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trotsky

(49,533 posts)
Mon Aug 22, 2016, 10:01 AM Aug 2016

Why we need to stand up for the right to insult religion and beliefs

http://www.hindustantimes.com/columns/why-we-need-to-stand-up-for-the-right-to-insult-religion-and-beliefs/story-nNH5PsYa4OImbcZk7ghI3H.html

In March this year, a 32-year-old British man travelled 320 km north from his town of Bradford to Glasgow and stabbed a man he had never met before. The case shocked Britain because it was the first such religiously motivated attack in its history: Tanveer Ahmed, a Sunni Muslim, had murdered shopkeeper Asad Shah for being an Ahmadiyya Muslim.

...

I understand why many think a law against insulting or ‘stirring up hatred’ between communities is a good idea. My mother goes to the Gurdwara nearly every day and would feel deeply hurt if she heard someone speak ill of Guru Nanak. People have a right to feel distressed when others insult or ridicule their gods or their way of life.

But anti-blasphemy laws do far more damage than good to a society. They are used not to promote tolerance but as an excuse to commit violence. They do this in two ways: by encouraging extremist groups, and by restricting freedom of thought and religion itself.

...

We cannot have freedom of religion and thought without the freedom to criticise other beliefs. There isn’t a democracy in the world where freedom of religion co-exists peacefully with anti-blasphemy laws. They are incompatible. They will clash until one fades away. In such a climate we can lose the right to live our lives how we want to, and instead become subjected to a self-appointed religious police. Like in Saudi Arabia and Iran.
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Why we need to stand up for the right to insult religion and beliefs (Original Post) trotsky Aug 2016 OP
Well said!!! n/t RKP5637 Aug 2016 #1
The very notion that an idea needs to be protected from criticism SHOULD BE repulsive. trotsky Aug 2016 #3
As is the idea that murder skepticscott Aug 2016 #16
Violence is a "normal" response according to one particular religious leader. trotsky Aug 2016 #18
Post removed Post removed Aug 2016 #2
I'd disagree a bit, depending on the form of criticizing it would not be a right. Festivito Aug 2016 #4
Did the author advocate "disturbing the peace"? trotsky Aug 2016 #5
He asks for "the right to insult..." Your examples and mine show my point... Festivito Aug 2016 #15
I don't think the examples even come close to showing your point. trotsky Aug 2016 #17
Perhaps there will be no understanding each other. Have a good day. eom Festivito Aug 2016 #20
Not if you're equating criticism of religion with incitement to murder. trotsky Aug 2016 #22
Indeed you are correct nil desperandum Aug 2016 #28
It's hard to understand someone who won't explain themselves Lordquinton Aug 2016 #23
We don't have a right to criticize? What the fucking what? What are you talking about? Humanist_Activist Aug 2016 #34
k and r niyad Aug 2016 #6
Allowing so-called 'hate-speech' seems to tend to defuse rather than incite. Stonepounder Aug 2016 #7
You have a solid point, but are things so neatly defined? Albertoo Aug 2016 #35
"I hate Illinois Nazis." Goblinmonger Aug 2016 #44
Why we need to stand up for the right to insult religion and beliefs The CCC Aug 2016 #8
On the macro, yes, we need to call out incitement to violence, but on the micro, no. Hestia Aug 2016 #9
Wow, did I read that correctly? trotsky Aug 2016 #13
Yes. I think you did. Act_of_Reparation Aug 2016 #21
No you did not. You are just itching for a fight and I'm not feeding you. Hestia Aug 2016 #39
No, I'm just itching for you to clarify what you said. trotsky Aug 2016 #40
Well perhaps you should clarify 'cause you just equated murder Warren Stupidity Aug 2016 #42
You've got to be kidding! TexasMommaWithAHat Aug 2016 #26
Well done. :) n/t trotsky Aug 2016 #27
Thanks! TexasMommaWithAHat Aug 2016 #31
What the fuck did I just read? Humanist_Activist Aug 2016 #30
Compare and contrast, sure, even complain, it's all OK. lark Aug 2016 #10
K & R SunSeeker Aug 2016 #11
The laws of the State should be secular.... Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2016 #12
This message was self-deleted by its author Festivito Aug 2016 #14
religion should be insulted Astraea Aug 2016 #19
if "faith" was really that strong, the believers would not care Skittles Aug 2016 #24
Amen. nt awoke_in_2003 Aug 2016 #25
I like Stephen Fry's comment nil desperandum Aug 2016 #29
Does Fry feel that giving offense is a good thing? guillaumeb Aug 2016 #32
He's not the only one that sounds like that. Lordquinton Aug 2016 #33
Fascinating questions. Act_of_Reparation Aug 2016 #38
A Theramin Trees answer to the question Albertoo Aug 2016 #36
This article might be useful when dealing with insult-enthusiasts like Sunny Hundal: struggle4progress Aug 2016 #37
I agree. We should ban dating because some people who Warren Stupidity Aug 2016 #43
Best OP the in this group in some time. cleanhippie Aug 2016 #41

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
3. The very notion that an idea needs to be protected from criticism SHOULD BE repulsive.
Mon Aug 22, 2016, 10:48 AM
Aug 2016

Sadly not all view it as such. Of course, they're the ones who have an idea that they want protected.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
18. Violence is a "normal" response according to one particular religious leader.
Mon Aug 22, 2016, 12:38 PM
Aug 2016
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/01/15/pope-islam-paris-charlo-hebdo/21796053/

He referred to Alberto Gasparri, who organizes papal trips and was standing by his side on the plane. If "his good friend Dr Gasparri" says a curse word against his mother, he can "expect a punch," the Pope said.

"It's normal, you cannot provoke," the pope said. "You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit. Every religion has its dignity."

Response to trotsky (Original post)

Festivito

(13,452 posts)
4. I'd disagree a bit, depending on the form of criticizing it would not be a right.
Mon Aug 22, 2016, 11:23 AM
Aug 2016

We have a right to believe and practice as we wish, a right to freely speak and a right to freely assemble. There is a right of way to interrupt a peaceable assembly as long as you are not disturbing the peace.

One would not thereafter have a right to criticize.

A right to criticize would not make a good cornerstone right.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
5. Did the author advocate "disturbing the peace"?
Mon Aug 22, 2016, 11:31 AM
Aug 2016

What about religious speech that calls for violence? Does that "disturb the peace"? Is that more or less worrisome than someone saying critical things about religion?

Festivito

(13,452 posts)
15. He asks for "the right to insult..." Your examples and mine show my point...
Mon Aug 22, 2016, 12:29 PM
Aug 2016

of why it should not be a right.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
17. I don't think the examples even come close to showing your point.
Mon Aug 22, 2016, 12:32 PM
Aug 2016

You seem to be saying that someone saying something offensive or insulting is just as bad as calling for someone's murder. Is that correct?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
22. Not if you're equating criticism of religion with incitement to murder.
Mon Aug 22, 2016, 01:00 PM
Aug 2016

You are correct, I'll never understand that.

nil desperandum

(654 posts)
28. Indeed you are correct
Tue Aug 23, 2016, 01:24 PM
Aug 2016

a right to speak freely implies the right to criticize, to satirize, to freely mock that which one chooses to mock.

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
23. It's hard to understand someone who won't explain themselves
Mon Aug 22, 2016, 05:40 PM
Aug 2016

Like John Lennon said in his epic anti-religion song "Imagine if people explained what they meant"

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
34. We don't have a right to criticize? What the fucking what? What are you talking about?
Tue Aug 23, 2016, 11:46 PM
Aug 2016

Did I misunderstand you, or do you not understand what being a member of a free society involves?

Stonepounder

(4,033 posts)
7. Allowing so-called 'hate-speech' seems to tend to defuse rather than incite.
Mon Aug 22, 2016, 12:16 PM
Aug 2016

Us old farts remember Skokie, Il in 1977 when The American Nazi Party decided to stage a march in Skokie, a predominantly Jewish community with a large number of Holocaust survivors.

From Huffington in 2009 noting the opening of the Holocaust Museum:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/geoffrey-r-stone/remembering-the-nazis-in_b_188739.html

At the time of the proposed march in 1977, Skokie, a northern Chicago suburb, had a population of about 70,000 persons, 40,000 of whom were Jewish. Approximately 5,000 of the Jewish residents were survivors of the Holocaust. The residents of Skokie responded with shock and outrage. They sought a court order enjoining the march on the grounds that it would “incite or promote hatred against persons of Jewish faith or ancestry,” that is was a “deliberate and willful attempt” to inflict severe emotional harm on the Jewish population in Skokie (and especially on the survivors of the Holocaust), and that it would incite an “uncontrollably” violent response and lead to serious “bloodshed.”

The Skokie controversy triggered one of those rare but remarkable moments in American history when citizens throughout the nation vigorously debated the meaning of the United States Constitution. The arguments were often fierce, heartfelt and painful. The American Civil Liberties Union, despite severe criticism and withdrawal of support by many its strongest supporters, represented the First Amendment rights of the Nazi. As a young law professor at the University of Chicago, I had the played a minor role in assisting the ACLU. In the end, the Illinois Supreme Court, the United States Court of Appeals, and the United States Supreme Court contributed to the conclusion that Skokie could not enjoin the Nazis from marching.
...
The outcome of the Skokie controversy was one of the truly great victories for the First Amendment in American history. It proved that the rule of law must and can prevail. Because of our profound commitment to the principle of free expression even in the excruciatingly painful circumstances of Skokie more than thirty years ago, we remain today the international symbol of free speech. (Ultimately, a deal was worked out and the Nazis agreed to march in Chicago rather than in Skokie.)
 

Albertoo

(2,016 posts)
35. You have a solid point, but are things so neatly defined?
Wed Aug 24, 2016, 05:04 AM
Aug 2016

When Nazis were marching in Germany in 1928,
wouldn't it have saved a lot of horrors if said marches had been banned?

I do not think there is a satisfying answer to that question, one way or the other..

 

Goblinmonger

(22,340 posts)
44. "I hate Illinois Nazis."
Fri Aug 26, 2016, 02:03 PM
Aug 2016

Love that Blues Brothers gave a nod to this court decision (which was spot on, btw--back before SCOTUS sucked)

The CCC

(463 posts)
8. Why we need to stand up for the right to insult religion and beliefs
Mon Aug 22, 2016, 12:16 PM
Aug 2016

The US constitution guarantees us the right to be jerks. But it doesn't require it.

 

Hestia

(3,818 posts)
9. On the macro, yes, we need to call out incitement to violence, but on the micro, no.
Mon Aug 22, 2016, 12:20 PM
Aug 2016

No one has a lock on the truth and allowing people to run roughshod over someone's beliefs is just as wrong as killing them over their beliefs.

This is a double-edge sword and is only to be used surgically, not welded to mow people down.


trotsky

(49,533 posts)
13. Wow, did I read that correctly?
Mon Aug 22, 2016, 12:27 PM
Aug 2016

You're actually claiming that mocking someone's religious beliefs is just as bad as murder?

Really?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
40. No, I'm just itching for you to clarify what you said.
Wed Aug 24, 2016, 02:03 PM
Aug 2016

It was, for reference:

"allowing people to run roughshod over someone's beliefs is just as wrong as killing them over their beliefs" (post #9)

I think murder is worse than insulting their beliefs. You seem to think they're equally wrong. Is that true or false? Would you care to explain?

TexasMommaWithAHat

(3,212 posts)
26. You've got to be kidding!
Tue Aug 23, 2016, 09:32 AM
Aug 2016
"...allowing people to run roughshod over someone's beliefs is just as wrong as killing them over their beliefs."

BULL SHIT.

Wrong. I can criticize any damn religion that says gay marriage is wrong. If that is your religion, did I just hurt you as badly as if I had murdered you?

Are you still breathing?
 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
30. What the fuck did I just read?
Tue Aug 23, 2016, 01:49 PM
Aug 2016

Are you fucking serious, no really? Attacking someone's beliefs is just as bad as murdering them? That's fucking nuts.

lark

(23,083 posts)
10. Compare and contrast, sure, even complain, it's all OK.
Mon Aug 22, 2016, 12:21 PM
Aug 2016

What makes what Trump did different is he wants to BAN people from the US based on their religion. That's what's totally unacceptable and unconstitutional to boot.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
12. The laws of the State should be secular....
Mon Aug 22, 2016, 12:26 PM
Aug 2016

If our Fundies had their way the police would be arresting everyone they claim to be heretics to turn over to the church for judgement and a confession followed by a public execution by burning at the stake.

Response to trotsky (Original post)

Astraea

(465 posts)
19. religion should be insulted
Mon Aug 22, 2016, 12:41 PM
Aug 2016

It hasn't done much for humanity. Aside from a few do-gooders like Dorothy Day. I can't see the relevance of it in the modern world.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
32. Does Fry feel that giving offense is a good thing?
Tue Aug 23, 2016, 05:38 PM
Aug 2016

And if so, why?

Does he go out of his way to offend people?

Has he ever been offended himself? It certainly sounds like he was whining when he made that statement.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
38. Fascinating questions.
Wed Aug 24, 2016, 08:44 AM
Aug 2016

Completely irrelevant. But fascinating.

Fry's statement isn't a treatise on the appropriateness of offense. Go back and read it again.

 

Albertoo

(2,016 posts)
36. A Theramin Trees answer to the question
Wed Aug 24, 2016, 05:07 AM
Aug 2016
Why we need to stand up for the right to insult religion and beliefs


I remember it's already posted here,
but this Theramin Trees video answers your question quite cogently.

struggle4progress

(118,273 posts)
37. This article might be useful when dealing with insult-enthusiasts like Sunny Hundal:
Wed Aug 24, 2016, 05:36 AM
Aug 2016
Seeking the best antidote to the pestilence of internet trolls
By Jacquielynn Floyd
Metro columnist
Published: 22 August 2016 01:03 PM
Updated: 22 August 2016 04:00 PM

If you use the internet — which is roughly analogous to saying, "If you use electricity ..." — you contend with trolls ... We have all seen the ghastly stories of suicides or breakdowns attributed to savage internet trolling ... We can't unsee the insult, can't forget the vicious mockery, can't help but wonder whether everybody else who saw that jagged shard of ridicule secretly agrees ... An academic study cited by Psychology Today in 2014 reported that they are definite personality types: narcissistic, psychopathic, sadistic ... What in the Sam Hill is the matter with your brain? What happened to you? None of this, though, fully explains the eagerness with which some internet users routinely insult and belittle others. If I'm guessing, it's the general tenor of politics as cultural warfare: Trolls convince themselves the stakes are so high, the issues so important, that no weapon is off-limits ... Be careful — and be kind.
 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
43. I agree. We should ban dating because some people who
Thu Aug 25, 2016, 02:01 AM
Aug 2016

date become stalkers. We should also ban marriage because some married people engage in spousal abuse. Basically we should ban everything because I'm pretty sure somebody somewhere has managed to put whatever it is to some foul use.

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