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guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
Wed Jan 9, 2019, 02:57 PM Jan 2019

"Silence encourages the tormenter, never the tormented".

From Elie Wiesel's acceptance speech after being awarded the Nobel Prize.


The quote is taken from a paragraph:

And then I explain to him how naïve we were, that the world did know and remained silent. And that is why I swore never to be silent whenever wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented. Sometimes we must interfere. When human lives are endangered, when human dignity is in jeopardy, national borders and sensitivities become irrelevant. Wherever men and women are persecuted because of their race, religion, or political views, that place must – at that moment – become the center of the universe.


To read the entire speech:
http://eliewieselfoundation.org/elie-wiesel/nobelprizespeech/

I post this because, in responses to my few posts about the Chinese oppression of the Uighur Muslims in China, a few responses basically asked why I am even posting about this.

First, Wiesel says it far better than I could. We are all linked by our common humanity. What oppresses one can oppress all.

And oppression directed by atheists is equally as bad as the oppression directed by theists. It is the oppression that should be the focus.


The Chinese Government has given various excuses for their oppression, and in this case it is the Muslim Uighurs, but the Chinese Government has also tried to exercise control over other faith groups as well. It is a generalized intolerance for what they see as rivals.
34 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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"Silence encourages the tormenter, never the tormented". (Original Post) guillaumeb Jan 2019 OP
Still waiting on you to show that the leaders in China are atheists Major Nikon Jan 2019 #1
Yawn. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #2
Yeah, I know, it's boring to assume you'll actually support your assertions when challenged Major Nikon Jan 2019 #4
Again: guillaumeb Jan 2019 #6
Let's look at that, but change the wording a little bit: MineralMan Jan 2019 #16
As to your accusation, guillaumeb Jan 2019 #7
I support my assertions, gil Major Nikon Jan 2019 #9
Of course you do. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #10
Prove that I don't Major Nikon Jan 2019 #19
Enough diversion from the actual post. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #21
At least you managed to prove something Major Nikon Jan 2019 #22
No one asked you why you were posting these stories. Act_of_Reparation Jan 2019 #3
Convinced that you are a mind reader? guillaumeb Jan 2019 #5
No reading of minds is necessary. trotsky Jan 2019 #12
And the 10,000 and 1 posts about priests molesting children? guillaumeb Jan 2019 #13
10,000 and 1, huh? trotsky Jan 2019 #14
Again with ad hominem and misframing. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #18
Metaphor Major Nikon Jan 2019 #23
How many, Guy? 10,001? Really? MineralMan Jan 2019 #15
Hyperbole. Look it up. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #20
You mean the ones where you keep claiming their leaders are atheists? Major Nikon Jan 2019 #24
No, that is not hyperbole. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #26
I didn't say it was Major Nikon Jan 2019 #27
You mean those posts you go to great lengths to silence? Lordquinton Jan 2019 #28
Do you even care about what is happening in China? guillaumeb Jan 2019 #30
It's the latest bright shiny object Major Nikon Jan 2019 #8
More strawmen accusations? guillaumeb Jan 2019 #11
It's obviously trolling. Act_of_Reparation Jan 2019 #17
And this is called dialogue? guillaumeb Jan 2019 #25
If you were half as interested in dialogue as you are with appearing to appeal for dialogue... Act_of_Reparation Jan 2019 #29
Look in a mirror and tell yourself what you just wrote. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #31
Argumentum ad Pee Wee Herman Act_of_Reparation Jan 2019 #32
You set the bar. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #33
No, you set the bar. Act_of_Reparation Jan 2019 #34

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
1. Still waiting on you to show that the leaders in China are atheists
Wed Jan 9, 2019, 03:05 PM
Jan 2019

But here we are in yet another thread on you pushing the same false narrative and no closer to a response.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
2. Yawn.
Wed Jan 9, 2019, 03:07 PM
Jan 2019

The Chinese Government has given various excuses for their oppression, and in this case it is the Muslim Uighurs, but the Chinese Government has also tried to exercise control over other faith groups as well. It is a generalized intolerance for what they see as rivals.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
4. Yeah, I know, it's boring to assume you'll actually support your assertions when challenged
Wed Jan 9, 2019, 03:12 PM
Jan 2019

...before repeating them ad nauseum. This is at least the 6th thread on this same topic in the last month, and if "It is a generalized intolerance for what they see as rivals" is true and several have already pointed this out, then this has exactly zero to do with religion and all you are accomplishing is shitposting.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
6. Again:
Wed Jan 9, 2019, 03:14 PM
Jan 2019

The Chinese Government has given various excuses for their oppression, and in this case it is the Muslim Uighurs, but the Chinese Government has also tried to exercise control over other faith groups as well. It is a generalized intolerance for what they see as rivals.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
16. Let's look at that, but change the wording a little bit:
Wed Jan 9, 2019, 04:31 PM
Jan 2019

You wrote:

"The Chinese Government has given various excuses for their oppression, and in this case it is the Muslim Uighurs, but the Chinese Government has also tried to exercise control over other faith groups as well. It is a generalized intolerance for what they see as rivals."

I write:

"Donald Trump has given various excuses for his oppression, and in this case it is the Spanish-speaking migrants, but Donald Trump has also tried to exercise control over other ethnic and religious groups, like Muslims, as well. It is a generalized intolerance for what he sees as intruders."

In both cases, it is governments, not religions, who are doing those things. It has nothing to do with religions, but governments, instead. This is the Religion Group. we discuss religions here. We normally don't discuss governments. Governments are social structures, not religious organizations. We discuss governments in other parts of DU. We discuss religions here.

Governments are not religious organizations. They are political organizations and social structures.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
9. I support my assertions, gil
Wed Jan 9, 2019, 03:22 PM
Jan 2019

I get that you want to project your bad behavior on others, but that shit just ain't gonna fly no matter how much propulsion you add to it. Meanwhile you still have no answer to providing proof that the leaders in China actually are atheists to begin with, much less even attempting to explain what atheism has to do with any of it. Kinda ironic that you're now refusing to do so with two replies instead of one.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
19. Prove that I don't
Wed Jan 9, 2019, 05:53 PM
Jan 2019

And guess what, if you don’t (and we both know you can’t) that will just be more proof of you not supporting your assertions as if more were needed.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
3. No one asked you why you were posting these stories.
Wed Jan 9, 2019, 03:11 PM
Jan 2019

We all know why you are posting these stories. And it has very little to do with your concern for the Uyghurs.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
5. Convinced that you are a mind reader?
Wed Jan 9, 2019, 03:13 PM
Jan 2019

Fascinating.

So, are you concerned with the subject of the Chinese Government's oppression of the Uighurs?

If not, why not?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
12. No reading of minds is necessary.
Wed Jan 9, 2019, 03:43 PM
Jan 2019

You've made your agenda perfectly clear.

You're arguing against a claim that no one has made, namely that atheists can't be intolerant. Again, NO ONE HAS CLAIMED THIS.

What IS true, however, is that no one can use atheism as a justification for intolerance. There's nothing in the statement "I don't believe in gods" to justify it.

What is ALSO true is that there's plenty in YOUR religion, and MOST (if not all) of them, of specific edicts and teachings that can support intolerance.

You despise those facts, so instead you keep posting thread after thread of "atheist intolerance" as if that somehow proves religion is never a factor and that the intolerance just happens because we're human.

No wonder no one takes you seriously.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
13. And the 10,000 and 1 posts about priests molesting children?
Wed Jan 9, 2019, 03:48 PM
Jan 2019

What agenda is being served?

The RCC admitted that it is a huge problem. So why keep posting about individual incidents?

What agenda is being served.
What meme is being promoted?

No wonder there is no dialogue, when one side is determined to frame religion as a negative.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
14. 10,000 and 1, huh?
Wed Jan 9, 2019, 04:06 PM
Jan 2019

Surely you can prove that claim.

But I doubt the number is that large. I think you are exaggerating. I.e., lying. Right? You are, because you can't provide 10,001 links to separate threads.

So now that we agree the actual number of posts is much smaller, how many posts about the RCC's abuse problem is too many, gil? What is an acceptable count before you will want to censor people?

No wonder no one takes you seriously.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
18. Again with ad hominem and misframing.
Wed Jan 9, 2019, 05:51 PM
Jan 2019

You called me a liar. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the word hyperbole, and its uses.

And again with the claim of censorship.

And your final meme, conflating a tiny group with "no one".

Well done, and typical.

PS.
The bit about "well done" was sarcasm.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
15. How many, Guy? 10,001? Really?
Wed Jan 9, 2019, 04:20 PM
Jan 2019

Perhaps you exaggerate. In fact, certainly you exaggerate. To what end?

This group is about Religion, so you're going to see posts about the evil religious people do in this group. I guarantee it. And why would people not post about the continuing hypocrisy and the continuing wrongdoing that hypocrisy produces? This is the Religion Group. The topic here is religion. And not just nice things about religion, but the evil deeds done in the name of religion, as well.

Resign yourself to it. When religion causes evil, that will be discussed here. When priests and pastors sexually assault children in the name of God, we'll bring the stories here to shine a bright light on the hypocrisy of that.

It is not religion, per se, that we oppose. It is wrongdoing in the name of religion. You don't get that, apparently.

What agenda? The agenda of good deeds. The agenda of equal rights. The agenda of not supporting evildoing. And so on.

What meme? There is no meme, Guy. That exists only in your imagination.

Dialogue? It's present in every thread. Most people who are active in this group are eager discussers of things. Only a couple of people here avoid the discussions though whataboutism and diversions. There used to be more such people, but they have gone elsewhere or have been asked to leave.

You want discussion? Then, I suggest you participate in actual discussion. Answer questions with answers, not questions designed to divert. If you do that, you might learn who the people here are and what they stand for.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
20. Hyperbole. Look it up.
Wed Jan 9, 2019, 05:53 PM
Jan 2019

As to discussion, it mainly takes the form of a very few agreeing with each other.

As to diversion, one can look at my posts about the Chinese Government to find plenty of diversion and avoidance in the replies.

But that contradicts the meme. I understand.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
24. You mean the ones where you keep claiming their leaders are atheists?
Wed Jan 9, 2019, 06:30 PM
Jan 2019

And refused to answer why you think atheism is relevant?

Yeah, quite a bit of avoidance and diversion to be found in those.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
27. I didn't say it was
Wed Jan 9, 2019, 06:42 PM
Jan 2019

Pro-tip: proofread for obvious comprehension errors before questioning someone’s literacy to avoid unnecessary embarrassment.

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
28. You mean those posts you go to great lengths to silence?
Thu Jan 10, 2019, 05:50 AM
Jan 2019

Every 10001 of them?

In fact these current posts about China are an attempt to deflect away from the scandal unfolding in real time, here in the USA wholly by the RCC, with no ambiguity in it. Priests are abusing religion to rape children. It's not about power, it's using their divine master to scare children from telling on them. Using their protected status to shield rapists. Using people's good faith that men of good could never act like that.

But you'd prefer silence about it.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
30. Do you even care about what is happening in China?
Thu Jan 10, 2019, 12:23 PM
Jan 2019

Your response reveals your obvious desire, which is that the Religion Group be devoted to negative news about theists.

We all understand that.

As to the real time scandal, what is happening in China, the war on theism, is happening today.

And perhaps this war on theism is something that you prefer to silence because it does not fit with your preferred narrative.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
8. It's the latest bright shiny object
Wed Jan 9, 2019, 03:18 PM
Jan 2019

Followed by dozens of other posts trying to convince us atheism was responsible for Hitler's genocide, as if that nonsense hasn't been debunked before.

Meanwhile we must be content in the knowledge that the motivation behind religion based human rights abuses is meaningless, as if that's supposed to be consolation to those who are adversely affected by it.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
17. It's obviously trolling.
Wed Jan 9, 2019, 04:42 PM
Jan 2019

He's presenting as clear a composition fallacy as one can make. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming he knows that, but is making the argument anyway just to elicit a reaction for his "audience".

You know, the four or five people who can't post here anymore because they don't know how to behave like adults.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
29. If you were half as interested in dialogue as you are with appearing to appeal for dialogue...
Thu Jan 10, 2019, 11:58 AM
Jan 2019

...we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
33. You set the bar.
Thu Jan 10, 2019, 12:47 PM
Jan 2019

And I understand why some here refuse to talk about China because it does not fit the preferred narrative. Demonstrating the limits of empathy?

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