religion and thought without the freedom to criticise other beliefs. There isnt a democracy in the world where freedom of religion co-exists peacefully with anti-blasphemy laws. They are incompatible. They will clash until one fades away. In such a climate we can lose the right to live our lives how we want to, and instead become subjected to a self-appointed religious police. Like in Saudi Arabia and Iran.
RKP5637
(67,102 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)Sadly not all view it as such. Of course, they're the ones who have an idea that they want protected.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)is EVER an appropriate response to offense or hurt feelings.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)"It's normal, you cannot provoke," the pope said. "You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit. Every religion has its dignity."
Response to trotsky (Original post)
Post removed
Festivito
(13,452 posts)We have a right to believe and practice as we wish, a right to freely speak and a right to freely assemble. There is a right of way to interrupt a peaceable assembly as long as you are not disturbing the peace.
One would not thereafter have a right to criticize.
A right to criticize would not make a good cornerstone right.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)What about religious speech that calls for violence? Does that "disturb the peace"? Is that more or less worrisome than someone saying critical things about religion?
Festivito
(13,452 posts)of why it should not be a right.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)You seem to be saying that someone saying something offensive or insulting is just as bad as calling for someone's murder. Is that correct?
Festivito
(13,452 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)You are correct, I'll never understand that.
nil desperandum
(654 posts)a right to speak freely implies the right to criticize, to satirize, to freely mock that which one chooses to mock.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Like John Lennon said in his epic anti-religion song "Imagine if people explained what they meant"
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Did I misunderstand you, or do you not understand what being a member of a free society involves?
niyad
(113,232 posts)Stonepounder
(4,033 posts)Us old farts remember Skokie, Il in 1977 when The American Nazi Party decided to stage a march in Skokie, a predominantly Jewish community with a large number of Holocaust survivors.
From Huffington in 2009 noting the opening of the Holocaust Museum:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/geoffrey-r-stone/remembering-the-nazis-in_b_188739.html
At the time of the proposed march in 1977, Skokie, a northern Chicago suburb, had a population of about 70,000 persons, 40,000 of whom were Jewish. Approximately 5,000 of the Jewish residents were survivors of the Holocaust. The residents of Skokie responded with shock and outrage. They sought a court order enjoining the march on the grounds that it would incite or promote hatred against persons of Jewish faith or ancestry, that is was a deliberate and willful attempt to inflict severe emotional harm on the Jewish population in Skokie (and especially on the survivors of the Holocaust), and that it would incite an uncontrollably violent response and lead to serious bloodshed.
The Skokie controversy triggered one of those rare but remarkable moments in American history when citizens throughout the nation vigorously debated the meaning of the United States Constitution. The arguments were often fierce, heartfelt and painful. The American Civil Liberties Union, despite severe criticism and withdrawal of support by many its strongest supporters, represented the First Amendment rights of the Nazi. As a young law professor at the University of Chicago, I had the played a minor role in assisting the ACLU. In the end, the Illinois Supreme Court, the United States Court of Appeals, and the United States Supreme Court contributed to the conclusion that Skokie could not enjoin the Nazis from marching.
...
The outcome of the Skokie controversy was one of the truly great victories for the First Amendment in American history. It proved that the rule of law must and can prevail. Because of our profound commitment to the principle of free expression even in the excruciatingly painful circumstances of Skokie more than thirty years ago, we remain today the international symbol of free speech. (Ultimately, a deal was worked out and the Nazis agreed to march in Chicago rather than in Skokie.)
Albertoo
(2,016 posts)When Nazis were marching in Germany in 1928,
wouldn't it have saved a lot of horrors if said marches had been banned?
I do not think there is a satisfying answer to that question, one way or the other..
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)Love that Blues Brothers gave a nod to this court decision (which was spot on, btw--back before SCOTUS sucked)
The CCC
(463 posts)The US constitution guarantees us the right to be jerks. But it doesn't require it.
Hestia
(3,818 posts)No one has a lock on the truth and allowing people to run roughshod over someone's beliefs is just as wrong as killing them over their beliefs.
This is a double-edge sword and is only to be used surgically, not welded to mow people down.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)You're actually claiming that mocking someone's religious beliefs is just as bad as murder?
Really?
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Hestia
(3,818 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)It was, for reference:
"allowing people to run roughshod over someone's beliefs is just as wrong as killing them over their beliefs" (post #9)
I think murder is worse than insulting their beliefs. You seem to think they're equally wrong. Is that true or false? Would you care to explain?
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)with insulting religion up thread.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)BULL SHIT.
Wrong. I can criticize any damn religion that says gay marriage is wrong. If that is your religion, did I just hurt you as badly as if I had murdered you?
Are you still breathing?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)Advocates of censorship just drive me batty!
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Are you fucking serious, no really? Attacking someone's beliefs is just as bad as murdering them? That's fucking nuts.
lark
(23,083 posts)What makes what Trump did different is he wants to BAN people from the US based on their religion. That's what's totally unacceptable and unconstitutional to boot.
SunSeeker
(51,550 posts)Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)If our Fundies had their way the police would be arresting everyone they claim to be heretics to turn over to the church for judgement and a confession followed by a public execution by burning at the stake.
Response to trotsky (Original post)
Festivito This message was self-deleted by its author.
Astraea
(465 posts)It hasn't done much for humanity. Aside from a few do-gooders like Dorothy Day. I can't see the relevance of it in the modern world.
Skittles
(153,142 posts)awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)nil desperandum
(654 posts)about people who are offended...
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)And if so, why?
Does he go out of his way to offend people?
Has he ever been offended himself? It certainly sounds like he was whining when he made that statement.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Completely irrelevant. But fascinating.
Fry's statement isn't a treatise on the appropriateness of offense. Go back and read it again.
Albertoo
(2,016 posts)Why we need to stand up for the right to insult religion and beliefs
I remember it's already posted here,
but this Theramin Trees video answers your question quite cogently.
struggle4progress
(118,273 posts)By Jacquielynn Floyd
Metro columnist
Published: 22 August 2016 01:03 PM
Updated: 22 August 2016 04:00 PM
If you use the internet which is roughly analogous to saying, "If you use electricity ..." you contend with trolls ... We have all seen the ghastly stories of suicides or breakdowns attributed to savage internet trolling ... We can't unsee the insult, can't forget the vicious mockery, can't help but wonder whether everybody else who saw that jagged shard of ridicule secretly agrees ... An academic study cited by Psychology Today in 2014 reported that they are definite personality types: narcissistic, psychopathic, sadistic ... What in the Sam Hill is the matter with your brain? What happened to you? None of this, though, fully explains the eagerness with which some internet users routinely insult and belittle others. If I'm guessing, it's the general tenor of politics as cultural warfare: Trolls convince themselves the stakes are so high, the issues so important, that no weapon is off-limits ... Be careful and be kind.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)date become stalkers. We should also ban marriage because some married people engage in spousal abuse. Basically we should ban everything because I'm pretty sure somebody somewhere has managed to put whatever it is to some foul use.