I remember getting chastised by our minister for asking why there weren't any women in the holy trinity. I was about 12, & it was already apparent that religion considered women "lesser than."

read "when god was a woman" by merlin stone, as just one example, of what the patriarchy did to religion.

I believe the patriarchy hijacked religion to dominate. First, to dominate all women & then to dominate any men who aren't in their club. I also believe that the patriarchy's roots lie in our awareness or knowledge of men's role in procreation. There certainly was a time when we didn't connect the sex act with birth. It was a time when women had more status & power, due to being the bringer's of life. Once the procreation connection was made, men felt their status was elevated. But more than that, they wanted to control women's sexuality, to control the end product, so to speak. I also feel that there is some species angst regarding the issue that they can never know for certain, if the child is really "theirs." I argue that we were a better species when we didn't have individual ego attached to the children of our community.

I'll check back with you after I've read the book, to see how my theories stand up.

the «Fourth Person »and «Co-Redemptrix,» much to the agitation of the hierarchy.

kind of a chicken/egg thing.

If you can't have one without the other, perhaps both need to go.

religion may need misogyny for its "divine order", but misogyny can exist quite happily without religion.

hypothesis, which assumes that one thing cannot exist without the other.

but would the patriarchy be as powerful without religion? And when I say religion, I mean the big three, where God is clearly masculine. I think the patriarchy hijacked religion for their own purpose of domination. Religious women, who believe we are subservient to men, are a perfect example of what a powerful tool religion can be.

Either way, it plays a major role in the perpetuation of it.

a person vs a role. even in that second link, looking down, we have "man's role" vs "wife's role"

grrrrrr

I remember when that was a traditional word in the woman's vow.

warned me in advance that the minister would talk about "wives being submissive to their husbands" so that I would not be inclined to smack him. I asked her what she was doing marrying into that nonsense (and, as I expected, it lasted less than a year)

I think DH could see the steam coming out of my ears. When our daughter got married a few years ago our pastor assured me that nothing of the sort is ever mentioned in a Lutheran (ELCA) wedding.

and wife", so don't tell me it hasn't been used for decades.

Part of the religious problem is moving clergy into the modern world

see my #19

Are only "serious theologians" allowed to say what is and isn't truth?


By what authority do YOU claim what is and isn't truth?

It hasn't gone away.

It has been out of the prayer books for some time. It is not only liturgically wrong, but theologically and socially wrong.

Please write the clergy about it.

What sub-group or sect, I'm not sure. I spent as little time in the church as possible.

the "servant headship" of men in families. The men get to be the heads; women get to be the servants.

Since you haven't heard it personally, and it's not in the books you read, you doubt that it happened.

You really need to get out into the real world more, Charles, and not just rely on your personal experiences.

And the second link has, among an amazing assortment of some of the worst bigotry around, an article on how you can inoculate your children against homosexuality!!

http://www.bible.ca/s-homo-vaccine.htm

Yep, I would say these links pretty closely represent the views of democrats that hang around these parts.

This is some of the lamest flamebait I have ever seen, and I have seen a lot.

It replicates the history of religion and non-religion (if there was any) in that part of the world. As modern religious scholarship continues to say, religion didn't come down from the sky, but up from culture. And that was the almost universal pattern.

And you forgot one additional thing. Below children in this hierarchy, were slaves.

recognized women as apostles and heads of churches that met in their homes. He wasn't a complete male chauvinist oinker--maybe just a pork loin or side of bacon compared with later ecclesiastical authorities.

Serious misogyny seems to have come into Christianity after the Jerusalem church was destroyed along with the city in 70 CE. It became a Greco-Roman based religion at that point and incorporated the corresponding social attitudes toward women. Roman law put a woman under the manus (lit. hand) first of her father, then of her husband. Along with that legal authority came the right to kill a daughter or wife at the man's discretion, sexual misbehavior being the usual excuse. Greek philosophy considered women barely human, not even contributors to their own children's formation in utero. Even so, it seems to have taken a couple centuries to muzzle women across the Empire, even longer where Celtic Christianity prevailed.

But there are plenty of other things that can lead to misogyny too, from nationalism and xenophobia (it's women's job to have as many babies for our nation/ ethnic group as possible!), to a selfish desire by the people in power to stay that way, often leading to a form of panicky social conservativism which, at least in this country, often doesnt depend on religion.

No I'm not.

and you DID take that VOW to obey your husband, right?!?!?

to one degree or another they believe in biblical patriarchy, women choosing to not have children aren't just taking seen as a taking a life they're rejecting to their godly role as a mother. It's just matter degree to which they take it. Southern Baptist don't forbid women or going to college, but they believe that women should "graciously submit". In the extremes like within the Independent Fundamental Baptist movement, women are forbidden to wear pants and women working outside and higher education are discouraged. In contrast, mainline denominations generally believe in full equality, that's why they ordain women and are generally pro choice.