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tencats

(567 posts)
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 02:29 PM Mar 2016

We Might Finally Be Able to Read Ancient Scrolls Damaged By Vesuvius Eruption


The Herculaneum papyri were carbonised into fragile blocks (pictured)


X-rays are revealing the lettering and ink for the first time in 2,000 years. It suggests metal ink was used centuries earlier than was initially believed

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3503046/Peeling-layers-Herculaneum-scrolls-reveals-papyri-ink-contained-METAL-centuries-earlier-thought.html#ixzz43epsalEu
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The eruption of Vesuvius, and the subsequent annihilation of nearby towns, was a tragedy that turned, over centuries, into an archaeological opportunity. Furniture, animals, home utensils, and frescoes—these have all informed modern people about the lives of ancient people. One exception is the scrolls of Herculaneum, which were charred through, due to the heat of the falling ash.
We Might Finally Be Able to Read Ancient Scrolls Damaged By Vesuvius Eruption
Image: Emmanuel Brun

They were discovered centuries ago, but are too delicate to be unrolled. Generations of historians and archaeologists pined over them. Now scientists from the Italian National Research Council believe they’ve found an aspect of the scrolls that may make them readable.

Everyone thought that the people of Herculaneum, and other ancient societies, wrote with carbon-based ink. Though eventually metallic inks made their way into the mix, it was assumed that this happened well after 79 AD. But when the scientists took fragments of the scrolls to Grenoble, France and put them in a particle accelerator, the technique revealed quite a lot of lead in the ink. http://gizmodo.com/we-might-finally-be-able-to-read-ancient-scrolls-damage-1766252879
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We Might Finally Be Able to Read Ancient Scrolls Damaged By Vesuvius Eruption (Original Post) tencats Mar 2016 OP
Great comment on the Gizmodo article: LongTomH Mar 2016 #1
LOL Kalidurga Mar 2016 #2
When finally built it was pretty pathetic. The Picts put graffitti all over it, and went around. jtuck004 Mar 2016 #4
And that's why we call them Pict-ures. Raster Mar 2016 #15
This one was meant to be delivered. Igel Mar 2016 #19
Did the graffiti elljay Mar 2016 #23
lol. n/t jtuck004 Mar 2016 #24
I read one study that indicted the wall was to keep people IN not out. happyslug Mar 2016 #21
cannot WAIT to see what they annabanana Mar 2016 #3
Finally, an explanation. eggplant Mar 2016 #5
Yes, we can not only drink the water, we can also write with it. Cal33 Mar 2016 #11
Maybe... SoapBox Mar 2016 #6
Ancient Fettuccine Alfredo recipe from Vesuvian Olive Garden. edbermac Mar 2016 #7
Fascinating. Uncle Joe Mar 2016 #8
Did you know that more than three-quarters of the Villa dei Papiri have never been excavated at all. tencats Mar 2016 #20
Daily Mail is a horrible Web site -- caused my browser to hang for several minutes. eppur_se_muova Mar 2016 #9
I know tencats Mar 2016 #13
here are some pieces they already deciphered... Javaman Mar 2016 #10
but since it's from Rome's answer to Vegas ... MisterP Mar 2016 #12
Holy shit. . . matt819 Mar 2016 #14
Speaking of which, this quote made me laugh... Beartracks Mar 2016 #16
Roman ink = old wine + soot ? Califonz Mar 2016 #17
Too cool for school! marble falls Mar 2016 #18
But not Hillary's transcripts. But seriously, yay science!!!! valerief Mar 2016 #22
This could be a huge breakthrough. Warren Stupidity Mar 2016 #25

LongTomH

(8,636 posts)
1. Great comment on the Gizmodo article:
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 02:33 PM
Mar 2016
“I, Hadrian, say that we can stop illegal Pictish immigration into this great land by building a wall across Britannia. I will even make the Picts pay for it!” - Paid for by the Rome for the Romans Committee

 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
4. When finally built it was pretty pathetic. The Picts put graffitti all over it, and went around.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 03:31 PM
Mar 2016


And, as they said, they didn't pay one sheep toward the cost.
 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
21. I read one study that indicted the wall was to keep people IN not out.
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 03:25 PM
Mar 2016

One reason for this conclusion was when the area around the wall were studied anti personnel devices were found SOUTH of the wall not north of the wall. That indicates a fear of people leaving not entering. The area around the wall was more like the area around the Berlin Wall, no concern to the area outside the wall (and graffiti all over that side of the wall) but rigid correctness on the side where the East Germans or Romans were located. Thus Hadrian's wall appears to be a wall like the Berlin Wall, to keep people in.

Please note you do not build a solid wall to stop an invasion. Instead you hold on to choke points an invader has to go through. This what both England and Scotland did in the middle ages when they were two independent countries. Neither country tried to use Hadrian's wall, it was to wide to defend with enough troops to actually stop an invasion. Instead, once an army crossed the border, which was Hadrian's wall, they reacted to the threat. In England by reinforcing York, In Scotland by reinforcing Sterling or Inverness. Sterling and York were on the main road so taking them was essential to any invasion. Hadrian's wall never factored into any invasion of England or Scotland.

eggplant

(3,893 posts)
5. Finally, an explanation.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 03:41 PM
Mar 2016

Future generations will note just how forward thinking we were to add so much lead to Flint's water supply.

edbermac

(15,919 posts)
7. Ancient Fettuccine Alfredo recipe from Vesuvian Olive Garden.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 04:06 PM
Mar 2016

Experts still divided on what was more lethal, the food or the volcano.

tencats

(567 posts)
20. Did you know that more than three-quarters of the Villa dei Papiri have never been excavated at all.
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 09:51 PM
Mar 2016

If interested be sure to read the article that appeared in the New Yorker magazine. Describes the efforts made in the past to read these ancient scrolls, a process that over the centuries resulted in the destruction of scrolls. Now there is new hope that using the current advancements in technology that soon scientist scholars can begin the unraveling the Herculaneum papyri. Surprisingly many more Papiri await to be unearthed.

The Invisible Library
Can digital technology make the Herculaneum scrolls legible after two thousand years?
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/11/16/the-invisible-library

More than three-quarters of the Villa dei Papiri has never been excavated at all. It wasn’t until the nineteen-nineties that archaeologists realized that there are two lower floors—a vast potential warehouse of artistic treasures, awaiting discovery. A dream held by papyrologists and amateur Herculaneum enthusiasts alike is that the Bourbon tunnellers did not find the main library, that they found only an antechamber containing Philodemus’ works. The mother lode of missing masterpieces may still be there somewhere, tantalizingly close.

Mocella accompanied me on my visit to the Villa dei Papiri. Giuseppe Farella, who works for the Soprintendenza, the regional archeological agency, which oversees the site, took us inside the locked gates and led us into some of the old tunnels made by the Bourbon cavamonti in the seventeen-fifties. We used the lights on our phones to guide us through a smooth, low passageway. An occasional face emerged from the faint wall frescoes. Then we came to the end.

“Just beyond is the library,” Farella assured us, the room where Philodemus’ books were found. Presumably, the main library, if one exists, would be near that, within easy reach.

But for the foreseeable future there will be no more excavations of the villa or the town. Politically, the age of excavation ended in the nineties. Leslie Rainer, a wall-painting conservator and a senior project specialist with the Getty Conservation Institute, who met me in the Casa del Bicentenario, one of the best-preserved structures in Herculaneum, said, “I am not sure excavations will ever be opened again. Not in our lifetime.” She pointed to the paintings on the walls, which the G.C.I.’s team is in the process of recording digitally. The colors, originally vibrant yellows, had turned red as a result of the heat from the volcano’s eruption. Since being uncovered, the painted architectural details have been deteriorating—the paint is flaking and powdering from exposure to the fluctuating temperature and humidity. Rainer’s project analyzes how this happens.

Richard Janko, of the University of Michigan, argues that books are a special case, archeologically, and should be excavated regardless. “Books are a different kind of artifact,” he said. “You can gain knowledge of a whole way of life through a single book. They are designed to carry information across the centuries.” If we wait until the volcano erupts again, he warns, they could be lost forever. Vesuvius, which has erupted scores of times since A.D. 79 and is still one of the most dangerous volcanoes on earth, has been quiet since 1944.

eppur_se_muova

(36,227 posts)
9. Daily Mail is a horrible Web site -- caused my browser to hang for several minutes.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 04:37 PM
Mar 2016

Stupid scripts everywhere !

tencats

(567 posts)
13. I know
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 05:25 PM
Mar 2016

I know I know, mine too but the have the best pics.

I started here: http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35865470
Ancient scrolls give up their secrets:


And here:
http://phys.org/news/2016-03-ink-scrolls-eruption-mount-vesuvius.html:
Lead found in ink used to write scrolls buried by eruption of Mount Vesuvius

Javaman

(62,439 posts)
10. here are some pieces they already deciphered...
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 04:44 PM
Mar 2016

"ground shaking, getting really hot, stuff falling from sky...must bake bread".

Beartracks

(12,761 posts)
16. Speaking of which, this quote made me laugh...
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 11:07 PM
Mar 2016

Down in the comments section, someone quotes a description of one scroll, from a New Yorker Magazine article:

"Swaddled in thick cotton was what appeared to be a human turd."

 

Califonz

(465 posts)
17. Roman ink = old wine + soot ?
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 01:11 AM
Mar 2016

The Romans sweetened wine with lead acetate, which might explain the lead content of the ink.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
25. This could be a huge breakthrough.
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 04:33 PM
Mar 2016

Almost all of the ancient texts we have are iterated copies from centuries after the original. Many texts have no extant copies and are known only by citation in texts we do have. Religious institutions were doing almost all of the replication of pre-Christian texts of the documents we do have, and they edited and modified and cherry picked what they preserved to suit their agenda.

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