2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumSo let's suppose there was a ballot initiative that read...
"All undocumented immigrants deported. No Muslims allowed to enter the country. Assassinate the children of suspected terrorists. Roe v Wade overturned. Freedom of the press curtailed. Massive tax cuts for the wealthy."
Would anyone in their right mind do anything other than vote "no"? Would we be hearing supposed progressives insisting that their "consciences" won't let them vote "no" because "they don't vote out of fear"? Would there be any moral justification forever for not voting on this initiative?
Of course not. And failing to vote Dem in the general election is the same thing. Those are the things that will happen, and more, if Trump wins. Even if you thought that Hillary was going to keep the "status quo", and all her talk about minimum wage and union rights and everything is just rhetoric, you're still faced with the equivalent of the ballot initiative described above.
Gothmog
(143,999 posts)astrophuss42
(290 posts)DanTex
(20,709 posts)about TPP and "oligarchs".
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)daleanime
(17,796 posts)use fear to try and control voters.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)One reason Hillary is trouncing him is that she has an optimistic message.
SheenaR
(2,052 posts)Wow...First you use fear, then you use misinformation. I can't wait to see how this goes for the next 7 months.
Never ever.......real optimistic.
dinkytron
(568 posts)DanTex
(20,709 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)if Clinton doesn't win.
Elections have consequences.
daleanime
(17,796 posts)Fear.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)privatize social security or start multiple wars.
Pointing out the explicit policy positions adopted by Trump is called contrasting and educating the voters.
If you are not afraid of the prospect of "President Trump" being in charge of the military and the CIA and the NSA and the EPA and filling every single judicial vacancy in the federal courts--then you do not have very progressive views.
SheenaR
(2,052 posts)Apples and oranges...
You and your cronies are going to try and pull this shit for seven months. Scare or guilt us into voting for her.
We will get what we deserve for not embracing real actual change and a true liberal, progressive agenda.
I speak for myself only. She DOES NOT stand for the issues most important to me. She has been wrong time and again on the issues that are important to me. She is incapable of being believed. I'm not buying what she is selling because it has been proven time and again she will say ANYTHING to anyone to get her elected.
This is how bad of a GE candidate that she is. That you have to SCARE other Democrats into voting for her.
If she was worth a damn as a candidate, this primary would be over and the GE would be in the bag.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)There are an abundance of issues that I disagree with her on. Your characterization is inaccurate.
I do not want President Trump nor do I want President Clinton.
We can go on all day if you want. I won't budge an inch
You can come here and torture me if you want. She is a bad person who has done many bad things. She has harmed many people in her and her husband's quest for power. She has silenced victims of sexual assault. She has silenced members of the LGBT community.
She is a NEVER in my book
DanTex
(20,709 posts)much about those who are. Because if you did, you wouldn't be sitting idly while Trump rounds them up.
SheenaR
(2,052 posts)No voter can be all things at all times. It's great that I am not someone in the Midwest also who lost their job because of trade policies that Clinton supported and championed. Works both ways.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)If that's you care about, then by all means, vote Trump or third party.
Otherwise, be thankful that you're not undocumented and that you don't rely on Obamacare for healthcare, which gives you the luxury of sitting out the election without suffering any of the consequences.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)SheenaR
(2,052 posts)We have two truly awful major party GE candidates. What the Dems should really fear is him not getting the first ballot nom, and them throwing a Kasich up on the 2nd ballot to win the nomination.
Then we are truly screwed because he actually knows what he is doing.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)the likely Democratic nominee.
So I will ask again:
Is Trump a NEVER for you?
Is Kasich a NEVER for you?
Is Ted Cruz a NEVER for you?
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)Half-Century Man
(5,279 posts)Suppose seeing a duck made your ass itch.
Both of these are equally as valid as your conjectures. Let's speak of real issues, such as the continual cycle of both parties fear mongering votes from their bases.
This is a large part of the partisan gridlock that is crippling our country. There is only one way to stop it; and that is to challenge it. Call the bluff of the fear mongerers, make them bend to our will.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Or did you forget about that?
Abdulrahman Anwar al-Awlaki (also spelled al-Aulaqi; August 26, 1995[1] October 14, 2011) was a 16 year old American citizen who was killed while eating dinner at an outdoor restaurant by an airstrike by an armed C.I.A. drone in Yemen on October 14, 2011. Abdulrahman Al-Awlaki had no connection to terrorism and was searching for his father, Anwar al-Awlaki, a dual Yemeni-American citizen who worked as Islamic Lecturer in the Arabian Peninsula. Anwar al-Awlaki was killed by an airstrike by an armed C.I.A. drone two weeks prior to the death of his son.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdulrahman_al-Awlaki
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)There will be a new one tomorrow. Also be afraid, be very afraid. And remember Debbie's 2014 hit single "who else are you going to vote for?"
DanTex
(20,709 posts)You're not undocumented, what do you care about mass deportation, am I right? You already had health insurance before Obamacare, am I right?
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)Transcripts
Honduras coup
Libya
Syria
Iraq War resolution
Sending children back into Central America
Wall Street ties
Prison Industry ties
Opposing gay marriage until it was absolutely no longer possible (while preserving electability)
Touting TPP until it was absolutely no longer possible (while preserving electability)
Alienating the entire left and the millennials in particular
But WE should be ashamed for not supporting her right now, even though Sanders can still win the nomination? How transparent are your arguments.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Support Bernie during the primary, sure, I'm talking about voting Dem in the general election. Regardless of who the nominee is.
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)because it sounded like you tried to scare Sanders supporters into voting against their conscience, for Clinton.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)General Election or voting third party if that happens. I'm sure you've noticed, there's even a term for it: Bernie or Bust.
Bernie or Bust hasn't gained much ground in the general population, but it's big here on DU. And it's stupid. When the primaries are over, we need to come together, unite behind the nominee, and defeat Trump. That goes whether it's Bernie or Hillary.
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)Maybe because Clinton and her supporters never pass an opportunity to belittle Sanders supporters, lie about him, make outrageous statements (praise Nancy) and act as if the 20th century never ended and millennials are ill-informed children who don't know their place?
You want unity? Stop sowing division.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Trump's policies, so the place their own feelings and desire for vengeance against Hillary and her supporters above the well-being of other people in the country who are not as fortunate as them.
If the were actually progressive, and believe what Bernie believes, they wouldn't even be entertaining the idea of letting Trump win.
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)But somehow, that doesn't seem to be a ligitimate position to you. I would put that down to bias, or the inversion of Clinton derangement syndrom.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)They don't want to think about Clinton, and they don't want to thing about Trump. They want to live in a happy fantasyland, and let other people deal with the actual consequences of the election. Like I said, privilege. Undocumented immigrants don't get to do that.
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)from any and all reality.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)I would have thought that the Nader/W debacle would have gotten the silly "it can't get worse" meme out of people's minds. But, no, here it is again.
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)As for things getting worse: I don't to choose between things getting much worse and things getting worse.
I want to vote for things getting better, and Clinton is doing sh*t all to earn that vote.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)I don't know you at all, but anyone who thinks that the difference between Trump and Hillary is irrelevant, because it's "worse" and "much worse" is a privileged person. A lot of people can't afford "much worse." You might personally be indifferent between the two, but families that will be torn apart due to mass deportation are not.
That's far from the only difference between the two, but even if Clinton and Trump were identical in all other respects, that would already be enough for any progressive to easily favor Clinton. And anyone who doesn't has no business calling themselves progressive or liberal.
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)redstateblues
(10,565 posts)I wonder how many millennialist remember that
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)happens sooner.
And then all of the Trump Humpers will magically disappear.
XRubicon
(2,212 posts)In the general I am going to vote in my self interest, I will vote and it won't be for a repub.
Bjornsdotter
(6,123 posts).....I think I'm going to need more popcorn, the show is getting good.
You will vote as we say and you will like it.
Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)Hitler or Mussolini, for instance, or Nixon or Reagan (again), I would.
Some folks seem to not be willing to do it even without a time machine.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)candidate who went on TV and told the nation Reagan was a hero for doing the very things he did not do, the very thing I spent years protesting him for not doing. So going back in time changes nothing, you are still eventually asked to endorse Ron and Nancy no matter what.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)I have a lot of worries and that's what drives my vote. Why wouldn't I?
Response to DanTex (Original post)
PoliticalPothead This message was self-deleted by its author.
PoliticalPothead
(220 posts)I've transcribed the part that I think is most important, it starts at about 4:20.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)If the answer is no: if there were, and it was your family that Trump wanted to tear apart, do you think you'd feel differently about "Bernie or Bust"?
PoliticalPothead
(220 posts)And he was deported while Obama was in office, so I have no faith that Hillary (who is further to the right than Obama) will be any better than Trump when it comes to undocumented immigrants.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)even though she and the Democratic party have been advocating for a path to citizenship, whereas forceful deportation is the cornerstone of Trump's campaign.
You actually believe Hillary will be no better. That is staggeringly misinformed.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)someone said they are related to such a person and you dismissed and insulted them. Both Parties deport people who should not be, worse there are detention abuses and a long list of injustices, and sure Trump is the worst but this is a Primary and the choice is not Trump or the other, it is who will be the other. Many persons think Bernie is better than Hillary on this issue. And that is the entire subject matter of GDP, not the GE.
Our choices right now are not about Republicans, they are about Democrats. To discuss Trump, you need to be in GD.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)I'm talking about the general election. Skinner has already said that discussions of the GE that involve the names of current primary participants belong here, not in GD.
Anyone not voting D in the general, whether it's Bernie or Hillary, is not remotely progressive, and yes, is acting out of immense privilege.
PoliticalPothead
(220 posts)I don't think Trump will either. Trump is like Hillary in that he'll say anything to get elected. I don't believe either of them will follow through on their campaign promises should they become president.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Please, do tell, what wonderful immigration policies do you think Trump will have for us.
PoliticalPothead
(220 posts)Which is what all politicians do if they want to get elected.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)won't do any of the things he's talking about. If you believe that, then I can see why you would vote third party in order to facilitate his presidency.
PoliticalPothead
(220 posts)I just don't take his campaign rhetoric seriously. I've been through enough elections to know that the people the candidates pander to during the campaign are usually the first to be disappointed when that candidate gets elected.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)becoming president over her. I personally think that letting a hate-fueled racist who at least seems pretty darn intent on implementing a bunch of horrific policies to be a horrible idea. But, hey, that's me. I'm a progressive.
PoliticalPothead
(220 posts)He will also be better than Hillary on some issues (trade and foreign policy come to mind) and on some issues he will be no different. I believe immigration is one of those issues. Why would Trump want to deport undocumented immigrants when his businesses profit from undocumented labor? I don't think either Trump nor Hillary will do anything to change the status quo when it comes to immigration. They are both merely pandering to their respective bases.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)PoliticalPothead
(220 posts)Hillary is a warmonger who supported the Iraq war and the overthrow of Gaddafi which turned Libya from the country with the highest standard of living in Africa into a failed state. She also supports the overthrow of Bashar Assad in Syria, which Trump opposes (if his campaign rhetoric is to be believed). Hillary does have a leg up on Trump when it comes to the Iran nuclear deal though.
For the record, I wouldn't trust either of them to be CIC.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)One assumes you have no such family nor even dear friends. And you don't really want to hear first hand stories either.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)I mocked the notion that Hillary would be as bad as Trump on immigration. Which is thoroughly mockworthy.
BTW, how do you feel about Bernie or Bust, given that you're entered into this discussion?
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)I'm just not voting for a Republican or someone who collaborates with Republicans on those same issues.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)which is basically the same as refusing to vote against that ballot proposition.
And no, Hillary is not the same as Trump on any of those issues.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)My ballot comes with more than two choices.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Being able to afford to vote for Jill Stein is an immense privilege. It means that you are well-to-do enough that Trump's policies won't harm you, and you can vote your feelings rather than thinking about reality.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)I don't "waste" my vote on wealthy centrists".
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)How about you? "Dead Broke" Like the Clintons?
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)You are trying to use the GE as a primary tool, furtively. It sucks. This OP is about Trump and belongs in GD.
We are in the middle of a Primary. Bernie routed Hillary twice last night. This is GDP.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)k8conant
(3,030 posts)Newkularblue
(130 posts)You prevent what you vote AGAINST. Im personally tired of the 'prevent' defense and am willing to embrace real change.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)You can't have it both ways.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)This is obvious, we can't afford Trump, it would be a disaster.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)That argument will neither persuade them or strengthen the Democratic Party if Hillary becomes the nominee.