2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumBeware all "experts" who tell you something will happen.
Found a very interesting answer to this question on Quora:
Would Donald Trump defeat Hillary Clinton? Who would win if they face each other in the general election?
I don't know anything about the man who provided the answer, but here is his bio statement:
Matthew Gagnon, Political operative with a decade of experience in nationally significant races
Here is his answer:
Mock Electoral Map
Let's get something straight. The answer to any question like this asked on Quora or anywhere else is always "we don't know." When asked "can this candidate beat that candidate?" the answer is always, and I do mean always, "yes."
Many other people here have declared that, of course, Hillary Clinton would not only beat Trump, but beat him handily. This certainty is nonsense. Can she win? Would she be a nominal favorite? Is she currently leading some important battleground states, according to the polls?
Yes to all.
But just because she can win, and just because she would be a marginal favorite, and just because she's polling well against Trump right now, does not mean she is going to win, that it is at all certain, or that it would in any way be easy for her.
In fact, there are a number of very real scenarios that would result in Donald Trump winning the election.
Now before I go any further, I should mention -- since I guess I have to -- that I do not like Mr. Trump. I did not vote for him in my state's caucus, and I can't imagine myself voting for him under any circumstances. I will never vote for Hillary Clinton for anything -- ever -- but my distaste for Mr. Trump is well established. But, it would be foolish to (as seems to be common on the answers here) allow my distaste for him pervert my view of the politics of this potential race.
--snip--
You will notice that I have given Mrs. Clinton the benefit of the doubt in states like Nevada, Colorado, Iowa and New Mexico, that have an huge Hispanic population, and would (in this hypothetical example) come out for her as they did for Obama.
There are reasons to think that wouldn't happen, and that other factors -- like explosive turnout among blue collar, middle class voters -- would change the calculus in those states. But, for the sake of this example, let's just make the assumption that Trump loses those states.
I also gave Mrs. Clinton Virginia, mostly on the strength of the voters in northern Virginia, and the weight that carries statewide. Again, there is a counter-argument to make there that I think is realistic and logical, but just to demonstrate his electability, let's give it to Clinton.
Even with all of those states going to Clinton, there is a huge problem she faces in rust belt states like Pennsylvania and Michigan, which have a tremendous number of white, blue collar, working class voters who blame free trade, and countries like China and Mexico for their job losses and economic decline.
--snip--
These voters -- a significant number of whom are Democrats, incidentally -- will not vote for Mrs. Clinton, a free trader and the wife of the man who signed NAFTA, when presented a real alternative.
--snip--
The number of these voters who have been depressed, ignored, dismissed, and outright ridiculed is tremendous. And there are a lot of them in states like Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, and Wisconsin. A lot.
That means that these states -- particularly Pennsylvania and Michigan -- which have been Republican targets for nearly thirty years to no avail, have a very real possibility of flipping.
That would represent 36 electoral votes that Clinton would lose, and Trump would gain.
--snip--
Let's talk about polling.
This is even more important today than ten or twenty years ago, as response rates to polls have fallen off a cliff, leading pollsters to rely increasingly on modeling.
If they get that universe wrong, disaster ensues. For example, two weeks before the 2013 Virginia gubernatorial race between Terry McAuliffe and Ken Cuccinelli, McAuliffe was ahead in several polls by double digits. One poll had him up 11 points. Another had him up 15 points. Another, 17 points.
On election day, McAuliffe did win, but he only won by 2.5%.
This has been repeated in state after state, with congressional races, Senate races, gubernatorial races, and even at the presidential level.
--snip--
Pollsters build models based on previous election cycles, who came out to vote in what years for which candidates, and they primarily base their assumptions on those facts.
When you build in the critical problems of increased cell phone only households, entire demographics of people (often conservative) no longer answering polls, and variations of the Bradley effect, you have a very difficult time polling anything accurately these days.
This is a particularly bad problem this year. We aren't talking about the stupidity of the "unskewed polls" that conservatives bought into in 2012, here. That was unscientific, irrational, and wishful thinking. This is something else.
The blue collar, working class voters I mentioned earlier have been actually staying home for several elections now. Models will be built this year assuming the previous few presidential elections are a real guide, and they aren't.
--snip--
Next, let's talk about demographics
Hillary proponents lean on demographics for their belief that she would win. The logic goes, she will win women, she will win Latinos, she will win African-Americans, and she will ride those groups to the Oval Office.
All of those can be true, but they don't mean she wins. In fact, if she won all of those groups by the exact same percentage that Barack Obama won in 2012, she could still lose.
How?
Turnout.
If turnout among those groups is even a couple points lower than it was for President Obama, she is in a world of trouble. If turnout among white, middle class voters is significantly up at the same time, she is really in trouble.
You see, it isn't the percentages of demographics won that matters.
Mitt Romney, for example, won more of the white vote than Ronald Reagan did. It just didn't matter, because there were fewer white people as a share of the total population in 2012 as compared to 1980 and 1984. Beyond that, the turnout numbers for white voters wasn't where it was for Reagan.
President Obama turned out historic numbers of young people, and ethnic minorities. That can not be overstated. People who had never voted. People who had never been engaged in the process. People who felt a deep and strong connection to the candidate.
Will Hillary -- a horrendously bad politician (something even her supporters admit) -- be able to turn those groups out at the same level in 2016? Maybe, but the likelihood is low.
And I need to reiterate just what a threat that defecting blue collar Democrats -- particularly union members in the working class -- are to Hillary. You really think they are going to vote for a free trader over the guy promising to restore the power of American manufacturing by slapping tariffs on imports and protecting American industry from foreign competition?
If you think that... well, you're wrong. That is a huge huge problem for Hillary, especially if Trump can demonstrate ANY ability to keep the Republicans home, and bring people together after the convention. It isn't actually a hard thing for him to do, and if he does it, she is in a lot of trouble.
Read much more including links and citations in the original answer at Quora.
dlwickham
(3,316 posts)Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)My post has nothing to do with Bernie Sanders.
Thanks for playing.
winter is coming
(11,785 posts)Trenzalore
(2,331 posts)Is somehow a general election genius?
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)Why are the first two posts trying to make it as such?
Trenzalore
(2,331 posts)Than things fell apart.
Obama has positive approval ratings right now and the stock market is in the black. Those indicators change, who knows.
Hydra
(14,459 posts)Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)Please let me know what I know, then.
Hydra
(14,459 posts)I found the article to be down to earth and a good reminder- things happen in elections, you can't take anything for granted.
If one is bent on a particular goal, however, it's like the analogy of the hammer and nails. Lots of nails being seen, not so much what is really there.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)There are a lot of variables - and though I don't support Clinton at all, I had never thought that she could lose to Trump, nor have I ever made that argument. The answer provided in the OP actually makes a very compelling point(s) as to why nothing is set in stone, especially during this cycle. Throw in a sizable chunk of the left being uninspired, and we are in big trouble.
Hydra
(14,459 posts)The Hillary campaign is running on the "not as evil as the other guy" line in a year where the establishment is being voted against.
Trump is probably lying about everything he's running on, but he's not one of the establishment. Meanwhile, the Hillary campaign is chasing as many left of Nixon voters away as possible.
Quite the witch's brew there.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)It's actually pretty scary.
The party keeps flipping off the Left, treating Bernie like shit, and then expect to win against Trump, who is gathering his brownshirt army of anti-establishment types, and the party hopes to win against that?
It's quite embarrassing, if not scary.
AZ Progressive
(3,411 posts)Hopefully it would lead to the end of Clintonism.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)however, the post doesn't even talk about that. Even if she didn't have any faults, the Republicans, rightly or wrongly, hate her. They will be motivated to vote against her, and the route to victory is not as clear cut as the common conception is. That's why I found this answer quite interesting.
It's not so cut and dry for a hypothetical normal nominee who's only problem is Republican hatred. Throw in that a sizable chunk of the left who is either pissed off at her, or totally uninspired, and that's a toxic mix for the case that Trump could win a general election. The demographics, polling, etc. are, in my opinion, thoughtfully addressed in OP.