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The way that Sanders supporters parrot the right wing talking points about Secretary Clinton, sometimes it's hard to tell the difference.

It's leader is Donald Trump. That's what a political movement from the right looks like, it's full of people like David Duke, Ann Coulter, Neo Nazis, White supremacists, etc. Think about that for a second... and tell me you still can't tell the difference.

when they open their mouths and spew the same odious talking points ... it's hard to tell the difference. I didn't say their politics was the same, just the way they attack Secretary Clinton.

I have seen some despicable attacks against Clinton - attacks that were obviously not factual. I have also, however, seen plenty of genuine criticism from progressives that is full of facts to back it up. It depends on what talking points we are discussing. A few specific points here:

It is not really in question that her campaign receives large contributions from groups and corporations that pretty much all of us consider to be corrupt, inhumane and/or just plain awful. It is not really in question that she supported the IWR, or Nafta, or that she supported Welfare reform. The reasons for why she did these things are certainly open to interpretation and debate. A lot of this is a matter of public record and even National/political history. None of these facts are right wing talking points - they're just facts.

In regards to taking the corporate money - I get why she does it. It's insanely expensive to run for President - and until recently, I would not have believed that any candidate could (with any level of success) rely on the American public for their funding and support. Sanders has proven to be an exception, with campaign contributions averaging 27 dollars, somehow he is shattering records. This isn't easy to match in regards to fund raising and financing for one's campaign, so she is taking money where she can get it. I get that - typically, that's just what politicians do, it doesn't make her more or less corrupt than your average politician.

In regards to the Iraq War vote... many people were fooled into believing the hype of the Bush administration. That Iraq had weapons of mass destruction that they were somehow hiding. There was a great deal of anger and grief over 9/11 as well, and a lot of people were looking for targets upon which to visit their vengeance. However, it should have never been about vengeance. People in such positions of responsibility as to vote on whether or not we authorize acts of war... need to take their due diligence seriously. There was available documentation that was not read. There were weapons inspectors begging for more time - there was a large part of the international community telling us the Iraq war was a really, really bad move. There were millions of Americans protesting. There were protests around the world. The previous gulf war and the sanctions we imposed on Iraq had absolutely devastated that Nation and it's people. Diplomatic and humanitarian efforts were the way to go here... they failed, in such a dramatic, miserable manner that it still shocks me.

As for Nafta, well, the flaws there should be obvious. The loss of American jobs, the closing of American companies, another example of so called "free trade deals" that are so common in any capitalist system... and so terribly destructive to the welfare of the public. Was what we ended up with what the Clintons expected? I don't know. Perhaps they acted in good faith, I don't think their intent was evil, but I also don't think it was terribly well thought out.

As for welfare reform... well, there are millions of people around the Country who can tell you how much that sucks. If we were going to reform welfare, it should have been done in such a manner that it better and further enabled those in poverty to survive. The current social safety net, such as it is... is a band aid over a severed limb. The amount of time you can receive assistance for, the qualifications you must meet, the constant scrutiny and contempt from those who are supposed to oversee these program and care for those who receive it's assistance. People surviving on a few hundred bucks a month and a few hundred dollars worth of food stamps.

Everything in this Country that benefits the poor is under attack, often referred to by both popular democrats and republicans as entitlements - as free stuff. My position on that is the same as it has always been... my house is your house. My tax dollars are your tax dollars. The idea is to help each other out, to keep each other going, to move onward and upward together. We can't fix a broken financial system by taking away what little assistance the poor receive - and it IS little.

Overall, the issues of poverty, of economic inequality... are very much why I support Mr. Sanders. It helps that I am now poor - and have often throughout my life been even more so. It helps that I've struggled for years without health insurance, despite some pretty significant medical problems. That I have worked more than sixty hour weeks in years gone by and still couldn't get by. That I was one of those college students who could never finish an education, due to mountains worth of debt.

What it really comes down to is that I believe everyone deserves to have certain things when we have the ability and the wealth to make them possible. Education. Access to health care. Fairer wages. Workers rights. This is why I stand with Sanders.

“Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.”

― Ronald Wright, A Short History of Progress
http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/328134-socialism-never-took-root-in-america-because-the-poor-see

"Temporarily embarrassed millionaires"

Gonna have to look into Mr. Wright's writing.

....gorge on it , all the hate,really.

Sanders for President

....gorge on it , all the hate,really.

Sanders for President

Those so called "talking points" are truths.

Do you have one?

haven't seen the like since.

What's being said is that criticizing clinton is right-wing hate. because clinton isn't just the whole of the party, she is the absolute definition of liberalism, forever.

it's terrifying when you consider the ramifications of that sort of idolatry.

Or endless imperial war.

the one that came from the Hillary Clinton campaign.

That memo stated that since Bernie failed to support Hillary's health care reform efforts back in 1993, then Bernie was to be fair game for anything they could say about him.

And those photos that actually show that Bernie standing with Hillary during the Health Care Reform days? Obviously photo shopped.

You need to realize that according to the DNC, it is okay if anyone supporting Hillary lies about Bernie. But it is not very good if anyone tells unpleasant truths about Hillary!

. . . you are.
You're a racist misogynistic POS for not supporting Hillary -- according to some of them.

If nothing else I have learned over the last 6 months, anyone NOT supporting Hillary by posting 100 posts a day on this forum demanding that she be made President before half of the country has voted in this front-loaded facade of a primary is a racist scumbag misogynistic POS!!!!

I read that right here on the DU.

How a white male (David Brock) who was sexist and racist against a black female (Anita Hill) attacks Bernie supporters by claiming that they're all racist and sexist white males.

dontcha think?

David Brock is a sleazey hit man, that's what he does, it's who he is. And it's why she hired him.

passive-aggressive attempts to adopt a victim posture, while immunizing her from criticism.
This is why these political tricksters get paid so much to do the dirty work.

I have been here since 2001, and I have seen just about everything. I took a lot of pride recently not having anyone on Ignore because I knew things were going to get bad and I needed to toughen up. But I found it was so bad, I could not enjoy being here. I love politics and a good debate on issues. But those two things more and more seemed to be missing and in their stead came a lot of ... let me just say stuff I was not at all interested in reading. So I started putting people on Ignore. I now have so many people on Ignore, it is unbelievable. But once again, I can enjoy DU. So don't let anyone get to you when you can prevent it.

I am so happy to see that you are supporting Bernie Sanders.

Sam

What the fuck else do they have? No way to run on anything positive so smear the opponent in an attempt to bring him down to you level....

and the Clinton campaign are using as a large tool in their dirty tricks box.

His "internet specialists" (legal supposedly, but based on a very loose interpretation of a loop hole)
can be paid by a super-PAC to coordinate directly with her campaign if it is only involved via the internet,

Some of these employees are paid to post an all forms of social media, and often do, especially when it regards the Big Lie tactics when they are used, which rely on repetition of the lie in order to make people believe the lie even when faced with solid facts to the contrary.

Expect these lies to be continuously spread, along with other lies pushed as truth via the Big Lie tactic that they have been employing liberally. (perhaps the only true sentence involving the word liberally in connection with Clinton, a right wing candidate within the Democratic party.)

the product of Artificial Intelligence robots. I'm not saying that such is the case. But, from a programming standpoint, it wouldn't be impossible.

(30 yrs computer programmer and data analyst)

Using nothing more than if/then gosub/return depending on input variables.

Just have Brock write the varied subroutine's text output and depending on the issue raised, or the preferred smear spread, the subroutine would spit out consistent output based on the if x=" political discourse whatever it may be" (not designed to actually argue anything true or original makes that simple, no artificial intelligence required or even desired), but since repetition of the replies that are lies or evasions anyway, and repetition being the key to this tactics success, it would actually work much more efficiently than the less than capable human liars or believers of the official lies or smears spreading the subroutines now (they can at times get slightly off script).

In the rare case of an unexpected input for x, just randomize which subroutine is to be used, I see it done all the time by non program posters, bloggers, and "journalists" online all the time.

Such a simple program would ensure consistency in the lie and thus aid more effectively in the neural imprinting of the desired false belief system designed to program falsehoods in the human brains they target.

I haven't the ability to write old basic anymore (never bothered to learn visual BASIC) and don't know where to find an emulator of the old stuff that will run on windows.

But if I had my old 80486 and the DOS and BASIC software, I could write the shit out of a Big lie / smear campaign with very few lines of numbered code.

I never kept up with programming after around '87 or so, the only programming I have done in the modern era involved specific commands used in 3D modeling software and engineering applications used (in my case) for furniture and mill-work design.

The programming I use is specific to engineering/architectural apps that allow me to change an entire build set of prints to varying specs just by changing some measurement numbers (the program and software changes all related parts and connecting bits in both the 3D rendering and the build or "shop" drawing blueprints, if I say, widen a complicated cabinet by x amount of inches.

But you could write it, easily, if you lacked integrity and worked for David Brock. I just hope we are not giving him ideas.

company profits is cool and to hell with the water quality for the peons. They think it's cool that the Wealthy send our families off to die in wars for profits for the Wealthy. They cheer the Prisons For Profits and think SS should be privatized. They look the other way when we try to talk about poverty or the need for decent health care.

The Party is split with the Conservative Wing willing to sell their souls for a chance to revere the Wealthy.

There have been Hillarian posts here that are actually more concerned about the price of Oil (supporting Fracking) that the Health consequences to the locals or the damage to the environment

Progressive? Liberal? AYFKM?

Part of it is the phony Bernie Supporters posting stuff that is racially offensive. This is not to say that we all can't be unconsciously insensitive at one time or another.

It's really disgusting when race is used as a political tool. But then again I NEVER thought I would hear a Democrat defend Wall Street by saying addressing that issue wouldn't solve racism, etc.

It is much more probable that Clinton would have racist supporters rather than Bernie. Look at Bernie's message. He has spoken out about the atrocities being committed against the black community in the deep south in front of an all white crowd. Other candidates use dog whistles to appeal to that crowd. The dirty campaign tricks that have been engaged in do nothing but divide us and further the continuation of racism.

You would think when the Black Community is under such assault that some things would be off limits.

If we want change in the country we must take a different path. We are sending in our pittances on a regular basis.
We will not stop wanting what is right the most good for the most citizens, social justice et al.

It was a time she was facing a lot of media scrutiny, and he stepped up. That civility hasn't been reciprocated.

and your other fine posts in this thread.

You may be too sincere for a realm of unleashed bullies and trolls.

Its good to see younger folks at DU, there are not enough of your demographic here.

Hillary's campaign and her supporters here and elsewhere have been doing exactly that to Bernie.

And before all the Hillary supporters chime in, yes it is true that Bernie's supporters have sometimes resorted to unfair attacks and right wing sources. It's not all on one side. But IMO the Hillary campaign (not just her supporters) started Swiftboating Bernie early on, and sadly, it has worked out very well for them so far.

I have been a fervent Obama supporter since I joined DU. So this time I'm kind of on the other side. And I'm finding it very shocking, and uncomfortable that people are attacking Bernie with such a cascade of bullshit.

In fact I know Bernie and come partly from his world, I was in between Vermont and New York during the 70s and 80s, went to the college where he decided to run for office, Goddard, and met Bernie in Nicaragua in 1985.

I think I'd know if he had some nasty stuff up his sleeve. He's very clean in his old school way. I've noticed that none of the nattering claims ever get traction, it's just to stir up the dust and paint a negative impression in the media, but there's no gotchas, because there aren't any.

Thanks for the thread, davidthegnome.

who use words that are empty, whose only use is to divide and spread lies. Many of these "Democrats" are really speaking as the Republicans do.

Or is it only happening against Sanders?

To paint Hillary as a racist. I do bring up her record quite often though. Her adoption of the superpredator thory, for example.

There are posters who seem intent on presenting one or the other in the most negative light possible, often using unfair attacks in order to do so.

I have not seen anyone make the claim that Bernie Sanders is a racist, which is obviously preposterous.

He's just not our best candidate at this point in time. It's just that simple for many Democrats like me.

Are we all racists too? Every time I see a "Bernie supporters are embarrassing me" post on Facebook, I see a bunch of Clinton supporters posting. None of them are racists!!!! Nope...not a single one. Fact is: Clinton supporters need to get off their high horses on the issue of race. She is more vulnerable on that issue than Sanders.

Or less racist than Clinton supporters. I also said that Clinton is more vulnerable on race, hence her campaign strategy on the issue...to point fingers at Sanders.

They are not part of Bernie's loud racist contingent

This loud, racist contingent is only an issue to Clinton supporters. I am more realistic. I've heard some racist crap from Clinton supporters too, but I think there are more important negatives than race. I already know Clinton will throw Black people under the bus, if it suits her purposes. So all the hand-wringing is as fake as are her claims of being a progressive...well, one week anyway.

And POC are all racists if we don't back HRC.

I do know enough about race to know when I am being used.

The only glimmer in your post is that in any campaign or movement of millions of people, there are going to be some assholes, and also a decent people who get overly passionate in their expressiveness.

"It may be hard for your viewers to remember how difficult it was for people to talk about HIV/AIDS back in the 1980s and because of both president and Mrs. Reagan — in particular Mrs. Reagan — we started a national conversation, when before nobody would talk about it, nobody wanted to do anything about it, and that too is something I really appreciate with her very effective low-key advocacy. It penetrated the public conscience and people began to say, hey, we have to do something about this too."
Among the ultra rich ironies of her creepy claims about Dutch and Nan is that the same groups that were in the streets demonstrating against the criminal inaction of the Reagan administration were also already going after Donald Trump the current GOP front runner whom most of you thought was a charming figure until his campaign. Bill and Hillary attended social events with him, their daughters are friends. But ACT UP NY went after Trump repeatedly in the 80's, actions at Trump tower, calling out the very elements of Trump the rest of you are figuring out a bit late.

I'm not angry, I'm just making a choice as to whom I prefer, as are you. Yes, I am white but I am certainly not a racist bigot.

You're insulting.

The leading contender for the nomination has always been half a Republican so suddenly single-payer is horrible and the thought of free college is a nightmare. We'll most likely end up electing the status quo candidate and it will be business as usual and that's not good for the majority of us.

What better way (in the Clinton playbook) than to paint your opponent as a racist...or his supporters? If she could have used this tactic against Obama, she would have. Instead she had to adjust it slightly.

Painted themselves by constant race baiting.

My comment was about Clinton's campaign tactics, not meta drama here.

we older folks have been fighting a long time. So glad to have the millenials join the fight. This ain't over yet. Solidarity.

Clinton and the Capitalist are fighting to keep the "booty" in house.

Everyone else is wandering in a hopeless fog they are so tired from the work and deprivation that they don't have much hope or energy. Bernie, who clarifies the situation to the bottom 90% clearly, is trying to rally them to act in concert against the thieves. (seven mile long line to hear Bernie yesterday in Phoenix.)

A side note: Several other industrialized Countries have almost the same financial inequity that America
has. That means that those Capitalist are watching our political scene and putting their money in to
thwarting any attempts to take the power away from the oligarchs and Capitalists.

"How is anything about Sanders or what he is doing promoting racism and/or misogyny? "

All over the INTERNET. Bernie was a college student at the time.

Apologized and moved on.

I recalled that the was highly criticized for once saying that there was a angst in the minds of many Americans. He might have seen the leading edge of the "revolution" that Bernie describes.

I have always felt that American yearned for some political integrity after the nasty Nixon episode.
They got it in Jimmy Carter. I believe that America has thousands of men and women who are just as smart and capable as Carter and Sanders. But, our electoral system is so flawed, we aren't able to
find many good candidates. Take a look at those Republican clowns. Average people recruited off the streets of any town in America would likely yield better politicians than those guys. What about
George Bush?

It wouldn't hurt if they would stop rigging the voting process. Carter said that the American elections
are not audit-able.

It makes me feel ashamed for the human race. nt

For the record: that wasn't it.

If you have some genuine criticism of Mr. Sanders and his campaign, please elaborate.

Some times I'm not sure why I bother.

substance about Bernie's smears. But you obviously won't believe it exists because it doesn't fit the rah rah Oligarch, Wall Street, rich-people-bad-unless-I-like-them bullshit.

Where is this substance of which you speak? I still have yet to see any that isn't based on deeply flawed or inaccurate assertions. Give me something factual, with substance, and I'd be more than happy to read it. If all you're going to do is fling mud, then you aren't doing yourself or your candidate of choice any favors.

Anyway, you have a great day.

Anyway, you have a great day too.