Which is non existent in Washington, D.C.

He can do hardly anything by himself. But with enough people deciding to be citizens, it all will change.

Citizens United. That's ironic, eh?

Until now we didn't realize that many people in power have ambitions that are contrary to our wellbeing. Now we're sick, broke, violent, and uneducated.

The whole notion of 1% and 99% should give people optimism. We outnumber the villains by two magnitudes! But as long as we treat democracy like a commodity, that small group of people will continue to run all over us.

He is a catalyst for democracy.

to get people to understand that democratic governance is the most power and the best protection they and their children will ever have -- if we can keep it democratic.

BTW, if anyone reading this thread is interested in earlier attempts to promote participatory democracy in America, read the SDS' Port Huron Statement (take your time b/c it's long).

http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~hst306/documents/huron.html

I only browsed it due to time constraints. I still can't believe how conscious these people were in '62. It's so frustrating to have lived through the years following. I did not realize until you posted this that there was concern during that time period. So now I know this is not just post Reagan behavior. What does give me hope is how they mention youth involvement, and the importance of universities. Both of these play a role in Bernie Sanders' campaign.

My theory is that between human population and petroleum, we became cynical and independent to the degree that our collective behavior has become self destructive.

Just two of the many things that I found interesting:

Loneliness, estrangement, isolation describe the vast distance between man and man today. These dominant tendencies cannot be overcome by better personnel management, nor by improved gadgets, but only when a love of man overcomes the idolatrous worship of things by man.

The American political system is not the democratic model of which its glorifiers speak. In actuality it frustrates democracy by confusing the individual citizen, paralyzing policy discussion, and consolidating the irresponsible power of military and business interests.

Most Americans in the 1960s weren't as conscious as "the Sixties generation," who were primarily people in their teens and 20s, and not all of them as acutely politically conscious as the activists, mostly college/university students, such as the Students for a Democratic Society (SDS) who drafted the Port Huron Statement. Another group gravitated toward "spiritual" pursuits -- Eastern religions, psychedelics, metaphysical stuff, some of which fed in to the New Age phenomenon of the Seventies. Gurus abounded, Tim Leary, Ram Dass, the Maharishi, Stephen Gaskin, etc. The countercultural lifestyle was most notoriously expressed by the hippies, whom the media later transformed into a caricature and a joke, whose motto was "Turn On, Tune In, and Drop Out." Of course the various threads of the counter culture interacted; not too many were all political or all countercultural. The music reflected all of this -- folk music at first, then a thousand explorations ("Dylan went electric!&quot , all of them captivating in their own way, accompanied by psychedelic art posters, and entirely too much to go into here. An incredibly, almost mind-bogglingly, rich time.

But, yes, the whole thing was a reaction to a lopsidedness in American culture, much of which was social, expressed in the extremely straight-laced Fifties, and much went deeper, as the Port Huron Statement shows. Even President Dwight Eisenhower, a former General, had warned the people about the Military Industrial Complex. The earliest stirrings that I was aware of were the wonderful souls who got the Civil Rights struggle off the ground in the late '50s, early 60s. Much courage, much heroism there. And President Kennedy started the Peace Corps, an outlet for youthful idealism and adventure. But I know these struggles go back further in time, like the union movement, worker's rights -- which had its own troubadours like Woody Guthrie, Pete Seeger, the Weavers. And going back even further in time, we had the anti-slavery movement. And further, the French Revolution, and before that, the American Revolution. But, as we all know, some lopsided versions of leftist political activity produced oppressive communist regimes which, imo, didn't accomplish their ends very well, if at all.

So I don't know where it all started; it probably started after groups of cave men began to dominate and oppress other groups of cave men and women. Maybe I could learn more about our version of this struggle by reading Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United States," which I own but haven't gotten around to reading yet. But I can tell you that American social conservatives exist in violent reaction to the Sixties, which they absolutely loathe.

This is the generation that produced Bernie Sanders. From what I've read, he wasn't nearly as "wild" as many of our generation, but he was 100% sincere and, unlike so many, didn't eventually sell out. He's pure homegrown American goodness, which is what he needs to express to the country, and I hope he does.

What Reagan did was to flip American society upside down so that corporate entities, and the great wealth that they represent, could gradually seize power and prevail over the American people. Reagan represented a large group of social conservatives, business interests, and capitalist ideologues who were alarmed by the powerful middle class that began to express itself in the Sixties and Seventies (and had been made possible by FDR's social/ economic programs) -- and so planned for years to overturn it. An early artifact of this modern conservative movement is the Powell Memo, in which Lewis Powell, a Supreme Court justice, warned his fellow conservatives in the Chamber of Commerce that they were losing and roused them to action. After Reagan, Clinton and Bush I furthered the conservative agenda while rightwing talk radio (and later, Fox News) kept the public distracted and angry at the wrong people, and then Bush II essentially pushed us over the cliff. Obama, imo, has been trying to hang on to the cliff with one or two fingers, but the situation is truly dire. And I don't think I'm exaggerating. Which is why the 2016 election is so crucial.

So Reagan was the catalyst for the conservative victory that has put America into its current predicament, but the roots go way back. And that's about all I can write at this point because, like all old people, I get tired.

Maybe some of my fellow oldsters could tell you more.

I was there. I'm a bit young, but I have been wasted in Height Ashbury, and lived through the amazingly colorful 70's, part of it at UC Santa Cruz, which was insane. But something about the tone of that paper seems really ahead of it's time. I'm only catching on to Marxian economic theory now. But then that has been demonized and omitted from our society. It wasn't always that way though. I suppose more Americans remembered the more liberal side of America than it seems.

You can't force participation. And people often don't realize what is best for them. One rich guy on a hill with a town full of sick and tired. That's a lousy way to set things up.

has been for his entire career, will be to the day he passes.

Some people are satisfied with a manager (Hillary). It boils down to one issue -

"Are you happy with the status quo?"

If you are, vote Hillary. She won't change anything of any importance.

If you are not satisfied with the last 30 years of politics as usual, you have to vote for Bernie. That's not a directive, it's an observation based on the fact that Bernie is the ONLY viable candidate with a real plan for real, progressive change.

Change to our energy policies.

Change to our economic policies.

Change to our entire social structure.

Leaders create change, managers create nothing.

Doesn't matter if it's the Hillary Clinton brand, the Bernie Sanders brand, the "Democratic Socialist" brand, the Liberal brand, the Progressive brand, the Conservative brand, the "Teddy Roosevelt brand," or any other brand. It is all capitalism and it rests on a foundation of the institutionalized theft of labor and the commons, war, institutionalized racism, white supremacy, and much more. 250 recs for an OP promoting the lip-service of a racist, warmongering, white supremicist, Imperialist piece of shit like Teddy Roosevelt shows how far off we are to ANYTHING resembling real social and economic justice for ALL. American Eceptionalism, white supremacy, reactionary nostalgia, and "manifest destiny is alive and well amongst the "left."

NOTHING will be changed until that is addressed and the "Hillary vs Bernie", "Republican vs Democrat" kabuki circus doesn't have a fucking thing to do with addressing it. Lets get real here.

i hear your rage, but what's your plan?

not very original to say the least. "What is your plan", "what do you propose",responses are gatekeeping nonsense to avoid the issue and reactionary to the core. Would you tell people not to try and get rid of a fatal disease until they propose a plan for the rest of their lives ? The society is ill, the disease is capitalism, and it is spreading and destroying everything in it's path and has to go. That is "the plan."

Capitalism has distorted and corrupted every social relation everywhere. Nothing is "free" from its predatory clutches. Nothing positive can come from it - in the long run - for the majority. That is objective reality and it doesn't call for a sales job or a plan to expose that fact.

There are no feel-good half-measures that will accomplish anything. This electoral two-party farce - and capitalism (in some "benevolent" form) as mandatory and "the end of history" - are pure nonsense being thrown out there by people so they can avoid the truth and hold on tight to their personal gains at the expense of destruction all around them. There is no way to reform or regulate capitalism for the benefit of the WHOLE, there is no way to make it work for the WHOLE, there is no way to "fix things" for the WHOLE, until capitalism is eradicated.

Yammering about electoral saviors, "regulation and reform", personal beliefs and individual prescriptions of change," be the change you wish to see", "get out the vote", and a hundred other feel good slogans and impotent solutions won't cut it. That's not dogma, that's not talking childish, that's not extremist talk, that's not utopian, that's the hard unvarnished truth. We will accept that or not at our own peril going forward. Meanwhile...the idea that gaining working class power involves something more than partaking in the electoral process and voting in the right candidate remains more alien to the true believers than Martians landing on the White House law.

The responsibility of anti-capitalists (leftists) is agitation, organization, and resistance against the priorities of the ruling class and capital over the working class. That also includes the unyielding critique of the mechanisms of capitalism and everything that goes with it (economic, political, and social) including the Democratic Party and bourgeois elections in a capitalist power structure. Regardless of who is nominated and elected in the 2016 election... the capitalist power structure will remain the same and the responsibility of leftists will remain the same.

There is no "plan" until people are ready to define the actual problem. How many are ready to admit that capitalism -in any form - is the problem ? How many activists and those supposedly enlightened "on the left" think capitalism - in any form - is the defining problem ?

You're more than welcome to disagree, but the entire history of capitalist social relations moves in the exact opposite direction of "reforms and regulations" that would benefit the WHOLE... regardless of those who have a selective view of history. The nostalgia for "middle class prosperity for all is an illusion bordering on delusion. To have a "middle class" there must be a ruling class and a "lower class." Not exactly a ringing endorsement for Social and Economic Justice for ALL.

just rage and agitation... but thanks for taking the time to respond.

usually gets you nothing but nothing at all.

But please keep at it, someone has to rage against the machine. I respect what you do, but prefer internal reform of capitalism.

the question is --to what actual result ? The pressing question of working class people and the poor at this moment is history is again -- to what actual result ? To what actual result - throughout the history of capitalist relations (political, social, and economic) - have the proposed "reformers and regulators" of the capitalist power structure benefited the working class and the people AS A WHOLE ? Why is this question avoided ?

What you are asking for is not possible as long as capital dominates every economic, social, and political relation. Capitalism moves in the exact opposite direction of what you are hoping for. No "fairness" for the whole is possible under capitalist social relations. For years we've witnessed the divide between leftist political views that focus on class struggle and capitalism as the problem and liberalism and it's want for reform as the only solution and starting point. It would seem that those that continue to identify with liberal reforms - as the be all and end all starting point of political action - haven't got any of the reform they're fighting for. So for liberals to continue to brush off, marginalize, and attack leftist politics and views doesn't seem to be the answer. Liberals/Progressives get very angry when they are labeled "purists" by the "New Democrats" and then turn around and do the same to leftists (anti-capitalists). Such hypocrisy is very telling.

I don't dislike Bernie. He's saying some things that are good but Bernie's rhetoric is that of a reformer of capitalism. While his rhetoric contains some things that appeal to workers struggles it could go much further. Well fed wage-slaves is not the answer or the end-game. Maybe it's yours and the liberals, but it is not for many of us who are paying a lot more attention than you can possibly imagine. Capitalism is redistribution and expropriation of the workers. Redistribution and expropriation of all wealth created by the working class into the hands of the owners and a parasitic ruling class. There is nothing in Bernie's platform that changes that fundamental theft and expropriation from the working class.

Bernie Sanders is not a leftist or a socialist in any way, shape, or form. He's a liberal with a rough edge and his platform doesn't even come close to addressing the fundamental theft, redistribution, and expropriation of the working class that capitalism is. He is also on board with American Exceptionalism, Nationalism, and Imperialist Empire. I've kept my mouth shut until now out of respect for Sanders supporters but it is what it is.

As another leftist put it and it couldn't be clearer. (No this is not directed at you personally but at the reformist movement in general)

You know you are a Philistine

You know you are a Philistine when you insist on attaching an adjective to the word "Capitalism", as in "Crony Capitalism", "Financial Capitalism", "Disaster Capitalism", "Shock Capitalism", "Unregulated Capitalism", Private-Equity Capitalism, or that old standby, "Greedy Capitalism". It is Capitalism, pure and simple, and there can be no confusion. What we see is what it is.

Perhaps there was slightly more justification for this jive two decades ago. Today, there is no possibility of a debate. The End of Ideology has itself ended. Instead of bringing "stability" to the world, capitalism has brought depression and fragmentation. Instead of bringing democracy and prosperity to the world, it has wrecked local societies where they hung on by a fingernail. No extended criticism is needed because criticism itself - social, political, and economic - has become a criticism of capitalism.

It has been this way for a long time. In the 19th century, capitalism was that which ripped small holders from the land, chained children to machinery, and pushed entire populations, on threat of extinction, across the surface of the earth. In the first part of the 20th century, Capitalism was synonymous with War and Fascism. Imperialism? Colonialism? Famine? Genocide? All the faces of Capitalism...

They told you that Capitalism changed? They lied.

If you hang your hat on reforming Capitalism, believe that your "freedoms" depend on the continuation of Capitalism, or think that Capitalism is "still preferable to everything else", all it means is that your turn hasn't come yet...

raging no matter how right they are, can take down an Empire this powerful?

Sanders, like a good general, has a strategy.


He KNOWS what you don't seem to know, how POWERFUL the predatory capitalists are.

He COULD try to fight them from the outside, or he could use their own weapons and structures, and fight them from the inside.

I don't see much opposition to them over the past several decades. Any opposition is instantly crushed and labeled 'extremists'.

So that tactic doesn't work.

However someone who has achieved a little power within the system can and is inspiring people to finally use THEIR power to take the FIRST STEP to begin chipping away at the enormous fortress-like structure they have built around themselves from inside.

If you have a better plan, then let's hear it.

"What I think" is irrelevant. Sanders is utterly irrelevant. He will accomplish absolutely NOTHING within the capitalist system without a mass movement to force change. Sanders does not want real change...he wants to tweak the staus quo. The Abolitionists didn't fight for a kinder gentler slavery. They fought for an end to slavery period. The idea of a kinder gentler slavery was as absurd an idea as the idea of a kinder gentler capitalism that liberals envision. When the foundations are rotten to the core... no tweaking will get rid of that rot. Is there something about the foundations are rotten you don't get ?

It's not up to me to give you a plan as no individual has that power. I am a bee in a hive as are you. I owe you no explanation or plan whatsoever from that perspective. What part of collective class struggle don't you understand ? It takes a movement to rise up and fight against oppression in any form. Class struggle is a collective struggle not about a "general" (as you put it) coming to save the masses as we sit back and live on hope and the next electoral savior. Debs had it exactly right.

"Too long have the workers of the world waited for some Moses to lead them out of bondage. I would not lead you out if I could; for if you could be led out, you could be led back again. I would have you make up your minds there is nothing that you cannot do for yourselves."

--Eugene V. Debs

Maybe you would like the leftists to wave a magic wand and change it overnight ? You have to build a movement but the movement and demands need to be defined. The "Sanders movement" is not a leftist movement defined. It is well-fed wage slaves with some added perks and crumbs thrown in. You would like the leftists to just accept that capitalism is indeed the end of history and hold hands with the ruling class while working on the Sanders plan to "make capitalism alright" again. Healthy and well fed wage-slaves doesn't solve the problem of who controls the resources, the commons, and the means of production. Bernie's platform does not challenge the system. Bernie's platform fits into the system and continues the exploitation while silencing and co-opting the demands of leftists back into the system.

Organize for what is the real question "progressives" have to ask themselves. Organizing to "reform" capitalism into a kinder type of wage-slavery ? Capitalism - in ANY form that progressives imagine possible - will never render social and economic justice for the working class as a WHOLE. What part of capitalism CAN NEVER work for the majority and never will don't you get Sabrina ? ALL of these feel good "progressive platform" platitudes are horseshit lip-service. Without addressing the 800 pound gorilla in the room - which is capitalism -it is all meaningless pablum. If Sanders wants to get out a real message... he needs to address and start talking about working class political power and who owns the commons and the means of production and put this feel good "help for the middle class" bullshit to rest. Bernie is still speaking in the tongues of the ruling class when he spouts that horseshit. The "middle class" is an illusion with no solid foundations whatsoever going forward. It is a decomposing bourgeois social structure and an aberration.That "middle class" prosperity that working class people had - for a few decades - was nothing other than crumbs thrown to the workers so the theft of labor by the capitalists could continue with little protest. If the working class people are to get anywhere... we have to stop buying into the lie that "benevolent capitalism" is possible. It isn't... and it will get worse not better for the majority of us.

Liberal/Progressive activists tie themselves in knots trying to force change and "reforms" in a system that CAN NEVER be tamed, changed, or reformed to meet the human needs of the collective masses as a whole. Creating and clinging to that illusion of reformed capitalism is the utmost of cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy and a very difficult job for liberal and progressive activists to reconcile. On the other hand.... leftists, marxists, ect... are under no such illusions and the outlook is a very simple and straightforward one. Capitalism has to go. The WHOLE fucking lot of it, not just selective feel good parts of it. Preaching progressive programs in a capitalist empire is like putting a band-aid on a limb infected with gangrene.

It isn't personal and it never was Sabrina. The disconnect between liberalism and leftism can't be reconciled and it never will be. Liberalism is capitalism and that is the bottom line.

I'll leave you with this from a another "leftist purest without a plan."

"I think that the hurdle that most people must pass is not in Marx or Socialism but in the very unsettling thought that there is nothing in the existing social system that is accurately portrayed and nothing within its bounds that may be employed to change that."

And also this.

"But it is not the highness or lowness of wages which constitutes the economical degradation of the working class: this degradation is comprised in the fact that, instead of receiving for its labour the full produce of this labour, the working class has to be satisfied with a portion of its own produce called wages. The capitalist pockets the whole produce (paying the labourer out of it) because he is the owner of the means of labour. And, therefore, there is no real redemption for the working class until it becomes owner of all the means of work -- land, raw material, machinery, etc. -- and thereby also the owner of the whole of the produce of its own labor."

--Friedrich Engels

You may parse and dice that in a million different ways to suit the capitalist agenda Sabrina but those two quotes sum up the true objective reality of capitalism and "what is to be done."

"When all the bricklayers, and all the machinists, and all the miners, and blacksmiths, and printers, and hod-carriers, and stevedores, and house-painters, and brakemen, and engineers, and conductors, and factory hands, and horse-car drivers, and all the shop-girls, and all the sewing-women, and all the telegraph operators; in a word all the myriads of toilers in whom is slumbering the reality of that thing which you call Power ... when these rise, call the vast spectacle by any deluding name that will please your ear, but the fact remains a people has risen."

--Mark Twain

from the beginning, and which most of us KNOW. That he nor anyone else can achieve ANYTHING without a MASS MOVEMENT.

You said that as if it was YOUR idea.

THIS is what Sanders is all about. ALL ABOUT. Now, you have what you say you want, why are you not helping to achieve it?

I'm far, far away from the only one saying this. If you venture outside the liberal/progressive cocoon... the leftist criticism of Sanders is everywhere. It is what it is Sabrina. Leftists are not buying what Sanders is selling by running in the Democratic Party. His insistence and complete capitulation in backing Clinton and the Democratic Party - if he fails - automatically disqualifies anything he has to say in the eyes of many. The Democratic Party is a party of capitalists. Leftists are not capitalists and bourgeois elections are of token value in the big picture. It is not hard to figure out Sabrina.

There is no "political revolution" coming out of the Democratic Party. Not from Sanders, not from Liz Warren, and not from anybody focusing on capitalist reforms as the be all and end all of "left" political solutions. I've listened to Sanders and Warren for ages. Sanders is a liberal with an edge at best. Leftist and Socialist my ass. He is also fine with the foreign policy of Empire. A mass movement for what ? Reforming capitalism so the "middle class" can trumpet their portfolios and talk of helping those "less fortunate" by providing "more ladders to the middle class." "The poor will always be with us so we must help them." Capitalist bullshit. We've seen this act before how many times.

The vicious and marginalizing attacks on leftists from Sanders supporters elsewhere are beyond words. Accusations of being right-wing trolls, "dogmatic cults", "utopian purest assholes", and worse. One can't claim to be "of the left" while supporting the continuation of a ruling class political system of capital and capitalism as the only possible system of political, social, and economic arrangements in society. Working for reforms as an organizational tool and a means to an end is fine. Defending capitalism and promoting working within the electoral system for reforms - as the only solution - while discrediting class struggle and class analysis is not.

As I said to someone else elsewhere. If any proposed Sanders solutions help with the leftist demands of labor, the working class, fighting racism, the struggling, then I am with those proposed solutions not Sanders the personality or Sanders as savior. If the "proposed solutions" include marginalizing leftist criticism, class analysis, and exposing the foundations of capitalism then I am not on board with that.

You've been around here a long time Sabrina and you know many who have passed through here. This below is how another leftist we both know put it and I couldn't agree more and it's how I see the Sanders campaign also. You're not obligated to agree but I'm telling it like it is from the standpoint of many leftists. The question you need to ask yourself is what course does this "movement" take if Sanders loses the nomination. The most likely course is that all the energy and the "movement" is consumed right back into the Democratic Party machine and the political impotent bullshit of lesser of two-evils groveling. How many times does the liberal/progressive faction of the Democratic Party need to be told you can fuck off now and you have nowhere else to go. They don't have anywhere else to go because they can't face the realities that capitalism is an abject failure and the Democratic Party is beholden to capital and there will be ZERO chance of "taking back" the Democratic Party.

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First, anything and everything I might say on the topic is subject to rigorous critical review and analysis. Sanders is not the "one we have been waiting for," not a guru or savior. The yearning for a savior or guru is an expression of individualism, a product of the corrupt ideology of the bourgeoisie.

There will be people taunting us in the coming months - "hey, nobody's perfect! If you don't like Bernie, then who do you like?" In other words, the can only think in terms of personalities, in the context of individualism. Leadership does and will emerge form the working class. It will not come in the form of gurus and saviors. It will come in the form of martyrs and fighters.

The simple answer is that we support the authentic aspirations of the working class, and resist any attempts by the ruling class to turn those aspirations against us and into the service of advancing the interests of the ruling class. Universal public healthcare? Yes. Universal public education? Yes. Sanders is saying those things. We support that. Not because Sanders is "good" or "right," or "our guy," but rather because, as I said, we support the authentic aspirations of the working class.

At the same time, this is no cause to abandon the left wing positions, and there will be pressure to do just that. We will see two contradictory phenomena unfolding simultaneously. Working class people will be attracted to the Sanders campaign because he is expressing some components that comprise working class aspirations. The enabling class, the functionaries and administrators and sycophants and toadies, will be promoting Sanders as a tool for crushing the Left and co-opting the working class.

Keep in mind that elections tell us where we have been, not where we are going. They are an effect, not a cause of social and political change. You will be told that your left wing criticism is hurting the Sanders campaign, and therefore "helping Republicans." That is a lie. It reveals the speaker to be more committed to preserving the current social and political arrangements than they are committed to the Sanders campaign. Left wing criticism will make it more likely that the Sanders campaign will succeed, not less likely. There would be no Sanders campaign were it not for the desperation of working class people. That is the wind in the sails, not the "beliefs" or "ideals" of the progressive policy wonks. Strong advocacy for working class interests increases that wind. "You lefties need to shut up, stop criticizing and get on the bandwagon" takes wind out of the sails.

We advocate the abolishing Wall Street, not merely reining it in a little.

We advocate the disbanding of the police forces as presently constituted, not merely "citizen oversight" or "reform."

We advocate abolishing so-called "private property" (the commons and the means of production) in the hands of the ruling class not merely some weak and half-hearted effort at making the system of "private property" look a little more equitable.

We advocate the dismantling of the social conventions and arrangements upon which racism and misogyny and bigotry are based, social conventions and arrangements that are forcibly imposed upon us by a small minority of people for their exclusive benefit, not merely the admission of a handful of a few tokens to the halls of power. We advocate the complete and utter demolishing of patriarchy and white supremacy. We do not want to see more African Americans and women sitting on corporate boards, we want to see more corporate board members sitting in prison.

We advocate dismantling the global empire and the reign of terror being waged against humanity, not merely "more diplomacy."

At the same time, we support the aspirations of the working class, in whatever form they may take. Supporting the people who will be attracted to the Sanders campaign is one thing. Promoting the personality involved, the candidacy, and the system of which he is a creature, is yet another.

Recently I watched the Burns documentary in the Dust Bowl. It is his best and with watching, I think, in stark contrast to that abomination he made about WWII. It is very compelling hearing the stories of people who lived through the New Deal era. People were put to work, people had access to healthcare and retirement and unemployment benefits, people were freed from the threat of eviction and foreclosure. Massive public works projects to retire and protect the environment were happening. Unions gained in power. Research and education were being financed. Real suffering was being alleviated, and the bankers and industrialists were fighting hard against any and all reforms.

The battle lines were clearly defined.

It is all very seductive and compelling. Yes, Sanders will either fail or else will ultimately serve the purpose of saving Capitalism from itself. Yet, I find myself thinking that maybe if we could back the snarling dogs of Capitalism down for just a brief period of time...

The degree to which the Sanders campaign presents opportunities to advocate the positions I outlined above, use it. The degree to which the Sanders campaign is used to silence the Left, resist it.

to people who are not, as your post implies, teenage fangirls/boys of some idol. Right there you could have lost me but I overlooked your false assumptions and did read the rest of your post. Not many people will if that is how you approach them.

Now, instead of YOU telling ME who I am, why I support Sanders, let ME tell YOU since logic should tell you that I know far better MY reasons for supporting him.

I am no 'fan' of any politician, movie star, sports figure or anyone else. I've heard this meme ad nauseum for the Right, for the Third Wayers and now from the Left assuming that is who you claim to represent.

See how much time was wasted by your false assumptions?

And see how much BETTER Sanders is at getting people on board for his Political Revolution? He doesn't start out by insulting them, he doesn't tell them how much smarter HE is than THEY are.

What he has done is to lay out his case to try to BEGIN the process of doing all those things you say you support.

He is getting support because he isn't telling any lies about how easy this is going to be.

He has told us what we KNOW. That the power that has been accumulated by the current rulers of this country is so massive, that even if the people were to elect him and a majority in congress to work with him AGAINST them, it would not even come close to being enough.

I don't know why you think we are so stupid as to 'look for a savior' where on EARTH did you get that idea?

He is the only candidate who can allay the fears people have of 'throwing away their vote' because he has some creds and now some successes to cause formerly doubtful people that maybe they could risk NOT voting for the Corporate candidate.

Because to change this system, the battle isn't only against those wielding the power, it is also against DECADES of propaganda. A fearful population, trained to be afraid, one side afraid if they take a risk with their votes, the other side will win.

To change that mindset is a monumental task and while the excessive greed and destruction of lives of the current ruling class HAS awakened a large section of the population, the young in particular, in general the electorate in this country will NEVER elect someone who does not present them with reasons why they should not be afraid to vote for them.

You have presented nothng to show me that there is someone else who can challenge the status quo even MINIMALLY in this election.

If Sanders loses the election, and they will do all they can to make sure he does, then everything you said will come true.

You do as you please, but I will take the rope that is being thrown to us rather than risk exactly what you predict should we not.

After that first step, then comes the next.

But we can't get ANYWHERE until the first step is taken.

You've said a lot, but presented no other option.

You want him to lose and have your predictions come true? They will.

He will be fighting a powerful machine to stop him and US from interfering with THEIR choice of candidate.

I intend to do all I can to stop THEM. I see only one sign of hope to do that. Show me another and I'll consider it.

and are avoiding the defining question. Is capitalism the problem and does it have to go ? There is no political revolution coming from electing Bernie Sanders or the Sanders movement. There is no organized left to speak of. Leftist politics is about power (who has it and who doesn't and why that is) and resources (who controls them and who doesn't and why that is). Many are perfectly fine with the power and resources being in the hands of a capitalist ruling class as long as some deference is paid to the workers. Does Bernie Sanders challenge that notion ? Do his supporters ? Sanders can barely bring himself to even say the word capitalism let alone honestly critique it. Any talk of expropriation without representation of the ruling class ? No ? Why not ? The working class has suffered expropriation without representation for how long ?

Simply answer these questions Sabrina. Is capitalism the problem and does it have to go. Are you fine with a ruling class, a middle class, and a lower class as part of societal change ? Are you fine with the commons and the means and distribution of production being in the hands of a minority ruling class as long as the workers get a "living wage", health care, and an education ? Are you fine with and is the end-game the well-fed and healthy wage-slave system of Nordic Socialism ?

Leftists are not interested in obtaining mere crumbs from the capitalist table. Leftists are interested in working class political power and controlling their own destiny and the capitalist power structure does not fit into those interests. Do you get it Sabrina ?

I respect someone who stays with their principles no matter how many are against you.

That's what I was thinking but you're right though.

Sanders is pulling in people outside the Dem. Party. There will be little hope if for the process unless we can mostly all come together. He is right on this. This is the backbone of our structure when it works for all.

I believe that with Bernie, what you see is what you get. There aren't twenty pollsters and 100 focus groups developing his "message" and altering positions to suit the changing political landscape on the fly. He says he's for the people and not the corporations, and his campaign finances clearly support this stated position.

Some candidates like to say they're fighting for workers and the poor, all the while taking MILLIONS from the very corporate interests that are crushing the little guys/gals. Gee, I wonder if those interests expect anything in return for all that cash???

Anyone who is voting for another Democrat needs to do a little fact checking and see just who and what is funding their campaign. If you're ok with corporatists turning America into a slave labor camp while the monied few drink cognac and smoke cigars, why the hell do you call yourself a Democrat???

He don't sell out.

Has any Bernie supporter here not feared for his life?

He knows this ... and he keeps going.

Sid

We all have unique experiences.

Okay that was two words. But look at what he has supported and opposed and said over the years.

His predictions have proven to be correct.

a strong word but I call him evolved .

In a world where political skill is measured by how polished one's falsity can be, it's nice to see someone who earnestly seems to mean and believe what he says.

Devoted public servant with unparalleled dedication workers rights and the middle class because: "It's the right thing to do."

Já era.