2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumLet's talk reparations.
To be frank, I'm not sure what all they involve.
But, I had found myself reflexively (probably because of the way the media spits out the word) rolling my eyes at the hint of them.
Then I stopped and thought.
And though, again, I don't really know what it means to pay reparations to those who worked as unpaid slaves during the formative years of our economy and our nation...it seemed to me, and still does, a basic matter of justice.
Much like marriage equality, this formerly "out there" view, that the descendants of families upon whose backs this great nation was built, with only bare physical needs (in order to keep them working) were met would now, more than a century later, be due in some part payment for their labors and contributions, is a matter of basic humanity, fair and just - well, I think it may also be a matter of being on the right side of history.
marble falls
(56,029 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)marble falls
(56,029 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)He, neither, knew of, nor identified as begin Black ... nor, can he show that he was harmed by his unknown, unacknowledged racial heritage.
unblock
(51,920 posts)should a black person who was born in africa and has since become an american citizen, but has no slave ancestry get reparations?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Would that African, with no slave ancestry, have been equally subject to the jim crow laws of the fairly recent past? Would that African, with no slave ancestry, have been equally subject to the systemic racism that persists today?
If your answer to either, or both, question(s) is "Yes", then Yes ... reparations should be paid to both.
unblock
(51,920 posts)typically "reparations" are to mitigate damage done in the past from something specific.
so, are we paying reparations for slavery specifically? or slavery as well as jim crow? or even for current systemic problems?
i can't see "reparations" being paid for current problems, kinda by definition. first you have to *solve* the current problems to make them past problems, then what you pay is called reparations. if you pay now for problems that exist now and continue to exist, that's not "reparations", that's simply trying to solve the current problem.
moreover, if you pay for existing problems, does that mean someone like obama (50% black, presumably no slave ancestry) is in the same boat as someone who is also 50% black but descended from slaves and whose black side of the family has always been in america, subject to jim crow laws?
such details are always a challenge when discussing reparations, though of course the biggest problem is just how on earth do we get the powers that be to cough up the huge sums of money that would be necessary to make reparations anything other than a joke?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)so, are we paying reparations for slavery specifically? or slavery as well as jim crow? or even for current systemic problems?
this is a matter of a continuing harm, ie., the currect systemic racism flows from jim crow which flows from slavery ... the answer should be all three. But, I see your point here:
Wow, this is a curious statement ...
First, I'd like to gently point out that the "50% Black/white", is both a right-wing frame and ignorant of racial history ... Google: "1 drop rule" vis-à-vis racial designation.
unblock
(51,920 posts)we were in a thread where we were talking about a white supremacist who learns he's 18% black... and i fell into something i didn't mean to. the percentages were at best a distraction from my point, anyway:
moreover, if you pay for existing problems, does that mean someone like obama (presumably no slave ancestry) is in the same boat as someone who is also black but descended from slaves and whose family has always been in america, subject to jim crow laws?
i'm not familiar with all the details regarding austria's holocaust reparations, but i believe there was a formula behind my mother's payment. so one could imagine some reparations for descendants of slaves, further payments based on number of years and/or number of ancestors under jim crow, perhaps other factors as well.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)any questions?
unblock
(51,920 posts)there's no doubt whatsoever that there's been a long-running historical injustice that we still haven't completely fixed and that reparations are justified. i'm not questioning that at all, in fact i'm accepting it as a given.
my question is technical, trying to be precise about what the reparations are specifically meant to compensate for, and therefore, who would qualify and to what extent. all in the name of figuring out if there's a difference, for purposes of paying reparations, between a recent black immigrant or an american black descendant of slaves or a black descendant of slaves who is no longer in the u.s., or the "white supremacist who just learned he is 18% black" another poster questioned about above. do they all get reparations? to the same extent?
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)taxation without representation....or rights.
brush
(53,331 posts)It's human decency. And to those who complain that their taxes will go up, remember, Cheney/Bush didn't even raise taxes when they started two wars, an unprecedented occurrence. And btw, with reparations we're not talking about something without precedence. We paid reparations to Japanese Americans placed in internment camps during WWll, and the German government paid reparations to Jewish people who suffered during the holocaust.
To those who say the country can't afford it, how about the 12-20 trillion (THAT'S TRILLION WITH A "T" dollars that the banksters received when their and Cheney/Bush policies crashed the economy? We can afford it all right.
And of course we're not talking anywhere near that amount. And it would not be checks written to individuals maybe funds for education or small businesses or building of community facilities with minority businesses getting a fair share of the construction contracts?
Those are just ideas off the top of my head but there are many ways of fair distribution.
We need to get it done as you say, to be on the right side of history and karmic justice. It will ultimately be health for the country and the economy as you know those funds will be spent.
marble falls
(56,029 posts)brush
(53,331 posts)I left out the word "not" in the sentence about distribution. It should read:
". . . it would not be checks written to individuals maybe funds for education or small businesses or building of community facilities with minority businesses getting a fair share of the construction contracts?"
So it not about getting piles of cash.
Got it?
And if reparations were made to Japanese Americans victims of internment camps and to Israel and Jewish holocaust victims, what is the objection to reparations to the just as extreme, maybe even more extreme, crimes of 250 of enslavement and unpaid labor?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)WHAT ABOUT ME?!!!!!!!
Despite being completely unable to cite to a similar harm by the US government and the continuing harms of US society.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)--the difference is that we wouldn't be paying reparations to actual survivors of slavery, since they are all long deceased.
I don't know how we can provide justice in this situation. It's something that clearly should have been done long, long ago. Since it wasn't, I'm not sure what we can do now.
brush
(53,331 posts)still alive and kicking who suffered through the Jim Crow era and the segregation era and the negative legacies of all that, and are able to prove ancestry it's a very solvable problem. All the black people in this country didn't just materialize or get here on the Mayflower. We know the majority are here because of enslavement of their ancestors some just a couple of generations back.
No need to put up doubt roadblocks, we need to just get about finding solutions.
It can be done.
HeiressofBickworth
(2,682 posts)How would payments be made, individuals or communities?
If individuals, must they be able to trace their ancestors to slavery in the US.
Not all black people are descendents of slaves -- President Obama isn't, for example.
If not required to trace ancestors to slavery, how would individuals be singled out for payment?
How black do they need to be? President Obama is 50% (one parent).
How about someone who has only one grandparent who is black?
Or one great-grandparent?
If payable to a community, what would be the criteria for the community to be eligible for reparations?
Percentage of black population in the community?
Percentage of black unemployment in the community?
Percentage of black-owned businesses?
My personal preference would be to create scholarships -- full ride -- room, board and tuition -- for kids who graduate from high school.
Or, if the child prefers, full tuition, plus living expense, for a technical or trade school.
A check-in-hand would be gone in no time, but an education would pull people out of poverty for life.
P.S. It occurs to me that some may object to my use of the word "black". My wonderful, but now deceased, friend always referred to himself as black. He and I discussed reparations once. He wasn't sure how it would actually work.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Undiscussed solutions?
Also, please don't conflate equitable redress with lifting out of poverty. We do not place strictures on what accident victims/prevailing civil litigants can do with their awards.
cali
(114,904 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)And a first step in that discussion, would be the passage of H.B. 40
https://beta.congress.gov/bill/113th-congress/house-bill/40
cali
(114,904 posts)brush
(53,331 posts)I think your college scholarship idea has merit, and maybe business grants to business start-ups who've done the legitimate groundwork and business plan for their business.
Thinks like that can be worked out but no checks to individuals just because they are African American.
ANd BTW, the black reparations movement has been around for a while but we probably need to look at the harm done to Native Americans and Latino/a Americans as well.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Anybody that gets shortchanged, we step up and make them secure. Why should we have deprived people in a rich nation like the USA?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)But that has little to do with reparations.
tavernier
(12,299 posts)From the dawn of human history, man has always found it necessary to screw over his fellow man without apologies or paybacks. Sometimes karma has the last laugh... for instance, The Roman Empire is no more, but there are plenty of Christians running around.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Instituted a program of restitution, it may not have fallen?
tavernier
(12,299 posts)could give my grandparents back their home and their son, and their country, but they died as immigrants on foreign soil without ever seeing any of them again. I would love to call Mr. Putin and ask him to cut me a check, but I'm hoping karma will one day take care of him as well.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Reparations in the U.S. is about repairing the harms that the U.S. government worked against U.S. citizens.
brush
(53,331 posts)reparations paid to Japanese American internment camp victims of WWll, and billions in reparations paid to Israel by Germany for the holocaust?
And that's not going back to any dawn of history, that happened in the 1950s.
Those are 'real' instances in recent history at attempts to make egregiously victimized people somewhat whole.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)happened much later than the '50's. I believe it wasn't until the early '80's, and it was seen as highly controversial at the time.
brush
(53,331 posts)but the fact remains that it was done, even though it was controversial.
That will of course always be the case as there are people who can't see, or don't want to see that at least making the gesture towards making horrendously wronged people whole is the right thing to do.
Fortunately those that could see the justice in it prevailed.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)to Japanese Americans were made to the actual individuals whose property was lost and who were interned. It was specific. And limited. Each interned person received $20,000. Considering that homes, businesses, etc. that had been lost would probably have increased in value by a considerable amount in the nearly 50 intervening years, the reparations were merely symbolic.
brush
(53,331 posts)it was a symbolic gesture toward making up somewhat for the injustice they suffered.
The same can and should be done about the injustice (a much longer centuries long in fact and still on-going) time of injustice suffered by enslaved Africans and their linear descendants.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)to "enslaved Africans and their linear descendants." So, does that mean that if an African-American individual whose ancestors were never enslaved would get nothing? Are we going to apportion amounts based on number of ancestors who were enslaved? Can you imagine what it would take to do that? It reminds me very much of the bureaucracy set up in Nazi Germany to trace geneologies in order to determine who was an actual German and who were the Untermenschen. Frankly, I hope we never go there. I wouldn't want government officials rooting around in my family tree, and I can imagine that most people would feel the same way I do.
brush
(53,331 posts)of plenty of reasons not to make reparations. Why not just say that?
Horrendous injustices were done to millions of people, there are solutions that can be found to partially, and only partially, to make up for that, but I don't agree.
Just say it and stop coming up with roundabout reasons not to do it.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)Except none are alive.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)which followed slavery?
What about the Black wealth lost through the judicial and ex-judicial theft of land?
What about the Black wealth that lost through US governmental policy and programs that specifically excluded Black folks?
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)What about the millions of other governmentally sanctioned actions that you had no hand in deciding, or would have disagreed with, but are paid out of your (and my) tax dollar?
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)Reparations would have to be based on estimates of amounts lost or foregone
and would assume that everyone paying them had the benefit of those amounts,
which I have not.
Moreover, it is not clear who should be paid reparations, for how long.
And I had no role in the slave trade, nor did my ancestors, who were not in this country at the time.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)we all pay for "benefits" provided through governmental action, whether you, as an individual, benefited from it or not.
But that said, do you not believe there is no economic benefit that can be assigned to not having been subjected to jim crow or subsequent discriminatory government action?
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)If your point is that it is greater than zero, fine, it's greater than zero.
But it's less than infinity.
I have seen millions of normative arguments for reparations but exactly zero positive ones. Who gets to decide who
gets them, how much they get, for how long, and under what circumstances? Whose estimate of lost value gets
used? Why is theirs better than another estimate?
Don't bother answering - it's impossible to know.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)the Bill to commission a congressional study on Reparations.
And with all due respect:
There are, literally, hundreds of academic research papers on Reparations, that answer each of these questions.
Therefore,I believe the more accurate statement is you have seen exactly zero positive arguments that you are willing to accept.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)you cite to "millions of normative arguments for reparations but exactly zero positive ones" and, you question my claim of hundreds of pieces of academic research on reparation ... over 100+ years since the topic was first broached?
I'd ask you which would be the more credible claim on it's face, even if I spotted an order of 10 (and maybe even 100).
I normally would have dismissed your "Millions" remark, as hyperbole ... if it didn't serve as a near perfect example of why there can never be any serious discussion on the topic of Reparations, in particular; but race, in general ... People, particularly white people, declare or dismiss something based, simply, on their ignorant, ill-informed, opinion, and that is supposed to be the end of the discussion (e.g., "I have seen millions of normative arguments for reparations but exactly zero positive ones. Who gets to decide who gets them, how much they get, for how long, and under what circumstances? Whose estimate of lost value gets used? Why is theirs better than another estimate?
Don't bother answering - it's impossible to know."
Then, when others point, or elude, to actual facts/resources, that provable falsify the former's opinion/argument (e.g., "There are, literally, hundreds of academic research papers on Reparations, that answer each of these questions. )
... rather than engage, even the most basic, research to inform their thought/opinion, the formers, dismissively quibble about minutia, only to be proven incorrect ... again. (e.g. " Hundreds? I doubt that. nt)
So to answer your skepticism of the number of academic works of Reparations ... here are the results of a quick google search using the terms: "slavery+reparations+peer+reviewed+work". It resulted in 556,000 hits. And that is just the published peer reviewed academic work ... it does not include the masters and doctorate level research, not submitted for peer review.
(https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=slavery+reparations+peer+reviewed+work)
So YES ... Hundreds.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)Which would be extraordinarily difficult to run, considering all that must be controlled to
see just how much non-blacks are from blacks, and how other factors may mitigate that.
For example, suppose it can be proven that lower-income whites were discriminated against
in certain job markets. Should they pay the same as everyone else? If so, how do you figure?
If not, how much less?
Suppose a wage earner was murdered and a family had to go on welfare, and never recovered.
Do those descendants owe the same share even though they were economically challenged?
Suppose someone wins the lottery tomorrow. What's their share, compared to a family with old
money and ties to the plantation days?
The devil is the details. I don't see many details. Sorry you disagree. Looking at a few of the articles
you cited, the basic tenor seems to be "give money. A lot of it. Now." And I say, that's practically impossible.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Google search terms: black+reparations+economic+analysis+peer+reviewed+articles&sitesearch=&gws_rd=ssl
266,000 hits ... https://www.google.com/search?q=black+reparations+economic+analysis+peer+reviewed+articles&sitesearch=&gws_rd=ssl
Yep ... still "HUNDREDS.'
brush
(53,331 posts)Nothing should be done? Come on, there are grandchildren and great grandchildren who were not able to benefit from all the labor that their enslaved ancestors performed because it was UNPAID LABOR. With the principle of compounding all that labor is worth trillions. And no one is even talking about anything close to that. That unpaid labor and the property that it could have bought and could have been passed down is the big reason why the wealth gap between whites and blacks is so vast.
Look at it this way there was no centuries-long period of unpaid labor for white Americans. They were therefore able to educated and pass down, in many cases, property and other assets to their kids who then didn't have to start from zero.
After the Emancipation Proclamation African Americans had to start with nothing but the clothes on their backs in a hostile environment getting no benefit from 250 years of labor.
You have to know that in no way is that just.
We need to clear our thinking and stop with the "doubt roadblocks".
You don't just say "oh, we can't do anything because they're all dead."
THERE ARE RELATIVES VERY MUCH ALIVE!
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)white people opposed it.
cali
(114,904 posts)African-Americans are still living with the heritage of slavery. Day in and day out.
Igel
(35,173 posts)My mother's family were "white trash". After the Civil War they had a bunch of land that they'd had and continued to work it by themselves (as they had--no evidence of slave holding, not with a large family in a two-room shack).
In 1931 my mother's family was unemployed because of the Depression, lost their house, and her father died. She was 5, had two sisters, and were taken in by a man active in her mother's church. When my mother left home, all she had was what clothes she could put in a small suitcase and her education. She was a high-school drop-out. She worked in a garment factory until her newly found husband was sent to the brig for being AWOL from the Navy. Then she moved back in with her mother, taking her infant child with her.
My father's family moved up from Virginia as a consequence of a large family and Reconstruction. They kept their house during the Depression, but each brother got what fit in a suitcase. At the end there was no inheritance. He also had his high school education.
No inheritances. No wealth transmitted from generation to generation, not even a high school education in my mother's case. What wealth may have been built up for transmission was stripped out by the aftermath of the Civil War, then again by a depression in the late 1800s, then again by the 1929 depression. The best case for "reparations" would be "white privilege"--most people were hired locally, the community was established and stable before much of the Great Migration north and while the company was integrated before 1960 there was still discrimination (and the community was still largely white, which was true up through the late '80s). In the end the company finally just laid off people and laid off people until it vanished, and those who had worked there either retired or left, broke. Only the retirees really managed to accrue much wealth, and many of those expended that in retirement. Not many of the steelworkers kids went to college, and "public high school education" was their real wealth.
Which was true for everybody else in the area, as well. Meh.
Both my parents worked full time and were obsessional about not spending money, so my father was able to help (with my small scholarship) to get me through my undergrad degree. He paid off my student loan when I was unemployed during the recession in the early '80s.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Last edited Wed Jun 25, 2014, 02:53 PM - Edit history (1)
compare that to MY family history.
My mother's people were land owners in Alabama. They had their land "repossessed" by the court and "encouraged" to leave Alabama, despite owning the land free and clear and not owing a soul.
My father's people were land-owners in Mississippi. They had to abandon their free and clear property when they fled Mississippi, after killing the klansman sheriff caught in the act of raping and killing my Great Grandmother.
When they moved North only to be unable to purchase a house being the governmental program that backed mortgages, didn't back mortgages for Black folks. They both found it difficult to compete for jobs, as the factories posted societal and court sanctioned "No Coloreds Need Apply" signs. They both ultimately opened small businesses (a Butcher Shop and a Shoe-maker) that catered to the segregated Black community, only to see the businesses fail with desegregation, as Black folks could shop at white owned businesses (while entering and leaving through the back door, and being unable to try on their purchases), where whites never shopped in Black owned business (except bars and whore houses, both of which paid high tributes to the white police).
However, my Father's Father and my Mother's Mother valued education and made sure my parents completed high-school; and my parents made sure my sister and I went to college and beyond.
So despite your families' struggles, their American experience was wholly different from my family's and that difference was due to their race. The matter/issue of reparations starts with slavery, but doesn't stop there.
cilla4progress
(24,554 posts)I have no idea how it would work either. It just occurs to me that our country and economy would not have achieved its gains without the unpaid hard labor of an entire social class of forced immigrants, who never got to share in the profits.
How can that be fair?
TBF
(31,892 posts)"It just occurs to me that our country and economy would not have achieved its gains without the unpaid hard labor of an entire social class of forced immigrants, who never got to share in the profits."
I think reparations are a great idea. I also think we should ponder whether minimum wage workers living under capitalism really have it much better?
You've hit on the basic inherent problem of capitalism. Whether it's slavery with no payment or capitalism with very small payment the profits all go to a tiny few privileged at the top. The billions of people in this world (and likely tens of millions in this country) who work for little or nothing deserve much better.
cilla4progress
(24,554 posts)unblock
(51,920 posts)from the government of austria because she is a holocaust survivor.
the amount wasn't much, and but i mention it only because it shows it can happen.
some governments do pay reparations.
i can't see america doing this any time soon, though.