"Hey look, those rich guys are living it up, let's go get some for us."

Pay for the infrastructure they use, pay their share of the defense budget that protects them. Help feed the 50,000,000 Americans living in poverty that you guys seem to be able to ignore in the quest for bigger and bigger wealth for the Ruling Class.

The wealthy gap is continue to widen and you mock those fighting for those struggling with Goldman-Sachs and the Clintons reap millions, tens of millions for their personal hordes.

The hubris of the Ruling Class will eventually be their downfall. You can only suppress people so much.

The more people know about Bernie, the more they like him. And the more they contrast the histories of the two candidates. And THAT is what Hillary hates the most!

And it worked the other way for me. At first glance, I liked Sanders. Then Sanders fatigue set in. The more I got to know Sanders, the more I disliked him. Most of his positions are agreeable to me, but I flat out don't like who he is as a person. There is too much vinegar and anger there. I don't like "my way or the highway" personalities, who do not understand the virtue of playing well with others to achieve common goals. I don't like his demeanor; I don't like his scorn for the Democratic party; I don't like his finger-pointing; I don't like his blaming others for the glitches of his own campaign; I don't respect his upper staff choices; I don't like his naivete about the issues of women and minorities; I don't like his tepid positions on gun control; I don't like his "political" choice to back the F35; I don't like some of his childish and churlish supporters, who act more like snarling wolves than adults; I don't like personality cults; I worry about potential presidents who have few Democratic friends in the House and Senate. I really wish that the progressive banner had a superior and less grumpy bearer in this primary. Incidentally, I don't care for Hillary either, for numerous reasons; but I will vote for the Democratic nominee in the general election. Anyone on our Democratic side is better than anything on their side.

top it off with a rude emoticon. Classy.

You side with the billionaires at the expense of those living in poverty. Take a chance and vote against the corrupt culture brought to us by Citizens United and the Corp-Media.

Rush Limbaugh's on line one -- he'd like his talking point back, please:

http://mediamatters.org/research/2012/01/30/right-wing-media-have-been-beating-the-drums-of/133098

I'll follow you and respond in kind.. Since you posted the same exact thing, so will I..


"You and your cronies are going to try and pull this shit for seven months. Scare or guilt us into voting for her.

We will get what we deserve for not embracing real actual change and a true liberal, progressive agenda.

I speak for myself only. She DOES NOT stand for the issues most important to me. She has been wrong time and again on the issues that are important to me. She is incapable of being believed. I'm not buying what she is selling because it has been proven time and again she will say ANYTHING to anyone to get her elected.

This is how bad of a GE candidate that she is. That you have to SCARE other Democrats into voting for her.

If she was worth a damn as a candidate, this primary would be over and the GE would be in the bag."

Your friend below though thinks that my vote will lead to back-alley abortions and mass deportations.

that they need to vote. Tell the millions of Americans that are not allowed to vote because of disenfranchisement that they should vote. Tell those that see their votes changed by machines owned by your Rich and Powerful Ruling Class, the importance of their vote.

The system is rigged to keep progressives out of the presidency. Why should people participate in a rigged election system?

And how are you blind to the fact that having one party so terrible that we are manipulated into supporting the Conservative Democrat that answers to the Ruling Class.

In Russia they only give you only the choice of the Ruling Class to vote for.
In the USofA we are better, we give you your choice of the Ruling Class's choice or a disaster. It makes the authoritarians among us feel good thinking they have a choice.

"The elections are rigged..."

Only the elections that Sanders lost. The elections he's won to date a pure and righteous (implying as much makes the irrational among us feel good and think they have a point worth contributing).

of AA voters in Florida that stood in lines only to never get to vote? I can seeing you shaking your finger at them if they were to say bullshit on the rigged system. Nothing to do with Sanders.

The thousands and thousands that have come out to support Sanders are doing so to fight the corrupt system that favors the candidate chosen by the Ruling Class. It takes some nerve to steal the nomination and then threaten those that have been disenfranchised.

Funny how the DINO's were all upset with the election shenanigans of the Ruling Class in 2000 and 2004 but now are ok with those same shenanigans because they now have chosen to side with the Ruling Wealthy Class.

By the way, the Ruling Class that you side with want Clinton but will settle for Trump.

Dare to fight against the corruption of big money, vote Sen Sanders.

voting choices. May you enjoy your life of privilege.

I'm glad you are privileged to have not been sent my Tikrit due to Clinton's authorization of military force.

I'm glad you weren't shamed by Clinton's stance on gay marriage

I'm glad you didn't lose your job due to her support of disastrous trade policies

Get off your high horse Danny boy.

and nothing is going to change anything in the past, for better or worse. In the face of something as bad as Trump, sitting out is an act of astounding privilege.

Trump is the other choice. Which renders you fearmongering a rather biased excercise in belittling principled voters.

Thank you Betty

#stillSanders

What are all these HRC supporters always pushing these OPs that reek of republican light ideology / aspects?

a simple perusal of HRC voting record and position shifts throughout her career validates the point...

political expediency is her milieu

It's hilarious to watch HRC supporters spin all these OPs that attempt to deflect scrutiny of their candidate, if any of it were to be believed the 'strength' of their candidate should easily weather completing the primary race to allow all states to vote, as well as throughout the GE if she were to win the primary

if politics is hardball why are HRC supporters asking for only softballs?

I don't think she's GOP-lite, but the place to determine that is the primary. So knock yourself out with the arguments you have against her. You've got to make up 300 delegates in the rest of the states, I don't see it happening, but if it does, then Bernie gets the nod.

Either way, once we have a nominee, it's D against R. And not voting D at that point is just plain stupid.

And we'll get President Trump because of it.

It's you that supports the candidate that works for the Ruling Class.

Speaking of suffering consequences, many have already suffered the consequences of the Clinton Aristocracy that you revere.

500,000 Iraqis were brutally killed and 5 million became refugees.

Thousands of American troops killed and tens of thousands wounded. 21 vets commit suicide daily.

5 trillion dollars moved from the 99% to the 1%. The Clintons have amassed $150,000,000 themselves.

Millions have lost homes, jobs and retirements.

And how about our full Prisons For Profits??

so yeah, stop fearmongering.

But for those of us who are tired of the slow death of incrementalism, not enough so to be herded into another pen.

But, regardless, "marginally" or not, she's better, and if she's the nominee, there will be two choices, and she will be the better one.

between DT and HRC which is worse?

what about how much worse we will be with either of them as president based upon the liberal / progressive ideology the Democratic party is founded upon?

How about we breakdown to the exact details of either choice you present and let's see how much worse off we really will be shall we or is that to specific for you and you'd rather generalize since that 'protects' you and your OP?

Are you up for that challenge?

He's pro-life. He's for mass deportation. He's openly advocated for war crimes. He's racist. He's sexist. He wants to ban Muslims from entering the country. He wants huge tax cuts for the wealthy. He wants to get rid of Obamacare. He's a climate denier.

Could it possibly be more clear?

clarity comes after you detail EACH out, DT and HRC...

HRC is republican light, once you post the details of her policy shifts and position changes that validates the point

DT is just further right than HRC by how much will be shown when you detail each out...

I get you WON'T do this since doing so will prove my point but I will ask anyway

Even if you pick just one, it's already enough to make Hillary a hundred times better than Trump. E.g. abortion. Trump is pro-life, and the court is in the balance. Already in Texas and other states women are being denied reproductive care, and SCOTUS couldn't block it because it was 4-4. So even if Trump and Hillary were identical in every other way (which they are far from), right there you have a hugely consequential difference, that will affect many people's lives.

you gave a generalized list of DT statements / positions

I specifically asked for detailed positions from both DT and HRC to COMPARE and contrast those two against each other

I get that you will AVOID following up with details but I will ask anyways...

Time for you to give a little: do you think Hillary is worse than Trump or not?

what about the other policy positions, do those matter or are we going to continue to play this game out you're attempting to corner me into?

how far does intellectual dishonesty need to go here with your OP?

HRC is republican light, DT is just 'more' republican so the 'distance' between the two on all their policies should matter here to everyone else... to you it appears to not matter

Question: Do you think Trump is worse than Hillary?

If it comes to choosing between the two, and it looks like it will, that's the only question that matters.

"there are tons of others, but any one of them is enough to make her far better"

thx for playing, I'll consider your OP a losing endeavor and just another attempt to be intellectually disingenuous

have a nice day!

Yeah right, whatever makes you feel 'confident' in your OP and that your 'winning'...

conjures memories of Charlie Sheen and his comments about 'winning'...

let me know when you decide to actually step up with details, until then have fun with your OP, LOL...

Cummon man, it's the internet, you can lie you face off. Instead you play coy and act like there is something wrong with cheering for the Democratic team.

big troll or little...

got your trolling stick out I see, big troll or little troll today?

First it's Bernie couldn't get anything done because congress would stop him.

Then it's only Hillary can get things done because she's pragmatic and goes for what is realistic - basically incrementalism.

Now it's "OMG! If Trump is elected he will get everything he wants or has ever mentioned!!!!"

Do I think Trump is worse? Sure. He's overtly racist.

Do I think Hillary is really bad? Sure. She's done a lot of things that can be viewed as implicitly racist. That's in addition to the corruption and lies - as well as the fact that she's bought and paid for by Wall St and will accomplish nothing beneficial to anyone not making millions. Are there any policies she has that would benefit the middle class and below? Meh, tepid at best and I feel she'll drop what little support she's shown before Nov anyway.

Realistically would either get much accomplished? Probably not.

Is fear a good motivator? Nope.
Are people tired of others trying to scare them all the time? Yep.




For the inevitable jurors, once the alerting Hillary supporter wakes from their fainting:
The Terms of Service clearly state "But that does not mean that DU members are required to always be completely supportive of Democrats. During the ups-and-downs of politics and policy-making, it is perfectly normal to have mixed feelings about the Democratic officials we worked hard to help elect."

When it comes down to a choice between Trump and Hillary, which it looks like it will be (maybe Hillary vs Cruz) then I'm glad we can count on your vote for the better of the two.

You really can't just cherry-pick what someone says, but then ignorance is bliss eh?

My statements did not imply in any way that I would vote for Hillary should that occur. Most likely, I will not. Regardless, my vote is my own to choose what I will do with it. I can say that I don't live in fear though.

Do you understand what the words "worse" and "better" mean? You're telling me that if you have two options, you're not going to go with the "better" one?

Now that is privilege. You understand that Trump would be a disaster, but, meh, you don't even care! It's like not bothering to bend down and pick up a $10 bill.

Twist it however you want.

I'm not really interested in a choice between a poop sandwich and a poop salad - even though you argue "But one has lettuce!"

You can choose better, or worse. Maybe you've lived the kind of life where there have never been tough choices, you've always been able to opt for a unicorn. Welcome to reality. The choices are D and R.

by the Ruling Class. The result is that you support the status quo that is getting worse and worse. And all you got is, "it could be worse".

I work at a foodbank and esp with the homeless. To them it couldn't get worse. They need progressive leadership in the WH and not someone that accepts graft from Goldman-Sachs to deregulate the banks more and more.

You need to decide "profits or people".

absurd, then I'd be just as unwilling as you to confront uncomfortable questions.

actually carrying on a discussion.

Millions of us are sick of the "best of evils" bullshit intimidation pulled by the Ruling Class and their minions. Some that think they are Democrats choose to side with the biggest bully, the Ruling Class, just like on the school yard. Those struggling are going to stand up to you and the Clinton Aristocracy and say "No More exploitation of the 99%. May the wealthy bastards choke on their money (metaphorically of course).

Who could possibly think that this is a relevant question to a presidential election in which Trump is running?

people to participate in a rigged system.

And I notice that you guys can't have a discussion without using your rude emoticons. How utterly childish.

Perhaps, Hillary is a secret Green.

or credit it solely to people falling prey to right-wing talking points or smears because surely none of that is true.

I would suggest that you examine that maybe, just maybe there is some legitimacy to other people's views.

It's just that we're calling it out.

Can you answer the question: do you think Trump is worse than Hillary?

It would seem pretty arrogant to throw around language like that in an attempt to sway people to your point for view. But that's not really what you're after is it?

You're mad because you think "If they'd only see what I see! Then they'd stop being so misguided and understand I'm right."

Also, I was replying. Nice of you to wait 5 min before throwing down your little gauntlet again about questions you aren't really seeking answers to - you're really just hoping for someone to say something that you can springboard off of and demean their viewpoints further in an effort to prove how they should all tremble in fear because of some weird future-blame or guilt you hope to saddle them with...

You can only control your own actions. If you are so concerned that some people don't agree with you, and won't vote for Hillary should she win the nomination, then your path is clear - vote for the candidate that they will vote for in Nov. If that's not your concern, well then you probably shouldn't be posting this stuff huh?

The rest is just noise. Which you seem to make a lot of.

Yes, I get that some people will vote for Trump, and some people will vote third party. Those people are either right-wingers or privileged faux progressives who can afford a Trump presidency and don't care about the rest of us.

You're certainly not winning any converts with this post, or the arrogant responses. But then, you're not really wanting converts are you? The only benefit to you would be some additional smugness in your belief that you're more right than everyone else and know what they should do if they'd only just listen to you... No, the real point of this post is just to troll for people that have principles and might respond.

I do like how people keep mutating the loyalty pledge stuff though, I mean since the other attempts have no logic, but it's fun to watch. This attempt now qualifies the statement with "enabling" the Republican rather than the blatantly false 0 + 0 = 1 argument that had been going around.

You keep dismissing responses as "noise". Did you want any responses at all or what this OP really just a tantrum?

Some would argue that you are the "faux" progressive, since you would sellout your beliefs so easily to fear. What you don't seem to realize is that it's always "THE MOST IMPORTANT ELECTION EVER IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD" and telling people that they should continue to vote for the lesser of two evils just means that nothing will ever change and the next election will again be "THE MOST IMPORTANT ELECTION EVER IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD" and so on.

Trust me, November will come, and there will be two choices. I'm suggesting opting for the better one, but if you don't care about the future of the nation, and your life won't be affected adversely by Trump, then I get why you would just rather stay home instead of going to the polls and voting. It's kind of a pain to do that.

but perhaps you'd fare better using it for stock picks instead of fear-mongering.

The problem is the degree of better. You see it as a lot. Many others see it as very little.

Your hyperbolic rants about people not caring "about the future of the nation" and assumptions about privilege are certainly not seeming to win you any converts here in this thread. So I ask again, what's your real reason for posting it? You just wanted to talk down to people that don't share your opinion and beat them over the head with a rhetorical "I'm right and you're not" stick?

Again you assume things incorrectly. I'm going to the polls no matter what. I will most likely just not vote for Hillary. I will certainly vote for Democrats in downticket races that I think are worthy of my vote.

Regardless of my future decision, you don't really have much ground to stand on for trying to guilt or blame anyone for something they don't agree with you on.

It's not a problem of degree, when choosing between better and worse, the better choice is the one to make. Voting third party is an obviously vote-waster that does nothing but placate your feelings at the expense of the future of the nation.

Oh, and yeah, it is the future of the nation that is at stake in a presidential election. You see, whoever wins it becomes president. And that's a big deal. So you don't need to put it in quotes.

Poop sandwich vs. poop salad.

Many will choose to go somewhere else to eat. The Sophie's choice argument you're making doesn't really work.

Voting third party or write-in, for those that do it does actually have some benefits.
1. They have not compromised their principles or soul
2. Eventually, if enough people stop sucking it up for the most important election ever and lesser of two evils, then the 3rd party could get over 5% and get public funding.
3. It demonstrates a lack of support for the campaigns of the main two candidates. This is a strong rebuke that is harder to shrug off. Yes, a lack of turnout is one sign, but another is that they voted in other races and chose not to vote for Clinton or Trump.

I'm sure there are a multitude of other reasons people will do it as well. Those were just ones I thought of offhand.

Yes, we understand whoever wins becomes president. I don't think anyone has stated otherwise. Do you have an actual point to make or as I questioned multiple times, is this just some weird vanity OP to allow you to rant?


Psst: I put "about the future of the nation" in quotes because I was quoting you.

It matters that there are two of them, and in such cases you pick the better one. There is zero chance of anyone else winning. The president will be one of two people. Third parties are not viable in a winner-take all two party system like we have. This isn't a parliament with proportional representation.

The very idea that you would sacrifice the future of the country in order to "not compromise your principles or soul" is mind-bogglingly privileged. Ohh, my poor principles, sorry about the 12 million deportations, but at least my poor widdle "soul" didn't get harmed.

I agree that every thing you said may matter to you. You fail to see that what you think people should do, doesn't matter to them.

I disagree though with your point. There will always be zero change until there is not. What I mean by that is that there will always be zero chance for a third party while people behave as you desire. Again, if 5% don't then the situation changes considerably for the Green Party or any other party receiving 5%.

"sacrifice the future of the country" Wow, such melodrama. Again, you throw out things that haven't happened yet and probably won't. What if I said we all need to vote Green Party because otherwise you're going to "sacrifice the future of the country" due to no Democrat or Republican having a strong enough position on global warming to do anything about it. Same thing.

But, yes, I get that what I think people should do doesn't matter to them. Especially privileged and selfish people who care more about keeping a "pure soul" than they do about millions of deportations and back alley abortions. They're not going to listen to me, but they certainly aren't progressives. And the good news is, pretty soon enablers of Trump aren't going to be posting here anymore.

BTW the Green Party will never change anything. The only thing they have ever accomplished is throwing the 2000 election to Trump, which is what Nader wanted. The Green Party could be a force for good, but instead they have a become a destructive force, allying themselves repeatedly with the GOP in order to defeat Dems and put right-wingers in office. And they doing it by convincing gullible and privileged people that their own feelings matter more than the future of the nation.

But since you're not 11 years old as you put it, you never answered my multiple questions about what your goal was here in this OP. It certainly isn't to win any converts.

Again with the privileged and selfish comments. You don't know the people that have enough of an issue with Hillary to not vote for her, yet you presume to understand why and that they are selfish. Those are awfully big assumptions on your part.

And again with the bs about "millions of deportations and back alley abortions". Prove that will happen. You say it will, and frankly I'm just tired of continuing on with someone that repeats such juvenile commentary. Many people don't share your belief that those things will happen.

You say it will happen. Prove it. Otherwise get off your high horse.

Did you think I was here to convert you? LOL. Believe me, I've discussed politics with plenty of people with bizarre and illogical beliefs before. I know better than to think that people who think such things can be swayed by logic.

And yes, again with the privileged and selfish comments. Absolutely. And yes, I know plenty of fringe-lefties and Greens. Not as many now as in grad school, but, believe me, I know the type. They have no skin in the game whatsoever, when Trump wins they'll go right back to reading Chomsky and it won't affect their livelihoods. They won't need back-alley abortions, they won't be getting deported, and they don't need a minimum wage job or a union membership.

Oh, and if you don't think that there will be millions of deportations and back alley abortions, then you aren't paying attention to the GOP. That's another hallmark of the greens. They have no clue what is actually going on in the world. Are you aware that the top candidates on the GOP side are Cruz and Trump? Do you know about the recent anti-abortion law that Texas passed?

Then what was your point in this OP? Was just to get some satisfaction maligning the beliefs of others?

tl;dr: Fear!

of voting Green. You don't actually think you're going to convince me to vote Green, are you?

I was merely commenting on why some people might do so, or the value they might see in it.

So your definition of political discussion is where you berate and insult people for their views by calling them selfish or privileged, then try to sccare them into agreeing with you? That's interesting.

Mine is where we present opposing viewpoints and try to truly, honestly and openly consider other views since I might just be wrong.

I'm guessing that's where the problem is...

Or assume their views are the only correct ones, and everyone else must yield.

Or on a different scale, I have a very low opinion of Hillary Clinton and Trump.

You think that talking about millions of people being deported or back alley abortions and all that is "fearmongering." Since you're not at any personal risk, you'd rather not talk about that stuff, so long as your "soul" is intact while Trump inflicts that and more on others.

Not me. I care about the future of the nation. So I'm going to shed some light on how much damage Bernie or Busters are actually doing, even if it might disrupt their fantasy worlds.

When all you have is fear then you are fear mongering.

Let me quote a member of the Clinton staff talking about their entire election strategy and then tell me Sanders supporters are making this up.

“The slogan is ‘Be Afraid. Be Very Afraid,’” said Paul Begala, who is an adviser to the pro-Clinton super PAC Priorities USA.

So yeah, that's the plan: fear mongering. Straight from the horses mouth.

not hahaha, but strange...

You're one of maybe two people I've seen ever to even dare claim something as insanely dishonest as that, that Bernie is fear mongering... it really is beyond even what your liar in chief would say... shocking stuff...

well, I mean I guess I would be shocked, except that you are deliberately following someone you know for a fact is dishonest, and know in your heart os corrupt... which says an awful lot about you...

TPP! Goldman Sachs! The sky is falling!

the truth with fear mongering...

And you are dishonest... it's directed at what you say though, so maybe a more accurate way to say it is that you have a habit of saying things which are patently false, and which you know are false.. so maybe you're an honest guy that just lies all the time... happier?

Trump as "fear mongering", while defending Bernie's much more questionable statements. Trump is most definitely in favor of mass deportation, of that there can be no debate. Whether TPP is as horrible as Bernie said is highly debatable -- see Krugman for example, who has called it "no big deal."

At the same time, we are supposed to burn everything down and start over, as in a "revolution." That's pretty scary too. But that fear mongering is OK.

"Hey, please don't do that, people could get hurt"
"Stop fearmongering!!!"

Up is down, black is white, big brother is watching.