2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumVery intersting opinion piece by a Black man on the Sanders campaign
https://myunclesmaynotapprove.wordpress.com/2016/03/18/why-i-and-i-think-a-lot-of-black-people-dont-feel-the-bern/(Be warned that this is not completely free from controversial opinions and is nsfw)
I won't post an excerpt because there is so much I actually do not agree with, but his opinions are complicated and interesting, and he writes about alot of different issues. I thought I'd share and discuss.
If you are not interested in hearing criticism or and negative words or opinions, this op is not one you should click the link on.
Response to bravenak (Original post)
Post removed
white_wolf
(6,238 posts)I realize Sanders has had trouble reaching AA voters, but I sincerely hope its a difference over issues. I can accept that, but I think it would be vile for him to lose due to perceived racism that simply isn't their on his part.
FrenchieCat
(68,867 posts)But I'm just one AA person, so don't take it to mean anymore than just me saying this....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/110744376
Cha
(295,929 posts)incessant alerting on anything that doesn't show BS in a good light.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,705 posts)The gentleman on that facebook page is a cretinous , racist moron.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)And yeah, that was a real shitty hide.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,705 posts)And I have seen that sentiment expressed before, just not as overtly and ham handedly.
Number23
(24,544 posts)don't actually exist.
And for someone to show -- for the 8,357,254 time -- that they actually DO exist and it was a black woman doing it, obviously some couldn't have that.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,705 posts)redruddyred
(1,615 posts)no one really thinks that sanders is gonna make college free his first term
electing him is largely symbolic
then again, unlike hillary, he doesn't also have to craft his speeches to please his corporate constituents
cheers
politicaljunkie41910
(3,335 posts)After 8 years of obstruction, we need a candidate with a platform that is realistic and who knows how to reach across the aisle and get things done. The time for symbolism has come and gone.
redruddyred
(1,615 posts)with his amendments
frankly i don't think "reaching across the aisle" works, look how it turned out for obama
snowy owl
(2,145 posts)and he will fight for change. When folks do you finally want to start change. You must be pretty happy with the status quo.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,705 posts)Frenchie is citing what somebody else wrote. We need to flesh it out.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,705 posts)whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)That post only has value as an associative smear, feeding the disgusting lies and memes about the nature of Bernie supporters that have been a cornerstone of this campaign. It's obvious why you want to "discuss it".
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)You have no idea if this is really a Bernie supporter yet of course you believe it to be 100% true SMH....
melman
(7,681 posts)totally fake.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)kwassa
(23,340 posts)Gothmog
(144,005 posts)dsc
(52,130 posts)I hope some of those jurors have happen to them what is supposed to be happening when they vote in bad faith, because that was manifestly bad faith.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I think this type of stuff hurts him. His advisors are doing him wrong in my opinion. They do not effectively manage his mesage.
kristopher
(29,798 posts)This thread makes me think of this commercial for some reason.
Cha
(295,929 posts)BS fans can't wrap their heads around that.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)left this country in after 8 years of teabag hell.
Then the republicans promised to fight and obstruct President Obama 24/7 and the scum still do to this day.
Refusing to vote on his SCOTUS pick is their latest unconstitutional, anti-american stunt.
redruddyred
(1,615 posts)teabaggers were the right's response to a black president. no hide or hair of them before 2008.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)Trump himself is one of the lead Birthers, wonder how many AA votes that scumball thinks hes gonna get in the GE?
The campaign ads just write themselves on that asshole Trump!!
Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)redruddyred
(1,615 posts)Dustlawyer
(10,493 posts)[IMG][/IMG]
Cha
(295,929 posts)Because "probably because their lawyers told them to.. " You can't make this shite up..
Thank you for the Pic!
FrenchieCat
(68,867 posts)When Barack Obama never said that?
And what does this have to do with Bernie Sanders, and this article of why Black folks aren't impressed with Bernie Sanders?
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)....on his face, and maybe even some of his glowing comments he said about Clinton.
They're easy to find.
ljm2002
(10,751 posts)...it's why the Hillary supporters here are so eager to post and "discuss" it.
We are shown an image but no link, so there is no way to verify who the person is or what other things they have to say.
On first blush I would say it looks like ratf***ing. But even if not, even if that person is sincerely as racist as they appear to be, I would not accept them as a Bernie supporter. As a fervent Bernie supporter myself, I say we don't need that person or anyone who thinks like they do.
Now I have a question for you: in what universe does this have ANYTHING AT ALL to do with "his advisors"????? In what universe does this have ANYTHING AT ALL to do with "managing his message"???
Random posts on the Internet are NOT UNDER THE CONTROL OF BERNIE'S ADVISORS or anyone else for that matter. Using this sort of thing as a smear against Sanders and his supporters is low. Not surprising, of course, considering the source; but low.
Cha
(295,929 posts)My Black friends know who they want to vote for and it's not BS.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I feel sad
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Cha
(295,929 posts)Starting with wanting President Obama primaried in 2012 and the continual disingenuous bashing of him right up until NOW.
Thanks brave~
Started off on the wrong foot and never fixed it
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)Bernie killed all chances for winning the democratic base with that stunt.
Of course at that time he was still slamming the democratic party as no better than the republican party.
comradebillyboy
(10,119 posts)own unforced errors? Blaming Bernie for Bernie's campaign errors just lets Clinton off the hook because we all know every screw up by the Sanders team is Hillary's fault.
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)It is not AA voters fault that they do not feel the bern. There are many people who are not buying what Sanders is selling
So wanting a more liberal challenger to the President is anti-African American?
RepubliCON-Watch
(559 posts)I feel as though Bernie represents the values that matter deeply in our respective communities. I may not agree with some of the criticisms but it is fair that criticism does strengthen the subject of the critiquing more often than not. His message really hits home in that poverty-stricken neighbourhoods strongly affect the AA community and with his ideas, these areas can see major improvements. Personally, I am tired of hearing about how we should settle for less and keep the status-quo. We need to reboot our economy and political structure and Bernie Sanders IMO is the right person for the job.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)FrenchieCat
(68,867 posts)that has not manifested as of now, that would be helpful...doncha think?
especially since he says that's the only way he can do what he promises.....
Just sayin'...
Did you ever read this that I wrote a while back?
I'd like your take on it.....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/118744812
RepubliCON-Watch
(559 posts)He has a solid criminal justice reform plan. However, he could maybe infiltrate a plan involving rebuilding AA jobs, AA schools, AA path to owning businesses, etc. The only problem is that it would be considered pandering and it would look as if Bernie is somewhat disingenuous. I hope he does continue to rail on AA issues he has addressed thus far and I think his ideas, although indirectly, truly help the AA community the most.
FrenchieCat
(68,867 posts)to infiltrate a plan involving rebuilding AA jobs, AA schools, AA path to owning businesses, etc.
RepubliCON-Watch
(559 posts)if you truly care about those issues to lay out plans. It'll show that he's thinking beyond just winning states, it'll show that these ideas can co-exist and are tenets of a political revolution.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)running for President. Certainly, it can be said that this may be because he's from Vermont. But that's the problem. Black folks aren't waiting for a great white savior to sweep down from Vermont to rescue us. He hasn't been in the trenches with us but now is trying to convince us that he has all of the answers. It rings hollow and makes him seem clueless and condescending.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)RepubliCON-Watch
(559 posts)Although he's been a politician from Vermont, he has fought for Black folks through the Civil Rights Era to addressing how different trade policies, disastrous drug policies and economic injustices hinder the AA community. He's not perfect, but his honesty with the AA community is something I respect from him greatly.
RepubliCON-Watch
(559 posts)I truly understand its premise, however we can't ignore that poverty has hindered our community time and time again. We have to address that and other institutionally racist issues in this nation before going forward with the idea that we are equal footing with whites/elites.
FrenchieCat
(68,867 posts)as it is what leads to poverty....
lack of a level playing field, discrimination in employment and housing....
etc., etc., etc.....
RepubliCON-Watch
(559 posts)I also think that instead of trying to just change racism in America, we could at least change what we can in the process. If this means that we'll gonna be in this fight for the long haul, then so be it cuz I'll be fighting. However, we have to keep addressing poverty, unnecessary imprisonment and so on if we're going to get to that ultimate goal of eroding racism in our politics.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)RepubliCON-Watch
(559 posts)It's how we can make this nation better. This status-quo stuff has got to change quickly if the AA community wants to progress.
FrenchieCat
(68,867 posts)because it would be too hard to pass,
but is willing to entertain so many other promises that are un-passable too,
makes it hard for me to see that race ever played a part in his agenda to begin with....
from where I sit.
RepubliCON-Watch
(559 posts)I was also disappointed in Obama when he shared those similar ideas. Both deserve criticism for that, although as of now, the best reparations program is social equality and economic justice. Otherwise, we need to keep pushing Obama and Sanders to get on board with those ideas.
From your second part, the promises are not un-passable if people are willing to fight and lobby their representatives/senators. That's how a democracy is SUPPOSED to work, but we need people in the government who are willing to represent the voiceless. It's happened before in this nation, especially during the Civil Rights Era, and I'm damn sure we can fight now more than ever.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)It's a difficult thing because there is so much overheated rhetoric. It's best we remain grateful for our differences and our similarities. I too like Sanders and feel his message is outstanding. I've gotten frustrated with some of his outlandish or ignorant supporters' more outrageous claims. But then I've felt the same about some of the more boisterous Clinton supporters' claims as well.
I've examined this from different sides and started out a Sanders supporter. Then I went to undecided and then to Clinton, and now I'm coming back around to Sanders. My state's primary is in June. I probably won't make up my mind until the day before our primary. I'm coming to a conclusion similar to yours. I will vote in November too. Actually that one means most to me including the congressional races. Thanks for your post.
RepubliCON-Watch
(559 posts)Get as many people to vote, no matter who it is. Our democracy depends on it!
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)In my little local area. I'm going to make damn sure my friends vote in the primaries and in November. Hope you enjoy a great weekend.
Cha
(295,929 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)LOL.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)lovemydog
(11,833 posts)I agree it's funny as heck. I like reading differing views. I'm picturing this writer as a great stand-up comedian with a lot of good points that hit home.
Cha
(295,929 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)uponit7771
(90,225 posts)lovemydog
(11,833 posts)It's funny and a lot of the humor is on point.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)lovemydog
(11,833 posts)This one too: 'Lots of our aunts and uncles took the same damn pictures, and we wouldnt think that made them qualified to be president either.'
bravenak
(34,648 posts)He thinks things I think but cant express like that.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)Seriously, some of those photos just had me going: wtf? that is some crazy shit right there. I love that about great humor. Makes you think & laugh at the same time. Don't sell yourself short. Some of the stuff you write gets me laughing my ass off too.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)We are very funny. I still think about your talk like Trump thing. Oh hell yeah.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)Haha!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Or make it like broad city but with me and you. We could terrorize an entire city!! Think of the fun!!
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)Now I gotta watch broad city. Have a great weekend.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)msongs
(67,199 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)I laughed so much
shadowandblossom
(718 posts)It was interesting to read. Still learning and growing but there are some things I think I'm just not going to get. Here is another person's perspective on the same subject that I came across when I was curious about the demographic differences going on with voting.
https://www.reddit.com/r/NeutralPolitics/comments/472fj6/why_isnt_bernie_sanders_doing_well_with_black/
bravenak
(34,648 posts)It was spot on in so many ways
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Better this way than extra harsh.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Last edited Sat Mar 19, 2016, 05:26 AM - Edit history (1)
Yes, that's it exactly.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Like, I started thinking he might be my relative. And I am serious.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)First he's going to study HVAC repair. Then he's going to do the IBEW apprenticeship*. Then he's going to be a paralegal. Then he's going to get TIPS certification and bartend until he can save up to open his own bar. Then...
All of these ideas are perfectly good ideas, but they have two things in common:
1. He mistakenly believes that if he can just make one of them happen, his horrific lack of financial discipline will no longer be relevant
2. He never does them even though he's perfectly capable of it. He lights up and plays World of Warcraft until he has to put on his hairnet and nametag for the next shift.
* side note to anybody looking for work: there is no age limit on the IBEW apprenticeship program, and halls literally all over the country are absolutely hurting for apprentices. My brother can't man his jobs and wants me to tell anybody interested to stop dreaming and go for it.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)But mine always needs twenty bucks that he's gonna pay me right back.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)to fund it. No business plan, no design, no budget, no staff, but he wants someone to invest in his "vision."
bravenak
(34,648 posts)We all might be related!
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)I love rhe comments anout throwing shade at President Obama
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Gothmog
(144,005 posts)Cha
(295,929 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Where he at, Bernie?
steve2470
(37,457 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Uncle Joe
(58,112 posts)on the ability for people of all races to grow and unite preferring to stay with the "comfortable" status quo establishment even though he condemns it as well.
True Hillary has some shit in her past. Im pretty sure she says nigger when were not around. But you know what. You do to. Real talk we dont really trust none of yall politicians black or white. All of yall are full of shit to us. All this pie in the sky revolution nonsense sounds like Iggy Azalea rapping Blacker the Berry in our ears. None of you cared so much about our vote until you realized it affected your desires for who you wanted the white house.
Fiq states a contradictory point of view
To all the Berniephiles out there the following message is for you. Warning: contrary to popular belief, black people are not a monolith so what I offer here is pure speculation.
It really comes down to this: Black people are not impressed with Bernie Sanders.
Furthermore he is wrong about Jessie Jackson
Black people did vote for him as did the overwhelming white state of Vermont for example, Jessie was only the second African American to run for the Presidency after Shirley Chisholm and he came closest to being nominated for the Presidency up until Senator Obama ran 20 years later.
Jessie won three-five contests in 1984 and eleven states in 1988 before he dropped out during a time when African Americans made up a smaller % of our nation's population.
As for my own beliefs, I don't blame African Americans, in my book the corporate media conglomerates are the primary culprit and Fiq despite his cynical belief of white society in general and government's treatment of African Americans poses no query as to this exclusive club of white billionaires' propaganda power in shaping people of all races' perception.
Bernie while still not where he wants or needs to be, does better with African Americans in the North than those in the South, would more conservative media in the South play a role in this?
I believe so.
Thanks for the thread, bravenak.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)We do not all vote the same but about eighty percent of us do, more in the deep south. Our reasons for this voting patter is terribly complex and needs to be viewed through the lens of race.
When the Clintons came in we had just spent eight years in the seven hells with reagan. The switch to the Clintons was like a dawn of a new day. He actually liked us. And worked with us. Not everything went well but we can deal with them because they respect us. They need us. They do not tell us what we need they ask us what we need.
See, we do not look up at billionaires as the oligarchy. We look at the white power structures our oligarchy. At white supremacy and institutional racism as our oligarchy. Unless you are willing to recognize our oligarchy as just as bad as yours, we cannot join you.
Cha
(295,929 posts)actually the same reasons I'm not.
Doesn't make him conservative now does it?
It is a new meme about us
Uncle Joe
(58,112 posts)1. disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc., or to restore traditional ones, and to limit change.
2. cautiously moderate or purposefully low:
a conservative estimate.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/conservative?s=t
uponit7771
(90,225 posts)... president as conservative or wanting the status quo.
Only from a mostly white male perspective can mindset be grasped, she was right... how in the hell is she part of the establishment
The racial and gender establishment in the DNC is having its temper tantrum right now and bucking agianst the true revolution, hopefully they'll calm down before Nov
Uncle Joe
(58,112 posts)they're women?
The same could be said for Margaret Thatcher.
I'm not suggesting that Hillary is their equivalent on the political scale but electing a first of anything is only of symbolic importance, in and of itself has no bearing on whether something is liberal, moderate, progressive or conservative.
As for the establishment argument, gender is the only difference in regards to Hillary, she is most certainly part of our dysfunctional establishment.
uponit7771
(90,225 posts)... ignoring her mostly progressive past and history and just going along with the bash Hillary cause she's Hillary crowd.
Her mostly progressive record is established and noted... a myriad of times in sundry places.
Gender is a big difference and Sanders being part of DC for damn near 30 years doesn't delineate him from her.
I've been consistent; I'm not going to vote for slightly better in 3 or 4 categories
Uncle Joe
(58,112 posts)deference to corporate interests over the people both here and abroad, unfettered free trade, exorbitant speaking fees, the Clinton Foundation's ties to weapon sales, welfare reform, supporting mass incarceration, her ties to lobbyists with the for profit prison industry, the Keystone Pipeline, fracking, super pacs, mega-donors from Wall Street, support of the for profit "health" insurance industry's stranglehold on health care and a host of other issues suggest otherwise.
Hillary's penchant for regime change and waging war is not more liberal or progressive than Thatcher.
Bernie has consistently argued against war except in rare cases insofar as going into Afghanistan to take on Al Qaueda after 9/11 and Bosnia to prevent massacre, with Bernie war has been and is a last resort.
Bernie's long career and if you wish I will provide video evidence has been in championing the downtrodden, those living in poverty, rebuilding our middle class, taking on the big banks and their reckless speculation which crashed our economy, being against our dysfunctional campaign finance system and the mega-dollars corrupting influence on the electoral process and in turn our government, Bernie has promoted the fight against climate change much more aggressively than Hillary citing it in a debate as the greatest threat against our nation.
These are just some of the critical issues that separate the candidates regardless of gender, it's more than 3 or 4 categories and they have profound impacts on our society.
Uncle Joe
(58,112 posts)what we need, after decades of listening and Bernie's economic policy proposals meshes with what Martin Luther King said we need.
Fiq criticizes Bernie for doing what you state he doesn't, when Black Lives Matter interrupted his rally, Bernie ceded the podium and for some time let them speak their mind, Fiq views this as a sign of weakness not strength, I disagree on that point, Bernie listened.
Fiq is gravely mistaken if he believes that Bernie would grant the same courtesy to a Republican interrupter.
Afterward Bernie met with African Americans including members of BLM in regards to their needs and addressed it in every speech since in regards to institutional racism and how our nation needs to address these injustices.
The white power structures are controlled by the billionaires, as in the case of the corporate media conglomerates giving billions of dollars in free airtime to the racist Trump, always playing on race in the "horse race" as a divider instead of the critical issues of the day including institutional racism, poverty, climate change the corruption of government from mega dollars, you can't effectively take on the former without challenging the latter.
The billionaire oligarchy which has overwhelming control of our government and the electoral process will never cede white power structures except on a most superficial basis, their power springs from keeping the people divided.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)"Unless you are willing to recognize our oligarchy as just as bad as yours, we cannot join you."
Damn.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)But.... Yeah right.
I like that pic I'm gonna copy it.
Cha
(295,929 posts)Thank you, Fiq. I'm pretty sure Hillary does not insult African Americans when they're not around, though.
As a Scotch Irish lass I can say BS throwing shade on President Obama was what turned me totally of his rhetoric.. He wanted Obama primaried in 2012 for disingenuous bullshite. Shows me his thinking isn't sound and he's proven that to be more than true ever since".
bravenak
(34,648 posts)That was the stuff I disagreed with myself.
And that other stuff? The excerpt? Spot on. It bothers me that she has to watch everthing she wears but he can just come as is and it's called authentic. She could not do that.
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)Cha
(295,929 posts)worth it to give Fiq some of our feedback.
uponit7771
(90,225 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)uponit7771
(90,225 posts)... establishment in the DNC will get over their temper tantrum soon though... well, most of them I hope.
Im pretty sure she says nigger when were not around. But you know what. You do to.
lofl !! This is exactly what my brother said!!!
My husband says that about all of them.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)And it's way too perfect.
qdouble
(891 posts)Beyond that, a very large portion of black voters aren't far left liberals or socialists... Hillary being a moderate democrat makes her way more representative of 30+ year old black voters than Bernie. The reason why the overwhelming majority of blacks identify or lean democrat is it would make no sense to associate with a the party of racists (republicans)... not because blacks are hyper-liberal.
Also, even though there were unintended consequences behind some of the Clinton's policies in the 90's, most blacks who are old enough to remember that time period won't buy into the slander that Bill/Hillary don't care about black people. Their connection to the black community is much more evident than posting a civil rights picture of Bernie that no one was aware of.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)The connection is way more valuable than old photos.
stonecutter357
(12,682 posts)DemonGoddess
(4,640 posts)EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Especially this:
and this:
and this:
and this:
Did I mention I love this piece?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)seaglass
(8,170 posts)On Sat Mar 19, 2016, 08:31 AM an alert was sent on the following post:
Very intersting opinion piece by a Black man on the Sanders campaign
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511529186
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
This is not an opinion piece, it is a hit piece. The whole article is garbage, but what stands out as making this over-the-top and inappropriate is the overtone of a swiftboating campaign against the well documented civil rights record of Bernie Sanders. Reducing it to "he took pictures with MLK" and whatnot. I should add that I seriously doubt that the author of this piece is who he claims to be. Game of Thrones references? WTF? - The person who posted the article is a well known serial disruptor, who would be on a timeout right now if not for the pardon issued by the admins (see Transparency page), and who has openly admitted that she believes none of the things she posts but does so only to generate negative responses ("trolling" . Shit like this fits that pattern exactly.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Mar 19, 2016, 08:40 AM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: frankly i think the blogpost is crap, but i'm sick of all the hides here
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I see you alerter. This is of course an opinion piece and Bravenak states that she doesn't agree with it all. What's the problem?
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The bros will hide this, but for no reason. It's an opinion piece, it makes some very good points. The poster was very clear about the fact that all might not like it. It won't last in the echo chamber, though, regardless of the changes to the "new DU."
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Nothing wrong with the DU post. I didn't read the article though.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)sufrommich
(22,871 posts)alert. If you do,this bogus alert will go to Admins to review and they can see who made the alert.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)That is total abuse of the alert system. SHM
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)joshcryer
(62,265 posts)workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)Thanks for bringing it here
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Major Nikon
(36,814 posts)On Sat Mar 19, 2016, 08:31 AM an alert was sent on the following post:
Very intersting opinion piece by a Black man on the Sanders campaign
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511529186
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
This is not an opinion piece, it is a hit piece. The whole article is garbage, but what stands out as making this over-the-top and inappropriate is the overtone of a swiftboating campaign against the well documented civil rights record of Bernie Sanders. Reducing it to "he took pictures with MLK" and whatnot. I should add that I seriously doubt that the author of this piece is who he claims to be. Game of Thrones references? WTF? - The person who posted the article is a well known serial disruptor, who would be on a timeout right now if not for the pardon issued by the admins (see Transparency page), and who has openly admitted that she believes none of the things she posts but does so only to generate negative responses ("trolling" . Shit like this fits that pattern exactly.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Mar 19, 2016, 08:40 AM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: frankly i think the blogpost is crap, but i'm sick of all the hides here
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I see you alerter. This is of course an opinion piece and Bravenak states that she doesn't agree with it all. What's the problem?
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The bros will hide this, but for no reason. It's an opinion piece, it makes some very good points. The poster was very clear about the fact that all might not like it. It won't last in the echo chamber, though, regardless of the changes to the "new DU."
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Nothing wrong with the DU post. I didn't read the article though.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)I don't. It begs an interesting question though, if video had emerged of Sanders going on some horrible racist rant decades ago, would that be considered as irrelevant as the photos of him in civil rights protests? I'll bet not.
The author justifies his claims about Sanders' image with the black community by filtering everything through his own perception, often distorting the past. For example:
Sanders did far more than pose for some photographs.
A lot of dubious rationalization:
He's attacking Sanders for living in the wrong place.
And he managed to put in a few straight-up lies as well:
The whole article is packed with bullshit. Hey, it's his article--he can write whatever he wants and hold any opinion he likes. But as far as illuminating why Sanders has such poor appeal in the black community, it's not very helpful.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Imma just say, that I agree. I do not think either think that or say that to themselves. Or to anyone. That is why I put a disclaimer saying it was controversial and I do not agree with everything.
1. If we found a rant of ANYBODY from 40 years ago, I do not think it would be very relevant at all, except maybe to show how much growth they had achieved in the intervening years. So, yes, pretty much, it would be irrelevany in my view. I think Robert Byrd shows that people can change.
2. Of course it is through his own filter, he is a minority and we often view thing differently than whites do. I can say from anecdotal experience, he is correct as far as I can tell you. We are very hard to impress. People need to remember, we came from slaves. Many if us can track our families back to the plantations we came from, at least on one branch or another. We have stories passed down of ancestors running to freedom through grave danger. Or living in jim crow. Or a lynched relative. We are HARD TO IMPRESS. Our lives are a march for freedom, our existance is a revolutionary act in itself. Getting arrested for just living our lives is a fact of life. No protest photos will impress people who have to protest just to get served at Denny's.
3. Sanders had a choice of where to live and chose there. I have no idea what the issue is here.
4. What dent has he made in the system?
It is an opinion piece.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)If participating in the civil rights movement 50 years ago is irrelevant now, does that apply to the participation of people like John Lewis and Jessie Jackson as well? Or is it only the white jew who is irrelevant?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)They are still in it fighting for marginalized African americans. Nobody deserves more credit for black liberation THAN BLACKS DO THEMSELVES. So this thing where folks want to make it a contest, or try to force us to be enthralled, is quite bizarre and off putting. It almost feels like people think we own him something, and that we are INGRATES, if we are not super dooper facinated by his civil rights record. We often save the top billing for OUR OWN civil rights heroes and do not like people trying to force us to be extra grateful. We thank him for his help but that is not a reason to vote for anybody.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)It's true. That said, the wholesale rejection of Sanders early participation mostly seems to be a way to neutralize him so Hillary can look as good.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)on that history. It is offensive to constantly be told that because some guy marched years ago, you cannot criticize him ever. Nothing he says is wrong. In fact, if he makes a mistake, back out comes the "HE MARCHED FOR YOUR RIGHTS!', mantra, and they attack and attack the actual black person over civil rights in the name of 'correcting the record'.
It is at the point where if you even think about criticizing him they will track you down to ever site u ever posted on and try to use old posts to use as a club to try to intimidate you from criticizing Bernie. They will harass civil rights legends and call them sell outs as if Bernie is the civil rights legend and John Lewis is merely a background player. They call him the heir of MLK. They will send letters to my home. I am no where NEAR THE ONLY ONE WHO HAS EXPERIENCED IT. If you are black and aware politically, and not a bernie supporter? You have most certinly experienced it full blast. Why is he not fighting for our rights? Why is he silent with all of this oppression going on? Why does he refuse to answrr questions about how blacks are tired of the stuff they deal with in his name? Where is he? Does he know and not care? If he does not know, why pick him to lead?
I find him to be DISTANT. A civil rights champ or leader ALWAYS worries about how marginalized folks are treated AMONG HIS OWN RANKS AND BASE. I am SKEPTICAL
I am absolutely sick of dealing with anything to do with him at this point. It is a wash in my view.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)True - It was a mistake for white progressives to throw his participation (minimal or not) at black voters. I can see it was obnoxious and insulting, and it didn't help.
Untrue - "I am absolutely sick of dealing with anything to do with him at this point."
Sorry, but your posting habits say otherwise.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I fight it until it is DONE. We can either end this shit and move on and everybody stop and get it together, or people like me can point it out day after day after day after day after day after day after day until people are tired of the people who act like that ruining shit for everybody. Because I refuse to suffer in silence or to ignore it. By the time my kids die, I want this type of shit to be a distant memory. If I have to run my mouth until people beg me to please stfu, I will.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)I encourage you to walk it. I personally don't agree, and will seek a different path to a better world. Peace.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Anybody putting faith in a politician to solve shit is screwed before they start walkin
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)From one shit stirrer to another, good tussle. Some of your responses did give me some things to ponder.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)MaggieD
(7,393 posts)You have to actually give a damn and do something AFTER the marching is over. It's the exact same thing with LGBT people.
And you want to really piss people off? Ignore them and then tell your supporters that you were a "champion" for those you ignored.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)To cast Bernie as a giant of the civil rights movement is a mistake. For me, his history is about character. And yes, real character is still present after 50 years. That's the meaning of what he did back then.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)That's why he lost.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)You never dreamed he'd get this far.
kath
(10,565 posts)hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)Point-by-point:
1. I'm glad to hear that, but you're exceptional. A video like that would be used to crucify any politician in the public eye.
2. The photos aren't the point. During the civil rights era, white people in Sanders' position were pressured to just go with the flow and treat black people like dirt. Sanders demonstrated that in the face of that kind of pressure he has the morality and follow-through to tell people around him that they're wrong. Going so far as getting arrested. The photos are simply proof of that.
Sanders hasn't been parading around those photos for political gain all these years, though he certainly could have, so I find it hard to believe that his history could be fairly summed up as "protest photos."
And they're consistent with his behavior over the years--he opposed the Iraq war when nearly everyone was shouting "traitor" at him. Turns out he was right. He opposed DOMA when everyone was shouting at him. Turns out he was right. And he has been making noise about income inequality since he's been in the public eye despite people mocking him and calling him a kook--and today everyone's talking about the problems posed by income inequality--turns out he was right.
So diminishing another person's clear morality as "took a few pictures with civil rights leaders" is wildly dishonest.
3. I have no idea what the issue here is either, but when people want to criticize Sanders on race, his residency gets trotted out every time, including in the piece you linked.
4. Cancer registries, low income energy assistance, extensive effort to repair the VA, founding member of the congressional progressive caucus, etc.
I realize it's an opinion piece, but it's also repeating a wide swath of falsehoods. Wrapping those up in an opinion piece doesn't grant a pass--it's still very dishonest.
Koinos
(2,792 posts)Lots to think about. In order to be president, you have to try to understand all the people you intend to serve. We all have blind spots, but the important thing is to keep trying to open our eyes. That requires humility, an open mind, and a willingness to listen. One of Sanders' biggest mistakes was to write off Democratic voters in southern states. A would-be president can't write off anyone, anywhere. A campaign can't let itself become an exclusive club.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Everybody will make mistakes, but correcting ourselves takes a willingness to learn from others. I wish he had not written off the south. His campaign staff who advised him did him wrong in many ways.
Koinos
(2,792 posts)Campaign managers should manage the campaign and steer the candidate away from controversies. Instead, Devine and Weaver talk too much, and they actually cause rather than prevent controversies. They lack finesse, diplomacy, and tact. I'm not sure how you can appeal to diverse groups or win an election without those traits. Strategies should be inclusive, rather than exclusive.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)He is unable to help a candidate connect to diverse groups and is rather insensitiv himself
Koinos
(2,792 posts)That would give the appearance of a campaign in trouble.
But Sanders should have shown Devine the door a long time ago. Devine is an albatross.
I honestly believe that Sanders is a better man than the one portrayed by his campaign, which became too reliant on big rallies and preaching to the choir.
And what is the percentage of women and minorities among his closest advisors? I haven't seen that information.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I have no idea how many women or minorities on staff but I have been asking and looking for months.
Koinos
(2,792 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Koinos
(2,792 posts)There are a lot of things I don't like about Clinton, but she is a good listener. She solicits many different points of view. That is the best way to make friends and influence people, which is essential in politics.
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)You don't stay around a politician that long unless you like them and care about them. Weaver has done and said some questionable thing but I give him a pass,,,he actually gives a shit about Sanders
Devine is a snake and more of a mercenary (and a bit of a loser)...and this is kind of the same strategy that he advised Al Gore in 2000.
Koinos
(2,792 posts)Devine seems to be the biggest winner (financially) in all the campaigns he has managed. It is my understanding that Devine approached Sanders initially, and not the other way around. Maybe Devine saw an opportunity there. He apparently talked Sanders into a few things.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Stuckinthebush
(10,816 posts)My god that was powerful. So many good lines.
"We are not impressed with Bernies grand sweeping plans for change. First off we went for that with Obama in 2008 and we only got about 40% of what we were promised. Bernie is no Barrack Obama. In fact we cant help but notice how often Mr. Sanders has thrown shade at Barrack Obama. He sounds like that one uncle who always has a business idea but no business plan and no bank loan."
My favorite paragraph:
We are simply not impressed with Bernie. Bernie is Ned Stark talking honor and duty to Cersie Lannister right before she put his head on a pike. He is a stripper telling us everything we want to hear for us to spend that money. He is the kid in elementary school running for class president, promising to make recess 3 hours long. Bernie is the recent graduate from a small liberal arts college that read some Karl Marx, and Emmerson, and Voltaire in undergrad, but never got around to reading Carter G. Woodson, bell hooks, Derrick Bell, or Alice Walker. Then, with hope and fire in his eyes he joins teach for America. He brings his ass to the 9th ward in New Orleans, or the Bluff in Atlanta, or Chicagos Westside. He enters the classroom and sees his new students who he just knows are waiting for a person like him to come and save them, show them everything they didnt know they ever wanted and needed from the world around them. Then hell do the Nene with them and they will love him forever. Of course they see immediately that he really has no clue what hes in for. He is their third such teacher. They dont respond to his impractical and overly simple solutions to the infinitely complex problems that they face. They dont have the background experiences to make sense of the lesson planning ideas he got from an Upworthy article. They see right through his facade and he is gone after one term.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)It basically said everything we have been saying for months. With witty references...
Stuckinthebush
(10,816 posts)Just know that I appreciate your voice and am so damn glad you are here, Bravenak. Thanks for finding and posting such thought provoking articles. The animosity you receive is evidence of the amount of cognitive dissonance you cause. Keep it up!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)We all know I ain't perfect, I make my mistakes, but I love discussing thing like this. I feel like we are on the cusp of a coming together, and it is painful and messy but we will learn from each other, and be better for it.
I have allowed myself to be drawn into negativity (I am done with that and my ignore list is getting long, lol), but I think it is time to ignore most bullshit and just find good discissions with people. And speak freely even if we say dumb stuff. As long as we talk it out, we will grow stronger as a group. And things will flow from there.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Thanks
bravenak
(34,648 posts)go read something they did not want to read. Good morning, though!
(You know which part was just plain bullshit. They certainly do not call us nwords in private. I think that was very over the top and the author probably will wish they could take that back later)
thesquanderer
(11,955 posts)that polling has shown that Sanders and Clinton are equal in favorability percentage among Blacks who are familiar with both of them. The problem is, you can only vote for one person, and even if someone likes Bernie, that doesn't mean they like him enough to choose him over Hillary.
So I'd suggest that maybe the article is wrong about so much of the AA community not being "impressed" by Bernie, it could be largely that people are reasonably impressed but simply like Hillary even more, as the combination of that polling along with the actual election results would imply.
Also, of course, as always, it's not a monolithic community. In Michigan, while HRC still won the AA vote, Bernie did get about 30%, which is by no means an insignificant number of people.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)But we have a longer term relationship with her. She makes mistakes but tries to fix them. We do not know how he would act if he made similar mistakes because we have not dealt with him enough.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)kath
(10,565 posts)This is a little piece written by bravenak on 3/11/2016 at Frontpage Mag about Bernie's supporters (Frontpage Mag is an outlet for the extremely vile rightwinger David Horowitz)
Look at the racist comments here. I did not know jews hated us blacks so much. Good to know. I will return it in kind. There are so few of them It's a wonder they have the gall to think about being racist against blacks.
Bravenak, Frontpage Mag 6 Comments
Fundie Index: 10
http://www.fstdt.com/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=117360 (*)
(*) What is fstdt? " An archive of the most hilarious, bizarre, ignorant, bigoted, and terrifying quotes from fundies all over the internet! The FSTDT archive is the largest collection of fundie quotes on the planet."
One of our own DUers made it to a collection of the most vile, bigoted quotes out there. We should be so proud!!
progressoid
(49,827 posts)kath
(10,565 posts)hours, eh?
EndElectoral
(4,213 posts)Yes, he did. He saw things he thought were wrong and wanted them corrected. That bothered you. I respect a man for standing up for what he thinks is right, even if it means standing up to the President.
I'm not going to try and persuade any AA person to change their mind except about one thing. You should have voted for Jesse Jackson. We would have avoided a lot of problems if you had.
uponit7771
(90,225 posts)... the premise that the historically and digitally gerrymandered GOP congress was of no affect on his policies.
That's the central premise of his campaign; that people will sway congress, they wont... that's fantasy.
Throwing shade is publicly dissing an acquaintance with mostly disengenuous critiques to bolsters ones own image; IE Cornell West
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Of course that doesn't matter somehow...
uponit7771
(90,225 posts)... expected because they're running against each other.
Sanders had no reason to "throw shade" when he said he'd support a primary against Obama multiple times, when he called him weak when dealing with the historically gerrymandered GOP congress and when he called him righward.
and
Cornell West, that's just a slap in the face
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)whatever you say...
uponit7771
(90,225 posts)whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)I mean, if it's a sin to challenge Obama in any way, it seems running against him is a direct repudiation of his performance. Facts matter.
uponit7771
(90,225 posts)Strawman, no one said it was a sin to challenge Obama just don't do it in a disingenuous way as Sanders has done.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Let us know when Sanders says "A few years ago, this guy would have been carrying our bags.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Or that white folks dont know what it's like to live in the ghetto? Or 'I SAID BLACK FIFTY TIMES!!'
Or when his campaign peeps decided to basically say the South was not important to his campaign? Or that he would do better with northern blacks? Or when he lost in SC (because of black voters)and told his nice monochromatic (mostly non dark folks)crowd that they were 'TOO SMART' to not vote for him ( I know folks pretend we are not allowed to be offended, we xan only be offended at what they direct us to b offended by)?
Now. If he had said that he said the wrong thing I would accept that. But constantly bringing up one thing she said while completely ignoring hs stuff is a double standard and does not fly
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)There's a difference between clumsy language from someone who is well meaning, and an intentional bigoted statement. Also, given the context of the "too smart" statement, I don't buy that it was meant as a slight to southern blacks. But we can disagree.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)And she actually apologized. Something he has never done.
Cowpunk
(718 posts)That's what I took away from this article. I followed all the hyperlinks in the article that supposedly show Sanders "throwing shade", and all he was doing, every single time, was making a progressive critique of the President's policies and practices. So now I see why this article is so popular here-we're right back to the good old Obama wars. It's the loyalists saying "Chill out, Obama's got this" versus those who say "Obama needs pressure from the left to do the right thing." To the loyalists, Bernie is just another hater making common cause with Obama's enemies on the right, not the loyal opposition trying to keep the President on a more progressive path.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)In eighty four, I was a toddler.
We could not vote for him. And, we might not have if we did not feel like he had a chance. I like Jesse.
pandr32
(11,447 posts)"We are not impressed with Bernies grand sweeping plans for change. First off we went for that with Obama in 2008 and we only got about 40% of what we were promised. Bernie is no Barrack Obama. In fact we cant help but notice how often Mr. Sanders has thrown shade at Barrack Obama. He sounds like that one uncle who always has a business idea but no business plan and no bank loan...We dont think he will heroically pry power from a system that he worked in for 25 years without making a dent. Why should we truly believe that Sanders of all people is the one to accomplish this? What has he shown us as a senator in the mighty state of Vermont to support this type of gumption?"
I couldn't agree more.
What was that old wives' cliche? "If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is!"
Anybody can promise anything. Doing things takes more than talk.
pandr32
(11,447 posts)Hillary Clinton has been working hard to not "over-promise" in order to win. She has been working hard meeting with many different groups of people and looking at all kinds of problems. Her intent is to "walk the walk" and not just "talk the talk!"
It will be key to having support in the first midterm for the Congressional coalition that supports her. If Madame President Clinton tees off successfully we won't see a midterm slaughter that would weaken her support to push her progressive agenda through--and hopefully through a second term! We need to hold steady on course..."Thanks Obama!"
uponit7771
(90,225 posts)...gumption?"
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)They voted, that is 86% of them voted to nominate Bernie for president.
Vermonters who know Bernie best are almost totally behind him. They are best situated to judge his accomplishments in Congress.
Feel the Bern!
LexVegas
(6,005 posts)comradebillyboy
(10,119 posts)Keep up the good fight bravenak
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I wanna find another good one
ismnotwasm
(41,921 posts)That was heartbreakingly raw no matter who one is supporting for president, a very good read. I think there is a broader message there than for just Sanders and Sanders people and I am very glad you posted this
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I hope that we can keep a dialog going after the election. I will make sure we do even if I have to write shit myself
ismnotwasm
(41,921 posts)The conversation needs to continue , because it's a far larger and longer conversation than the one about this election cycle. The topic of race and racism always has been--or should be, anyway.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)My favorite part:
"He sounds like that one uncle who always has a business idea but no business plan and no bank loan. We dont think his plans will ever come to fruition. We dont think he will pass trillions of dollars of new spending by raising trillions of dollars of new tax revenue from white capitalist power structures that have been running their Ponzi schemes for generations. We dont think he will heroically pry power from a system that he worked in for 25 years without making a dent."
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Finally!!
KeepItReal
(7,769 posts)So is everyone agreeing and REC'ing this OP disagreeing with the anonymous blogger "Fiq Blerdman" that Bernie and Hillary are both calling us the N-word when Black people are not around?
Is everyone agreeing and REC'ing this OP also disagreeing with "Fiq Blerdman" that Hillary is the "lesser of two evils"?
I'm sorry but saying you don't agree with so much of it, and then posting it anyway, doesn't give you a pass. You would get kicked off DU if you had posted this as an original thread.
ismnotwasm
(41,921 posts)KeepItReal
(7,769 posts)Just because the post is primarily anti-Bernie Sanders, it does Sec. Hillary Clinton no justice, either.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I use ignore and will try it out right this second.
KeepItReal
(7,769 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Anything else you need to get off your chest this morning?
KeepItReal
(7,769 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)Great piece. Thanks for posting it.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)HassleCat
(6,409 posts)"Hillary needs us. She has few others in her corner. In a way she is more beholden to the black vote than Obama was. This is a powerful position that is the product of political caprice. If she plays us shes done. Shes predictable and familiar. We cant say the same about Sanders."
And that's fine. That's the way politics is done in the US of A. Most of us don't like to admit it, and black people are more honest about it than other demographics. Sanders is trying to upset the relationship established between many white politicians and black voters, and that upsets the white politicians, of course, but -- Surprise! -- it upsets many of the black voters, too. By the way, there is nothing really offensive in the linked article, as far as I can see. Most of it makes perfect sense. You can say, "But...but...but... it shouldn't be that way!" But it is that way.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Pretty much
serbbral
(260 posts)Event though, I voted for Sanders I thought that many of the OP's points were on point. He said some things that needed to be said.
floppyboo
(2,461 posts)I was reading through all the negativity towards Sanders, waiting for the next paragraph to explain why Hillary is better - how she has proven herself to earn 'the better' perception. She's mentioned in the last couple of paragraphs. And the author concludes with:
"To black people, surviving in America is a series of choosing between the lesser of two evils. To most of us that person is Hillary Clinton. If all else fails we know one thing. Hillary needs us. She has few others in her corner. In a way she is more beholden to the black vote than Obama was. This is a powerful position that is the product of political caprice. If she plays us shes done. Shes predictable and familiar. We cant say the same about Sanders."
I can sympathize (note: I did not say empathize) with the anger, and yet I find it sad that, to some, looking for a way out of the owner relationship is an invisible door. Counting on Hillary being 'beholden' to you is NOT moving forward. It's a revenge mentality, imho.
TCJ70
(4,387 posts)...the author says she's predictable, but not how. What does this author expect? If they expect nothing, they're being used, plain and simple. They've also bought into it for some reason.
floppyboo
(2,461 posts)He expects Hillary to be the black vote's bitch. I'm probably too jaded to put much faith in that.
TCJ70
(4,387 posts)...I do think that pandering is a trait that can't disappear fast enough. We need leaders that don't favor one subset over another to really move beyond the various forms of inequality that exist today. Sanders message really is universal, but apparently some people aren't into that.
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)"We are not impressed by Bernies lack of polish and quirky persona. Do you know why Barrack Obama is the president right now? Its greatly because he played the political game masterfully. You know why he played the game masterfully? Because as a talented African American Im sure that years prior someone let him know he had to be twice as good in order to get half as much as the Bernies of the world. In his case he is three times as good so he became a two term president, who again Bernie had the nerve to throw shade at. I could say the same for Hillary Clinton. When you arent a straight, white, male legislating in arguably the whitest state in the country, you might come across a situation where you need learn how to wear a decent suit, how to speak with more finesse, and avoid odd tics in your speaking presence just so you can be taken seriously. When youre black or a woman you dont have the privilege of being quirky if you want to be a leader. The fact that Bernie flaunts these obvious flaws as some type of endearing trait lets us know that he really doesnt get it."
This is SO true! In this day and age, minorities (PoC and women), still need to be twice as good to even be able to compete.
The fact that someone with Sanders "quirks" can run for president reeks of white male privilege. Neither Obama nor Hilary could have gotten away with it.
BTW, I'm very happy to see you back here, Brave!
TCJ70
(4,387 posts)What quirks should disqualify him from running for president in your view?
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)Academically. HRC and PBO had to be academic stars, and reach the very top of their careers. Yet some still say they are not qualified to be POTUS
Sanders has a Bachelor of arts degree. He has described himself as a mediocre college student because the classroom was "boring and irrelevant,"
I can't imagine PBO or HRC running on that resume. Both of them being minorities meant they had to excel at virtually everything in order to be taken seriously.
Drifting from one job to another unil he was in his 40's years, while the other two were busting thir butt from an young age in order to have a career worthy of being considered for the highest job in the land.
Having a child out of wedlock. Do you really think that either PBO or Hillary would have been able to rin if eithjer of them had had a child out of wedlock? Seriously.
Pure white male privilege
Armstead
(47,803 posts)So now the fact that people have individual personalities is racist and sexist.
So Bernie should do what? Undergo plastic surgery and go to a vocal coach to look like George Clooney so he can also be "better than" to pass this ridiculous bit of logic and be certified as not racist or sexist?
floppyboo
(2,461 posts)As I woman, I find it offensive that I am being pitied as having to overcome 'tricks' of quirkiness. Thankfully, I was raised by a father that always treated women on even footing.
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)For example, no way would a black person get away with the "revolution" talk that Sanders does; even Jesse Jackson didn't talk like that when he ran.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)It is true that any "pathbreaker" does have to have gifts that are larger than the norm.
But there's also a difference though in not wanting to allow people to use stereotypes against you, and not having a distinct personality. Obama does not entirely avoid slipping into the cadence of AA ministers or street lingo on occasion, for example. That's going to put off true racists.But not most people.
On the flip side, many of the things people criticize Bernie for -- his accent, his occasional brusqueness -- are also ethnic traits associated with being a Jew -- and a New York Jew. So he is not immune from stereotypes eitehr.
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)But I have issues with church that are personal and still upset me at times.
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)Obama has natural leadership abilities and star quality. . My guess is that if he had mediocre grades and just scraped out of law school, moved to Chicago and made a name as a community organizer, and started running for lower office, those gifts would have been noticed regardless, and he would have had the same ascendency.
Clinton likewise, could have done okay on college, somehow positioned herself in some classic "entry level comers" positions in DC and exercised her ambitions to advance. She is more problematic because she also married a comer with amazing political gifts, so it is impossible to tell how she would have done if she had either been single or married to some ordinary schmuck.
And despite his early adulthood (and I would NOT discount his years as a student civil rights activist) Sanders made his name by being an exceptionally capable Mayor (and got attention as a socialist) who was named one of America's Best Mayors, and then advanced to Congress where he was repeatedly sent back by unbeatable margins for many terms.
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)lunamagica
(9,967 posts)That they don't have to work twice as hard to be half as good?
Armstead
(47,803 posts)But in this particular situation, that particular criticism strikes me as hollow.
In fact it's demeaning to both Obama and Clinton to say it.
You don't think Obama has a distinctive personality that is not occasionally quirky? You think he is just some preprogrammed robot who has been stripped of all of his individuality?
Likewise Clinton? You think she is just some perfect political mannequin?
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)Has nothing to do with their personalities. It's about what is admissible for a white man is not the same for PoC and women
Armstead
(47,803 posts)Did you read mine?
Bernie gets a lot of criticism for the way he comes across. But his personal mannerisms are overlooked (or celebrated) because he is genuine, and people appreciate that....And as I noted above some of what he gets criticized for are also based on ethnic stereotypes.
I think Obama is genuine too. He is who he is, and even when I have I have disagreed with him, I trust him implicitly, because his basic integrity shines through. And I admire and respect him because of his obvious intelligence and 3D understanding of the world. THAT's what people respond to. Not the fact that he is immaculately groomed or smooth....I think people would respond to him in the same way if he were a little sloppier, and less perfectly modulated in his speech.
Clinton, meh. I don't trust her -- but it has nothing to do with her gender.
I disagree with that generalization.
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)"We are not impressed by Bernies lack of polish and quirky persona. Do you know why Barrack Obama is the president right now? Its greatly because he played the political game masterfully. You know why he played the game masterfully? Because as a talented African American Im sure that years prior someone let him know he had to be twice as good in order to get half as much as the Bernies of the world. In his case he is three times as good so he became a two term president, who again Bernie had the nerve to throw shade at. I could say the same for Hillary Clinton. When you arent a straight, white, male legislating in arguably the whitest state in the country, you might come across a situation where you need learn how to wear a decent suit, how to speak with more finesse, and avoid odd tics in your speaking presence just so you can be taken seriously. When youre black or a woman you dont have the privilege of being quirky if you want to be a leader. The fact that Bernie flaunts these obvious flaws as some type of endearing trait lets us know that he really doesnt get it."
I replied how I was glad that someone pointed this out, agreed, and gave examples of it. I never said or implied anything about their personalities. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word "quirk", but hey, I'm not as gifted as a writer as many on DU are.
The comparisons I made are not about personalities. It's about how much harder women and PoC have to work, and how they can get away with much less that a white man can.
Like for example, do you think PBO or HRC had had an out of wedlock child it would have gone practically unnoticed? I think that if it had been one of them, this would have been a BIG, BIG deal.
I don't know how can I make this any more clear, but the post you replied to was never about personalities.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)For some reason, it made me think of this, which I just read in the dead-tree edition.
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal-a/2016_03/message_to_millennials_bernie059844.php
kwassa
(23,340 posts)I found myself nodding my head all the way through. This is my main problem with Bernie: how is he going to get any of these things done?
We are not impressed with Bernies plans for a political revolution. We are skeptics. Life has taught us that. We have seen the government infect us with diseases, attempt to deny us voting rights, and create unfair prison sentencing practices. We have seen the lashing out against black figures being successful in the media, sports, and politics. We have seen the Trump rallies. We have seen the grand juries come back without orders to indict murderous police officers. Weve seen some of you Bernie supporters at Ron Paul rallies 4 years ago. To quote a multi-millionaire artist and businessman that was recently called a drug dealer by some airhead news anchor. We dont believe you, you need more people. (Because you really dont know any black people you probably dont get this reference) This is America, we are not safe here, yet Bernie swears that the same people that have stood idly by and watched/ignored horrible things happening to African Americans for generations are going to suddenly see the light and get on board. Sanders is not the charismatic revolutionary you seem to think he is. He will not be able to shout down conservative forces in the legislature, Bernie couldnt even finish his own rally when #BlackLivesMAtter protestors came for him. Bernie will not pull people to the polls in droves to cause democrats to overtake congress into a filibuster proof super majority. By the way Barrack Obama, you know the first black president ever. The president that helped set records for minority voter turnout two elections in a row, the one that Sanders threw shade at; he had a super majority and still couldnt get a ton done because democrats in red states are still beholden to their conservative constituents. The world you Bernie supporters believe in doesnt exist to black people or maybe it does in Vermont but few of us have ever seen Vermont.
floppyboo
(2,461 posts)"he had a super majority and still couldnt get a ton done because democrats in red states are still beholden to their conservative constituents."
You've got to have the Congress! Voting for Hillary is only one piece of the puzzle. I'd start looking at house and senate where there are openings. Both Hillary or Sanders will perform well if they have some support there. The executive office is rather overblown in importance for issues on the homefront - except for setting tone. Go bank/corporate or grassroots, but its not going to matter a damn bit unless you activate locally. There is, imho, one candidate that supports grassroots, and can get people fired up. Sorry, but closed door lobby/fundraising meetings aren't going to inspire past November. And you may find yourself cooked.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)That is the bottom line.
floppyboo
(2,461 posts)all powerful. Stay upfull.
Rebkeh
(2,450 posts)Here's what stands out to me, one right and one horribly wrong.
1. The Ron Paul thing ... that's true. A problem we are working on.
2. Fighting dirty, the long slog in the Washington muck is not how you get change, it's how you keep things exactly the way they are. It's no longer a winning strategy, it's a losing one. Clinton supporters are the ones being naive here, not Bernie's.
Yes, it's true Bernie is no Barack Obama, but he doesn't have to be. Besides, We don't want another Obama, he was the right guy then, he, or someone like him, would be the wrong person now.
And Clinton is no Obama, please. Be serious.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)That is condescending as hell. We are not naive. We just know better than to believe that by electing one dude, ohhh magnificent chnge will come.
No politician will make things right for us. Putting all type of energy into the new awesome saviour is the epitome of naiveté.
Nobody had ever said Clinton was Obama. Just that Bernie is not. We CAN discuss him without using her for a comparison.
About that fighting dirty??? Harassing John Lewis and calling him house nwords and sellouts for not being deferential to Bernie is FIGHTING DIRTY. She aint did no shit like that and he acts like int nothing wrong with it.
So rather than be upset that the rest of us are good and damn tired of his fans and their swarms and bullshit harassment and being told that we should be so impressed by his civil right wirk in the sixties, he should have taken the time to get to KNOW US and find out how to best connect with as many of us as he can.
Pointing at the Clintons when talking about him just makes me know that he cannot stand up to scrutiny. The deflection is all they can do.
wildeyed
(11,240 posts)Not black, but I agree heartily that ALL politicians are full of shit and not to be trusted. All of them. Nature of the beast. Being mad at that is like being mad at gravity or rain. You can if you want, but you are going to mad a bunch.
Lover your trigger warning too, for all the delicate flowers..... You can just add "Trigger warning: white privilege" from now on
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
Number23
(24,544 posts)I should have known.