Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

H2O Man

(73,510 posts)
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 02:02 PM Mar 2016

Rumble

The older, long-time DU community members may recall that a couple of weeks ago, I posted an OP here about how the successes of an insurgent campaign are measured very differently than those of an establishment campaign. Thus, despite the Clinton camp’s attempts to portray the Democratic primaries as a done deal, the truth is that the Sanders movement was actually in a great position.

After yesterday’s results became known, I’m confident that those participants in the Sanders revolution who have less experience in insurgencies appreciate the strength of Bernie’s campaign. Our friends in the Clinton camp may feign happiness with yesterday’s results, but that’s merely a part of their collective effort to convince themselves that their candidate is “inevitable.” What is most important today is that the general public is beginning to see the contest between Hillary and Bernie in a very different light.

This morning, I had a medical appointment. My doctor is a liberal, registered member of the republican party. Political anthropologists believe that species is facing extinction, due to climate change within their party. However, there actually are an estimated eight liberal republicans in the United States.

As my strategy at such appointments is to direct attention from my health issues, I use the tried and true tactic of asking, “So what do you think about the primaries?” Works like a charm.

He said that, for the first time, he can see a route to victory for Bernie. He believes that if Bernie can wing the nomination -- against the wishes of the Democratic establishment -- he would be favored to beat any of the remaining republican candidates. In theory, he said, he thinks Sanders is the best candidate of those running. More, his wife -- who he said is very conservative -- has begun watching the Democratic debates, because she finds Bernie to be interesting. She’s not supporting him, but also will not rule out voting for him in the national election. Yet neither of them would ever, under any circumstances, consider voting for Hillary ….not because she is a woman, not because she is a Democrat, but because they are among a larger group that views Hillary as representative of all that is corrupt in our political system.

This is the process that a strong insurgency takes. It’s not a matter of winning each and every primary vote or caucus. That’s the establishment’s measure. Rather, it is to engage in specific battles, as part of the over-all conflict. The results of those battles changes the manner in which the public views the contest and its process. And as a result of that change, the strength of the Sanders revolution continues to build momentum.

I’m off to visit a college in upstate New York, to talk to some student activists about the Sanders revolution. I should be back this evening, to continue this discussion. I’m hoping some of the Sanders movement here will respond to a couple of questions:

First, are you feeling confident today? And second, in the context of a non-establishment insurgent campaign, are you ready to rumble? (Tonight’s debate will definitely be a rumble!)

We are in a great position now. Take time to enjoy it. For what we are taking part in now, at this strange and dangerous time in our nation’s history, is a campaign unlike any previous campaign in America. A lot of the credit goes to Bernie Sanders. And a lot of it goes to people like you. I thank you for that.

Peace,
H2O Man

141 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Rumble (Original Post) H2O Man Mar 2016 OP
I was waiting for hubbys truck at the dealership today. A group of men were in waiting room. peacebird Mar 2016 #1
Right. H2O Man Mar 2016 #4
Yeesh. Trump would be better? NO WAY. That would be the end of us liberalnarb Mar 2016 #17
I took it to mean, as self described Rs they were disgusted with their establishment candidates peacebird Mar 2016 #24
We are in an odd political climate n/t Aerows Mar 2016 #97
I have never seen such enthusiasm for a candidate, for a movement yourpaljoey Mar 2016 #2
There was a lot H2O Man Mar 2016 #6
Were you comatose in 2008? CorkySt.Clair Mar 2016 #11
He wasn't pure enough, I guess. randome Mar 2016 #14
In retrospect he's pure neocon. [nt] Coincidence Mar 2016 #81
Good point Mbrow Mar 2016 #94
In fairness BHO is surely the best Reagan Republican POTUS we've ever had... Coincidence Mar 2016 #98
when your right, Mbrow Mar 2016 #99
Bernie acknowledges that Obama started this thing. JDPriestly Mar 2016 #19
Well said. mountain grammy Mar 2016 #29
Mr. Obama probably had to battle the corporate DNC as well as the wingnuts. diane in sf Mar 2016 #88
My view precisely. JDPriestly Mar 2016 #134
Very well said. I think Obama is not getting the credit that he does deserve, Bohunk68 Mar 2016 #95
Someone pointed out to me the parallels between Jesus' life and that of Bernie. JDPriestly Mar 2016 #135
What more could anyone be? Bohunk68 Mar 2016 #136
How do you work out that a person's staff picks are "not about (him)?" malthaussen Mar 2016 #108
Excellent analysis. SheilaT Mar 2016 #133
Fan of both. Not sure that DU constitutes "most" of Bernie fans bigbrother05 Mar 2016 #22
Another fan of both, in fact, Two here!! nt Duval Mar 2016 #30
Add me to that list. I appreciate what President Obama has done. GoneOffShore Mar 2016 #34
Thank you. H2O Man Mar 2016 #60
+1,000 Pretty much the way I am seeing it also. Bohunk68 Mar 2016 #96
Bullshit. Indepatriot Mar 2016 #25
I know most Bernie fans have no use for PBO AlbertCat Mar 2016 #38
Respectfully disagree. H2O Man Mar 2016 #58
Says the member who joined DU in Dec., 2015! Divernan Mar 2016 #90
Sorry, I couldn't resist... panader0 Mar 2016 #3
Yikes! H2O Man Mar 2016 #7
Sorry, I couldn't resist... either AlbertCat Mar 2016 #39
Rumble ..... H2O Man Mar 2016 #47
That is great. panader0 Mar 2016 #55
I agree. H2O Man Mar 2016 #56
Time now for Old Codger Mar 2016 #5
Yep, definitely H2O Man Mar 2016 #8
How quick can things change? 1968. LiberalArkie Mar 2016 #15
Yep. H2O Man Mar 2016 #48
At this point Old Codger Mar 2016 #35
Right. H2O Man Mar 2016 #49
If not now, when? Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2016 #9
Exactly. H2O Man Mar 2016 #61
A "representative of all that is corrupt in our political system". stillwaiting Mar 2016 #10
Right. H2O Man Mar 2016 #62
Great post as usual. Thoughtful, inspiring but cautious as well. madfloridian Mar 2016 #12
Thanks! H2O Man Mar 2016 #63
I have a Republican Friend burrowowl Mar 2016 #13
Yep. H2O Man Mar 2016 #67
Ready to rumble. Uncle Joe Mar 2016 #16
Thanks, Uncle Joe! H2O Man Mar 2016 #68
HUGE K & R !!! - THANK YOU !!! WillyT Mar 2016 #18
Thanks, Willy! H2O Man Mar 2016 #69
Well the rumble continues, no matter what happens..that is very exciting to me. Great OP, as usual. Jefferson23 Mar 2016 #20
Thanks! H2O Man Mar 2016 #70
feeling very positive G_j Mar 2016 #21
Right! H2O Man Mar 2016 #71
To answer precisely and quickly so that I can go to the gym and be fit for the fight in JDPriestly Mar 2016 #23
Thank you! H2O Man Mar 2016 #74
Wow! people Mar 2016 #26
Thanks, people! H2O Man Mar 2016 #79
Oh, how he rambles. malthaussen Mar 2016 #110
Nice post! Enthusiast Mar 2016 #92
I am feeling confident. At last the dialog is turning to issues that PatrickforO Mar 2016 #27
Right! H2O Man Mar 2016 #82
Have waited so long for this particular momentum to be here kgnu_fan Mar 2016 #28
Yep. H2O Man Mar 2016 #100
I've been LittleGirl Mar 2016 #31
Well said! H2O Man Mar 2016 #101
Thanks! Cheers n/t LittleGirl Mar 2016 #117
Yes! and hell yes! Lokijohn Mar 2016 #32
Thanks, Lokijohn! H2O Man Mar 2016 #102
Thanks for the OP! Punkingal Mar 2016 #33
Thank you. H2O Man Mar 2016 #103
Last night was very interesting. Punkingal Mar 2016 #122
Ramble on, And nows the time, the time is now To sing my song. kgnu_fan Mar 2016 #36
You are The Best! H2O Man Mar 2016 #104
Thank you too and I have to say dana_b Mar 2016 #37
Thank you, dana_b! H2O Man Mar 2016 #105
Over 300 recs and 4 days of dialogues: Mission Accomplished H2O Man. Thanks for your sorechasm Mar 2016 #140
I am feeling confident in the American people and a little less cynical today. AtomicKitten Mar 2016 #40
Yay! Enthusiast Mar 2016 #93
Right! H2O Man Mar 2016 #107
Beautiful. H2O Man Mar 2016 #106
Michigan was a big deal. The paradigm was upturned, the route highlghted, the foolish blather shown Bluenorthwest Mar 2016 #41
Very well said. H2O Man Mar 2016 #109
Well, H20 Man Iwillnevergiveup Mar 2016 #42
Great! H2O Man Mar 2016 #111
kick'n'rec! pat_k Mar 2016 #43
Thanks, pat_k! H2O Man Mar 2016 #112
Rumble mhatrw Mar 2016 #44
Rumble! (and bungle in the jungle!) H2O Man Mar 2016 #113
This message was self-deleted by its author Sensitive soul Mar 2016 #45
Malcolm H2O Man Mar 2016 #114
kick and recommended kgnu_fan Mar 2016 #46
Thanks! H2O Man Mar 2016 #115
k and r FlatBaroque Mar 2016 #50
Thank you, FlatBaroque! H2O Man Mar 2016 #116
Very well articulated H2O flamingdem Mar 2016 #51
Thanks! H2O Man Mar 2016 #118
I am extremely confident, have been since I caucused here in CO. Autumn Mar 2016 #52
Very good! H2O Man Mar 2016 #121
K&R#159 bobthedrummer Mar 2016 #53
Thanks, Bob! H2O Man Mar 2016 #123
VERY CONFIDENT noretreatnosurrender Mar 2016 #54
Very good! H2O Man Mar 2016 #128
another insightful post H20 Man...K & R...we are truly in a battle to recover the soul of not only islandmkl Mar 2016 #57
I agree 100% H2O Man Mar 2016 #129
thank you...your posts are the voices we need to hear... islandmkl Mar 2016 #130
And I thank you for your babylonsister Mar 2016 #59
I am in Michigan and am proud to have enlightened some of my co-workers about Bernie corkhead Mar 2016 #64
Indeed. Enjoy the moment. XRubicon Mar 2016 #65
Longer than you .... H2O Man Mar 2016 #66
I've been here since 2007 XRubicon Mar 2016 #72
I was referencing H2O Man Mar 2016 #75
Oh... XRubicon Mar 2016 #77
Oh H2O Man Mar 2016 #78
We Keep Hearing That... We've Been Hearing It Since At Least April... And They've Been WRONG... WillyT Mar 2016 #73
All I'll say to you Willy is that I will vote for the nominee XRubicon Mar 2016 #76
This message was self-deleted by its author Sensitive soul Mar 2016 #80
This message was self-deleted by its author Sensitive soul Mar 2016 #83
And thanks to you warrprayer Mar 2016 #84
Kick and R BeanMusical Mar 2016 #85
Bernie is doing what Reagan did. KPN Mar 2016 #86
I feel a little more confident every day.. mountain grammy Mar 2016 #87
These ARE our kids marions ghost Mar 2016 #125
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2016 #89
Kicked and recommended! This seems to be a common theme. Enthusiast Mar 2016 #91
What a great OP! So glad to rec it! jonestonesusa Mar 2016 #119
Confident? No. malthaussen Mar 2016 #120
H2O Man marions ghost Mar 2016 #124
Just watching now, MuseRider Mar 2016 #126
The way I feel as a long, long time Progressive lunatica Mar 2016 #127
I have a correction for you RoccoR5955 Mar 2016 #131
great discussion.... kgnu_fan Mar 2016 #132
Recommend. nt Zorra Mar 2016 #137
Yay! I was the 300th recommend Oilwellian Mar 2016 #138
Yay! Rec #301. K&R nt antigop Mar 2016 #139
Been hesitant to make a prediction, but, I think NC is beginning to look good blm Mar 2016 #141

peacebird

(14,195 posts)
1. I was waiting for hubbys truck at the dealership today. A group of men were in waiting room.
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 02:10 PM
Mar 2016

Topic of the elcetion came up, I was stunned that they all expressed disgust w R candidates in general, and said they hoped Trump and Sanders get the nominations, because either would be better than any of the other candidates out there.

H2O Man

(73,510 posts)
4. Right.
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 02:19 PM
Mar 2016

My doctor said that everywhere he stopped this morning, that's what people were talking about. It's a good sign.

yourpaljoey

(2,166 posts)
2. I have never seen such enthusiasm for a candidate, for a movement
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 02:12 PM
Mar 2016

It's everywhere, and people want to talk about it.
Thank you for the succinct thoughts.

H2O Man

(73,510 posts)
6. There was a lot
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 02:22 PM
Mar 2016

of energy in 1968, with RFK's run. Intense energy. And I think that 2008 was impressive, too. But, exactly as you noted, there's enthusiasm for the candidate and the movement today. It's a unique time in history.

 

CorkySt.Clair

(1,507 posts)
11. Were you comatose in 2008?
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 02:49 PM
Mar 2016

I know most Bernie fans have no use for PBO, but rallies with 30-40k people were commonplace.

He also won 2 elections handily.


 

randome

(34,845 posts)
14. He wasn't pure enough, I guess.
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 03:26 PM
Mar 2016

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

Mbrow

(1,090 posts)
94. Good point
Thu Mar 10, 2016, 07:47 AM
Mar 2016

I voted both times for BHO and campaigned hard the first time, he was the best candidate both times.He has his issues. If HRC was the best we had I'd be there as well. But this time It's Bernie.

 

Coincidence

(98 posts)
98. In fairness BHO is surely the best Reagan Republican POTUS we've ever had...
Thu Mar 10, 2016, 09:01 AM
Mar 2016

But like Hillary, he's not a progressive at all. The irony is that the conservatives in this country hate him with such vitriol when he's been right of center on nearly everything, even to the right of GWB on many issues (like assault weapons, immigration, drilling)! If Barack Obama were a white Christian Republican from Texas named Judd Johnson, I have no doubt there would be a movement right now to have his mugshot carved into Mt. Rushmore immediately.

Mbrow

(1,090 posts)
99. when your right,
Thu Mar 10, 2016, 09:05 AM
Mar 2016

your right. unfortunately A lot of people didn't see it at first and by the second time we just held our noses and voted. That why Bernie is refreshing.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
19. Bernie acknowledges that Obama started this thing.
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 03:38 PM
Mar 2016

Obama hired too many Goldman-Sachs Wall Street people for his administration. But it was a good start in the right direction.

Obama, don't forget, had Rahm Emmanuel running his staff. That is an example of the kind of mistakes in staffing the Obama made. It's not about Obama. It's about the advice he sought and the staff he appointed. They pushed him in some wrong directions. Hillary at State was also a mistake. Why did Obama appoint a person who voted for the Iraq War to the State Department? Since Kerry is Secretary of State we have made a lot of progress in bringing more peace to the world. And peace means prosperity and a healthier planet.

But Obama started the move in Bernie's direction in 2008. Obama has not been tough enough in fighting the Republicans and in spite of his wonderful personality and good character has not united a forceful, active movement to back him up in his efforts. I don't know why that is. I think the DNC has not worked with Obama to use grass-roots' Democrats' energy as usefully to work toward Obama's goals as it could have.

Bohunk68

(1,364 posts)
95. Very well said. I think Obama is not getting the credit that he does deserve,
Thu Mar 10, 2016, 08:40 AM
Mar 2016

for the same reasons you stated. I was disappointed with some of his appointments. But, realized that he would be opposed, no matter what he did. And, that is what happened. I enthusiastically support Bernie. I see and hear positives wherever I go in this red area of Upstate NY. I see only his stickers, everywhere. Only seen one Hillary. Our church study group is all pro-Bernie and declare that the Jewish guy from Vermont is the only person who acts like a true Christian in the whole lot. Not forgetting that Jesus was just being a good Jewish kid. The OP is uplifting. Just realized I am replying to JDP. I agree with you so many times, that I don't bother posting much. We're the same age and agree on a lot of things. So HI HO, JDP.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
135. Someone pointed out to me the parallels between Jesus' life and that of Bernie.
Thu Mar 10, 2016, 05:37 PM
Mar 2016

Both born to Jewish families.

Bernie was a carpenter at one point in his life.

Both preach love for others and tell us all to treat others as we would like to be treated.

The parallels are profound.

Bohunk68

(1,364 posts)
136. What more could anyone be?
Thu Mar 10, 2016, 11:55 PM
Mar 2016

Finally, the candidate that I have been waiting for alllllll these years. Honesty. Integrity. Humbleness. Compassion. That is why he crosses all lines. The storm is coming.

malthaussen

(17,175 posts)
108. How do you work out that a person's staff picks are "not about (him)?"
Thu Mar 10, 2016, 10:18 AM
Mar 2016

He chose the staff. You ask "why did he pick them" when the simple answer is "because he thought they were the right people." And why did he think that? Because he agreed with them and/or they agreed with him.

To say, in this context, that his staff picks are "not about him" is reminiscent of the old idea that "the king can do no wrong." I prefer Harry Truman's slogan: the Buck Stops Here.

-- Mal

 

SheilaT

(23,156 posts)
133. Excellent analysis.
Thu Mar 10, 2016, 03:41 PM
Mar 2016

Barack Obama is probably the smartest person in the room most of the time. But his actual political experience when he ran for President in 2008 was quite limited, which was pointed out by many. He hadn't yet interacted with very many people who were at the level he needed to draw upon for his administration, so he made any number of poor choices, such as the number of Goldman-Sachs appointees. To a large extent I think his heart has been in the right place, as exemplified by his willingness to accommodate Republican whims far beyond what he should have.

Bernie was a mayor for a number of years, then got elected to Congress more than twenty-five years ago. That means he knows a lot about the practical side of running things, even if Burlington is a lot different from the entire country. More importantly, he's been in Congress, in both the House and the Senate, which means he understands very well how things work, knows all of the current players. It's entirely possible that as President he will actually get a great deal through Congress precisely because of his time that, rather like Lyndon Johnson.

bigbrother05

(5,995 posts)
22. Fan of both. Not sure that DU constitutes "most" of Bernie fans
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 03:44 PM
Mar 2016

There are things I wish he had done, but he pulled our country back from the brink even though the RWNJ have struggled to hurl us all into the abyss.

GoneOffShore

(17,337 posts)
34. Add me to that list. I appreciate what President Obama has done.
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 04:27 PM
Mar 2016

I just wish he had been able to go farther.

H2O Man

(73,510 posts)
60. Thank you.
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 08:19 PM
Mar 2016

I find the attempts to divide in this manner distasteful. I suspect that anyone who was here in 2008 can clearly remember who supported Obama, and who didn't. And it definitely was not today's Sanders's supporters who were viciously attacking Senator Obama back then.

I supported Barack Obama in 2008 and 2012. I believe that he has had one of the most significant presidencies in our nation's history. I was proud to back him, not only in elections, but while he served, as well. I did disagree with President Obama on a handful of issues. In my opinion, that shows greater respect than those who simply served as cheerleaders.

 

Indepatriot

(1,253 posts)
25. Bullshit.
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 03:49 PM
Mar 2016

I'd bet my house most Bernie backers backed Obama too. That doesn't mean we're thrilled with all of his actions / lack of actions. We simply want more focus on the Middle and Working Class. Period. Hillary is Pure Wall Street. Period. We saw her as last year's candidate in 08' and she's gotten less desirable since then. Most of us respect President Obama, but he's a centrist at heart, and thanks to the Third Way Clinton Cabal, that "center" has moved waaaay too right to truly be the center.

 

AlbertCat

(17,505 posts)
38. I know most Bernie fans have no use for PBO
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 04:35 PM
Mar 2016

You do?

I sure don't. "No use"? That's simply absurd. Having criticisms of some of Obama's actions and policies (he does admire Reagan, y'know) is nowhere near "no use for".

It's like pointing out that Hillary voted for things she voted for, or quoting things she actually said, is not an "attack".

This up or down, black or white dichotomous view of everything has got to stop! It's the current zeitgeist and it's unhealthy.

I think Sanders is helping to dissolve the line between us and them. There are conservatives that like him. (a thing Hillary's people seem to often think is some kind of handicap) It's not "we can fix the rigged money system OR help minorities" it's "We can fix the rigged system AND help minorities because they are intricately and complexly connected." It's not this one thing or this one thing.

H2O Man

(73,510 posts)
58. Respectfully disagree.
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 08:11 PM
Mar 2016

First, there really is no call for insults here. We should focus on engaging in meaningful discussion ....or, even debate. There is plenty of information to discuss and debate in regard to the Democratic Party's presidential primary.More, to a very large extent, we all share common goals ....although there is obvious disagreement on how we best reach those common goals.

Second, not only is there zero evidence that "Bernie fans have no use for PBO," but that comes across as a cheap shot, intended exclusively on stirring the pot. Let's not resort to that shallow a tactic. A person should be capable of expressing valid reasons for supporting Hillary Clinton. Indeed, while I am supporting Sanders, I'm confident that I could easily address the strengths of Hillary Clinton, far better than 99% of her DU supporters do.

Insults and the like do nothing to advance either candidate, our party, or our goals.

Divernan

(15,480 posts)
90. Says the member who joined DU in Dec., 2015!
Thu Mar 10, 2016, 05:11 AM
Mar 2016

No, sweetie, we were part of the enthusiastic support for PBO back in 2008.

H2O Man

(73,510 posts)
56. I agree.
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 08:03 PM
Mar 2016

There was an intensity to that Young Man, even when he was joking around. And Bundini could motivate him, like no other.

 

Old Codger

(4,205 posts)
5. Time now for
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 02:21 PM
Mar 2016

Not feeling particularly confident today,but more so than previously.. Call it cautious optimism mixed with a dash of cynicism. I have been around long enough to know that elections cycles can bring about many surprises in both directions.Bernie is up against a very strong coalition of large amounts of money and he frightens them, people that are frightened are in fact frightening to me, I and a lot of others have seen the repercussions of that before..

The future definitely looks brighter than it did a few days ago.. I will continue to do as much as I can until the final tally takes place.My involvement in any political activity will very much depend on the outcome of this nomination process..

H2O Man

(73,510 posts)
8. Yep, definitely
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 02:25 PM
Mar 2016

Things can change in an instant. We cannot take anything for granted.

And I think that we have reached the point, as you suggest, that the Sanders movement will be targeted not only by our political opposition, but by our enemies.

 

Tierra_y_Libertad

(50,414 posts)
9. If not now, when?
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 02:32 PM
Mar 2016

This is our chance to, at least, injure the politics-as-usual corruption that has run this country for too long.

“The abuse of buying and selling votes crept in and money began to play an important part in determining elections. Later on, this process of corruption spread in the law courts and to the army, and finally, when even the sword became enslaved by the power of gold, the republic was subjected to the rule of emperors.” —Plutarch (c. AD 46 – AD 120)

H2O Man

(73,510 posts)
61. Exactly.
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 08:22 PM
Mar 2016

Well said. Thank you.

We have an opportunity. It is unique: this opportunity will never be available again. While there may be other opportunities that look, feel, smell, and taste similar may arise, they will be distinct. For this is absolutely a one-time-only chance to save our constitutional democracy.

stillwaiting

(3,795 posts)
10. A "representative of all that is corrupt in our political system".
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 02:44 PM
Mar 2016

This is going to be the bridge too far for a not insignificant part of Bernie supporters in the G.E.

Add that to the trouble Hillary has with Independents and the Youth vote, and we will be in much more trouble in November than if Bernie were to become the nominee.

I truly hope that Bernie supporters can emphasize this successfully to undecideds (and maybe even to a few Hillary supporters).

We need Bernie to win this nomination.

H2O Man

(73,510 posts)
62. Right.
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 08:26 PM
Mar 2016

Yesterday, I posted here in DU:GDP, and asked Hillary supporters what -- should she win the nomination -- they believe people like me can say to progressives, to try to convince them to vote for Clinton in November.

I noted that appointments to the US Supreme Court strikes me as valid. I was hoping that they might raise other options.

Nor surprisingly, there was no response from Hillary's supporters.

madfloridian

(88,117 posts)
12. Great post as usual. Thoughtful, inspiring but cautious as well.
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 03:20 PM
Mar 2016

Thanks for all the years of great posts, H20 Man

burrowowl

(17,632 posts)
13. I have a Republican Friend
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 03:24 PM
Mar 2016

And he has contributed to Bernie because he is the only honest politician out there!

G_j

(40,366 posts)
21. feeling very positive
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 03:40 PM
Mar 2016

I'm hearing the better angels whispering to many, many people, good outcomes are indeed possible.

H2O Man

(73,510 posts)
71. Right!
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 09:25 PM
Mar 2016

I enjoy watching the process unfold. And I think that the Sanders revolution will feel a significant burst of energy tonight, both during and after the debate.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
23. To answer precisely and quickly so that I can go to the gym and be fit for the fight in
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 03:47 PM
Mar 2016

June in California and November across the country:

First, are you feeling confident today? As a Bernie supporter, yes, but we have a long way to go and a tough struggle ahead. Ohio is a big one. So is Illinois. If we can do fairly well there, the West Coast will be Bernie country.


And second, in the context of a non-establishment insurgent campaign, are you ready to rumble? (Tonight’s debate will definitely be a rumble!)

I am ready to tumble and rumble.

Let's stay humble so that we and Bernie will not fumble.

Bernie is the greatest.


.

people

(622 posts)
26. Wow!
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 03:50 PM
Mar 2016

Thank you for your very long and thoughtful post. I am 68 years old and I have NEVER in my whole life been happier about any election than I am about Bernie winning MI. I think if Trump is the republican nominee Bernie can beat him. I'm not so sure that Hillary could. Trump is pretending he will return American manufacturing jobs here and if Hillary is the Democratic nominee he will point to all the trade agreements she supported - but because Trump hasn't been in gov't he has no record on these agreements. Bernie is the ONLY person who actually could have voted for any of these agreements but chose not to. Makes me so happy to see him win MI.

H2O Man

(73,510 posts)
79. Thanks, people!
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 09:51 PM
Mar 2016

This was actually a rather short OP for me. I tend to ramble on and one.

You raise interesting and important points. Much appreciated!

PatrickforO

(14,559 posts)
27. I am feeling confident. At last the dialog is turning to issues that
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 04:01 PM
Mar 2016

actually matter to Americans. It's fantastic that we have a candidate talking about the stuff Bernie's talking about. I know in my heart that if we make those things Bernie wants happen, this country will be SUCH a better place to live!

H2O Man

(73,510 posts)
82. Right!
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 09:53 PM
Mar 2016

Having candidates actually discussing the issues that Bernie is raising is huge. Those issues are being seriously discussed by people across the country. And that is such a good thing!

LittleGirl

(8,280 posts)
31. I've been
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 04:23 PM
Mar 2016

following Bernie for years...I remember seeing him on Olbermann and Maddow's show back in '07 or '08. Back then I heard myself say out loud, I wished he'd run for President, I'd vote for him. I've never been so convinced that he fits my definition of honesty, integrity and humbleness. I hear all kinds of awful things about politicians. All my life. Shoot Nixon resigned when I was just learning about government in high school so I thought they were all crooks. But not Bernie. He doesn't have a crooked bone in his body. #FeelTheBern!

H2O Man

(73,510 posts)
101. Well said!
Thu Mar 10, 2016, 09:40 AM
Mar 2016

I first met Bernie in 1981. While he has grown, his basic core values are identical today to what they were then. Of course, I had no idea that he would be running for president one day. Heck, I never would have guessed that he'd make it to the US Senate. But Vermont is different than NYS: they elect honest Senators there.

Punkingal

(9,522 posts)
33. Thanks for the OP!
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 04:25 PM
Mar 2016

I feel more confident than I did, for sure. I had a sneaky feeling ever since the debate on Sunday night that we were going to win yesterday. I sure did enjoy last night...so much so that i could hardly get to sleep.

I'm definitely ready to rumble...I have been for more years than I care to remember. Bernie is our best hope since RFK, a candidate who talked about love. Bernie talks about the golden rule, and if that's not about love for your fellow man, I don't know what is! We so need someone who talks like that, instead of fomenting divisiveness and anger. Someone to bring out the best in us. I imagine I sound corny to some, but I remember a time when there wasn't so much selfishness and greed. I don't understand when people dismiss Bernie as an angry old man. He's only angry at the unfair system we have. He's angry for US.

And while I am not a church-goer, I consider myself spiritual, and I send Bernie good vibes mentally every day. May he stay strong, well, and safe!

H2O Man

(73,510 posts)
103. Thank you.
Thu Mar 10, 2016, 10:01 AM
Mar 2016

I thought that debate was going to change the outcome, too. I try to watch -- and "score" -- debates as objectively as possible. And I thought that Bernie was much stronger, especially in the second-half.

Campaigns can be physically and mentally tiring. I think that showed through. It might be a large part of why Hillary attempted to "be in control" of the debate .....by ignoring the time-limits, and talking for twice as long as she was supposed to, virtually every time she spoke. Now, that tactic is mistaken for an alpha-quality in republican debates, but it does not translate the same here. It came across as programmed as Marco Rubio at his worst. More -- much more -- it was plum rude.

The moderators struggled to get Hillary to respect the rules -- which means to respect the format, and the audience. That she refused -- again, virtually every time -- showed a contempt for the process. Thus, Bernie addressed it in a manner that focused the spotlight on Hillary's rude behavior.

This is, like her refusal to release the Goldman Sachs' transcripts, an un-forced error. Hence, her campaign was forced to try to spin it to portray Bernie as Mean Mr. Mustard. And that is so weak, that it could only appeal to the bitterest of the bitter.

What did you think of last night's show?

Punkingal

(9,522 posts)
122. Last night was very interesting.
Thu Mar 10, 2016, 11:29 AM
Mar 2016

I don't see this debate as having as much impact as the Michigan one. It seemed to me the audience really liked Bernie. I think, this is an opinion only, that a symbolic corner has been turned, not just for Bernie but for people who have liked him, but have been hesitating because "he can't win." The response to his closing statement was amazing....people standing, cheering, and clapping. At first I thought it was just the end of the debate cheering, but it wasn't...it was for Bernie!

I thought he did very well...he will get his main points in, some way, somehow. He was definitely given less time than Hillary, but he is a better debater now and still gets his points across.

I think Hillary was given very tough questions, as well as given more air time. She certainly made an effort to be more pleasant and less angry than the Michigan debate. I thought her answers were okay for the most part, typical Hillary answers. Interesting that for this audience, she broke with Obama, on the issue of immigration, of course. As usual, she was taking credit for things I don't believe she was involved in, like Obama and Cuba, for instance, but she always does that. The auto bail-out lie double down was not a surprise, nor was the insinuation that Bernie is a communist. I think the audience liked her, too, but not as much as Bernie.

Overall, I think Bernie was the debate winner, and I think he will once again do better than expected, this time in Florida. One thing that didn't come up directly was the housing crisis, and I know Florida was hit hard. Florida was part of the book and movie "The Big Short." I expect Bernie's Wall Street message will resonate there. If I am not mistaken, he did okay with Hispanics in NV and CO, so this will be an interesting contest.




dana_b

(11,546 posts)
37. Thank you too and I have to say
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 04:35 PM
Mar 2016

that I always find your OPs to be a breath of fresh air.

I am feeling confident today! Not OVERLY confident, because I see the road ahead, but I do feel a bit better than I did a week or so ago and even then I had some confidence.

I am definitely ready to rumble! I think that includes donating more time than I have been. I can't do more financially, but I can try to do so through the campaign and even online. Also just doing what you are doing and talking to people that we encounter in our daily lives. Today my daughter is trying to show her defense instructor that Bernie is NOT bad for small businesses. So I did some homework online and sent her the links to show to him. I hope it helps!! He has it in his mind that Bernie is a socialist (not Democratic Socialist) that wants to tax him out of business. Too much fear put into his head from Fox "News".

So yeah - let's do this!!

H2O Man

(73,510 posts)
105. Thank you, dana_b!
Thu Mar 10, 2016, 10:14 AM
Mar 2016

I do try to make my OPs worth reading. I recognize that not everyone is going to agree with everything I write -- for that would mean they aren't worth reading. Rather, I attempt to write in a manner that makes people think ....and, because there absolutely are a lot of highly intelligent community members here, I hope for an open, non-hostile discussion to follow.

In my mind's eye, Bernie is literally continuing the conversation that the Founding Fathers began. And, without question, the FF anticipated -- and demanded -- that to be an on-going conversation.

I do not see any other candidate doing that. Senator Obama did, in 2008. And Jesse Jackson did, in his primary runs. But before him, we really would have to go back several decades to find anyone from either party who did so.

sorechasm

(631 posts)
140. Over 300 recs and 4 days of dialogues: Mission Accomplished H2O Man. Thanks for your
Sun Mar 13, 2016, 10:02 AM
Mar 2016

valuable insight.

I especially like this phrase of yours: 'Only the media could sell plastic as organic.'.

 

AtomicKitten

(46,585 posts)
40. I am feeling confident in the American people and a little less cynical today.
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 05:03 PM
Mar 2016

I am gobsmacked at Bernie's showing in Michigan. Delighted to be sure that Michiganders saw through the manipulative lies and horseshit, but knowing Clinton will cling to the quest for the nomination like grim death demonstrating yet again she will do anything and everything to win.

I remain in awe of the organization going on on Reddit, calling on what seems like an endless supply of foot soldiers, the wonderful volunteers that I am so grateful for. They are orchestrating phone banks and knocking on doors. They are matching up people in states soon on deck to house the volunteers. They are plugging in help in "hot spots" where people call in for targeted assistance in real time.

I expect the ugly from the Clinton camp to increase exponentially. Snake-like David Brock is at the forefront using his Media Matters and Blue Nation Review and now the Onion purchased by a Clinton supporter to disseminate lies and propaganda. Mark Penn is behind the scenes manipulating polling. Their scorched earth approach makes me sad and anxious, not that I think it will work so much but because it is wholly unpleasant.

This may be our last shot to wrestle democracy back from those that wish to be our corporate overlords, and I am ready to rumble. I will dig deep and concentrate on ways I can help. I am phone banking and offering my home to house volunteers. I am not physically able to get out and canvass; I'll leave that to the wonderful, amazing people who are jumping in their cars and going to the states where Bernie needs a hand. I am verklempt writing this because these efforts come from a place of joy, and it is a beautiful thing.

And so, dear H20 man, let us gird our loins and in the words of Dylan Thomas not go gentle into that good night, but rage against the dying of the light.

k/r

H2O Man

(73,510 posts)
106. Beautiful.
Thu Mar 10, 2016, 10:16 AM
Mar 2016

And powerful.

Thank you for this -- it really should be required reading for all Democrats. I'm going to forward your post to my four children.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
41. Michigan was a big deal. The paradigm was upturned, the route highlghted, the foolish blather shown
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 05:07 PM
Mar 2016

to be foolish blather. This is the election my particular circle of family and friends have not just been waiting for but longing for and preparing for. Plus I'm at my best in an insurgent context so I'm personally content.

H2O Man

(73,510 posts)
109. Very well said.
Thu Mar 10, 2016, 10:29 AM
Mar 2016

This, like a couple other posts on this thread, really should be expanded upon for an OP here on DU:GDP. For you have articulated something that I suspect many of us -- myself included -- have felt, but which remained unsaid until you did so here.

There are a heck of a lot of us who have struggled for the causes of social justice for decades. In those struggles, we have often felt marginalized the the establishment .....including within the Democratic Party. That establishment wanted our money, our organizing skills, and our votes. But they didn't want to hear our opinions, and they very rarely were willing to support our causes.

We've experienced "wins" and "loses" along the way. But for many of us, there was an anticipation of something else coming up, on down the line. And I do believe that the Sanders revolution is it. It provides the opportunity for us to contribute our various skill-sets to the common cause.

I really hope that you will turn your post into an OP. I know that it would be beneficial for a lot of people here.

Iwillnevergiveup

(9,298 posts)
42. Well, H20 Man
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 05:16 PM
Mar 2016

Wednesday was a doctor visit day for me, too. After hearing the spectacular news that a new prescribed blood pressure medication (Benazep/HCTZ) was doing the trick, I too, asked the open-ended question: "So what do you think of the Michigan primary?" I had no clue about his political leanings, but, what the heck? He lit up like a Christmas tree and said "I loved it!" I asked him if he supported Bernie and he told me after he listened to a couple of his speeches, he became a believer. Said he was most impressed with how long Bernie's been fighting.

I then proceeded to tell him about DWS and the brilliant young man who's going to unseat her. He didn't know about her, but now he does and is gonna send Tim a donation. Along with one to Bernie, of course. A most satisfying morning.

And THANK YOU, H2O Man, for all you've done and are doing.



H2O Man

(73,510 posts)
111. Great!
Thu Mar 10, 2016, 10:33 AM
Mar 2016

I'm glad that you had good news. (I figure that as long as I'm above ground, I'm doing pretty darned good!)

These types of conversations are going on in doctors' offices, gas stations, grocery stores, work places, etc. Bernie's campaign is breathing new life into our democracy.

Thank you!

Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Autumn

(44,985 posts)
52. I am extremely confident, have been since I caucused here in CO.
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 07:02 PM
Mar 2016

Yeah I'm ready to rumble, I think Bernie will deliver an uppercut tonight and set her up for a knockout. He was really on her on the last debate.

H2O Man

(73,510 posts)
121. Very good!
Thu Mar 10, 2016, 10:57 AM
Mar 2016

Well done .....I'm not sure if I've ever mentioned my passion for the sport of boxing (grin), which causes me to view all of life in the context of the Great Sport.

Your post reminded me of something. Back many years ago, when I boxed, it was rare for me to face anyone with a skill set that made for serious competition. But there were a few, and they made for my favorite ring experiences. In some of those instances, I still took them out in the first round, but some of those bouts went longer.

That was where "pace" was important. I was confident that I could set a pace ....more accurately, impose a pace .....that forced my opponent to spend more energy than he wanted to. Now, he might very well do good enough to build a lead on the judges' scorecards. His fans might have honestly believed their guy was winning. But I knew better.

Mentally, I was measuring a few things: how hard he was breathing, any small changes in his reflexes, and especially, how he reacted to a punch to his body. And so there would come I time when I forced him to use his remaining energy, then pull him into a clinch, and say, "Is that all you got? 'Cause you are in a lot of trouble right now." And then I'd end the fight.

I think the last two debates have indicated that we are approaching that point.

H2O Man

(73,510 posts)
123. Thanks, Bob!
Thu Mar 10, 2016, 11:35 AM
Mar 2016

Did you see last night's debate? What did you think of it?

My youngest daughter, home for "spring break," thinks it's a giggle that our phone is ringing off the hook .....tons of friends and associates calling to report on conversations they have over-heard or participated in, over the past 72 hours. The tide is turning.

noretreatnosurrender

(1,890 posts)
54. VERY CONFIDENT
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 07:25 PM
Mar 2016

1. I know we will have setbacks as we travel this road but I am very confident tonight because more and more people are opening their eyes. I KNOW that most of the American people are ready for this change so we just have to help people do what they want to do in the first place. The more they get to see this campaign and what's its about the better chance we have of succeeding in this revolution. The contests so far show that we've improved every step of the way. In Michigan we earned more Black votes than we did in the South. The Jewish candidate received strong support from the Arab-American community (something the press ignored). They trust Bernie and they trust us. I've talked with Democrats, Independents & even Republicans who are liking what they see. As a matter of fact a Republican I work with was angry at the media for dissing Bernie. lol That's a good start. He's not voting for him....yet but I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up doing so.

2. Rumble, young man, Rumble! or in this case Rumble, "old man" Rumble!...Waaaaa. lol Let's get ready to ruuuuuuumble. And yes we will go the distance. We will not sit on our stool and say no mas, no mas when things don't go our way. We will figure out how to use our opponents strengths to defeat her. And when we do then we will take on our next opponent and the next opponent and the next opponent.

H2O Man

(73,510 posts)
128. Very good!
Thu Mar 10, 2016, 12:35 PM
Mar 2016

I especially like your first paragraph. You've nailed it. This is an organic movement. While every presidential campaign seeks to portray itself as such, organic movements are extremely rare. There have been very few in my lifetime.

The Trump campaign attempts to be viewed as such. And, in a sense, it is capitalizing on the discontent of the public. Yet, the Trump campaign has become what it is due to the investment that the corporate media has made, with month after month after month of covering Trump's outrageous behavior, even more so than the republican voters' outrage. Only the media could sell plastic as organic.

I, too, am in the Old Man stage of life. Perhaps Big George Foreman's come-back is a more accurate description of us now, though we still remember that amazing young champion who floated like a butterfly, and stung like a bee.

islandmkl

(5,275 posts)
57. another insightful post H20 Man...K & R...we are truly in a battle to recover the soul of not only
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 08:08 PM
Mar 2016

the Democratic Party but the fundamental principles of our nation...

H2O Man

(73,510 posts)
129. I agree 100%
Thu Mar 10, 2016, 12:41 PM
Mar 2016

You are absolutely correct -- this is for the soul of our party, and for those principles that are required to be a constitutional democracy. That really is what this is all about. And I think that a growing number of people are beginning to recognize that, as the Sanders movement comes into focus. That includes a heck of a lot of people who are not registered Democrats ....but would be, if our party actually produced candidates who honored those principles.

Your post really hits the nail on the head. I've probable re-read it 20 times as I'm typing this response. I love it. Thank you!

corkhead

(6,119 posts)
64. I am in Michigan and am proud to have enlightened some of my co-workers about Bernie
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 08:43 PM
Mar 2016

I was talking with one tonight before I left work. I first introduced her to Bernie sometime around when he first announced his candidacy. Tonight she was asking me about what happens with delegates when there is a brokered convention. She is too young to remember the 1968 primaries and convention so I gave her that history lesson. We also had a great discussion about how Reagan's launch in Philadelphia Mississippi could have been what planted the seeds that ultimately lead to Clinton's African American advantage. ( I was riffing off of an interview of Matt Taibbi by Sam Seder that I had just heard earlier in the day.)

We also compared notes about our informing and cajoling family co-workers and friends to become politically involved and learn about Bernie's message. We both can brag about us being the first to introduce Bernie to a number of people who ultimately went out to vote for him last night.

We concluded our conversation by my telling her that we may have just witnessed a watershed event, years from now we may look back at yesterday as a major turning point in the history of this country, and that she should be proud to have played a role in it.

XRubicon

(2,212 posts)
72. I've been here since 2007
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 09:26 PM
Mar 2016

Really before that, I can't remember what my screen name was way back when.

Anyway, enjoy your moment.




 

WillyT

(72,631 posts)
73. We Keep Hearing That... We've Been Hearing It Since At Least April... And They've Been WRONG...
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 09:26 PM
Mar 2016
EVERY SINGLE TIME.


XRubicon

(2,212 posts)
76. All I'll say to you Willy is that I will vote for the nominee
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 09:29 PM
Mar 2016

Bernie or Hillary.

I predict I will be voting for Hillary.

Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Response to H2O Man (Original post)

KPN

(15,637 posts)
86. Bernie is doing what Reagan did.
Thu Mar 10, 2016, 01:31 AM
Mar 2016

He's appealing to people on both sides of thea isle who are fed up with what has been going on. Bernie will get many Is and maybe even substantial Rs to vote for him -- if only the Ds give him that chance -- and its looking more and more like they will.

mountain grammy

(26,598 posts)
87. I feel a little more confident every day..
Thu Mar 10, 2016, 01:52 AM
Mar 2016

seeing lines around the block to attend a caucus make my heart want to burst. My caucus had several new people and all were young and there to vote for Bernie. This political awakening has been a long time coming, and I couldn't be happier. Maybe these kids will save our sorry old asses after all.

Response to H2O Man (Original post)

jonestonesusa

(880 posts)
119. What a great OP! So glad to rec it!
Thu Mar 10, 2016, 10:50 AM
Mar 2016

So proud of Sanders, his focus on the issues, and looking forward to voting for him in the Wisconsin primary!! This campaign is truly grass roots with progressive policies getting the prominence they should have! A long time ago I was in Minnesota when Paul Wellstone earned a seat in the US Senate and I will never forget being there to chant "Senator Wellstone!!!" on election night!! Now I am feeling the Bern, time to beat the odds once again!!

malthaussen

(17,175 posts)
120. Confident? No.
Thu Mar 10, 2016, 10:56 AM
Mar 2016

I'm a control freak, I'm never confident when the results of something depend on other people.

I think the road to victory for Mr Sanders has been sketched out well enough, he and his staff know at least some of what they have to do to win, and the energy and enthusiasm are not lagging, despite the best efforts of the nay-sayers, and are increasing. Will it be enough? There are a lot of delegates to make up. Mrs Clinton is running out of easy victories, but it is delegates who will nominate the candidate. Even when she "loses" a state, she gains delegates. This is understood, so the question is whether there is enough time and enough surge to overcome her present advantage. Then there is the matter of superdelegates. One presumes some will hold out for Mrs Clinton whatever occurs before the primary. I'm guessing the majority will jump on whatever bandwagon looks to be fullest when the time comes. If Mrs Clinton has more delegates than Mr Sanders when the convention convenes, then they will flock to her side. If the reverse is true, then much may depend upon how great a lead Mr Sanders has. It is in any event a formidable task. That Mr Sanders and his staff are up to the task, I have no doubt: but you have boxed, you know that the better man does not always win.

Rumble? I've been rumbling all along, in my own poor fashion.

-- Mal

MuseRider

(34,095 posts)
126. Just watching now,
Thu Mar 10, 2016, 12:02 PM
Mar 2016

had rehearsal. This is a good debate. Not far enough along to say much except he appears to be fighting back and doing it in Bernie style. 💕 We gave him Kansas, the wave is beginning to cause concern. Bernie wave is coming, better be ready. Yes, I feel very good right now. 😃

lunatica

(53,410 posts)
127. The way I feel as a long, long time Progressive
Thu Mar 10, 2016, 12:17 PM
Mar 2016

Is that I can feel myself tensing and beginning to hold my breath lest I should jinx the rumblings of a revolution I've waited for all my life.

I guess that means I can feel the stirrings of new hope under the scab of cynicism I've carried so long.

 

RoccoR5955

(12,471 posts)
131. I have a correction for you
Thu Mar 10, 2016, 01:20 PM
Mar 2016

H2O man, you wrote: "Political anthropologists believe that species is facing extinction, due to climate change within their party. However, there actually are an estimated eight liberal republicans in the United States."

You should send them to the Hudson Valley, in New York, where I believe you will see quite a mass of them. Many can be found in Westchester, Putnam, Dutchess, Orange and Ulster Counties.

The bulk of them who I have seen and been able to communicate with would vote for Bernie because of his consistency, honesty, and reliability. This is even though they may not agree with some, or most of his policies. This is why I believe that Bernie would stand a better chance in the General Election than Clinton. As far as tRump goes, there is a rare species of RepubliCLOWN here who foam at the mouth, and are probably suffering from rabies that support him. The bulk of the population here dislikes him so much, that they have been bothering the State to rename Trump State park, to Seeger State Park. Most of these are the diehard liberals who are in the area around Putnam County.

Just thought you might find it interesting.

Oilwellian

(12,647 posts)
138. Yay! I was the 300th recommend
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 01:32 PM
Mar 2016

Don't believe I've had that dubious pleasure on DU before. Great piece as always, H2O Man.

blm

(113,015 posts)
141. Been hesitant to make a prediction, but, I think NC is beginning to look good
Sun Mar 13, 2016, 04:21 PM
Mar 2016

for Sanders campaign. He's certainly running strong in my region which has the largest number of D voters.

Always appreciate your posts, Waterman. You do primary the way primary should be done. ; )

Latest Discussions»Retired Forums»2016 Postmortem»Rumble