Democratic Primaries
Related: About this forumThe reverse class resentment on student debt/free college is disturbing.
It started with the Joe the Plumber guy attacking Warren at that meeting, but it's strange to see even Dems be opposed to debt forgiveness because of the whole "free stuff" attack I usually see from the GOP. People who say, well I struggled and finally paid off my debt, why should someone else get it paid by the government. That's tantamount to a person who spent ten years on the street protesting a new program to house the homeless.
People say student debt forgiveness is regressive, which is mostly bullshit. People with student debt have on average higher incomes, true. But they also have lower wealth on average, not like it's rich people. More important, in either Bernie or Warren's plan, it's funded by taxing rich Americans, and so when you look at the overall redistribution then it's hugely progressive. That's what people do when they analyze things like Social Security, why the double standard on debt?
But beyond that, if you're a person without debt, or a person who paid off your debt, then you don't get hurt at all by other people getting their debt paid off. Unless you're extremely wealthy. Whether it's wealth tax, financial transaction tax, or high tax rates at incomes over $1M or whatever, the very wealthy are paying. If you oppose this, let's be clear: you are opposed to taking money from extremely rich people to pay for debt relief for people who are generally middle class.
If you make $1M a year, you have a huge house. You have a big vacation home. And another vacation home. You have a luxury car, and another luxury car. You have people cleaning your multiple homes for you. When you go on vacation, you travel first class and stay in five star hotels. Your kids can go to any fancy private school they want. And that's just what "low-level" super-rich people are like. You get into people earning $10M a year, and beyond that, it's even more.
And guess what. If you raise taxes on that person, their life is still going to be like that. I'm not saying rich people are all happy, they're not. Some are in bad marriages, or have drug problems, or depression, or whatever. They are human. But an incremental tax raise isn't going change their material lives much if at all.
So when we talk about who is hurt by debt relief, it's not people with no debt. It's very rich people who will still be very rich, just a little less very rich. I don't think being "resentful" of the rich or anyone else is a good look. I don't want to tax rich people to punish them, I want to tax them more because the money would make huge difference to the lives of other people.
But, if there's any "resentment" anywhere in this equation, it makes absolutely no sense that the resentment should go towards the person in a two-bedroom home driving a six-year-old car that suddenly doesn't have the burden of student debt anymore. That's what the GOP wants, the middle/working class attacking itself while the top 1% run away with all the money.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
OKNancy
(41,832 posts)I sent two daughters to university and took out parent loans. I paid $300.00 a month for 15 years. That's way more than $10,000. My dead husband was a house painter, I was a dance teacher. We were not upper income by any means. When I finally gave my van to Habitat for Humanity it was 17 years old.
I suppose the only saving grace for us is that we live in a state with a lower cost of living.
--
I have to add that you will never get that debt wiped out no matter who wins.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LonePirate
(13,386 posts)Last edited Thu Jan 30, 2020, 11:05 AM - Edit history (1)
That is all it boils down to here. Opening up education to everyone is a Democratic and progressive goal everyone here at DU should be supporting. These selfish responses about how person X paid their way so everyone else should paid their way are sickening to me. We all benefit from a more educated society. I paid off my loans with no assistance from my parents or anyone else. I fully support plans from Warren or Sanders or anyone else who want to tackle the student debt problem and make tuition free at public colleges and universities.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Happy Hoosier
(7,081 posts)Maybe I DO resent the idea that my saving for 20+ years to put my kid through college while my neighbor who did not (and spent the extra cash in-pocket on luxuries I forwent get s debt wiped out? Yeah, I DO resent that. And if I a center-of-left Democrat resent it, then how do you think the general electorate is going to feel?
We need a more nuanced plan that doesn't leave people like me out in the cold. Perhaps zero interest loans and expanded Federal grants. I could get on board with that.
Ya wanna call me selfish? Fine. See how many votes that gets you.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Amishman
(5,541 posts)Student loan forgiveness will need to include something for those who paid them off. It is both fair and politically expedient.
My preference is a one time tax credit for those who paid. People will still complain that others are getting more, but they'll want their small slice and support it.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LonePirate
(13,386 posts)The billionaires must be pleased when the commoners are fighting amongst themselves because some of them prefer selfishness to altruism.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
DanTex
(20,709 posts)The whole point is, sure, people in the past have struggled with debt, and that's a bad thing, so let's get rid of it going forward. There's no way to go back and fix the past, why not fix the future?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
OKNancy
(41,832 posts)like have some form of refinancing at 1% interest, waive payments for low income folks (which several candidates have proposed)
As far as free college.. income based free is fine with me.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
squirecam
(2,706 posts)Improve by going to law school or medical school? Didnt the job they get pay much more due to the degree.
No, you will never sell America on paying for Baron trump to go to college for free, or to wipe away the debt of professionals who can afford to pay back the loans.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Tweedy
(628 posts)And higher priced health care
Medical school takes forever & it is likely sufficient punishment in of itself. It is no cake walk. I am not a doctor; yet, this is a no duh.
Docs without debt means more docs & probably better ones -- believe it ! We would have fewer plastic surgeons & more pediatricians.
Lawyers without debt means more pro bono work for those who desperately need it. Law School is not the crucible med school is; yet, it is no walk in the park, either. This I do know personally.
Lawyers drowning in debt end up working against the little guy to pay off that debt.
You cannot live on justice alone.
Teachers by calling never teach
Engineers by inclination never engineer
These debt burdens serve no interest but the already well heeled.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
In public service have options.
https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/loans/student-loans/lawyers-repay-student-loans/
https://www.estudentloan.com/student-loans/public-service-loan-forgiveness/lawyer-loan-forgiveness
http://www.lawschoolexpert.com/7-ways-lawyers-can-get-their-student-loans-forgiven/
If your concern is lawyers in the private sector. I say, pay back the loan.
Disclaimer: Im a lawyer in the private sector. Loan fully paid back.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Tweedy
(628 posts)There are several grey streaks in my hair. Paid mine too, but the months of ramen (not the fancy kind, the cheap pre-packaged Walmart kind) may have taken a toll. The only break back then was military service.
Public service is an option. Representing a class of people obviously and seriously screwed by some part of the system is not.
You can set up a PAC & pray for a kindly billionaire....
Lawyers are people too. Assuredly you are aware of this? Things happen. What do you do with the kids who do not pass the bar? That happens too. There are even law schools with fail rates that boggle the mind. Student beware, a sort of new caveat emptor to destroy lives?
am so weary of destroyed lives. It is long passed the time we start trying to build lives up again imho
Everything about any kind of work costs money. Try to imagine what kind of lawyer you could be right now if you started sans debt? This is not my favorite thing to do; nevertheless, it is an important question here.
Lawyering IS a profession and a public service. Let lawyers quest for justice without having to rely on some billionaire's super PAC supporting vanity (& worse) projects.
We are a nation of dreamers. Imagine if we even let our lawyers dream
Unfortunately you are likely right as to public opinion. Lawyers are not popular. Yet, without lawyers, & their pesky justice yearnings, all of us would be in much worse shape.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
squirecam
(2,706 posts)What do we do with lawyers who dont pass the bar?
There are jobs you can do with a legal degree without passing the bar.
https://www.lawcrossing.com/article/900042904/60-Nontraditional-Jobs-You-Can-Do-with-a-Law-Degree-and-Should-Strongly-Consider-Doing/
https://www.degreequery.com/20-non-law-firm-jobs-law-degree/
https://barexamtoolbox.com/i-failed-the-bar-can-i-still-get-a-legal-related-job/
What I would not do is simply wipe this debt away.
If we make school free, what is to stop the failed lawyer from going to medical school. What if they cannot pass those boards? Should they get a third free degree?
Anyone going to law school knows the risk. There are more lawyers then legal jobs available. You have to weigh that before deciding to undertake that profession.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Tweedy
(628 posts)Caveat emptor was a nightmare for everybody but the guy thickening his milk with arsenic.
This is too.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
squirecam
(2,706 posts)Are they not expected to do some research? Take some self responsibility?
I knew my state bar was incredibly tough. I went to a school that advertised an 89% pass rate for that state bar. I knew how much I would have to borrow, and what Id have to pay back.
There was a financial aid counselor at my school. Did you know that most students never bothered to visit the counselor until after they were about to leave school?
People have to take some self responsibility.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Tweedy
(628 posts)The price we force adults to pay for choices they made as teenagers are staggering these days.
It was not always so.
The brain of a 22 year old is not fully "adult"-- that is if I read neurological studies correctly 😉
Why would we want a system that sets up so many to fail? Why not require schools be schools not profit mills?
Who does it serve? We are not separating the wheat from the chaff. We are burying our bright shiny young dreamers under mounds of debt. To what purpose?
Why invert the burden?
We have been inverting the burden for most of my life in almost every area. We call victims suckers and kids who get conned, failures. We even have a large block who cannot see why people who invest our money should not be able to steal it along the way if we are not "smart" enough to stop them.
I respect Senator Klobuchar. I have not heard her use that language.
This is not a question of whether kids, with some luck, can ferret a way through the maze we have set in their way.
Adults can too. Yet, I bet you still agree with me that Bernie Madoff belongs in jail.
This is a question of why we allow the maze in the first place.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
bigbrother05
(5,995 posts)Parent loans for my son's college were over $30k and his student loan was over $20k. The parent loan would have been lower except I was caught in a RIF in BRAC '95 and to continue working for the Army had to move from Texas to Alabama where my daughter finished her last 2 years of high school. The debt for his senior year doubled because the reimbursed cost to move my family counted as income and pushed us above the $50k/year threshold where our "obligation" increased dramatically.
Not criticizing your feelings, just expressing mine. Anything that helps families like ours to try to keep up or even move up is a good thing. If my taxes are a bit higher, that's okay because those kids are going to be the ones keeping SSI going and maybe finding a cure for cancer.
BTW when I say families like ours, I mean those that want the best for their kids and will use any help they can get.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Magoo48
(4,659 posts)A free and dynamic next generation is absolutely paramount as it faces the dying planet we are leaving them. Personal ideas of fairness are overridden by a looming climate catastrophe. Want to talk about fairness, what is fair about the world we are condemning our children and grandchildren to?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
LonePirate
(13,386 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
And maybe I am stupid, it is possible - I did somehow get to where I am about $90,000 in debt from Undergrad and Law School with no foreseeable path to being debt-free, and I also know the saying "misery loves company", BUT how does someone else having to face the same financial burden as I have faced, work to my benefit?
And how is it fair anyway - if I drive into a ditch due to the driving conditions, would it only be fair if all the other drivers on the road drove into the ditch too? Wouldn't that just leave no one to help get anyone the F out of the ditch?
Are we not supposed to be working to make things "better", to fix things that can be fixed, to help those that need help, to make things "fair"-"er" than they are or have been? Probably not - fuck 'em, hey it is terrible here in Debt-topia - lets make sure you join me -
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Magoo48
(4,659 posts)The selfish bit (word) was arrogant and wrong considering my own selfishness issues.
Otherwise, I stand by my argument. peace
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
PatrickforO
(14,516 posts)To use another analogy, that is like saying that Social Security wasn't fair when it was instituted in 1935 to people who had already had their old age in grinding poverty.
It is a change in policy that benefits all of us over the long run.
The root of every evil is some sort of selfishness, which of course includes greed, and that extreme, freakish form of greed called avarice. The two biggest illusions we have as a species are the lust for power and the lust for wealth.
Life is hard enough without starting our children and grandchildren off as debt slaves.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
judeling
(1,086 posts)SS did not burst on to the scene full blown. It grew incrementally over decades.
There are profound differences. There are generations of parents and children who centered part of their live working hard to do the right thing to give themselves a chance to better their kids or their lives. As it is being presented now it seems like all that effort was pointless.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
PatrickforO
(14,516 posts)Just because many of us, including myself, have in the past paid off student loans, it does not relieve us of the responsibility of looking objectively at what is going on with student debt, and how our children and grandchildren are now just starting out after graduating college as debt slaves. Because when you are a newbie and your first job after graduation is at the bottom of the totem pole, say $14 or $15 an hour, and you owe $350 a month on your student loans, you are essentially a slave to that debt.
Not to mention the cost of remittance. In my state, Colorado, local businesses forego around $2.4 billion a year in lost sales due to student loan payments flowing out of the state.
In addition, we as Democrats claim we want people to have good jobs with reasonable job security, decent healthcare, a decent old-age pension, safe and reasonable working conditions, with reasonable job security. Unfortunately MOST new job creation is done by small businesses, and people in the Millennial generation are not starting businesses at the same rate as Xers or Boomers did. Why?
The primary reason is that if you throw the dice and borrow capital to start a business and then it fails, you STILL owe on your student loan, and if you end up having to go bankrupt it is almost impossible to even reduce the principle amount. Joe Biden was one of four Democrats in the Senate who supported the 2005 changes in the bankruptcy laws. Did you know? He was.
So, basically our kids and their children will end up being debt slaves because in my metro area nearly HALF of all job listings require some college or vo-tech, and over 30% require a bachelors degree. So mixed messages. We tell our kids, "Oh, you have to go to college to get any kind of decent job and have a good life, and then due primarily to states cutting back on higher education funding, costs have soared, you have a problem.
It is like so very many things in this capitalist utopia - risk is mainly passed on to taxpayers, while profits are stratospheric. Loan practices grow more predatory as regulations are reduced, and the costs are passed more and more and more onto consumers. Problem is, if we see healthcare as a basic right, then public funding for it becomes a moral issue, and if we see an educated labor force as important for continued prosperity, then public funding for higher education becomes both a moral and an economic issue.
To refuse to increase subsidies for higher education so it is debt free just because some people who have borrowed and subsequently paid back their student loans is penny-wise and pound foolish, because of the economic ramifications.
If you go into the US Census and navigate their terrible new platform successfully, you can actually get the inventory of degrees in any given geography by age. If you then do the proper calculations, you can see that many degreed people 'age out' of the labor force each year, but there are fewer new graduates to take their places.
That's why I say penny wise and pound foolish.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
R B Garr
(16,920 posts)What student loan cancellation policies does Vermont have?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Perseus
(4,341 posts)It takes legislature to pass bills, and that goes for Vermont as well. You seem to infer that because Vermont doesn't have free education, and I don't know that but will research, that it is Sanders' fault?
You could also ask yourself if education was improved during the Obama years, and how much did Biden contribute with it? A good move would have been to eliminate Charter schools that seemed to grow during those years. I know nutrition improved in public schools thanks to Michelle Obama, but other than that, what?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
R B Garr
(16,920 posts)how is he going to convince others? That's the point. The "revolution" is touted as all that is necessary to magically transform any wish into reality, so why hasn't he been able to achieve anything in Vermont?
I don't have to do any Whataboutism about grade school education under Obama when the subject is free college, presumably something that attracts the youth vote, and no grade schoolers are voting yet.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
squirecam
(2,706 posts)But couldnt get it paid for either.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Perseus
(4,341 posts)A good person can do wonders as president, a bad person can create chaos. What a senator can do in his/her state is limited to what other people in the states' legislature will allow them to do. Even when the presidency is not supported by the house or senate it also limits what that person can do, an example is Obamacare which was more than what it ended up being, Obama not having the support needed was not able to implement what he set out to do, which was "Universal Healthcare", trying to put all the responsibility on one person is naive. Anyone trying to make a negative point about a candidate could say that Biden was ineffective because he was not able to negotiate with republicans to make sure Obamacare became what they set out to implement, and THAT would be unfair knowing that republicans will not negotiate, not ever, with any Democrat.
With that kind of logic one could also say that Biden was ineffective as a VP because of this and that, and that would also be unfair.
I guess what I am trying to say here is that comments must be fair, anyone can make mountains out of molehills, exaggeration is easy to do, but always better to stick to the facts.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
R B Garr
(16,920 posts)demagoguery about a "revolution" that is at issue. It's like you are single-handedly trying to change the whole nature of Bernie's magical revolution into incrementalism in order to defend the lack of progress in his own home state. If his revolution is about convincing people to revamp our entire government, then you would expect to see some success in his own home state. Start there. Make those revolutionary changes there and then share your examples of how you revamped your state to reflect your own revolution.
The whole "revolution" is an exaggeration, which you are pretty much admitting to here by saying Bernie can't do it alone. No kidding, but why does he expect others wouldn't have the same limitations. The double standards are glaring.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Reader Rabbit
(2,621 posts)More people get educated, fewer people susceptible to propaganda and BS. People with crushing debt are less likely to stand up against abuse of power. They're too busy trying to keep up with the merciless pace of making enough money to make ends meet.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Having an educated populace has benefits besides just to the individuals.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
PandoraAwakened
(905 posts)Sadly, some choose to focus on selfish, small-picture ideations about imposing their own life experiences on others, rather than what's best for the nation as a whole.
I would challenge anyone crying about fairness to stop and ask themselves which is more important? An educated populace able to resist fascist propaganda and revive our democracy... orrrrrrrrr...an enslaved populace struggling as you have done, too busy working multiple jobs to give a crap about what is best for the nation as a whole?
WHICH IS MORE IMPORTANT? Go ahead...ask yourself that one.
I would also ask those crying about "fairness" to include in their fairness arguments just how fair it is that we're saddling the next generation with climate change debt while simultaneously asking them to pay for the knowledge to get us out of the mess that we created! Yeah, that's fair...
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)And I certainly understand you defining resentment as the only reason that disagreement exists.
I'm sure it's not a preening, self-righteousness on your part, despite it sounding and appearing precisely as such.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
DanTex
(20,709 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Perseus
(4,341 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
highplainsdem
(48,731 posts)Both the Sanders and the Warren plans for student debt forgiveness -- especially the Sanders plan -- will allot most of the money to people who need it least, the smallest amount to those who need it the most. You can help the neediest students for a small fraction of the cost both their proposals would cost.
Analysis by an Obama admin Treasury official of how Warren's plan is regressive.
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2019/04/24/how-progressive-is-senator-elizabeth-warrens-loan-forgiveness-proposal/
Again, the Sanders plan is much worse.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Basically an excuse to not do a program which, in totality, is progressive. It's the same as GOPers who say Social Security is regressive.
It's only "regressive" if (a) you measure by income and not wealth and (b) you only consider the benefit part and not the revenue part.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
highplainsdem
(48,731 posts)as much to the wealthiest as to the poorest. SS caps benefits. Warren's plan puts some limits on student debt forgiveness, but not enough to stop it from being regressive. Sanders doesn't cap them at all. So a kid from a wealthy family who runs up hundreds of thousands of dollars in student debt to get a law degree, MBA or medical degree that will almost certainly result in hundreds of thousands or millions in higher income will have his or her debt wiped out. There iis NO WAY you're going to be able to get such a plan through Congress, or sell it to the American people.
And btw, the source of the revenue is not relevant to how regressive the debt relief plan is.
A plan that taxes the richest to give mostly to the upper middle class and rich is NOT what most would consider a progressive plan.
But it's an easy way to woo younger voters.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
DanTex
(20,709 posts)If you look at the Social Security tax alone, then it is regressive, because it's capped. But when you look at the entire program, not just the revenue half, then it's not regressive.
With debt relief the argument is even weaker. Not only do you have to ignore the revenue half of the equation to make the case that it's "regressive", you also have to measure by income and not by wealth. If you include the revenue in the equation, it's progressive by any measure. If you measure by wealth then the benefits themselves are progressive, so by that measure it's a progressive tax with progressive benefits. Only if you ignore both of those things do you get to "regressive".
Actually the argument is worse than that even, because, relative to income, the debt burden is higher on lower incomes. So, even ignoring the revenue side, and even ignoring the wealth issue, the distributional effect of the benefits alone would be progressive in the same sense that cutting taxes on low incomes by 2% and cutting taxes on high incomes by 1% is progressive. In order to build the "regressive" narrative, you to ignore basically everything that people usually consider in analyzing policies.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
highplainsdem
(48,731 posts)hundreds of thousands of dollars for those who don't need it.
A tax-free financial windfall.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
DanTex
(20,709 posts)makes it stronger politically because Republicans can't paint it as being for "those other people."
Also, no wealthy people will get a "windfall" because truly wealthy people will be paying the taxes that funds the program.
I see where Warren is coming from, but the amount of money that will be saved by excluding the tiny number of actually wealthy people that would get a "windfall" is minimal. And like Bernie said, it just makes it more bureaucratically complicated, people are sick of filling out forms, they don't want to have to prove they are deserving of an education.
Free college and trade schools for all. You want a higher education, you can have one, whoever you are.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
quaker bill
(8,223 posts)I live simply and I made a decent salary, so I could.
I worked minimum wage jobs to put myself through college. I determined that my child would not need to do that, it was a personal achievement that I focused on making happen. I am entirely happy that I did it.
Now I could have taken out loans, and she was certainly offered loans. Had I done so, she would have debt and I would have more cash. This was not my plan or what I wanted to achieve.
Now Warren proposed to cancel student debt. Some dillweed feels he is being cheated because he paid and will not get his money back. I do not want my money back. The expense was a gift to my daughter that I am happy to have made, I do not want anyone giving it back to me, because I did it on purpose.
That guy may have regrets that he gave his daughter a college education, I do not. I am happy to see debt forgiveness and it takes nothing from me.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LonePirate
(13,386 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
mopinko
(69,806 posts)yes, dumping huge sums of money on ordinary people will goose the economy.
but it would likely be a whole lot more efficient to just pass it out fairly, to everyone.
the bottom line, for me anyway, is that people will not vote for big piles of free money in america. period.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
DanTex
(20,709 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
mopinko
(69,806 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
DanTex
(20,709 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Midnightwalk
(3,131 posts)I want to make it easier for people to afford college and pay off their loans. I disagree with people who argue in effect I got screwed so the next generation should he too.
But I know that is a sentiment that cant be ignored. We need to maintain democratic control of government for multiple years. Weve only had control 10 years sporadically over 52 years. That is the entire problem in a nutshell.
I also know there are legitimate fairness concerns. The student who takes out loans to go out of state for 4 years takes on a lot more debt than the student who stays in state and takes their general ed classes in community college. Is it worth worrying about that? It doesnt keep me up nights but knowing the resentment it triggers Id rather have some limits just to avoid feeding resentment.
If nothing else it leaves money to address other priorities or emergencies.
You didnt mention Bidens or any one elses plan. Doesnt go as far but also doesnt cost as much. Thats the false argument I keep seeing if you dont want to do as much as sanders plan you are a corporatist republican disguised as a democrat
I dont agree with either of the extremes in this argument.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
highplainsdem
(48,731 posts)plan before.
I just think there are much wiser uses of money than a debt forgiveness plan that mostly benefits those who don't need the help.
As the Warren and Sanders plans do.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
redqueen
(115,096 posts)This is why Yang's flagship proposal is aimed to help everyone.
Most Americans are currently living with a mindset of scarcity. That is what needs to change. Only his proposals can do that.
For anyone unfamiliar with the concepts of a mindset of scarcity vs one of abundance, I urge you to look into the research on the same.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
NCProgressive
(1,315 posts)1. The debt forgiveness/free college has no requirement that these students maintain a certain GPA or perform work in an underserved community.
2. What about people who don't go to college but start a trade? An electrician, plumber or mechanic buying tools with debt to start making a living? Why is their debt inferior and not paid for?
3. Neither Sanders nor Warren proposed this until they ran for POTUS - and thus there is validity in an argument that it is just a ploy to get younger voters. Bernie has been in congress for 30+ years and the first time he thought of this was when he ran for POTUS. Nothing before then.
I say it is pandering to a certain privileged class who want to go to college and get their votes. All the window dressing about it being progressive is an afterthought to justify.
Add the plutophobia to it and you have a segment jumping with joy that we are socking it to the rich.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
highplainsdem
(48,731 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LonePirate
(13,386 posts)There is no reason to exclude them.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
squirecam
(2,706 posts)Or do we spend $100,000 on c- students who would rather attend the kegger than the classroom.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
DanTex
(20,709 posts)1. The debt forgiveness/free college has no requirement that these students maintain a certain GPA or perform work in an underserved community.
Right, we don't want two classes of students, the wealthy who have no requirements and the "poor kids" that do. High school its still free even if you get Ds and spend all your time smoking weed. The opportunity is free, it's up to the individual to take advantage of it.
2. What about people who don't go to college but start a trade? An electrician, plumber or mechanic buying tools with debt to start making a living? Why is their debt inferior and not paid for?
Trade schools are free, and both Bernie and Warren and all the candidates have plans to support small businesses. You could just as nonsensically ask why are we helping people who start small businesses but not those who don't. We should help both.
3. Neither Sanders nor Warren proposed this until they ran for POTUS - and thus there is validity in an argument that it is just a ploy to get younger voters. Bernie has been in congress for 30+ years and the first time he thought of this was when he ran for POTUS. Nothing before then.
Umm, that's what people do when they run for president, they put together a platform. Like, Obama didn't have his healthcare plan until he ran for president. Biden didn't propose half the stuff on his platform when he was in congress. Bernie's been a democratic socialist all his life, so pretty sure he was always for free college. Warren used to be a Republican, but she changed her views, which good for her.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
NCProgressive
(1,315 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)Was NOT the goal?
Shit, NOW they tell me ...
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
squirecam
(2,706 posts)The C- D student in high school by giving them four more years of free college to attend keggers?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
DBoon
(22,288 posts)Then of course you resent someone paying less. They have devalued your status symbol. You spend lots of money to buy a house in a prestigious neighborhood, then some buys the house next to you for a lot less, your would be upset.
If you treat education as a public good then you want as many qualified individuals to have this education.
If you treat student debt as a social problem and a drag on the economy, then you want to reduce outstanding student debt.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
bucolic_frolic
(42,678 posts)Working slobs don't want to pay for well-educated peoples' educations. They hold as much resentment against them as they do against lawyers, scientists, government bureaucrats, accountants. You signed on the bottom line, you do the time.
All I hear is debt is preventing these folks from moving on with their lifestyle and consumer spending, so it's patriotic to subsidize them and let them consume for the economy. To forgive their debt is to enable them to do it all over again. Why should others pay for that?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
bucolic_frolic
(42,678 posts)They are not cost-efficient. Tuition increases have far outpaced inflation. That's why students have to pay more and borrow more. I'm no Republican but throwing money at a problem and the benefactors figure it out. From what I've read, and I don't know how true it is, we're getting itinerant part-time faculty, star departments heads who are only seen in classes of 600 or more and an occasional senior seminar, and every school seeks prestige with foreign visiting faculty and sabbaticals for their own. Where's the quality? With tens of millions with degrees, even advanced ones, it's hard to gain an advantage.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)It seems to be common for people who have experienced some kind of suffering to want other people to suffer. It's like resenting a cure for cancer because a family member died.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
infullview
(978 posts)As the parent of a child who is current attending college, I was shocked to find out that the parents are FORCED to be co-signers on student loans until your child as older than 27!?????? WTF! I had kids late in life and will now NEVER be able to retire if my kid can't make good on her loans. How the hell is that fair? My kid is self sufficient, has her own apartment and works along with going to school and she's still not considered independent!?!?!? F*ck our A$$HOLE system!!!!!!!!!!
I'M ALL FOR FREE COLLEGE AND FORGIVENESS, AND FUCK ALL THOSE ASSHOLES WHO DON'T LIKE IT!
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
bucolic_frolic
(42,678 posts)There are holes in the system. My folks wouldn't sign any aid forms, but I attended schools far below my potential. It was a waste of time. I would have been better to skip town and work til 27 if that was the age at the time, I have no idea. I had a conversation with a librarian one day and marvelled at the online ebooks - no excuses for students. We both had worthless degrees. She said she'd wished she'd waited 5 years so she knew more about the world and had more knowledge to make better career choices. I sure understood that tangent. So to get roundabout back to your observation, in my view until you understand career paths and where you want to get to in life, it's best to tread water for awhile. College degrees are about as reliable for a prosperous life as 401K's are for beating the market, which is to say not at all due to periodic crashes.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
infullview
(978 posts)A college degree from a reputable school opens doors - even if the job isn't within your major. I know of at least two philosophy majors that ended up as software developers. I had college loans, but when I was in school the tuition was better subsidized by the state, and money actually had more value. You could actually survive with an average job, pay your bills, and save. You can't do that now. Another argument for making college accessible is, we as a country, are falling behind the rest of the world in the number of college educated per capita. That means we will quickly fall behind in technology, science, math, and a host of other disciplines that will make us a nation of inferior workforce and innovation. China, Germany, India, etc.. will overtake us in every way on the global manufacturing and economic fronts.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Squidly
(783 posts)I work in a field that is not even remotely close to my degree, but I wouldnt have the job I have now without it.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
cilla4progress
(24,589 posts)Smdh
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Fiendish Thingy
(15,369 posts)Unless The person in your example is a nurse, teacher or engineer, they arent likely owning a two bedroom home and driving a six year old car (unless they have a graduate degree), they are probably renting a one bedroom apartment, or depending on the area, still living with their parents. They might not even have a car.
Forgiving student debt and making state universities free is a wise investment in our societys and economys future.
And I say this as someone who put myself through college, paid off my grad school loans, and put my daughter through university as well.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
a la izquierda
(11,784 posts)I grew up working poor, so when my parents split, there was no money for college for me.
I guess I shouldn't have taken out loans for my education. But I did. And my penance is paying them off until I die.
As someone pointed out upthread, those of us who are educated and are burdened by student loans make nice incomes, but have less wealth. I can't afford to buy a house. And I'm a university professor at a major research institution. About a quarter of my salary goes to my loans and medical insurance.
I'll try to hurry up and die, though, so the possibility that my loans are forgiven doesn't burden anyone.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
PurgedVoter
(2,192 posts)My children's debts are paid. I wish this were true for every one. The reason is simple. I have no love for the bankers and a lot of love for my country.
If you resent other people being freed from debt after you have struggled to pay off yours, then you are thinking exactly what the jerks at the top have paid good money to make you think.
What sort of slave after escaping tyranny would look back and want slavery to continue because they suffered?
I would love to have that money back. But my resentment of a burden removed from another man because I once shared that burden only serves the ones that helped put the burden on my back in the first place.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
BuddhaGirl
(3,586 posts)Very well said!
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Mosby
(16,168 posts)Because debt forgiveness is never happening.
We should be having a discussion about why college education is so expensive and how we can better control costs.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
infullview
(978 posts)Even if we don't get to debt forgiveness we can
1) change bankruptcy law to include credit card debt AND student loan debt.
2) Subsidize state universities to make tuition and board affordable.
3) Give larger grants to help pay for tuition
4) make new government guaranteed student loans with low interest rates
5) Allow the child to claim independent when they turn 18 so that they can qualify on their own income
instead of forcing the parents to cosign
THERE'S 5 THINGS RIGHT THERE THAT WOULD MAKE A HUGE DIFFERENCE AND DOESN'T EVEN INCLUDE DEBT FORGIVENESS
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
If we want to be entirely fair to our ancestors we must immediately move back into caves.
The idea that a kid with the grades, the drive and the ability to be a great doctor has to be buried under debt (unless that kid won the birth lottery) makes no sense. It also increases the cost of health care.
The idea that a amp loving (& understanding) kid has to become indentured to a for profit school to become an electrician is bizarre.
The idea that a kid with the grades, the drive and the ability to be a fantastic teacher instead becomes a stock jobber in order to shed enormous debt is a tragedy, & a very stupid one.
The idea that grandparents want their grandchildren to suffer because they did is just mind boggling.
All this debt does is delay lives, deny earnest dreams and deprive all of us of the full potential of our population.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Recursion
(56,582 posts)It's a giveaway to the richest part of the country. I'm used to Republicans doing that, not us.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Which is what makes me all the more convinced that this is just the usual centrists who also say that Social Security is regressive in order to cut it.
Why is it progressive?
1) Because if you include the revenue as well as the benefit, then it's obviously progressive. And with other programs like Social Security, the entire transfer is considered, not just the benefit half or the revenue half. Why the double standard here? I mean, even if this were funded by a flat tax (which it's not), it would still be progressive, in that it would transfer wealth from higher incomes to lower incomes. When it's funded by something like a wealth tax, or a financial transaction tax, or a progressive income tax (which is what's proposed), it's even more progressive.
2) Because if you measure by wealth instead of income, then it's obviously very progressive. Debt forgiveness is a one-time transfer, not a recurring thing. In effect, it's a wealth transfer and not an income transfer, and as a wealth transfer it's highly progressive. And even if you disagree, the very fact that it's the lowest quintile of wealth that has by far the most college debt shows how absurd it is to call them the "richest part of the country". Since when is the "richest part of the country" the part that has the lowest wealth?
3) Because when you measure debt burden relative to income instead of in absolute terms, then again it's progressive and it's the lowest quintile most heavily burdened. This is the way it's done with most (all?) other policy analyses. Like if I cut taxes by 10% for people under 100K and 5% for people over 100K, that would be considered progressive. That's because, relative to income, the lower income people benefit the most. In absolute dollar terms, of course, the highest income people benefit the most, because 5% of a million dollars is a lot more than 10% of 50K.
The only response I've heard is that some guy at a think tank thinks it's regressive. And that's because the think tank guy makes those three peculiar accounting choices in order to come up with the conclusion that it's regressive. It's obviously not.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Recursion
(56,582 posts)If it helps an accountant making $250K a year (and it does) and it doesn't do anything to help a waitress making $19K a year (and it doesn't), it is regressive, and while your gaslighting about this fact may salve the upper middle class's conscience, it doesn't actually change that fact or make it attractive to the non-college-educated (and poorer) two-thirds of the country.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Whether it's regressive or not is based on the entire distribution, not on one example of an accountant being compared to a waitress.
Whether it's progressive or regressive depends on the data, the direction of the redistribution. When you look at the data, it's not regressive.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)This interest in actual numbers is new.
Glad I've had an effect on you.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Yes, obviously if you were going to propose a surtax on billionaires and use that, and only that, to pay for debt relief, that would be progressive.
When a candidate actually proposes that, I'll listen. But paying off the debts of the richest third of the country from the general fund just isn't of interest to me.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
DanTex
(20,709 posts)I don't know if the funding is dedicated like it is for SS, some policy details haven't been worked out, but all of the revenue increases that either Bernie or Warren proposed are highly progressive. But even flat-tax funding, or just funding with debt, is progressive because the debt burden lands more heavily on wealthy people.
You're right, taxing billionaires to pay for debt would be progressive, but that would be less progressive than taxing them to forgive college loans.
Also, like I said, it's not regressive if you measure by wealth instead of income, and also if you measure redistribution relative to income, like people do with taxes. It's only three specific accounting choices that make it appear regressive.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Recursion
(56,582 posts)That will make it cost more, but that's what my support would cost
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
DanTex
(20,709 posts)cash transfers instead. I've got mixed feelings about the UBI approach, haven't decided one way or another, but certainly there's a case there.
My point is that debt forgiveness is not regressive. In the same way that (say) a program designed to help small businesses could be considered unfair to people that don't own small business, the same argument could be made here. But it's not regressive.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
lapucelle
(18,040 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
DanTex
(20,709 posts)without significantly impacting their living standards.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
lapucelle
(18,040 posts)according to your reverse discrimination theory.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
DanTex
(20,709 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
George II
(67,782 posts)....have it's $18K student debt relieved?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
JustAnotherGen
(31,685 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Codeine
(25,586 posts)and reverse class discrimination isnt going to get the votes of those skeptical about the plan. If you want people on board with such a program then youve got to sell it to people who dont have student debt because
A) They busted ass and paid theirs off,
B) They busted ass to pay as they went, or
C) They dont have any debt because theyre poor as fuck and never went to college.
Make all the noises youd like about resentment or envy or greediness that youd like, but those noises will do fuck all to advance debt forgiveness from being a political fantasy to a legislative reality. Alter the plan to include benefits for the people (presumably the vast majority of voters) who arent carrying a completely voluntary debt load knowingly and deliberately entered into and there might be less pushback.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden