You have been one of my favorite posters.

And the feeling is mutual.

Of course they speak down to us who aren't the powerful elites.

I don't mind. By supporting Sanders, we are bucking conventional wisdom, which is pretty much all the media know, and therefore pretty much all the people know. So we're probably wrong. I don't care. The opportunity to support a truly different candidate comes along once in a blue moon, and I'm at the age where I know it will not happen again before I die, so this is it. If this is not the moment, at least it looks more like the moment than anything I have seen in my lifetime.

It is all they are PAID to *say* despite knowing differently.

I'm so sick of ethics for sale in this country that I could scream.

I know that if we don't elect Bernie, it will be a long, long time before anyone gets the chance to restore democracy to our country.

The oligarchy has taken charge to a degree few people realize.

People who have seen a bit of the inside without really being insiders -- as Fawke Em has done, realize what is going on.

A lot of Hillary supporters are just inexperienced and gullible. I hate to be like that, but it is very clear to me that many of them believe all the red, white and blue gibberish that the mainstream media dishes out to them.

I have been waiting my whole adult life for this candidate.
I too am too old to see another one like Bernie come along.
I wish there was some way for Elizabeth Warren to get more involved or certainly positioned to pick up where Bernie leaves off.

Peace

...that should (according to the pundits) win.

As an unmarried male, I'd rather try to court the person I love than to settle for a second rate marriage.
We've all seen those types of relationships and they suck.

I sometimes think about a couple women I might have married, instead of the woman I did marry, and it's not a nice image.

Thanks for the thread, Fawke Em.

This old lady is also tired of being talked down to - tired of the hippie-punching and red-baiting, the snide references to naive millenials, the baseless accusations of online poll-freeping, the pretentious attitude of being the only grown-ups in the room. If they can't sell their candidate on the basis of her policies and positions, do they really think we can be persuaded by insulting us? Nobody was ever converted to a different position through insults. Or is it just about scoring magic Internet points?

Because they have nothing persuasive to offer...and they don't care because they are convinced she will win by hook or by crook because the party power is with her, and power is where their faith lies. And if she does win it that way it will not work out like they think it will.

And they are not worried about us not voting for her in the GE...they don't have to because it is her or the crazy ones.
But what they fail to understand is that the independent voters outnumber Democrats and it is their vote that will decide the next election not us.

Your are right in this, "and they don't care because they are convinced she will win by hook or by crook because the party power is with her".

The PTB demand that the status quo continues and don't want and/or need anyone to disrupt it. The PTB will try to steal the primary election for Hillary.

Yes, they're scared, because of what you wrote, "the independent voters outnumber Democrats and it is their vote that will decide the next election not us." Thus the manipulation of voting machines in the primary in favor of the status quo, iow, Hillary.

They're very afraid of Bernie, as they should be, because he will throw a wrench into their money-making machine.

The ones they've co-opted from Bernie, that is.

There is no way Clinton can win on issues.

it's her image that's the "important" thing.

Bleah.

I could not agree more.

about CNN also being in the bag for the establishment candidate.

How did that come to be considered a conspiracy analogous to the faking the moon landing?

Everyone on this board has complained about the mainstream media at some time or another. Why is it so difficult to believe that an organization owned by a huge corporation doesn't have an ulterior motive?

These corporations don't want a president (and a congress) who will further regulate them, make them pay their taxes and get the money out of politics so that their share of campaign-funded ads is curbed.

or get a promotion at such an organization, thereby resulting in an influx of personal wealth, well, it's pretty easy for some to sell out our political system, the institution of journalism and hell, that Bill of Rights applies to somebody else.

I'm not going to be apologetic that I say we are entering some politically dark times if we as the American people on the whole don't get our shit together.

I'd like an economy that benefited the Middle Class, the police to stop strutting around like they are in a warzone with gear to match, and some controls on Wall Street so that they can quit sending us in a tailspin every seven years like clockwork, only to proclaim "no one could have predicted this".

No need to apologize for that.

I can't remember if I made a post about it or not or whatever. It's just as likely I complained to my SO and just dropped out of the loop for a while.

It's kind of disheartening to read thread after thread about how "childish" or "cult-like" you are because you both know the score and enthusiastically support a candidate.

Voting is one of the most adult things you can do, so it makes it more of a pleasure when you can cast a vote for someone and not against someone else.

I was very happy to vote for Obama too. I think it's wrong to not vote. I am always shocked when I find people that don't.

And yes, I am tired of being called one of the many names they have for us. But, I guess it's okay kind of shows desperation on their part.

wasn't. Her IT team didn't add encryption or even change the factory settings on the server.

Sorry if that wasn't clear.

I'll sit here and wait for you to back up those assertions.

...or potential supporters, should the nomination indeed go their way.

and doubling down on the rhetoric which attracts critical comments.

Oh yeah ... and Bernie is winning all 50 states .... so I should stop posting already.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251650529

of exactly what was discussed in the OP.

That was almost too perfect wasn't it? Sadly, I think the irony is lost on Cosmicone though.

The op rang the bell and look who came running!

Here's a hug to make you feel better:

I was going to post essentially the same @#$&ing thing, but as SARCASM

Now what am I to do? I'm screwed!

He will know what to do.

like Nathan Poe himself suggested.

I'm known for my own lampooning of the counterproductive wingnut set, but you long ago made it indistinguishable from the real thing.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

Really a poster child for what the OP is talking about isn't it? Rhetorical question, of course.

The OP tells them what they cannot say.

But Free Speech is, and they are going to have to put up with it. BS and his supporters appear to dislike criticism while dishing it out just fine to others.

However, calling left-leaning adults "children" or "Ron Paul supporters" isn't legitimate criticism. It's name-calling. If they want to get into a discussion on the merits of the issues, then we'll have a discussion.

But, given Hillary's ever-changing positions, it's impossible for them to do that, so they resort to sixth-grade bullying tactics.

They're well within their rights to do that, of course, but it just shows how bereft they are of weapons for a meaningful debate.

The media are the propaganda arm of the big corporations and promote the corporate candidates, and promote the illusion of democracy. He's talked about this for decades. He also points out that the Founding Fathers wanted a governing elite--real estate owning white males. Not democracy where white women and black men and women and poor people, non land owning, because back then real estate was the main basis of wealth, voted for candidates.

Public relations was invented by Edward Bernays. He invented the idea of companies putting out press releases to highlight new products, deflect criticism, or whatever.

Who was Edward Bernays? He was Sigmund Freud's nephew. Freud's wife was Martha Bernays. Nephew took the desires that Freud had discovered - to be socially popular, to be sexually attractive, to feel young and virile, to be a good housewife, to be part of a group identity, or conversely, an elite and therefore unique individual - and put them to work in advertising. He quickly learned that PR and advertising could sell people anything as propaganda, whether it be a product or a candidate, using the desires of ordinary people.

There is a BBC documentary called "The Century of the Self" you can watch on Youtube. It explains how the advertising and PR industries developed.

The story that broke yesterday about Debbie Wasserman Schultz dis-inviting Tulsi Gabbard to the debates, and setting an autocratic debate schedule, and being determined that Hillary be the anointed one, should not be a real surprise to anyone who knows the media are owned by a handful of giant companies.

it is always beholden to its customers.

GM would be nothing if "people" didn't buy GM cars.
Procter & Gamble will be on its knees if "people" didn't buy downy or tide or dial or charmin
Kellog's would disappear if "people" stopped eating cereals

The people who whine about corporations are the ones who lack the critical mass to change a corporation's actions.
Noam Chomsky is a classic example. For all his vitriol over the years, he has not been able to attract "people" to gather en masse and support his views.

The great thing about America is that it is also a marketplace for ideas and thought. Ideas that people like sell and ideas that people reject either sit on the shelf or are sent to a paper shredder.

Bernie and Hillary have been on a level playing field and both had the exact same opportunity to market their ideas. Unfortunately, 75% of the democrats do not want a socialist revolution. Them's the breaks.

It is an inconvenient truth that despite an army of internet warriors wearing their fingers to the bone on the internet, people have not moved and it is looking increasingly likely that they won't move. This is despite the constantly unfair attacks on Hillary from the moderately asinine that she represents wall street, she is a corporatist, she is a criminal, she is a flip-flopper to the extremely looney about Vince Foster and secret lesbianism.

It is time to accept the inconvenient truth that people are not buying Bernie's message no matter how salubrious his supporters may think it is. Insisting on the same message over and over and expecting different results leads to Einstein's definition.

At least the so called "corporations" (which are also owned by people by the way) will change the soap/cereal/car design formula if it is not selling and come up with a better product.

Steadfastly insisting that people should like one's product and then blaming/attacking people who are not buying that product is the wrong strategy.

They lied to the EPA and a lot of other people, and somehow it came out.

Usually a large corporation will lie about all sorts of things and get away with it because there is nobody to stop them. If a whistleblower comes out, their lives will be ruined, and they will be called a crazy nutcase and a disgruntled employee with "an ax to grind".

And who owns the majority of the stock in these large corporations? Your average blue-collar working stiff? No. The wealthy.

Oftentimes the big corporations do not give us choices because all their products are basically the same, and any differences are accounted for by marketing and advertising. All the choices between companies in one product line may all be terrible, and the consumer doesn't know it, because the consumer doesn't know what a quality product looks like or acts like, and now we're all buying cheap Chinese crap in many cases. When only a few giant companies control 95% of the market in a particular product, and we don't have many choices, we don't have real competition. They want to keep their market share. So Americans buy what is advertised to them. The worst case of this is the high prices of prescription medications and health care compared to the rest of the world.

We don't have competition among big corporations. We have rule by big corporations and the illusion of competition.

The ultimate corporation with no competition that I have seen is Wal-Mart. It took over the rural market and is usually the ONLY store that you can buy many things at. Small businesses have been driven out of business. You can't find a local business to buy a good or service at, and if you do, the chances are really good, especially in rural America, that they are incompetent. A lot of business in America is based on lies and bullshit. And the cost to taxpayers of each Wal-Mart store, in the costs of food stamps and government aid because Wal-Mart does not pay a living wage, is something between 900K a year and $1.6 million per year. Subsidized by the taxpayers when it should be paid by the wealthy corporations. Corporations put the burden of risk (via bailouts) and their failure to pay a living wage on the taxpayer and privatize the profits.


In the town I live in now, population 1,400, when I went shopping with my grandmother in the 60s, there was a dry goods store, a doctor, a dentist, a veterinarian (important when you have farm animals as well as pets),a pharmacist, a movie theater, a dry cleaners, and two grocery stores. Now all those businesses are gone. The only two viable businesses besides the two banks are a Dollar General store and a Subway sandwich store. And about 3 crappy gas stations/convenience stores where I can't even get a receipt out of the gas pump. Keeping paper in the gas pump for receipts is beyond the capabilities of the owners.

I have to drive 20 miles just to buy groceries and any other necessities of life.


If I want to buy quality goods at a real department store with helpful salespeople, like Nordstrom or Neiman-Marcus, I have to drive 150 miles to the city. And of course the vibe is completely different in Nordstrom than it is in Wal-Mart or a dollar store. It's the race to the bottom with no middle class to buy stuff. No middle class stores as a result.




GM started making cars better because people started buying Japanese cars and the Japanese cars were far ahead of the American Big Three in quality. People noticed. They started partnering with the Japanese companies such as Ford with Mazda. The Japanese started building their American assembly lines in Southern, non-union states and using us as a third world country for their labor. So did the German auto industry. Then the Koreans came along and started competing in the American car market as well. The Big Three were AGAINST seat belts and air bags. They did not even want to consider safety as a selling point. I thought wanting safety was part of human nature, but apparently the guys in Detroit knew better than the consumer.


Japanese engineering is a lot more precise than American engineering. As an example, I know someone who was a project engineer working for an American subcontractor, on a huge oil rig built by Mitsubishi for Royal Dutch Shell. The American engineers were sloppy. The Mitsubishi folks had their calculations down to FIVE significant digits. The Americans had to go back and recalculate their specs in order to not look like fools.

This is when Detroit was getting their asses whipped starting in the 1970s and had no idea why.

That VW reprogrammed their computers to lie about emissions, that GM got run over by the Japanese car makers, or that in many industries there really isn't competition because most products are similar and the consumer doesn't know about alternative products in the same category?

Most people don't read labels and most large companies LIE about what's on their labels or fight against ingredient labeling. Oftentimes I can find four different kinds of sugar in the first ten ingredients.

and they're not the evil that they're portrayed as by certain people on DU. Surely there are bad apples but by and large, corporations perish if they don't keep shareholders and customers happy.

I can tell you in my hometown, there was a large farm parcel that WalMart wanted to build a "super center" on. They fought for years to build there and ultimately won, with the help of some underhanded transactions. After that, there were home along that highway that were either bought out and bulldozed for new businesses or morphed into "law offices" etc. That one mile stretch of highway looks nothing like it did just 20 years ago. Maybe that's the way it goes, but it certainly changed the face of the town. And WalMart isn't one to give back to the community in any meaningful way

Thank you so much for that Summation!

It's a shame that Cosmicone ignored your well-reasoned argument: Capitalism only works if there is justice to keep it honest and above board. (You provided plenty of examples but the best example is the degree to which we extract natural resources, dump toxic waste into an overburdened environment, and make our grandchildren pay the consequences of an unlivable earth. Yet it's all legal and financially viable way to make a profit today, while damning tomorrow.)

Corruption is in every system that lacks integrity.

This why we need Bernie.

I didn't post to your original point because I took those classes.

I wanted others to see your point without me mussing it up coz I knew I was generating heat.

I want to thank you for posting in this thread. I love that I have attracted the Best of DU. Gosh, I want to see more of you!

I have had a crush on Pete Townshend since I was 12. Guitar gods are my favorite.

I had not seen you before.

I think Brian May is my personal jesus. Guitar god, fabulous musician, rock star sex god, Ph.D. in Astrophysics.

I saw Brian & Roger & Adam Lambert in the summer of 2014 on tour in North America. I never saw them back in the day because I didn't buy their albums, and therefore didn't realize how good they were. I had only heard the loud, obnoxious, metal like stuff on the radio. How I missed the gorgeousness of Brian May, I don't know.

I used to have a crush on Pete, but now that they are old, I think I like Roger better. He can still sing fabulously well. I'm a classical pianist but I loved growing up with 60s, 70s and 80s rock and roll, and The Police and Queen are my favorite bands. I spent half my time listening to classical radio, and half my time listening to Top 40 and later FM AOR radio.

My other guitar god crushes are Sting and Andy Summers of The Police (Andy is a jazz expert with classical chops) and Pat Metheny. My keyboard playing crush is Steve Winwood. I've loved him for 50 years. My standup crush is Lewis Black. I made him laugh once after a show. I'm putting that on my resume.

When I was in college I was into prog rock because that was keyboard based and I'm a piano player. I wanted to be Rick Wakeman.

Last weekend I saw Joe Jackson on tour. He is a genre unto himself. As far as pop piano players, I can play along with his CDs and see where his head is at, because of his classical chops.

I like guys that are musicians and math/physics nerds. When I was in orchestra I dated classical fiddlers (violin, viola, cello, string bass). Seemed like everybody I knew in the orchestras I was in was a programmer or mathematician for a day job.

I've seen a lot of guitar gods in my time: Pepe, Angel and Celedonio Romero, Gatemouth Brown, Chet Atkins, Frank Zappa, Brian May, Tom Petty, Alvin Lee of Ten Years After, Robin Trower, and probably a few others I have forgotten about.

and economies of scale mean it can sell the same thing at lower prices, unfortunately, the customers go to Big Company and the little companies fold. This seems to be a truth that we cannot get around. Ranting and raving about revolutions does not cause the average person to reject the Big Company for the little companies. People will do what they think best for them. As such, they have allowed Big Companies to get bigger.

so now that it has been confirmed, why should i trust the secret software in the voting machines?

We saw trust is not a machine attribute as evidenced by the debate results. We are fools to think the primary results will be different, bigger fools come the general...

Thanks for the tip! Synthetic products are getting more and more toxic anyway. Let's go for something authentic like that genuine and unique Bernie Sanders. Not produced on an assembly line and environmentally friendly.

In the marketplace of ideas, Bernie's ideas are not selling. Change message, change tactics, advertise differently -- sell Bernie to the people and if they buy it, no one will have to whine.

Attacking Hillary, Hillary's supporters or people who endorse Hillary doesn't do diddly for Bernie. Amirite?

Bernie is a great candidate and I'd happily support him in GE if he wins the nomination -- he has a lot to sell for and instead of selling, you are wasting your time in attacking Hillary and her supporters.

Attacking Dean didn't get a single vote for Bernie.
Attacking John Lewis didn't get a single vote for Bernie.
Attacking us on DU and hiding our posts won't get a single vote for Bernie.

If there are two hot dog stands, one stand is liked by 50% of the customers, the other stand by 25% of the people. Saying that the 50% have no taste, that the other stand vendor is a crook or a liar or a flip-flopper or in the pocket of the corporations won't help you sell your hot dogs. You have to analyze why the other hot dogs are popular and improve your hot dog to see an increase in sales. It is really not rocket science.

but logic challenged people get entertained for different reasons than those who are endowed with sardonic sensors.

Like I said up-thread you are the poster child for what the OP is talking about. Whatever. So, what's up at the Grumble forum? Someone like you who is part of the elite of humanity surely have access to that sacred place. If not then it's a real shame.

1. How to respond without condescension
2. How to differentiate between sarcasm and logic
3. How to be supportive of people whose expectations suddenly go bust
4. How to be civil and courteous to avoid alert stalking and hides
5. How to laugh off attacks and barrages
6. What to do when one is ganged up on by several supporters of the opposing candidate
7. How not to hit the forehead too hard when posts like "Bernie is winning all 50 states" come up
8. How to properly exercise anger management
9. How to not get bewildered by the logic-challenged

There are also support groups for people who are on a time-out because too many of their posts were unfairly hidden.

The course most attended is the one where people are focused to promote Hillary Clinton by actions that will actually get her votes like knocking on doors, making telephone calls, handling media unfairness in a mainstream manner instead of swarming their websites.

I also got helpful information about how to get endorsements from elected officials -- what it is that makes them support Hillary and how to address their concerns etc.

Read at your own risk. No condescension was intended in the above post, "poster child" designation notwithstanding. Any condescension claimed is purely coincidental and subjective. Whatever contained herein is the poster's personal opinion and does not represent the views of any other website or of its members. Void where prohibited. All rights reserved. This may not be reproduced in whole or in part on reddit, facebook or twitter without the express written permission of Flying Spaghetti Monster.

I bet that all the jokes that you send to Reader's Digest are published. Have a nice day!

Good one.

...claim that "the system" is rigged against you. Always works.

Sorry that that wasn't clear.

It wasn't difficult to understand what YDCA meant.

"Nobody is buying his ideas" yet a million+ unique donors before the1st debate and $1.3 million in new contributions before the end of the debate says different. He has as many likes on Facebook as HRC and none of his are bought. The fact that he only brought in less than 2 million dollars last quarter, with a third of the effort, than HRC and 99% of his contributers are still free to donate 98% more before they reach the legal limit in a primary. HRC cannot say the same.
Bernie has done all this by word of mouth and the Internet, no SuperPACs or flashy ad campaigns. Over 17,000 people came to see him here in Seattle, all Internet-based and word of mouth...same for every event. He has also done it without badmouthing any fellow Democratic candidates.
This primary season is a battle for the soul of the Democratic Party. Are we going to be a corporatist, "moderate centerist" (HRC's words, not mine), Party or are we going to be the Democratic Party we always claim to be. We are either Democrats or left-leaning republicans. We can't be both.

did you gather this information from, or is it just a "gut feeling"?

I'm sure that this number traveled a long way through that poster's guts before being pulled out and posted.

Only if the media allows it.

=======================

That's why tens of thousands of people show up to hear him speak -- far, far more Americans than Hillary can attract, even with all her money and all her bought connections. So people ARE "buying" his message -- except that Bernie isn't "selling" anything; he's communicating truths that your beloved corporations pay big bucks to keep hidden.

You place too much value, too much faith, in raw power and money. As most Democrats know, red states have been sold a bill of goods that has them voting against their own interests.

That's the cheap and cheesy power of selling. Which, apparently, you worship.

Thanks for showing your hand, cosmicone. "Cosmic" you are not.

and his poll numbers worsened. Bernie has peaked and is stuck in the low 20s. He ain't going higher no matter how much his supporters wish it to happen.

The corporate media went gaga for their fake lady, but the people of this country are waking up, and when they do, there will be changes.

Time to rethink your materialistic, corporatist, bought and sold assumptions. There's more to life than junk.

That's actually good news, cosmicone, but I don't think you're ready for it yet.

making profits for their shareholders. It's the law. Some times making customers happy makes the profits, sometimes buying and selling their own stock after the manipulate the market makes them profits. Some corporations have figured out how to manipulate the government to help them make profits like Halliburton. Some corporations lie and trick their customers to make a profit. Bain Capital makes a profit from destroying other companies.

The status quo has seen the middle class and lower classes wither in the last 30 years because the corporations have bought Congress and the Presidency. Corporations are making record profits and the poverty level increases. This is the status quo you will get with electing HRC.

should be required viewing for ALL of our younglings. Bernays' work for the corporate megs of his era -- promoting consumerism by melding products and self esteem -- should be well known.

I have a niece whose hackles spiked when I observed we were being "good little consumers" when I took her to the nearest mall (which is 45 minutes from my humble home). She did not want me to disrespect her love of shopping.

I think there are many more younglings like her -- noses buried in electronics, wearing Abercrombie & Fitch or Aeropostale, totally disenchanted with the political process.

(I sure hope I'm wrong about that...)