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pinebox

(5,761 posts)
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 11:27 AM Oct 2015

A genuine concern about the general with Hillary

Last edited Wed Oct 21, 2015, 01:10 PM - Edit history (1)

I have a genuine concern and no, I'm not trying to be a "concern troll" either so y'all know.
My concern I feel is legitimate and it's about the general election.

I feel Hillary is unelectable in a general & I will explain why and honestly, I am damned concerned about this. I know many of her supporters will just blow this post off but I'm honestly ask you all to just hear me out and read, please.

I don't believe that Hillary is capable to reach across the aisle to gain Republican, undecided and independent voters. Democrats simply can't win an election just by getting and motivating the base to vote. (As many of you know, I'm an indy myself) Yes, there's a chance she will be the nominee but that is only half the battle. The general is a whole other ballgame entirely and if Trumo is the nominee, which right now it's looking like a very real possibility, liberals are in really huge trouble.

You essentially have one of the most polarizing politics, Hillary, versus a very high profile outsider, Trump. Yes, he's a jackass, we all know this but people are completely sick and fed up with politicians and Washington in general. Trump has never served in any political office and that is a gigantic draw for so many. It's the reason why Trump & Carson are in the front lead on the other ticket.

I truly fear that when you combine the above along with the rights absolute disdain and hate for Hillary, you have the perfect storm for liberals to lose this election and possibly by quite a large margin. Hillary, while she energizes the base, doesn't energize anything else other than that. We need to be realistic about this. She has her fans, sure but we simply can't ignore the fact that if she is the nominee, she would make the GOP base show up in droves just to vote against her. Absolutely massive amounts.

We're treading in very dangerous territory here. When you honestly stop and you think about it all, it hits you pretty hard.
Tomorrow you'll see what I'm talking about when the Benghazi hearings begin. Ya, we know it's bullshit but they don't and they believe it like it's written in stone. Watch the news in the coming days and what the headlines are. I promise you, there's no love from the right for anything Hillary related yet many of us seem to blind to this fact and think Hillary will reach across the aisle to work with Republicans. This is fantasyland and already we have a member of the Republican party saying if she's elected, he will draw up impeachment papers on her very first day.

I keep saying this but if Hillary is elected and if Republicans still control congress and they probably will be, we're royally screwed as a country. Her entire tenure will be one big ass Benghazi hearing and that my friends scares the living hell out of me.

A lot.

149 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
A genuine concern about the general with Hillary (Original Post) pinebox Oct 2015 OP
Benghazi! Benghazi! Benghazi! leftofcool Oct 2015 #1
You aren't getting it pinebox Oct 2015 #3
I think sometimes opinions don't allow us to see clearly. Hortensis Oct 2015 #28
Dude... do you realize who won the last two elections? JTFrog Oct 2015 #32
I'm not interested in giving the GOP veto power over who we nominate. Nt 72DejaVu Oct 2015 #2
+ 10000000 n/t JustAnotherGen Oct 2015 #27
Now now, the only important thing is the color jersey the player is wearing. jeff47 Oct 2015 #4
Bernie folks have been wrong for months upaloopa Oct 2015 #10
Burying your head further into the sand does not address those problems. (nt) jeff47 Oct 2015 #11
Great observation workinclasszero Oct 2015 #109
Your entitled to you opinion, I just happen to disagree. Agschmid Oct 2015 #5
It's not really an opinion though pinebox Oct 2015 #13
It is an opinion... Agschmid Oct 2015 #16
From Bill Maher pinebox Oct 2015 #18
Except I'm not going to... Agschmid Oct 2015 #20
get an unlimited plan pinebox Oct 2015 #22
Oh boy! zappaman Oct 2015 #25
You can laugh pinebox Oct 2015 #40
Pinebox, could the right BY ANY CHANCE hope to trade such a strong Hortensis Oct 2015 #126
Sometimes even a broken clock is not correct two times a day... Agschmid Oct 2015 #49
Ann fucking Coulter? I wouldn't believe that liar if her tongue came notarized emulatorloo Oct 2015 #41
Jesus H Christ pinebox Oct 2015 #43
No. Don't watch the video. JTFrog Oct 2015 #47
Yup. Agschmid Oct 2015 #51
Message auto-removed Name removed Oct 2015 #97
What does that even mean? JTFrog Oct 2015 #98
As I recommended to Pinebox, it's usually worthwhile to consider Hortensis Oct 2015 #127
Yup. Agschmid Oct 2015 #143
So now DU has gotten to the point where members DEMAND we watch Ann Fucking Coulter??? zappaman Oct 2015 #149
you want to get in bed with a known liar and manipulator have at it. emulatorloo Oct 2015 #52
Ok then pinebox Oct 2015 #108
Agree that Republicans attracted to Bernie are a genuine phenomenon. Hortensis Oct 2015 #131
Good try - in this rare instance she is correct but good luck with reasoning around here. Juicy_Bellows Oct 2015 #101
No kidding pinebox Oct 2015 #107
Nothing disingenuous there at all. Codeine Oct 2015 #42
Agreed but pinebox Oct 2015 #46
You can't prove an opinion. Codeine Oct 2015 #55
Wrong pinebox Oct 2015 #57
Again... Agschmid Oct 2015 #58
Well, she's going to win the nomination Codeine Oct 2015 #60
Nope. She will not unite the dem base musiclawyer Oct 2015 #123
Coulter and the Republicans... quickesst Oct 2015 #80
Really? pinebox Oct 2015 #111
I simply do not believe... quickesst Oct 2015 #121
No. Don't listen to what she says. JTFrog Oct 2015 #34
And who the hell is Bill Maher? pinebox Oct 2015 #35
He is a misogynistic idiot. JTFrog Oct 2015 #39
Maher is a libertarian? What? pinebox Oct 2015 #45
Yes, maybe you should educate yourself. n/t JTFrog Oct 2015 #53
Maybe you should learn to read pinebox Oct 2015 #62
You can call horseshit all you want.... JTFrog Oct 2015 #64
I should stop pinebox Oct 2015 #66
He self identified as a fucking libertarian. JTFrog Oct 2015 #67
Cry me a river pinebox Oct 2015 #70
I will take you to task everytime you bring some scumbag in to bash Hillary. JTFrog Oct 2015 #71
On some level, yes. Agschmid Oct 2015 #54
How long have you been interested in politics? Codeine Oct 2015 #56
Stupid is this pinebox Oct 2015 #59
And also a libertarian. Agschmid Oct 2015 #61
try this pinebox Oct 2015 #65
And also a libertarian. Agschmid Oct 2015 #99
You posted an opinion from Ann Coulter mcar Oct 2015 #125
Nailed it. Agschmid Oct 2015 #144
Bernie can't even get more than 25% of Democrats. JaneyVee Oct 2015 #6
Check it pinebox Oct 2015 #14
I agree but there seems to be a brainwashed idea in America olddots Oct 2015 #7
Which Democratic candidate exactly do you think frazzled Oct 2015 #8
Here's your answer pinebox Oct 2015 #15
And here's my response frazzled Oct 2015 #105
Why though pinebox Oct 2015 #106
In Vermont??!! frazzled Oct 2015 #115
In VT pinebox Oct 2015 #117
Head slap /nt frazzled Oct 2015 #118
I proved my point pinebox Oct 2015 #119
99% of the anti Hillary stuff on this board upaloopa Oct 2015 #9
Prove me wrong pinebox Oct 2015 #17
Her approval rating was 65% when she ended her time as Secretary of State muriel_volestrangler Oct 2015 #72
Her approval rating now however pinebox Oct 2015 #73
Perhaps you should reread the OP you're trying to explain muriel_volestrangler Oct 2015 #76
Not really pinebox Oct 2015 #82
That's electable. Her figures there are better, overall, than Sanders muriel_volestrangler Oct 2015 #85
If you don't care pinebox Oct 2015 #86
I care because you're digging your hole deeper and deeper muriel_volestrangler Oct 2015 #88
Message auto-removed Name removed Oct 2015 #100
Don't assume this is a Bernie supporter, however muriel_volestrangler Oct 2015 #102
Also nailed it. Agschmid Oct 2015 #145
They just want a fight it's clear. Agschmid Oct 2015 #21
You're 100% incorrect pinebox Oct 2015 #23
I did. Agschmid Oct 2015 #24
And pinebox Oct 2015 #37
I don't know, can't watch it, and certainly not going use my data for it. Agschmid Oct 2015 #38
We can not control the Republicans, so fuck 'um. Agnosticsherbet Oct 2015 #12
"I have a genuine concern and no, I'm not trying to be a "concern troll" either so y'all know." MineralMan Oct 2015 #19
That's cute pinebox Oct 2015 #29
Here's something for you to be concerned about: MineralMan Oct 2015 #31
Watching it now pinebox Oct 2015 #33
Keep watching. MineralMan Oct 2015 #44
For sure pinebox Oct 2015 #48
We don't vote nationally. Fawke Em Oct 2015 #63
I agree. You seem very "concerned". zappaman Oct 2015 #26
Your concern is noted. JTFrog Oct 2015 #30
i said the same thing yesterday in an op restorefreedom Oct 2015 #36
Exactly pinebox Oct 2015 #68
Yes our country is at stake. And if you don't have genuine concerns about winning no matter who our onenote Oct 2015 #79
those who choose to put their head in the sand restorefreedom Oct 2015 #89
and who are the millenials that stay home or vote third party thinking of? onenote Oct 2015 #78
the party has been propping up restorefreedom Oct 2015 #91
And if ardent Clinton supporters stay home because they don't want to make common cause onenote Oct 2015 #93
people have a right to their vote restorefreedom Oct 2015 #94
I just question the conscience of anyone who won't do what they can to prevent same sex marriage onenote Oct 2015 #95
no hypocrisy at all....that is an important issue for sure restorefreedom Oct 2015 #122
so you'll trade the certainty of a Supreme Court that preserves and extends the rw views onenote Oct 2015 #124
i am not trading anything restorefreedom Oct 2015 #130
Even if she loses, if you don't do everything to prevent the repubs from winning onenote Oct 2015 #132
i respect your position. i just happen to disagree. nt restorefreedom Oct 2015 #138
That's nice. But I have no respect for your position. onenote Oct 2015 #139
that is certainly your option restorefreedom Oct 2015 #142
+1 Voice of reason, thank you. Agschmid Oct 2015 #146
Hillary can't beat Donald Trump? Really? (nt) Nye Bevan Oct 2015 #50
Polls now are dead tied pinebox Oct 2015 #69
Nothing like a little FUD to start your morning. n/t JTFrog Oct 2015 #74
"Democrats simply can't win an election just by getting and motivating the base to vote." Martin Eden Oct 2015 #75
I've got news for you WOMEN will turnout in droves to vote for Hill. oasis Oct 2015 #77
Simple pinebox Oct 2015 #83
I don't think you're "concern trolling" but I think you are incorrect. DanTex Oct 2015 #81
She's unelectable in the general. askew Oct 2015 #84
they either don't care or are blind to it. restorefreedom Oct 2015 #92
Republicans are saving up their ammo. Aerows Oct 2015 #87
The Media Will Become Unwatchable The River Oct 2015 #96
You can count on it. Juicy_Bellows Oct 2015 #103
I think Hillary supporters Aerows Oct 2015 #104
Spot on - thank you for responding so eloquently. Juicy_Bellows Oct 2015 #140
She really IS unelectable. musiclawyer Oct 2015 #129
Weirdly enough, Aerows Oct 2015 #133
Bernie is an old white guy who shoots straight musiclawyer Oct 2015 #137
I can't respond to all of that Aerows Oct 2015 #141
. MohRokTah Oct 2015 #90
And here :) pinebox Oct 2015 #110
. MohRokTah Oct 2015 #112
It's hilarious isn't it? pinebox Oct 2015 #113
What's hilarious is that anybody actually buys that. MohRokTah Oct 2015 #114
You mean facts? pinebox Oct 2015 #116
The word is "SPIN" as there are no real facts. eom MohRokTah Oct 2015 #120
No facts? What? pinebox Oct 2015 #135
But but, but.... Nedsdag Oct 2015 #128
I would never tell you to support her in the primaries. onenote Oct 2015 #134
Whatever! Nedsdag Oct 2015 #147
my thoughts exactly.... smiley Oct 2015 #136
Also, don't forget about the 'Ahlrnod' effect sorechasm Oct 2015 #148

leftofcool

(19,460 posts)
1. Benghazi! Benghazi! Benghazi!
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 11:31 AM
Oct 2015

That word has been mentioned more times on DU that it has on Faux Snooze!

 

pinebox

(5,761 posts)
3. You aren't getting it
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 11:36 AM
Oct 2015

Read again what I said please. Closely.

That "B" word is one reason why she isn't electable in a general. The right will see to it that she doesn't win. Do you honestly think republicans will stay home if Hillary is the nominee?

Think. About. It.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
28. I think sometimes opinions don't allow us to see clearly.
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 12:19 PM
Oct 2015

A guest's dislike of porcine mushrooms the other day at a party was so strong that it overrode her manners and sense of what is appropriate. I'm afraid it lead her to share her distaste with a lot of people she mistakenly assumed were just pretending to like the dish, which was hardly the case.

In any case, I posted a list of HRC's endorsements here that ran down for screen after screen after screen, and just kept going and going. Mostly professional political figures who felt that she was not only electable, but the most electable person sharing their values.

It's on Wickipedia. Even if you don't like her, you might take a peek at it and think about it.

 

JTFrog

(14,274 posts)
32. Dude... do you realize who won the last two elections?
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 12:22 PM
Oct 2015

A black man. If ever they were gonna vote in full force, that would have been it. And yet Obama won by landslide margins.

Just sayin....

Now continue on with your concern.



jeff47

(26,549 posts)
4. Now now, the only important thing is the color jersey the player is wearing.
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 11:38 AM
Oct 2015


I really fear a low turnout election if Clinton wins the nomination. I know she will be unable to carry my swing state. And I have concerns about many others.

The people saying she'll totally crush everyone by citing national polls demonstrate they don't understand the problem. You don't need a candidate that can get 80% of NY and CA. You need a candidate that can get 51% of CO, IA, NC, VA, NM, and so on. What little polling that is coming out of those states is troubling.

Add in all the little "fuck yous" like limited debates and other slights that are coming from the establishment, and we're in very real danger in the general election.

And we're also in danger of turning Millennials into another GenX - low turnout because no party gives a damn about what they want. That is going to hurt us far, far beyond 2016.

It really looks like lots of people are only interested in "rooting for their team", and have spent very little effort thinking about the larger picture.
 

pinebox

(5,761 posts)
13. It's not really an opinion though
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 12:04 PM
Oct 2015

and that's the thing. Hillary WILL make the Republican base turn out in droves. They are united in their hate for her. That is a fact. Prove me otherwise.





Agschmid

(28,749 posts)
16. It is an opinion...
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 12:07 PM
Oct 2015

It's all opinion until the election.

And I'm watching a video of Ann Coulter why? I'm on my phone so I'm not going to use my data for that, if you had a point there just let me know.

Agschmid

(28,749 posts)
20. Except I'm not going to...
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 12:10 PM
Oct 2015

Again, on my phone. I'm a mellenial we do that, we also don't want to use our limited data on videos of Ann Coulter.

What's the point she makes, cut to the chase.

 

pinebox

(5,761 posts)
22. get an unlimited plan
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 12:12 PM
Oct 2015

like i have

She basically says Hillary would make the GOP base show up in droves and that Sanders is much harder to beat than Hillary.

 

pinebox

(5,761 posts)
40. You can laugh
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 12:31 PM
Oct 2015

but on this point, she's correct that the GOP base will show up in droves. You laugh. I worry because laughing shows you simply don't understand what the right is doing to Hillary.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.


Prove me wrong. Go for it. Prove me wrong right now, how a Hillary nomination in a general won't make the GOP base show up in droves. Go for it. Do it.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
126. Pinebox, could the right BY ANY CHANCE hope to trade such a strong
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 06:09 PM
Oct 2015

opponent as HRC for one they think would be easier to beat? You'll be hearing a lot more of this. Think it all over, but don't forget to consider the source and ask yourself, "Okay, I've heard variations of this from a number of people now. What's in it for them?"

I was watching for Joe Scarborough, a heavyweight water carrier for the GOP, to start playing up Bernie. I figured that would be a positive sign that the right thought he had become something they could use against HRC, and -- big surprise -- he's now "very impressed" with Bernie.

Your job, of course, is to make them just as sorry for a lethal mistake in strategy as they ended up in 2008. If you succeed, I'll be with you in the general.

emulatorloo

(43,979 posts)
41. Ann fucking Coulter? I wouldn't believe that liar if her tongue came notarized
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 12:32 PM
Oct 2015

She is as duplicitous as the come. Getting in bed with her is not the way to win Bernie Sanders the nomination.

 

pinebox

(5,761 posts)
43. Jesus H Christ
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 12:34 PM
Oct 2015

Go watch the fucking video. She's correct. What does she say? The Republican base will show up in droves in droves to vote against Hillary. She's right. Prove that point wrong. Go ahead. Go for it. She also says Bernie is harder to beat. She's right.

 

JTFrog

(14,274 posts)
47. No. Don't watch the video.
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 12:36 PM
Oct 2015

Don't come in here and demand that people listen to Ann fucking Coulter.

She said the same fucking thing about Obama and the Republican base. She was wrong then (and fucking stupid) and she's wrong now (and still fucking stupid).

Response to JTFrog (Reply #47)

 

JTFrog

(14,274 posts)
98. What does that even mean?
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 03:36 PM
Oct 2015

I will vote because it is my right to vote. I don't care if you reveal who you are voting for or not.

"Vote at your own peril". Is that supposed to be some sort of stupid threat?



Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
127. As I recommended to Pinebox, it's usually worthwhile to consider
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 06:12 PM
Oct 2015

the source and consider what might be in it for them.

emulatorloo

(43,979 posts)
52. you want to get in bed with a known liar and manipulator have at it.
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 12:39 PM
Oct 2015

The woman has a long history.

There is no way to know if that woman means what she says, she will say fucking anything.



 

pinebox

(5,761 posts)
108. Ok then
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 04:28 PM
Oct 2015

How's this http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/09/19/1422802/-FWIW-Bernie-Sanders-Leads-Clinton-65-14-Also-Ties-Trump-and-Carson-in-GOP-Poll

How about this?
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/why-surprising-numbers-republicans-have-been-voting-bernie-sanders-vermont
Why Surprising Numbers of Republicans Have Been Voting for Bernie Sanders in Vermont
If Sanders ends up being the Democratic nominee for president, his GOP opponent is going to have a hard time beating him.


Funny how Thom Hartman backs me up isn't it?

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
131. Agree that Republicans attracted to Bernie are a genuine phenomenon.
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 06:19 PM
Oct 2015

Any why not? Many, many have realized the leaders they put their trust in have been betraying them for decades now.

As for fealty to the GOP, we know that there are people who may be socially conservative but are also ideology-free or liberal economically. Bernie's a natural for them.

There are also other conservative types whose ideology does not require them to stay loyal to any one party. In any case, I think their support of Bernie is great. Both because I think it's smart of them, but also because it means that the passionate base the GOP relies on so heavily is unraveling. !

Juicy_Bellows

(2,427 posts)
101. Good try - in this rare instance she is correct but good luck with reasoning around here.
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 03:40 PM
Oct 2015

Hell, they won't even watch the clip.

 

Codeine

(25,586 posts)
42. Nothing disingenuous there at all.
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 12:33 PM
Oct 2015

Coulter is a piece of shit. Listening to her makes people stupid.

 

Codeine

(25,586 posts)
55. You can't prove an opinion.
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 12:40 PM
Oct 2015

If a black dude could get elected then Hillary can get elected. You think a scary black man on the ticket didn't unite the tighty whitey righties?

 

pinebox

(5,761 posts)
57. Wrong
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 12:47 PM
Oct 2015

A black dude doesn't equal Hillary.

Obama was literally brand new and had very little baggage when he ran originally.
Hillary has decades worth, literally.

You really think Hillary can unite the right? Tell me tomorrow after the Benghazi hearings how you feel and if the RW media says "Hillary was great". Sorry, it's not happening and it never will, ever. Hillary's favorability and likability ratings are far under water, don't forget that. She can unite the dem base but outside of that, no.

Agschmid

(28,749 posts)
58. Again...
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 12:48 PM
Oct 2015

This is called an opinion, you are entitled to that. As are others.

We won't know until we get there.

musiclawyer

(2,335 posts)
123. Nope. She will not unite the dem base
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 05:58 PM
Oct 2015

Just the opposite. The millenials just won't vote. A lot of bernistas won't vote. And A sizeable number of Republicans WILL vote for Bernie. I work with dozens of them --talk to them everyday. They think Bernie is honest. The socialist thing is meaningless to them. They are human beings and grave integrity. They despise HRC like coakroaches in a fridge.

HRC = president Trump or whoever the GOP push on to the public.

quickesst

(6,280 posts)
80. Coulter and the Republicans...
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 01:55 PM
Oct 2015

.... are drooling over the possibility of Sanders as the nominee. I don't understand how that is not obvious. Lifting Bernie up with one hand while bashing Clinton with the other. Geez. Disheartening to see people on the left so susceptible to reverse psychology.

 

pinebox

(5,761 posts)
111. Really?
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 04:38 PM
Oct 2015

Thom Hartman thinks you're wrong

Why Surprising Numbers of Republicans Have Been Voting for Bernie Sanders in Vermont
If Sanders ends up being the Democratic nominee for president, his GOP opponent is going to have a hard time beating him.

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/why-surprising-numbers-republicans-have-been-voting-bernie-sanders-vermont

Show me anywhere in any poll where Hillary is leading or tied with Republican front runners among Republican voters because I can show you this. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/09/19/1422802/-FWIW-Bernie-Sanders-Leads-Clinton-65-14-Also-Ties-Trump-and-Carson-in-GOP-Poll
What ya got?

quickesst

(6,280 posts)
121. I simply do not believe...
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 05:42 PM
Oct 2015

...that Bernie and/or his supporters embracing the republican party will make any difference in the outcome of the primaries. It's an opinion, and it's mine.

 

pinebox

(5,761 posts)
35. And who the hell is Bill Maher?
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 12:27 PM
Oct 2015

This is DU and the show is extreme liberal left show. Amirght? Why yes I am! Holy shit! Imagine that! lol

 

JTFrog

(14,274 posts)
39. He is a misogynistic idiot.
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 12:30 PM
Oct 2015

I don't listen to a word that dude says. He is an Ayn Rand libertarian.



 

JTFrog

(14,274 posts)
64. You can call horseshit all you want....
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 12:53 PM
Oct 2015

but obviously you can't recognize horseshit because you are promoting Ann Coulter on DU.

FFS dude, you should really stop. It has been eye opening for sure, but you should really stop.

 

pinebox

(5,761 posts)
66. I should stop
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 12:57 PM
Oct 2015

from posting facts?

he endorsed Kerry over Bush and President Obama (even donating $1 million to Obama’s 2012 campaign), and opposed the Iraq War.

http://hollowverse.com/bill-maher/

Libertarians don't give a million bucks to a dem candidate or support the last 3 dem candidates. Sorry.
 

JTFrog

(14,274 posts)
67. He self identified as a fucking libertarian.
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 12:59 PM
Oct 2015

I don't give a fuck what links you bring in here dude.

You are wrong to be pushing this shit here. Ann Coulter is wrong and stupid. Bill Maher is a Libertarian.

There are your facts.

Now go ahead and just keep posting ridiculous shit here.

 

pinebox

(5,761 posts)
70. Cry me a river
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 01:05 PM
Oct 2015

Quit whining already. Seriously. I'm going to send ya case of Kleenex before long.
If you have nothing to say about my original comments above and want to hyperfocus on something which isn't related to the issue at hand, go have that conversation with yourself.

Ignore is a beautiful thing.

 

Codeine

(25,586 posts)
56. How long have you been interested in politics?
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 12:41 PM
Oct 2015

Because this is starting to sound a bit fucking stupid, to be honest.

 

pinebox

(5,761 posts)
65. try this
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 12:54 PM
Oct 2015
he endorsed Kerry over Bush and President Obama (even donating $1 million to Obama’s 2012 campaign), and opposed the Iraq War.

http://hollowverse.com/bill-maher/

mcar

(42,210 posts)
125. You posted an opinion from Ann Coulter
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 06:08 PM
Oct 2015

To prove that your opinion is fact?

I think we have reached peak cognitive dissonance.

 

olddots

(10,237 posts)
7. I agree but there seems to be a brainwashed idea in America
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 11:44 AM
Oct 2015

that you fight evil with evil like we have been told that good can't win depending on what the kleptocracy has decided to feed us like we are robotic market segments .

frazzled

(18,402 posts)
8. Which Democratic candidate exactly do you think
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 11:44 AM
Oct 2015

could "reach across the aisle" any better? Especially one who could garner more than 50% of the votes and/or a majority of the electoral votes? I'm very curious.

frazzled

(18,402 posts)
105. And here's my response
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 04:07 PM
Oct 2015

Dream on.

(I thought that thread was too crazy even to respond to.)

Look, I don't disagree that Clinton could have a tough time winning a general. I just think Sanders would have 10 times more of a tough time winning. Really. I've walked the streets in several states for candidates in prior elections, knocking on doors and talking with all kinds of Americans. This "revolution" ain't happening.

frazzled

(18,402 posts)
115. In Vermont??!!
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 05:07 PM
Oct 2015

You've got to be kidding. Look, Hillary Clinton had stratospheric approval ratings in New York State when she was senator there for 2 terms (including the support of 50% of Republicans):

Clinton enjoyed high approval ratings for her job as Senator within New York, reaching an all-time high of 72 to 74 percent approving (including half of Republicans) over 23 to 24 percent disapproving in December 2006, before her presidential campaign became active;[92][93] by August 2007, after a half year of campaigning, it was still 64 percent over 34 percent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_career_of_Hillary_Rodham_Clinton


Do you think that means she could win over 50% of Republicans in a general election for the presidency? Not in a million years. Probably next to none. And my sincere belief is that Sanders would fare even worse.

State polls about incumbent (or former) senators are not an indication of anything having to do with a general election. Except to say that if Hillary is the nominee she will carry New York in a general election. And if Bernie is the nominee he will carry Vermont. There are 49 other states. (Besides, if we're talking about winning one's home state, Vermont has 3 electoral votes, New York has 29.)
 

pinebox

(5,761 posts)
117. In VT
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 05:11 PM
Oct 2015

Why kidding?

People by and far don't know Bernie Sanders. Right?? Right. Hillary has a 99% name recognition. See what happens when people do know Bernie? VT is an illustrative example.

Check this out. It was just posted here on DU.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=710418
Check the poll numbers between Bernie and Hillary when facing GOP candidates. Do you see that?

upaloopa

(11,417 posts)
9. 99% of the anti Hillary stuff on this board
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 11:55 AM
Oct 2015

is about a Hillary that doesn't exist.
It doesn't match her record
It doesn't match the opinion of the majority
It doesn't match reality

 

pinebox

(5,761 posts)
17. Prove me wrong
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 12:07 PM
Oct 2015

Go ahead, prove me wrong. Go for it.
Do you honestly think Republicans will stay at home if she's the nominee? Do you NOT see what is happening with her in terms on a national scale with the right? Nobody and I mean NOBODY is ostracized as much as Hillary is from the right and that includes Obama. It's literally decades deep in hate.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,152 posts)
72. Her approval rating was 65% when she ended her time as Secretary of State
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 01:12 PM
Oct 2015
http://www.people-press.org/2015/05/19/hillary-clinton-approval-timeline/

It is possible for independents, and even some Republicans, to approve of her, and that makes it possible for her to win a general election. That's not surprising, since she remains the overwhelming favorite at bookmakers to win, and they don't set odds like that for an impossibility.

http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/us-politics/us-presidential-election-2016/winner

So, yes, you are wrong that she's unelectable. No-one should deny that she is eminently electable; though that doesn't mean she is the inevitable winner.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,152 posts)
76. Perhaps you should reread the OP you're trying to explain
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 01:30 PM
Oct 2015

You said she is 'unelectable'. You're wrong, because she is able to get strong support, and thus get elected. She is 'electable'.

As far as likelihoods go, Hillary's net 8% disapproval is better than Trump's 16%, or Bush's 16%. Carson has a net 12% approval, but he is a religious nutcase, who has just decided to market a book for 2 weeks - either because his handlers think they need to stop him saying stupid things, or because he's not that keen on becoming president. Rubio is only net 2% disapproved of, but he's only 34% favorable - he's still not known by everyone, and is not setting the Republicans, let alone Americans, on fire yet. She still stands a very good chance against any possible Republican candidate.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,152 posts)
85. That's electable. Her figures there are better, overall, than Sanders
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 02:33 PM
Oct 2015

and quite electable. eg Florida (the biggest):

Clinton gets 43 percent to 44 percent for Bush and gets 45 percent to Carson's 43 percent. She gets 44 percent to 42 percent for Fiorina and 44 percent to Rubio's 45 percent. Clinton tops Trump 46 - 41 percent.
Sanders slips behind Bush 45 - 41 percent and loses to Carson 46 - 40 percent. He gets 41 percent to 42 percent for Fiorina. He trails Rubio 46 - 41 percent and beats Trump 46 - 41 percent.

To be frank, your 'concern' is shining through in this thread, despite your attempt to deny it in the OP. Who you're really concerned for, I don't know, and don't really care.

 

pinebox

(5,761 posts)
86. If you don't care
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 02:38 PM
Oct 2015

then why are you bothering wasting minutes responding to me?

Hillary doesn't have the ability to garner indy and republican votes. That is needed a huge problem in a general. I don't know what else to you. She'll alienate Bernie supporters as well, many of them, if she's the nominee and her support among millennials is incredibly low.
http://www.politico.com/story/2015/10/poll-millennials-bernie-sanders-hillary-clinton-214874

Millennials are feeling the Bern, according to the latest results from a national NBC News/SurveyMonkey poll of Democrats out Friday.

Hillary Clinton still leads Bernie Sanders 45 percent to 31 percent, essentially unchanged from last month's survey. But among those born between roughly 1985 and 1997, 54 percent back the democratic socialist senator from Vermont. Just 26 percent supported Clinton, down from 34 percent in September and 36 percent in August.


My concern right now is if she's the nominee, Dems have a huge problem and it's justified. Do you think her favorability ratings will go up after tomorrow? I don't.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,152 posts)
88. I care because you're digging your hole deeper and deeper
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 02:45 PM
Oct 2015

and that's a good thing for DU. You've blown your credibility with this thread, and people will link to it in the future and agree 'concern troll'. So we've played along with you, until you've made it crystal-clear you are here to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt about Democrats. You've failed.

Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #88)

muriel_volestrangler

(101,152 posts)
102. Don't assume this is a Bernie supporter, however
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 03:40 PM
Oct 2015

See the posting and defending of Ann Coulter's opinion elsewhere in this thread.

 

pinebox

(5,761 posts)
23. You're 100% incorrect
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 12:13 PM
Oct 2015

I want you to THINK. I'm not picking a fight. I'm asking you to use you're noggin.

Agschmid

(28,749 posts)
38. I don't know, can't watch it, and certainly not going use my data for it.
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 12:30 PM
Oct 2015

I'll watch it eventually when I'm on wifi.

But seriously it's all opinion until Election Day, then it's not.

Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
12. We can not control the Republicans, so fuck 'um.
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 12:03 PM
Oct 2015

No matter who we nominate, Republicans are going to retain the House, so fuck 'um.

Obama tried for five years to reach across the aisle, and proved that they will not even pass programs they like with a Democrats name on it, so fuck 'um

Yes, Benghazi! So fuck 'um.

Impeachment? Fuck 'um.

Republicans will do what they gotta do. If we let their antics control who we nominate, they win,so fuck 'um.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
19. "I have a genuine concern and no, I'm not trying to be a "concern troll" either so y'all know."
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 12:10 PM
Oct 2015

OK, then...

I'll keep that in mind as I read your post...reading...

Well, candidate Clinton is leading in every poll, nationally, by a pretty large margin. She's also beating the Republican candidates in national polling about the General Election.

So, I'm not really seeing the reason for your "genuine concern," frankly. It seems misplaced, really. I think y'all can safely drop your concern about that.

 

pinebox

(5,761 posts)
29. That's cute
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 12:19 PM
Oct 2015

making fun that I typed "y'all.

That margin you speak of is incredibly narrow http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_clinton-5491.html and within the room for error.


Clinton 45.7
Trump 43.2

Am I concerned? Yes and you should be too.

 

pinebox

(5,761 posts)
33. Watching it now
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 12:23 PM
Oct 2015

However I'm not entirely sure this will help Hillary and instead help Bernie.
Remember, he's been lobbing bombs the last week at her.
There's no love lost between the Obama administration and the Clinton's.

Fawke Em

(11,366 posts)
63. We don't vote nationally.
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 12:52 PM
Oct 2015

OP is correct in citing concerns about certain swing states.

And Hillary isn't Obama. She has a lot more baggage and far less charisma.

restorefreedom

(12,655 posts)
36. i said the same thing yesterday in an op
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 12:28 PM
Oct 2015

they have already promised impeachment on day one. republicans will crawl over broken glass to vote against her. millenials will stay home or vote third party. congress will be a bloodbath.

she is thinking of her own political future and not the future of this country, but that does not surprise me. It's what she's always done.

 

pinebox

(5,761 posts)
68. Exactly
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 01:02 PM
Oct 2015

My post brings up some genuine concerns yet people just want to hyperfocus on something which is completely irrelevant to the situation at hand. It's sad that so many aren't willing to see what it is I am saying. FFS our country is at stake!

onenote

(42,374 posts)
79. Yes our country is at stake. And if you don't have genuine concerns about winning no matter who our
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 01:43 PM
Oct 2015

nominee is, you're whistling past the graveyard.

I'm a Bernie supporter but I'm not so blind as to pretend that he can win in a cakewalk. If he gets the nomination, he will be targeted with attacks we can't even begin to imagine. And if we don't stick together, we can't win. But the same thing goes if Bernie doesn't get the nomination. If folks pack it in and don't support her, then they really don't understand what is at stake. Moving from Clinton to the next Bernie is a much shorter path than the one that will be faced if we end up with a repub president whose scotus appointees will preserve and expand CU, who will roll back same sex marriage, will support the further evisceration of voting rights.

restorefreedom

(12,655 posts)
89. those who choose to put their head in the sand
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 02:47 PM
Oct 2015

will feel later like they were in some time warp..they will be so stunned when the shit hits the fan

onenote

(42,374 posts)
78. and who are the millenials that stay home or vote third party thinking of?
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 01:39 PM
Oct 2015

Not those of us that want a Democratic president.

I'm supporting Bernie in the primaries, not because I think he's some sort of savior, but because I want his ideas and policies, with which I agree, to get as full a hearing as possible. If he gets the nomination, I'll be happy and work for him in the general. But if he doesn't get the nomination, I will throw my support wholeheartedly to the individual (probably Clinton unless something dramatic happens between now and the convention). Because the stakes are too high and I won't stand idly by and watch the next generation or two be saddled with a Supreme Court that reverse the marriage equality decision, will preserve and extend Citizens United, will continue to uphold the evisceration of voting rights and so on. And I won't stand idly by while a repub president and repub agencies of government roll back network neutrality and kill regulations that protect the environment.

The simple answer to the OP is that I have "genuine concern" about any Democrat winning the general election. This election isn't going to be a cakewalk not matter what happens. The country is too sharply divided. Will repubs come out in force if Clinton is the nominee? Yes. But they will have every reason to come out in force if Bernie is the nominee too and the Koch and Adelson-fueled negative ad campaigns will do everything they can to ensure that happens and to try to scare off portions of the Democratic and Democratic leaning electorate.

So I say leave the petty bickering -- the assertions by one candidate or another that the other is not qualified or is dangerous -- to the repubs. One of the great things about Bernie is that he recognizes what's at stake and has endeavored not to tear down Clinton but rather has relied on the strength of his ideas.

restorefreedom

(12,655 posts)
91. the party has been propping up
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 02:51 PM
Oct 2015

a pro war, corporate third wayer who is not against citizens United and does not represent any progressive principles. If they force that down our throats by riggin the nom, and that nom loses because people don't want to vote for her, that's on them. You can't force a crappy candidate down the voters throats and then complain when they don't want to vote for her.

it was never a fair fight, and that's the parties fault. If she loses, and she will,they OWN this.

onenote

(42,374 posts)
93. And if ardent Clinton supporters stay home because they don't want to make common cause
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 03:00 PM
Oct 2015

with folks that call them names, who is that on?

I stand with Bernie first. But after I stand with Bernie I stand with the Democratic party. Because there is a difference. And even if we simply stood still for the next four or eight years (and simply by virtue of appointments to the SCOTUS that's not likely to be the case -- we're likely to see further progress), we'd be closer to achieving Bernie's ideas than we will be able to if repubs roll back things like net neutrality and environmental protections and voting rights protections and the repub SCOTUS, made stronger and younger, makes those decisions even harder to overturn going forward.

restorefreedom

(12,655 posts)
94. people have a right to their vote
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 03:02 PM
Oct 2015

if someone cannot in good conscience support a nominee, i am not going to question their decision or tell them who to vote for.

is the party's responsibility to conduct a fair contest. If they fail to do that they own the results.

onenote

(42,374 posts)
95. I just question the conscience of anyone who won't do what they can to prevent same sex marriage
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 03:13 PM
Oct 2015

rights and voting rights from being rolled back.

Anyone who proclaimed themselves happy with the decision in Obergerfell, anyone who expressed disgust with Kim Davis and her ilk, but who then does not do what they can to ensure that decision stands and that the "rights" of the Kim Davis' of the world don't override all other rights, is simply a hypocrite.

restorefreedom

(12,655 posts)
122. no hypocrisy at all....that is an important issue for sure
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 05:54 PM
Oct 2015

but there are others, like war. i refuse to vote for someone who voted for the iraq war and is hellbent on starting more. dead civilians, dead and maimed soldiers, billions if not trillions spent, destabilization around the world.

don't want that on my conscience.

onenote

(42,374 posts)
124. so you'll trade the certainty of a Supreme Court that preserves and extends the rw views
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 06:03 PM
Oct 2015

of the current majority over the certainty of a court that will have a majority of justices that support individual rights, voting rights, restrictions on corporate influence in elections.

You'll trade the certainty that a repub president will get us involved in new military action and international escapades over the possibility (but hardly the same level of certainty) that any Democrat other than Sanders will do the same thing.

You'll take the certainty that the Iran deal will be torn up the first week of a repub president over the preservation of that deal.

Sleep well, my friend. Sleep well.

restorefreedom

(12,655 posts)
130. i am not trading anything
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 06:18 PM
Oct 2015

if the party wants and expects the votes of progressives, then they should present a fair contest and allow a true progressive to rise, rather than rigging the process for their corporate hawk darling.

the party owns this loss, since she will lose the ge, and it owns the fallout.

i will have no problem sleeping. dws would have trouble if she had a conscience. fortunately for her, she does not.

onenote

(42,374 posts)
132. Even if she loses, if you don't do everything to prevent the repubs from winning
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 06:24 PM
Oct 2015

and the consequences that follow, you can't walk away and say you didn't try to stop those things from happening.

Sorry, you just can't hide your head in sand and say it was all someone else's fault.

I'm backing Bernie all the way to the White House if its possible. But if it isn't possible, I'm going to war against the repubs controlling my life and the lives of the next generation or two.

onenote

(42,374 posts)
139. That's nice. But I have no respect for your position.
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 07:42 PM
Oct 2015

It makes no sense. It harms our ability to achieve our goals not just in the short run, but in the long run.

If the repubs capture the WH and solidify their control on the supreme court, voting suppression efforts will continue and increase.
And any hope of a pathway to citizenship for immigrants is pushed back for years.

All of which means the chances of taking advantage of a changing demographic to regain control and achieve real reforms is pushed back, possibly for a generation.

Sorry, no respect for not fighting against that result.

restorefreedom

(12,655 posts)
142. that is certainly your option
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 09:46 PM
Oct 2015

i have shared my rationale, and any further discussion on this matter is likely to be unfruitful. i hope we find some common ground on other issues in the future.

have a nice evening

Martin Eden

(12,802 posts)
75. "Democrats simply can't win an election just by getting and motivating the base to vote."
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 01:28 PM
Oct 2015

Actually, I think "motivating the base to vote" is the KEY to winning the general election.

Hillary Clinton has the negatives you described, but she also has the potential to win some moderates & independents who haven't bought into (mostly) baseless attacks against her. These are voters who see the Republican clown car for what it is and are OK with a centrist Democrat. Some of these same voters will be scared away by Bernie's "Socialist" tag and/or they are on the conservative side for small government.

On the other hand, we have seen Bernie starting to attract some voters who seldom if ever pull the lever for Democrats. They're fed up with status quo establishment politicians and aren't stupid enough to think Trump would make a good POTUS.

I'm not sure if all the above constitutes a wash but there are swing voters who would vote for one and not the other, both ways.

Which brings us to motivating the base to get out and vote (aka GOTV).

Bernie is generating a great deal of enthusiasm among voters (especially the young) who often do not bother going to the polls. I think most Democrats in the Hillary camp will vote for Bernie if he's the nominee, but many who would turn out for Bernie will stay home if HRC is the nominee.

The biggest number from the 2014 midterm election was 63.7 -- the percentage of eligible voters who did NOT bother to cast a vote.

The key to victory is motivating those folks to get out and vote, and for that we need a candidate who generates enthusiasm among the stay-at-home crowd.

oasis

(49,151 posts)
77. I've got news for you WOMEN will turnout in droves to vote for Hill.
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 01:36 PM
Oct 2015

That will cancel out the motivated Hillary haters.

Btw, since you so strongly believe Hillary to be unelectable ,why did you feel the need to add the last two paragraphs of this OP where you lay out various scenarios of what will happen if she's elected?

 

pinebox

(5,761 posts)
83. Simple
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 02:25 PM
Oct 2015

Because it's a talking point who think Hillary will be able to reach across the aisle and garner Republican support. I wish that was the truth but I don't see it happening. Biden? Yes. Sanders? Yes. O'Malley? Yes. Hillary? no.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
81. I don't think you're "concern trolling" but I think you are incorrect.
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 02:00 PM
Oct 2015

I do agree that Hillary is not the ideal candidate. If there were another Obama, that would be better. But there isn't one, and Hillary is the best chance we've got.

First of all, I think that your judgement of Hillary's chances is clouded by your personal dislike of her and her policies. This is true of many Bernie supporters on DU. And the predictions they've made based on that dislike have been all wrong. The debate is the latest example. We were told that Bernie would surge after the debate. He didn't. We were told that Bernie won the debate, and that the online polls were correct. They weren't. People said that Hillary came of as corporate and rehearsed, but obviously the Democratic voters disagreed.

More generally, a lot of Bernie supporters were just positive that the Dem primary voters would toss Hillary out once they got to know Bernie and realized he was so much more genuine and not the candidate of corporations/WallSt/whatever. It doesn't look like that's going to happen, at all. So it's safe to say that people who are strongly against Hillary aren't very good judges of how she strikes others who are not so predisposed to dislike her.

As far as the GOP base goes, they learn to hate Democratic nominees very quickly. They hated Obama. They hated Kerry. Yes, they hate Hillary, but they would hate anyone that the Dems nominate. The GOP is very good at getting their base riled up.

I think Hillary can capture more swing voters and indies than any other Dem. You are not a typical independent voter; you are independent because both parties are too far right for you. Most indies are somewhere in the middle. They aren't particularly well informed, and they like to think that "both sides" have it wrong, and by being somewhere in "the middle", they are wiser than everyone else. I don't have a very high opinion of such people, but there are a lot of them out there.

Hillary has a lot going for her here. First, she has a huge amount of experience and qualifications, hands down more than anyone else in either party. She's also associated with Bill, and while Bill has been declared an enemy of the people by a lot of DUers, out there in the real world, Bill is popular and his presidency is looked back on fondly. Then there's the woman thing -- a lot of people, particularly women, think it's past time that we elect a female president (and they are right).

askew

(1,464 posts)
84. She's unelectable in the general.
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 02:27 PM
Oct 2015

Anyone who follows politics and polls closely can see that. She alienates all Republicans and most of the independents. She isn't going to get crossover votes and outside of her small core of supporters, there is no enthusiasm for her - just resignation. Look at her fundraising #s. She is still not able to get small donors invested in her. She is going to have the same problem she had in 2007 except this time her unfavorable & untrustworthy #s are worse than they have ever been. You can't get elected president when only 30-40% of the country consider you trustworthy. No one can get elected president (Bill Clinton got re-elected in a 3-way race with those #s but no comparison).

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
87. Republicans are saving up their ammo.
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 02:43 PM
Oct 2015

Were she to win the primary, we are going to hear about dark money funneled through the Clinton Foundation 24/7.

She's not electable. She wasn't in 2008 and she isn't in 2016. Keep hoping Hillary Clinton supporters, but the country isn't ready for a years worth of recounting all of the corrupt crap that is going to come flying out.

I love my country, and while our politics infuriate me at times, I trust Bernie Sanders to lead us back to where we need to be.

The arms deal crap is exactly what Rethugs are saving up for.

The River

(2,615 posts)
96. The Media Will Become Unwatchable
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 03:19 PM
Oct 2015

because it will be nothing but anti Clinton propaganda 24/7.
Everything she has done for the past 20+ years will be
examined, questioned and turned into a crisis.

IF she gets elected, the Republicans will put all their time
and effort into impeaching her. If the current Republican obstruction
seems frustrating, you haven't seen anything compared to what
will happen under a Clinton Presidency.

Juicy_Bellows

(2,427 posts)
103. You can count on it.
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 03:48 PM
Oct 2015

The media will have field days for a year - it will get beyond ugly and all of the HRC folks will still fail to realize she was the wrong choice.

So let's nip that in the bud and elect the guy that has the best chance at the general - Mr. Sanders.

He'll get his ration of shit from the media to be sure, but his serving will be much smaller.


 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
104. I think Hillary supporters
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 04:02 PM
Oct 2015

have labored for so long under the assumption that she is the only person that can get elected, it's fait accompli to them.

The reality, however, is that she hasn't even won the nomination, and a hell of a lot of people in the Democratic party aren't sold on her, either.

You can't speak to a single person about politics and walk away without the sense that the country is in turmoil and that the electorate is sick of the establishment. Why do you think some Republicans are clinging to Trump when it is obvious he's an idiot? They just want somebody that doesn't embody the elite political class.

This narrative leading up to this has been a Bush-Clinton race according to the media. The problem is that the people are not complying and just as many people on the right despise Bush as people on the left find Clinton to be a dubious candidate, at best.

I wish more people would ask themselves why they don't want to elect another Bush, because it might lead them to asking themselves why they want to elect another Clinton.

Juicy_Bellows

(2,427 posts)
140. Spot on - thank you for responding so eloquently.
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 08:00 PM
Oct 2015

I marvel as to why it isn't so obvious to more on this site.

musiclawyer

(2,335 posts)
129. She really IS unelectable.
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 06:13 PM
Oct 2015

The poling is starting to show it. Her negatives are unprecedented for someone of "destiny"
I get a lovely view working and living among working class republicans.
They hate her. White hot hate. It's remarkable because she's basically an economic old school republican. The hate comes from TV and radio brainwashing.
But that's not all I've learned. My local working class Republicans respect Bernie Sanders. I dont know why. Perhaps it's there is no history of hate directed at him. They just think of him as an old uncle who wants the best for them and is not a grifter. That's my sense. And when /if corporate media goes full socialist mode on Bernie, he will just get a bigger spotlight to talk about things that matter to these people. The deciding votes are not the religious right / social issue 30 %. They will never vote democrat. It's the 30 % low information and independent voters. They will embrace Bernie like a warm blanket. When the corporate media turns on HRC, so will they .... What happened in Canada is foreshadow of what will /is happening on the ground here in the USA.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
133. Weirdly enough,
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 06:27 PM
Oct 2015

I think more Republicans would vote for Sanders than would even consider voting for Hillary. Hell, he has impressed some of my family members with his honesty, and they would mostly prefer to jump out of an airplane without a parachute than vote for a Democrat.

It makes no sense, I know.

musiclawyer

(2,335 posts)
137. Bernie is an old white guy who shoots straight
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 07:25 PM
Oct 2015

That's the only thing I can wrap my mind around. Why would republicans say they have no problems with Bernie. I know it's just me, you, and other anecdotal information. But I hear it often. So and so republican friend would vote for Bernie but not Trump and never ever ....never is a long time....never Hillary Clinton ... What....wait .... Why? Because Bernie is white, a man, supposed to be honest as sin, won't take my guns. Ok. Check ......
I have another theory. Bill. They don't want him near the White House ever. He's dirty. Filth. Grifter. Etc.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
141. I can't respond to all of that
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 08:46 PM
Oct 2015

but I live in the sticks. I'm not about to give up my shotgun. When a New Yorker chastises me about owning a gun, I'll just smile and thank the lord I had one when a wild pig was tearing up the yard after Hurricane Katrina and there was too much debris in the road to walk, and you couldn't call the police either.

People don't need handguns, imho, but some people need long guns. I'm one of them.

Bernie Sander's stance on gun control doesn't bother me one whit. I welcome it, because he understands that not everybody lives in LA, Chicago and NYC.

 

pinebox

(5,761 posts)
110. And here :)
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 04:30 PM
Oct 2015

Ole! http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/09/19/1422802/-FWIW-Bernie-Sanders-Leads-Clinton-65-14-Also-Ties-Trump-and-Carson-in-GOP-Poll My point stands.

See, the fact that Bernie is tied with GOP contenders among Republicans says it all although some don't want to believe that. Show me a poll, any poll, that says Hillary has the same, where she leads or is tied with Trump or Carson among republican voters. Not happening.

 

pinebox

(5,761 posts)
113. It's hilarious isn't it?
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 04:54 PM
Oct 2015

I mean OMG Bernie gets Republican & indy votes! Who would have thunk it! Can you show me something where Republicans are organizing for Hillary? I'd love to see it!




 

pinebox

(5,761 posts)
116. You mean facts?
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 05:08 PM
Oct 2015

Like this?

Bernie Sanders On Reaching Out To Conservatives: I Got 25% Of The Republican Vote In Vermont
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2015/09/18/bernie_sanders_i_got_25_of_the_republican_vote_in_vermont.html
MADDOW: They heard you respectfully. With Donald Trump so dominant in the Republican field, I wonder if you are starting to think about a plan for trying to appeal to people who think of themselves not as liberals, not even as centrists, but as moderate conservatives that usually think of themselves as Republicans, but they cannot stomach somebody like Mr. Trump as their nominee. Do you have a crossover appeal?

SANDERS: Absolutely. And, Rachel, to the best of my knowledge in the state of Vermont, we got about 25 percent of the Republican vote. Why is that? Because people say, okay, I disagree with Bernie on women's rights. I disagree with Bernie on gay rights. Okay. But you know what? I believe he is fighting for my kids and for my parents and for the rights of the middle class. And you see a lot of those folks saying, I disagree with him, but I'm going to vote for them.


Those facts are really pesky things aren't they? Damn them all!

Nedsdag

(2,437 posts)
128. But but, but....
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 06:12 PM
Oct 2015

the Supreme Court her supporters keep telling people.

To me, her whole presidency will be nothing "practical compromise." This country doesn't need anymore compromising.

Hillary supporters, besides the Supreme Court, give me a reason why I should support her with a gerrymandered Congress.

I'm waiting.

onenote

(42,374 posts)
134. I would never tell you to support her in the primaries.
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 06:34 PM
Oct 2015

Last edited Thu Oct 22, 2015, 12:11 AM - Edit history (1)

But if Bernie doesn't get the nomination (and I'm working to see that he does get it), then if you want a list of the things besides the supreme court, that will happen if a repub is elected that won't happen if Clinton is elected, here are a few:

Network neutrality -- reversed by a repub majority on the FCC within six months
Executive orders on immigration, minimum wage, guns, etc. revoked within first few weeks
Environmental regulations adopted by EPA -- reversed in first year.
Iran deal -- repudiated in first week.

That's just for starters. And "besides the Supreme Court" is a strange attitude unless, of course, you don't really care that:

The same sex marriage ruling will be overturned sometime in the first four years.
When, as is likely, Justice Ginsburg steps down (she'll be 83 on inauguration day), a repub along the lines of Scalia, Alito, Thomas (but half the age of Scalia) will take her place.
Scalia will step down after three years to ensure that his spot on the court is filled by another right wing extremist, but one half his age.
Thus, any chance of a court with a majority that would stand up against Citizens United or for protection of voting rights will be lost for a decade.\
And with further evisceration of voting rights protections and chances to limit CU type influence, our chance of electing progressives will be made that much harder, notwithstanding demographic trends that favor us. We'll still eventually get to where we want, but it will take a generation longer than would be the case if a Democrat -- any Democrat -- for the next four years.

Nedsdag

(2,437 posts)
147. Whatever!
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 11:48 PM
Oct 2015

I plan on voting., but it's kind of sad that voters have to "settle."

I'm tired of settling.

All the things you mentioned are important, but I also don't see much change.

Maybe because I see very few young people enthusiastic outside of Sanders. If he doesn't win, I don't see a lot of young voters making the effort to vote next year.

She has a lot of work to do before she can earn my vote.

smiley

(1,432 posts)
136. my thoughts exactly....
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 06:53 PM
Oct 2015

Especially after seeing a recent video of her admitting to lying about taking fire in a war zone. If she wins the primary, the media will devote 24 hrs a day to that little clip and I'm sure that's not all they have planned.

The only negative I keep hearing about Bernie is, "he calls himself a socialist, and Americans will never vote for socialist". But they used to say that about black men too, and look where we're at now. That can't be said anymore, so the whole socialist thing doesn't work, at least for me. The safe bet for winning the GE is Bernie Sanders. He's a democratic socialist and a statesmen like no other serving today.

Go Bernie!

sorechasm

(631 posts)
148. Also, don't forget about the 'Ahlrnod' effect
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 11:56 AM
Oct 2015

In addition to bringing the GOP Hillary haters out in droves, Donald Trump will bring out untold numbers of low-information voters like those who elected Schwarzenegger. (They can't wait to hear him say 'You're Fired' to all federal employees. Won't that boost the country's morale.)

Democrats can only win the general election if we motivate the non-voters and the indy's. Fear of change motivates conservatives, hope for change motivates everyone else.

Hillary drives them away, but Bernie brings them back.

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