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Bernin4U

(812 posts)
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 10:02 PM Oct 2015

The Three Types of Hillary Supporters

Last edited Tue Oct 20, 2015, 04:27 PM - Edit history (7)

And what to do about them. (All IMVHO of course. And I'll be happy to edit in any good comments.)

1. The Corporate Machine.

DNC, MSM, Wall Street, etc. Not much can be done. For them, they're just doing their job. Nothing personal, it's business.

2. Hillary Fans.

The folks who still likely resent that Obama won the first time. Not much can be done here either. Trying to convince them to consider Bernie will be like trying to convince a Neocon in 2002 against invading Iraq. Fortunately, at least many will "hold their nose" and vote for Bernie in the general.

3. "I Like Bernie, But He Can't Win."

This is who we care about. This is where 100% of our efforts should be going. These are the folks who need our help to better understand the reality of the situation. What to do?

A. "Bernie is a Socialist!"

Obama is a Socialist! Kerry was a Socialist! Gore was a Socialist! All were The Most Liberal Senator in Congress! Please. You think it matters one hoot who the Dems put forward? A moderate like Kerry, or a true Progressive like Bernie, or a ...(?) like Hillary? All will get the same treatment, regardless of their actual position. Since they apply it equally, it's becoming something of a "Boy Who Cried Wolf" scenario, losing a lot of its meaning. Any candidate's gonna get the full works no matter, so why choose the centrist?

B. "Hillary can get the crossover vote."

Sure she has a lot of supporters, but I wonder if you have an inkling just how much so many people dislike Hillary? The Right absolutely hate her, and seriously believe she belongs (if not "soon will be&quot in jail. Or worse. No matter how centrist or moderate she may be (again, day of the week), they only see her as extreme left.

Those more towards the middle may not loathe her, but it doesn't mean they like her. They probably don't trust her. And this is really the issue: like her or not, 100% of Americans have a fairly strong opinon about her. And it's not going to change (for the better, anyway). Her strong brand, overall, is a negative.

With Bernie, they'll of course brand him as a Socialist. But again, that's already automatic with either of them, just as it's been for their predecessors. Beyond that, what have they got? His age? His religion? His relatively reasonable approach to gun control? There's no scandals, no skeletons. There's too little they can attack him on personally, which means it quickly moves to issues. That's not the game they want to be playing.

Bernie's lack of name recognition may appear to be a weakness, but it's really not. It's an opportunity. Plus, just look at the Repubs.

Trump leads, due to his celebrity, but does anyone consider him to be more than a publicity stunt? Among the "serious" candidates, who's leading? A doctor whom nobody's heard of. And even the others aren't huge names. It's just not that important.

D. "Hillary can get more done."

Presumably being closer to the center (depending on the day of the week), means Congress will be more likely to give her what she wants. Seriously?

If you plan to sell your house, and you want at least $300K for it. Do you ask $300,001? Or do you list it for, say, $319,999? Starting from the center means you have no hope to end up at the center. Just as Pres Obama.

Plus, Bernie has an excellent record of achievement in the Senate. Shall we compare it to hers?

E. "Hillary has the most qualifications and experience."

Does it mean that Bernie isn't qualified? It was a somewhat plausible argument against the junior senator from IL maybe, but hardly so against the junior senator from VT. The argument can maybe be made that Hillary has more experince, but that doesn't make her better. Just as one candidate for a job may have 10 years' experience, while another has 8. If the job requirement is to have 5 years', then both are qualified. You meet with both and choose based on who you think will meet your needs best. One having more experience than the other does not make the choice automatic.

For the election, Hillary may indeed have more foriegn policy experience as a former Secretary of State. But her record is clearly hawkish. She's been pro-war at every turn, and now wants to enstate no-fly zones in Syria. There is certainly merit to the statement about one candidate wanting to send your kids to college, and the other to war.

On the domestic side, Bernie has been in congress nearly 25 years. Hillary does not come close to that.

Plus, have you seen the Repub candidates?

F. "Hillary looks more presidential."

So maybe we should run Kevin Spacey or Martin Sheen or Harrison Ford? Looking "presidential" was certainly important years ago, but these days? I'm not so sure it's still a huge asset. And again, have you seen the Repubs? Certainly a lot of them are trying their best to look the part, but the front runners don't seem overly concerned about it.

G. "He won't have a Congress that will pass anything."

You really believe the Party of No is going to go any easier on Hillary than on Bernie (or they did on Obama)? The only thing keeping Hillary from being the most hated political figure in America is that Obama is still in office. Of course they're not going to want to work with Hillary. No way she has any advantage over Bernie, as far as being able to connect across the aisle.

But things can change. It's hardly long ago that marriage equality was a pipe dream. Or a black president. Or the pope on Twitter. Big changes happen fast. "Where there's a will, there's a way," may sound trite, but it's absolutely the case. What allows it to happen? Major cultural shifts in society. Equal marriage likely would have been slower to happen under a President Romney. But what if Obama had shown the courage to stand up for equal marriage from the beginning, rather than pushing for this "civil unions" garbage, because David Axelrod advised him it would be more politically expedient?

Obama squandered a lot of political capital this way. Hillary herself says she's Barack Obama minus the Y chromosome. Bernie will not make this mistake. A vote for him sends a clear message of, "Enough is enough!" Whereas a vote for Hillary only says, "More of the same."

H. "Hillary can beat the Repubs."

And Bernie can't? The polls say otherwise. Don't be too quick to assume. Plus, have you seen the Repubs? Of course they'll largely rally behind whomever emerges. But do you see any of them putting up a decent fight?

Don't vote out of fear. It means you're starting from a defensive position. You're trying to second guess, based on what you think might happen. It's never a winning strategy. Someone else said it better than I can:

"I am certain that my fellow Americans expect that on my induction into the Presidency I will address them with a candor and a decision which the present situation of our people impel. This is preeminently the time to speak the truth, the whole truth, frankly and boldly. Nor need we shrink from honestly facing conditions in our country today. This great Nation will endure as it has endured, will revive and will prosper. So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself—nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance. In every dark hour of our national life a leadership of frankness and vigor has met with that understanding and support of the people themselves which is essential to victory."

I. "Winning for the team matters most."

Bernie is the "Look Ma, no pragmatism!" candidate. When does that ever happen? He's engaging the (far? true? disenfranchised?) left and draw votes away from the likes of Jill Stein (Green Party). Whereas if Hillary gets it, many won't have the appetite to hold their nose for her, making Stein likely to do quite well next year.

J. "Hillary leads in almost all the polls."

It's true. But in business, what we care about are trends and trajectories. When the iPhone came out in 2007, BlackBerry fans ridiculed it. "Who wants a phone that's all screen and no buttons?" BlackBerry had a formidable domination of the smartphone market at that time. But the sales trends showed the iPhone making huge gains, while BlackBerry sales were stagnant. By the time RIM reacted, it was already too late.

If the primaries were tomorrow, it's no question who'd win. But they're not. As it's been said, Bernie by some measures is ahead of where Barack Obama was at this point 8 years ago. So to say that history can't repeat itself (no, the reasons behind it won't all be the same) seems a little foolish.

K. "Hillary and Bernie share 93% the same voting record (so the actual differences are minimal)."

And a Chimpanzee and a human share 96% the same DNA. Statistics are meaningless without clear context. I've read this "93%" figure dozens of times, which seems to have gone viral lately in concert with Hillary's recent "found religion" tack. Have yet to see it cited or substantiated. Plus that remaining 7% could be a lot of space. I need to research this when I have time (or, any help?), but for now just remember that Hillary was ranked as 11th most liberal senator (to which she seems to agree, and lately try to boast about), but who was Number One?

L. "Bernie isn't even a Democrat"

Rather than trying to force the similarities between Hillary and Bernie, how about we look at the similarities between Bernie and FDR? Was FDR enough of a Democrat for you? If Bernie has chosen not to be Dem, it's because he hates the DNC's creep towards "Republican Lite". You can claim the differences are night and day, but in far more ways than not, it's two sides of the same coin. The true differences are more about gamesmanship (ie, politics). The DNC is run by DWS, who tried to run Hillary as more moderate than Obama (and failed), tried to run the mid-terms as "Republican Lite" (and failed), and up till just weeks ago was trying to promote Hillary as a Moderate.

"Republican Lite" is never a winning strategy, nor is it what the people want. So now we suddenly have Hillary instead running as "Bernie Lite". But it's still the same problem. A watered-down Lite version is never going to be as strong as the Real Thing.

22 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
The Three Types of Hillary Supporters (Original Post) Bernin4U Oct 2015 OP
Beautiful post. Ed Suspicious Oct 2015 #1
TLDR.... Just kidding. Kalidurga Oct 2015 #2
"...without insulting anyone." Bernin4U Oct 2015 #3
LOL Kalidurga Oct 2015 #4
One more: Hillary because...woman cpompilo Oct 2015 #5
I've found 1 at work... SoapBox Oct 2015 #6
Yes, but those are the "Type 2's" Bernin4U Oct 2015 #8
K&R! Stardust Oct 2015 #7
Absolutely concise. New Bernie convert here! NervousGuy Oct 2015 #9
Welcome to DU, NervousGuy! CaliforniaPeggy Oct 2015 #10
Hi NervousGuy! Welcome to DU and I am a bernie Fan also. glinda Oct 2015 #11
Welcome to DU! SusanaMontana41 Oct 2015 #22
Bernie appeals to the 63%. Clinton does not. eridani Oct 2015 #12
Great point! Bernin4U Oct 2015 #13
Great post, thanks. I'm in the camp that believes Hillary cannot win a general election. Scuba Oct 2015 #14
Indeed Bernin4U Oct 2015 #16
Great post. We should target those that are SINCERE about being #3. stillwaiting Oct 2015 #15
Earlier last summer Bernin4U Oct 2015 #17
More points thesquanderer Oct 2015 #18
Thanks, a couple comments... Bernin4U Oct 2015 #19
more... thesquanderer Oct 2015 #20
There is at least another type Art_from_Ark Oct 2015 #21

Kalidurga

(14,177 posts)
2. TLDR.... Just kidding.
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 10:29 PM
Oct 2015

Well it is very long, I read enough to know it's a great post and you made some very important points without insulting anyone.

Kalidurga

(14,177 posts)
4. LOL
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 10:34 PM
Oct 2015

Yeah well maybe they will think being called 3rd way is an insult. But, it isn't if it is an accurate description. Maybe they won't like the implied PUMA label, but again if it is true it's not really an insult. But, hey if someone takes exception than your game is spot on.

cpompilo

(323 posts)
5. One more: Hillary because...woman
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 10:54 PM
Oct 2015

There is a contingent of Hillary supporters that support her because they desperately want a woman president.

Unfortunately the fervor to elect this country's first women president has led to extreme cognitive dissidence on the part of many of this type of Hillary supporter. So much so that long held principles have been cast aside, strongly supported issues capitulated, and truths rationalized away.

This is very sad to me, among other reasons because this country is in crisis and cannot afford another 3rd way candidate no matter how well intentioned. Once in a lifetime, we have a single chance to turn this country from the abyss and that one and only chance has arrived in the person of Bernie Sanders.

SoapBox

(18,791 posts)
6. I've found 1 at work...
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 11:06 PM
Oct 2015

Female...that said she wants to see a female President...period.

And doesn't care about any issues, etc.

Bernin4U

(812 posts)
8. Yes, but those are the "Type 2's"
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 11:20 PM
Oct 2015

There are "Hillary Only" supporters for a variety of reasons, and yours is certainly a biggie. For them, nothing to do but be polite, and hope they'll support Bernie *if by some miniscule chance* he were to beat her in the primary.

Our concern is for those who support Hillary primarily because they don't have the confidence to get behind Bernie (ie, they've been listening to the media). Our job is to show them why they need not fear him nor the "reasoning" (spin) against him.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
12. Bernie appeals to the 63%. Clinton does not.
Sat Oct 17, 2015, 12:24 AM
Oct 2015

Many of the non-voters of 2014 are now self-organizing for Sanders. No way in hell can Clinton inspire that kind of activity.

 

Scuba

(53,475 posts)
14. Great post, thanks. I'm in the camp that believes Hillary cannot win a general election.
Sat Oct 17, 2015, 06:50 AM
Oct 2015

Only Bernie is going to attract the voters needed for Democrats to win the GE. If Hillary is the nominee, Democratic turnout will be average, at best, while Republican turnout would hit an all-time high.

Bernin4U

(812 posts)
16. Indeed
Sat Oct 17, 2015, 12:13 PM
Oct 2015

We all live in a bubble to some extent. I've often stumbled upon some pretty hardcore Hillary bashing when looking for something quite unrelated. That her fans, and the punditry especially (since their job is to be looking at the numbers) seem quick to ignore this seems quite unwise.

What will Bernie fans do if it's Hillary who goes to the general? It's a great question. Personally I'm not fully sold on the idea of "beat the Repubs at any cost". And I feel DWS has long outlived her welcome. How bad does it need to get before she's shown the door?

stillwaiting

(3,795 posts)
15. Great post. We should target those that are SINCERE about being #3.
Sat Oct 17, 2015, 07:49 AM
Oct 2015

There are plenty of people that SAY #3, but are really #1 or #2. Some of these people have revealed neo-liberal preferences long ago, and there is NO way they would ever support Bernie over Hillary.

Those people who genuinely might be open to wanting Bernie to be President, but are currently in group #3 should be aggressively courted. For the sake of our country, future generations, and the world (climate change).

Bernin4U

(812 posts)
17. Earlier last summer
Sat Oct 17, 2015, 12:22 PM
Oct 2015

When Bernie was finally starting to get some media attention for his ability to fill arenas, I kept wondering why I was coming across so many columns declaring Bernie unelectable. Why are they going to such lengths to make such a definitive conclusion, while only presenting some pretty leaky arguments?

It's become much more clear since.

thesquanderer

(11,955 posts)
18. More points
Sat Oct 17, 2015, 10:46 PM
Oct 2015

A. "Bernie is a Socialist!"

Also, despite the negative knee-jerk reaction to the word, really, I think most people aren't even sure what it really means (and certainly in the Democratic Socialist Scandanavian sense rather than the Marxist Soviet Union sense). At one extreme you have people on the right who actually think Obama is a socialist, they're not voting for ANY dem. But I think most people are not so tied to their idea of what a "socialist" is that they are necessarily closed-minded about it. Sure, in the abstract, people tend to say "socialism, bad!" But I don't think they are necessarily strongly invested in that mindset. I think it's not typically a strong, core belief, because it's not important to most people's day-to-day lives.

Ultimately, I think relatively few people really care about what someone "is," they care about what the person says. You don't need a shortcut label to give people an idea about what you believe when you are actually standing right in front of them telling them exactly what you believe.

Yeah, the socialist label is some baggage he needs to deal with, an unfortunate distraction that will take some of his time and energy... but if you want to compare the two, I think HRC more than holds her own in the baggage/distraction department.

B. "Hillary can get the crossover vote." (related to H. "Hillary can beat the Repubs." )

In addition to your points about the limits of HRC's crossover appeal, I think people underestimate BS' crossover appeal. Repeating something I said in another thread:

There is always some crossover voting. But I don't buy the assumption that Hillary has more appeal to Republicans than Bernie has.

First of all, the Republican machine has been stoking Hillary hate for 20+ years. There are a lot of Republicans who simply will never vote for her, not because she's a Dem, but specifically because she's Hillary Clinton.

Also, as I mentioned elsewhere, assuming that the Republicans ultimately put up a "traditional" candidate like Bush or Rubio, there is a large group of anti-establishment Trump/Carson/Fiorina Republicans who may be up for grabs... but they're not going to be Hillary voters, that's another establishment candidate.

And there are those in the Libertarian wing who might consider Sanders based on his positions on things like NAFTA/TPP, Patriot Act, IWR. Again, especially depending on who the Republican candidate is, some may feel that half-a-Paul is better than none.

And even a lot of Republicans have problems with the banks, and the rich getting ever richer while their own pay stagnates.

Basically, some of his positions do resonate with some segments of Republican voters.

So yeah, I don't see the basis for thinking that HRC can win more of those votes than BS can, I actually think it's the reverse.

C - There is no C.

D. "Hillary can get more done." (related to G. "He won't have a Congress that will pass anything.&quot

In addition to your points, I don't see reason to believe that Republicans will be more eager to work with Hillary than they are with Obama or would be with Bernie. Though due to what I said about crossover voting, I think Bernie might have the potential to bring a few more Dems into the House.

E. "Hillary has the most qualifications and experience."

I will grant that she has more foreign policy experience, by virtue of being Secretary of State. That doesn't necessarily mean her foreign policy views are in sync with many Dem voters, though, as her views tend to be hawkish in this area. As far as experience in federal government, between the House and Senate, BS has 25+ years experience, which is more than HRC has.




Bernin4U

(812 posts)
19. Thanks, a couple comments...
Tue Oct 20, 2015, 03:45 PM
Oct 2015

(sticking with my original lettering)

A. Sure there will be questions and discussions about the actual meaning of socialism in this context. What's not at question is that the right will attack it, and try to equate it to Nazi Germany, the USSR, or at best Greece. (Never mind that "free market capitalism", which surely instills images of bald eagles and stars and stripes, is actually much more closely represented in places like Somalia or Central America.)

My point is that whether it's Hillary or Bernie or Kermit the Frog, whoever emerges to represent the Dems will be branded a Socialist. Hillary will not get a pass on this. No matter how far to the economic right of Bernie she is reality, she's already been branded with the Scarlet S since first becoming politically active. She will be (already has been) demonized every bit as much as Bernie, so to think she has any advantage here is naive.

B. Yes, I tried to point out why H's crossover appeal can easily be overstated, but maybe should add more why B's can just as easily be understated.

C. Doh! Straight from the Australian University of Woolloomooloo.

G. Of course, they'll continue to be the Party of No, at least as much under Hillary as Bernie (or Obama). And yes it's probably worth stating more clearly, so I'll add that.

E. Also will add, thanks.

thesquanderer

(11,955 posts)
20. more...
Tue Oct 20, 2015, 04:08 PM
Oct 2015

A. - Who knows, maybe with the presence or a "real" socialist on the scene, Hillary will escape that particular knife, at least to some extent. But more to the point, I don't think that anyone seriously thinking of voting for Hillary will be swayed by the right calling her a socialist. I doubt those accusations were ultimately what persuaded anyone to vote against Obama, either. It's a little tougher with Bernie, because it's not as entirely fictional.

Another thought that has come up since your thread relates to the "Hillary can beat the Repubs" point - which is Bernie is likely to be better able to motivate youth/millenial turnout. The electoral college favors the dem in 2016 regardless, but between what I see as Bernie's greater crossover appeal and Bernie's greater youth appeal, I think he can bring in a lot more votes than HRC can, making a victory that much more likely, and if we're lucky, maybe turning a few more House seats along the way.

Art_from_Ark

(27,247 posts)
21. There is at least another type
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 03:40 AM
Oct 2015

That is, the ones who want to win at any cost. They are like people at the racetrack who only bet on a horse to win. They could hate a horse one week, and the next week they love that horse because it's the favorite. They might have a pet issue or two that they think Hillary will be on their side with (Supreme Court!!11!), but they don't really care about the other issues. It's one reason why they can't discuss her policies in any depth.

It's interesting to see how many of these people who were virulently anti-Hillary in 2008 are now virulently pro-Hillary in 2015.
For example, check out this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5168167

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