2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumSanders is wrong about the lawsuit we filed after our son’s murder in Newtown
We write in response to Sen. Bernie Sanderss comments about our lawsuit at the recent Democratic presidential debate in Michigan. Sanders suggested that the point of our case is to hold Remington Arms Co. liable simply because one of its guns was used to commit mass murder. With all due respect, this is simplistic and wrong.
This case is about a particular weapon, Remingtons Bushmaster AR-15, and its sale to a particular market: civilians. It is not about handguns or hunting rifles, and the success of our lawsuit would not mean the end of firearm manufacturing in this country, as Sanders warned. This case is about the AR-15 because the AR-15 is not an ordinary weapon; it was designed and manufactured for the military to increase casualties in combat. The AR-15 is to guns what a tank is to cars: uniquely deadly and suitable for specialized use only.
We have never suggested that Remington should be held liable simply for manufacturing the AR-15. In fact, we believe that Remington and other manufacturers production of the AR-15 is essential for our armed forces and law enforcement. But Remington is responsible for its calculated choice to sell that same weapon to the public, and for emphasizing the military and assaultive capacities of the weapon in its marketing to civilians.
Indeed, Remington promotes the AR-15s capacity to inflict mass casualities. It markets its AR-15s with images of soldiers and SWAT teams; it dubs various models the patrolman and the adaptive combat rifle and declares that they are as mission-adaptable as you are; it encourages the notion that the AR-15 is a weapon that bestows power and glory upon those who wield it. Advertising copy for Remingtons AR-15s has included the following: Consider your man card reissued, and Forces of opposition, bow down. You are single-handedly outnumbered.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/sanders-is-wrong-about-the-lawsuit-we-filed-after-our-son-was-murdered-in-newtown/2016/03/18/d5892e2a-ebbb-11e5-b0fd-073d5930a7b7_story.html?wpisrc=nl_az_most
Press Virginia
(2,329 posts)BainsBane
(53,016 posts)I reject the NRA interpretation of the law or the notion that corporations that profit from murder require a unique and exceptional protection in the capitalist economy. I think to use the law to promote murder for profit is about as wrong as anything can be, and strongly resent the dramatic shift to the pro-gun lobby position on these issues because of Sanders influence.
You mount no argument to counter the letter from the Bradens. "Nonsense" is not persuasive or thoughtful.
Press Virginia
(2,329 posts)Remington manufactured a gun, which was sold to an individual who followed the law. The sale was approved by the state. The weapon was registered with the state.
The lawful, registered, owner did not commit any murder with their legally purchased weapon.
So why is Remington liable for what happened?
BainsBane
(53,016 posts)as in every other lawsuit. That is the case for every other corporation or industry in America, with the exception of gun makers and sellers because they have blanket immunity from civil liability.
Neither you nor I are in a position to determine legal liability. That is something only a court can determine. The Bradens want the opportunity to be able to make their case, as they would be able to do against any other individual or business in America.
Press Virginia
(2,329 posts)and killed 21 kids, would you be arguing GM, Ford or Toyota is liable? Would these parents?
Buzz cook
(2,471 posts)build and market a car that is intended to kill multiple humans? Do those ads play to the fear, racism, and man child death fantasies in the same way that firearm ads do?
Press Virginia
(2,329 posts)on the killing of multiple humans, it has failed miserably.
Perhaps you could show me some of these ads where Remington has marketed these killing machines in what you say is their intended purpose.
HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)Press Virginia
(2,329 posts)HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)Press Virginia
(2,329 posts)But it's not
TeddyR
(2,493 posts)That the AR-15 at issue is no different than any other semi-automatic rifle available for civilian purchase? It isn't an automatic rifle (i.e., a "machine gun" , but rather a firearm that fires one round every time the trigger is pulled. In other words, it works exactly the same as semi-automatic handguns and any other number of rifles. With these facts in mind, why do you think the AR-15 rifle should be banned and other firearms should not?
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)http://www.ontheissues.org/2016/Bernie_Sanders_Gun_Control.htm
Q: For a decade, you said that holding gun manufacturers legally responsible for mass shootings is a bad idea. Do you want to shield gun companies from lawsuits?
SANDERS: Of course not. This was a large and complicated bill. There were provisions in it that I think made sense. For example, do I think that a gun shop in the state of Vermont that sells legally a gun to somebody, and that somebody goes out and does something crazy, that that gun shop owner should be held responsible? I don't. On the other hand, where you have manufacturers and where you have gun shops knowingly giving guns to criminals or aiding and abetting that, of course we should take action.
Source: 2015 CNN Democratic primary debate in Las Vegas , Oct 13, 2015
http://www.ontheissues.org/2016/Bernie_Sanders_Gun_Control.htm
....However, the Nation and the other reports like it dont shed real light on where Sanders is coming from. They dont explain why he supports some gun controls but not others. Nor do they ask if theres a consistency to Sanders positions and votes over the years? They simply suggest that Bernies position is muddled and makes a good target for Hillary.
Yet there is an explanation. Its consistent and simpler than many pundits think. And its in Bernies own words dating back to the campaign where he was first elected to the U.S. Housein 1990where he was endorsed by the NRA, even after Sanders told them that he would ban assault rifles. That year, Bernie faced Republican incumbent Peter Smith, who beat him by less than 4 percentage points in a three-way race two years before.
In that 1988 race, Bernie told Vermont sportsmen that he backed an assault weapons ban. Smith told the same sportsmens groups that he opposed it, but midway through his first term he changed his mind and co-sponsored an assault rifle baneven bringing an AK-47 to his press conference. That about-face was seen as a betrayal and is the background to a June 1990 debate sponsored by the Vermont Federation of Sportsmens Clubs.
I was at that debate with Smith and three other candidatesas the Sanders campaign press secretaryand recorded it. Bernie spoke at length three times and much of what he said is relevant today, and anticipates his congressional record on gun control ever since. Look at how Bernie describes what being a sportsperson is in a rural state, where he is quick to draw the line with weapons that threaten police and have no legitimate use in huntinghe previously was mayor of Vermonts biggest city, and his record of being very clear with the gun lobby and rural people about where he stands. His approach, despite the Nations characterization, isnt open-minded.
As you can see, Berniewho moved to rural northeastern Vermont in the late 1960shas an appreciation and feeling for where hunting and fishing fit into the lives of lower income rural people. Hes not a hunter or a fisherman. When he grew up in Brooklyn, he was a nerdy jockbeing captivated by ideas and a high school miler who hoped for a track scholarship for college. But like many people who settled in Vermont for generations, he was drawn to its freer and greener pastures and respected its local culture.
I went before the sportsmen of Vermont and said that I have concerns about certain types of assault weapons that have nothing to do with hunting. I believe in hunting. I will not support any legislation that limits the rights of Vermonters or any other hunters to practice what they have enjoyed for decades. I do have concerns about certain types of assault weapons.
That was not the end of his remarks. But it is worth noting that his separating the rights of traditional hunters from the concerns of police chiefs has been a constant thread in many subsequent votes he would take in Congress. Its also noteworthy that Bernie consistently has opposed assault weapons from the late 1980sbefore he was in Congresswhich he reiterated to the moderator.
http://www.salon.com/2015/10/10/what_bernies_gun_control_critics_get_wrong_partner/
Next, the 1990 debate turned to gun control. The moderator, who clearly was a Second Amendment absolutist, went after Bernieto test his mettle after Smiths about-face.
Do you support additional restrictions on firearms? Do you support additional restrictive firearms legislation? he asked. Bernie Sanders, explain yourself, yes or no?
Yes, he replied. Two years ago, I went before the Vermont Sportsmans Federation and was asked exactly the same question. It was a controversial question. I know how they felt on the issue. And that was before the DiConcini Bill. That was before a lot of discussion about the Brady Bill. That was before New Jersey and California passed bills limiting assault weapons.
I went before the sportsmen of Vermont and said that I have concerns about certain types of assault weapons that have nothing to do with hunting. I believe in hunting. I will not support any legislation that limits the rights of Vermonters or any other hunters to practice what they have enjoyed for decades. I do have concerns about certain types of assault weapons.
That was not the end of his remarks. But it is worth noting that his separating the rights of traditional hunters from the concerns of police chiefs has been a constant thread in many subsequent votes he would take in Congress. Its also noteworthy that Bernie consistently has opposed assault weapons from the late 1980sbefore he was in Congresswhich he reiterated to the moderator.
I said that before the election, he continued. The Vermont sportspeople, as is their right, made their endorsement. The endorsed Peter Smith. They endorsed Paul Poirier. I lost that election by about three-and-one-half percentage points, a very close election. Was my failure to get that endorsement pivotal? It might have been. We dont know. Maybe it was. Maybe it wasnt. All I can say is I told the sportspeople of Vermont what I believe before the election and I am going to say it again.
I do believe we need to ban certain types of assault weapons. I have taked to police chiefs. I have talked to the police officers out on the street. I have read some of the literature all over this country. Police chiefs, police officers are concerned about the types of weapons which are ending up in the hands of drug dealers and other criminals and our police oficers are getting outgunned.
http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/bernies-gun-control-critics-are-wrong-his-stance-has-been-consistent-decades
WASHINGTON, April 17 Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) today voted for expanded background checks on gun buyers and for a ban on assault weapons but the Senate rejected those central planks of legislation inspired by the shootings of 20 first-grade students and six teachers in Newtown, Conn.
Nobody believes that gun control by itself is going to end the horrors we have seen in Newtown, Conn., Aurora, Colo., Blacksburg, Va., Tucson, Ariz. and other American communities, Sanders said. There is a growing consensus, however, in Vermont and across America that we have got to do as much as we can to end the cold-blooded, mass murders of innocent people. I believe very strongly that we also have got to address the mental health crisis in our country and make certain that help is available for people who may be a danger to themselves and others, Sanders added.
The amendment on expanded background checks needed 60 votes to pass but only 54 senators voted for it. To my mind it makes common sense to keep these weapons out of the hands of people with criminal records or mental health histories, Sanders said.
Under current federal law, background checks are not performed for tens of thousands of sales up to 40 percent of all gun transfers at gun shows or over the Internet. The amendment would have required background checks for all gun sales in commercial settings regardless of whether the seller is a licensed dealer. The compromise proposal would have exempted sales between family, friends, and neighbors.
In a separate roll call, the Senate rejected a proposal to ban assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. That proposal was defeated by a vote of 60 to 40.
http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/sanders-votes-for-background-checks-assault-weapons-ban
Bernie Sanders voted for the 1994 crime bill because it included the Violence against Women Act and assault weapons ban:
A spokesman for Sanders said he voted for the bill "because it included the Violence Against Women Act and the ban on certain assault weapons."
Sanders reiterated his opposition to capital punishment in 2015. "I just dont think the state itself, whether its the state government or federal government, should be in the business of killing people," he said on a radio show.
http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/sep/02/viral-image/where-do-hillary-clinton-and-bernie-sanders-stand-/
BainsBane
(53,016 posts)It is a specific response to his claims in the debate.. This is a basic point that gets at issues of corporate profits over human life and citizens rights.
Your excerpts respond to none of that. This letter was written yesterday. If it has been posted four times, so be it. Some things are more important than a reflexive instinct to defend a politician over the rights and lives of American citizens. Sanders campaign is winding down. It's time for "progressives" to abandon their support for the NRA position on this issue.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Especially considering how your candidate pandered to the NRA in 2008:
Yesterday, Clinton hit Obama for calling Pennsylvanians "bitter," ground on which he fairly ably engaged.
Today, she's onto the other half of his San Francisco remarks, in which he linked economic frustration to clinging to religion and guns (the part he sought to walk back this morning in Muncie, Ind.).
"Sen. Obama's remarks are elitist, and they are out of touch," Clinton said. "The people of faith I know don't 'cling to' religion because they're bitter. ... I also disagree with Sen. Obama's assertion that people in this country 'cling to guns' and have certain attitudes about immigration or trade simply out of frustration. People of all walks of life hunt and they enjoy doing so because it's an important part of their life, not because they are bitter."
http://www.politico.com/blogs/ben-smith/2008/04/hillary-hits-obama-on-faith-guns-007747
But Clinton hasnt always been so forceful in her fight for gun control. As the Post highlights, Clinton has dramatically shifted her tone on gun control since the 2008 campaign. While Clinton touted her husbands record record on gun control (former President Bill Clinton signed into the law an assault weapons ban that has since lapsed) she also heralded personal memories of learning to shoot with her father and defend gun ownership, saying, there is not a contradiction between protecting Second Amendment rights and the effort to reduce crime.
You know, my dad took me out behind the cottage that my grandfather built on a little lake called Lake Winola outside of Scranton and taught me how to shoot when I was a little girl, Clinton said while campaigning ahead of the Indiana primary, where white working class Democrats propelled her to a narrow victory over then-Sen. Barack Obama. You know, some people now continue to teach their children and their grandchildren. Its part of culture. Its part of a way of life. People enjoy hunting and shooting because its an important part of who they are. Not because they are bitter, she continued, in a dig at Obamas remark at a fundraiser that disenfranchised Americans often cling to cultural symbols like guns and religion.
http://www.salon.com/2015/07/10/hillary_clinton_goes_bold_on_gun_safety_but_she_sounded_a_different_note_in_2008/
WAUSAU, WIS. -- At a campaign stop this afternoon, Hillary Clinton's focus was on the economy and health care but some in the crowd had other things on their minds. Clinton was asked to discuss gun control which prompted Clinton to talk about her days holding a rifle in the cold, shallow waters in backwoods Arkansas.
"I've hunted. My father taught me how to hunt. I went duck hunting in Arkansas. I remember standing in that cold water, so cold, at first light. I was with a bunch of my friends, all men. The sun's up, the ducks are flying and they are playing a trick on me. They said, 'we're not going to shoot, you shoot.' They wanted to embarrass me. The pressure was on. So I shot, and I shot a banded duck and they were surprised as I was," Clinton said drawing laughter from the crowd.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/clintons-hunting-history/
Q: Do you support the DC handgun ban?
A: I want to give local communities the authority over determining how to keep their citizens safe. This case youre referring to is before the Supreme Court.
Q: But what do you support?
A: I support sensible regulation that is consistent with the constitutional right to own and bear arms.
Q: Is the DC ban consistent with that right?
A: I think a total ban, with no exceptions under any circumstances, might be found by the court not to be. But DC or anybody else [should be able to] come up with sensible regulations to protect their people.
Q: But do you still favor licensing and registration of handguns?
A: What I favor is what works in NY. We have one set of rules in NYC and a totally different set of rules in the rest of the state. What might work in NYC is certainly not going to work in Montana. So, for the federal government to be having any kind of blanket rules that theyre going to try to impose, I think doesnt make sense.
Source: 2008 Philadelphia primary debate, on eve of PA primary , Apr 16, 2008
http://www.ontheissues.org/2016/Hillary_Clinton_Gun_Control.htm
You don't want the facts posted because they don't fit the narrative, that doesn't give you the right to exploit this issue and claim others don't care when we push back.
BainsBane
(53,016 posts)as much as you think all that matters is a contest between political elites that is all but over, there are issues of human life and citizen rights at stake in this debate.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)If you were so concerned about those lives you'd be smearing Republicans, not pro-gun control Democrats.
Hillary supporters do love to pretend they're the only ones who care about victims.
TeddyR
(2,493 posts)It isn't "blanket immunity" -- PLCAA protects firearms manufacturers and dealers from frivolous lawsuits filed when some murderer uses a firearm to commit a crime. The manufacturer isn't liable, just like Ford isn't liable for drunk drivers, Louisville Slugger isn't liable when someone uses a bat to kill an individual, and TAC-Force isn't liable if a criminal stabs someone to death. A gun is simply a tool -- it is inanimate and can't cause any harm whatsoever until a human makes the decision to pull the trigger. And the PLCAA is necessary because people like Bloomberg want to file multiple frivolous lawsuits in an effort to bankrupt firearm companies.
This idea of litigating a company out of business because someone misuses their product is pretty offensive and not particularly progressive.
dsc
(52,152 posts)so no he didn't vote for the crime bill because of the weapons ban.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Politifact looked into Chuck Toad's claims:
"Hold it. To the best of my knowledge, there were two important provisions, and that is the Violence Against Women Act," Sanders said. "And my understanding is there is a ban on assault weapons."
So whos right here?
The answer is complicated.
Sanders did vote in favor of a House conference report that included the aforementioned ban and protections for women. He also voted for a separate House bill specifically prohibiting assault weapons that was meant to be folded into the omnibus legislation.
...
Sanders on banning assault weapons
Outside of the omnibus crime bill, the record shows that Sanders supported prohibiting assault weapons since his early days in office.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/feb/28/bernie-s/bernie-sanders-chuck-todd-debate-crime-bill-vote-a/
dsc
(52,152 posts)I am sure it was an honest mistake.
First, Sanders criticized the crime bill for its lack of attention to root causes. "We can either educate or electrocute. We can create meaningful jobs, rebuilding our society, or we can build more jails. Mr. Speaker, let us create a society of hope and compassion, not one of hate and vengeance," he said on the House floor on April 13.
Second, Brooks amended the bill again, this time stripping the legislation of the assault weapons ban but keeping the violence against women provisions.
Sanders voted for the bill without the gun ban.
He voted for the bill without the ban, plain and simple.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)In May, Sanders voted for a separate bill put forth by New York Sen. Chuck Schumer to ban 19 semi-automatic assault weapons, including AK-47s and Uzis as well as weapons with more than one assault feature. According to news reports from the time, passing this legislation paved the way for the compromise bill to encompass the ban.
Brooks, the Texas Democrat described by the Washington Post as "wily and contrary," attempted to keep the prohibitions out of the bill but to no avail. The House released its conference report in August 1994 with the ban in place. Sanders voted in agreement.
And again the part you ignored:
Bernie supported the provision in the bill, just like he
always supported bans on assault weapons.
Sorry that doesnt fit the narrative but his record matters.
dsc
(52,152 posts)I am saying he would have, and in point of fact did, vote for the crime bill even without the ban.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)It's what changed his mind.
dsc
(52,152 posts)Had he said that, I would accept that, but instead he said I voted for the crime bill because it contained the violence against women act and the assault weapons ban. That isn't honest. He voted for a version of the bill which didn't contain that provision. He did so knowing full well that it didn't contain that provision. Thus he would have, and did, vote for that bill without it containing that provision.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)If he didn't support the ban he wouldn't have signed the report or voted for the separate bill that was supposed to be folded into it.
And frankly I don't really care what you "accept" or consider to be honest, your previous posts regarding Bernie's support for marriage equality have convinced me that you will use any and every opportunity to smear his record.
dsc
(52,152 posts)but I am saying he is being dishonest when he says, as he has repeatedly done, that the only reason (that is what because means) that he voted for the crime bill was the fact it contained the violence against women act and the assault weapons ban. The fact he voted for the crime bill when it didn't have the assault weapons ban means he didn't vote for the bill because of the ban.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)Press Virginia
(2,329 posts)Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)Press Virginia
(2,329 posts)BainsBane
(53,016 posts)and gets to what they see as the heart of the issue. I find it illuminating, not because I find the argument persuasive but because it shows us how they see their rights to guns vs. our lives.
Press Virginia
(2,329 posts)than emotions that reject facts
BainsBane
(53,016 posts)"my rights trump your dead." He says he served in Iraq and therefore he is more important than the children of Sandyhook.
Funny that you decry emotion when your responses to this thread have been entirely emotional, with not even an effort to provide a substantive argument to counter the Bradens.
Press Virginia
(2,329 posts)that ignores facts in an effort to strip people of their rights.
How is Remington liable for a stolen gun being used to kill people?
TeddyR
(2,493 posts)Or at least not one based on facts or logic. Setting aside which politician favors this law or which doesn't, some individuals want to make it as difficult as possible to own guns, and ban them if possible, and if they can't do it democratically through their elected representatives they'll try to do it through the courts. This is the exact opposite of what the court did with respect to same-sex marriage -- there, the court correctly expanded a right to everyone, while here gun control fans want to use courts to take away a constitutionally protected right.
Press Virginia
(2,329 posts)Rational questions tend to derail irrational arguments
HerbChestnut
(3,649 posts)The military grade is fully automatic (fires repeating rounds by holding down the trigger). The civilian grade is semi-automatic (fires one round per pull of the trigger. Shooter has to pull the trigger again to fire another round). The civilian model of the AR-15 is no different from any other rifle that holds multiple rounds. I'm not a gun owner, I don't think guns are necessary in our society (especially hand guns), but let's at least get the facts straight.
Press Virginia
(2,329 posts)Scary looking rifles, which are the least likely weapon to kill people, must be banned
BainsBane
(53,016 posts)in court in response to the plaintiff's case. Unfortunately, congress has ensured that citizens have no right to even make their case in court. A determination to protect the unfettered corporate profits of gun makers and sellers takes precedence.
Press Virginia
(2,329 posts)K
Buzz cook
(2,471 posts)They are not the same.
One round per pull of the trigger means as fast as you can move your finger, with a tacticool AR-15. We aren't talking about the glacially slow reset time of grampa's M-1 Garand.
Go to a rifle range that rents guns and explore the difference.
Press Virginia
(2,329 posts)740/m cycle and a 575/m cycle just by feel right?
Buzz cook
(2,471 posts)And I see you haven't fired both side by side.
Oh bwaahaha yourself.
Press Virginia
(2,329 posts)How about this...you're not likely to be killed by any rifle especially one that is military grade unless you're in the military and in combat.
Adam Lanza could have killed just as many kids with a 750 as he did with a Bushmaster, regardless of the trigger pull characteristics or the cyclical firing rate differences.
It doesn't fire any faster than my FNX 9mm handgun. And certainly isn't the same as the automatic weapons I fired in the military. But you are correct - 1 pull of the trigger equals 1 round fired, the same as virtually 100% of the firearms sold to civilians.
Press Virginia
(2,329 posts)and capable of actually hitting the manufacturers cycle numbers so as to provide him with the superior knowledge needed to inform mere mortals that they need to get to a gun range
Buzz cook
(2,471 posts)your mall ninja status.
Press Virginia
(2,329 posts)Remington probably has you on speed dial when they're having QC issues
tritsofme
(17,371 posts)I give Sanders a lot of credit for standing tough on this issue.
Travis_0004
(5,417 posts)I would expect a counter suit, and probably a large settlement. Assumung a gun rights group takes on the defense, they will likely win a hundred thousand bucks to take on more cases.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Many who responded here talk about the fact that the weapons are lawful products. But if a manufacturer promotes an unlawful use of the product, that seems to me to be a fundamentally different thing from the act of manufacturing. Remington makes billions selling to the Armed Forces. But, like most capitalists, they are never content with a certain level of profitability. Thus the need to grow the market by using advertising to falsely create a perceived need for their product.
From the post:
Essential to creating that need is to constantly promote the idea that self-defense by using military style weapons is the only means to be truly safe, and as a corollary, to promote the idea that only an armed citizen is a truly safe citizen.
This idea that carrying a weapon is an insurance policy that prevents one from being a victim of violence is contradicted by many studies, but that does not stop the NRA, basically a lobbying group for the arms industry, from promoting the idea.
Plus, the marketing is designed to convince the average citizen that they too can be just like Dirty Harry, or Rambo, or the Terminator, if only they have the latest version of the Deathmaster 2016, or whatever ridiculous name the ad agency people conceive of for these military weapons of mass death.
Indeed, Remington promotes the AR-15s capacity to inflict mass casualities. It markets its AR-15s with images of soldiers and SWAT teams; it dubs various models the patrolman and the adaptive combat rifle and declares that they are as mission-adaptable as you are; it encourages the notion that the AR-15 is a weapon that bestows power and glory upon those who wield it. Advertising copy for Remingtons AR-15s has included the following: Consider your man card reissued, and Forces of opposition, bow down. You are single-handedly outnumbered.
Create a product, create a civilian need, and watch the money flow in as the innocent victims are memorialized.