Negotiators Add Abortion Clause to Spending Bill -NYT

WASHINGTON, Nov. 19 - House and Senate negotiators have tucked a potentially far-reaching anti-abortion provision into a $388 billion must-pass spending bill, complicating plans for Congress to wrap up its business and adjourn for the year.

The provision may be an early indication of the growing political muscle of social conservatives who provided crucial support for Republican candidates, including President Bush, in the election.

It would expand to all hospitals, clinics and doctors a provision that currently applies to Catholic hospitals, which are exempt from a federal law that requires health care providers that receive taxpayer dollars to discuss the option of abortion with women who inquire about it. The language would also allow hospitals and health care providers to opt out of state and local laws that require them to provide abortions, abortion counseling or referrals.

"It's something we've had a longstanding interest in," said Douglas Johnson, a spokesman for the National Right to Life Committee. He added, "This is in response to an orchestrated campaign by pro-abortion groups across the country to use government agencies to coerce health care providers to participate in abortions."

http://nytimes.com/2004/11/20/politics/20spend.html?hp&ex=1100926800&en=d8f29f1422805611&ei=5094&partner=homepage

Along with info on the guy who shrub wants to head the FDA..you know, the "go read the Bible to get rid of your monthly cramps" guy.
I told them that I'll take their leftover Advil since they won't be needing any from here on out.

is that you can't turn your back on them for 2 FUCKING SECONDS! :grr:

With his two Veto's we can Filibuster this and if Dems stick together it will work, till they take this out of a "Spending Bill" this has nothing to do with Spending. Lets see if Our Democratic Leaders have any kind of Backbone at all.

snip>
The provision could affect millions of American women, according to Senator Barbara Boxer, Democrat of California, who warned Friday that she would use procedural tactics to slow Senate business to a crawl if the language is not altered.

"I am willing to stand on my feet and slow this thing down," Ms. Boxer said. "Everyone wants to go home, I know that, and I know I will not win a popularity contest in the Senate. But they should not be doing this. On a huge spending bill they're writing law, and they're taking away rights from women."

Stand strong :) We are behind you!

As a native Texan, I have, for all practical purposes, nobody in Congress to represent me. I am starting now to keep a journal of which Democrats fight to oppose hateful legislation that keeps chipping away at our civil liberties.

The next vote will be in 2006. I will not spend one penny to support a tepid or spineless rep. For now, our votes are the only power we have, and unless something is done now, voting will be a joke next time.

My main requirements now are that whoever we support and elect has to represent OUR values, and has to stand firm instead of lying down and playing dead when a Neocon gives them a dirty look.

This is how the Dept of Homeland Security was created last year. This is also how Eli Lilly was retroactively exempted from any lawsuits involving innoculations they produced. Last year's "must pass" reconciliation bill was loaded with pork and corporate lifelines.

I am NOT pro abortion. I am in favor of a woman's right to choose. There's a big difference there, you fucking ass wipe nutjob.

with the talk from Democrats after the election, about moving toward embracing the religious right people by Democrats, I have little faith they will fight it with any vigor.

So far...on the debt ceiling issue...Dems have fought the good fight. But they're outnumbered. And out-eviled.

Catholic hospitals must provide information regarding birth control (i.e. condoms, etc.) to patients if they inquire?

We tried getting a law like that passed here in Hawaii, but our Repub. governor vetoed it.

I want women's right to their own reproductive choice overturned quickly. Let it happen fast. Faster the better. We lost our right to our body in this election (selection). Let's suffer the consequences so that we can show what happens. Maybe we can win the next time if voters finally realize what will happen. I'm not willing to fight a continual warfare, instead I want to win in the end.

who voted for these morons that I could care less anymore.

This is just the beginning; The Catholic "political party" insurance corporations are offering lower health insurance withholding vasectomy's, contraception, tubal ligations, absolutely no abortions nor information about, and no artificial insemination.

I HATE these people....

> Let's suffer the consequences so that we can show what happens.

The past four years have shown that this does not work anymore!

> Maybe we can win the next time if voters finally realize what will
> happen.

Not as long as they own the news and the voting machinez!

> I'm not willing to fight a continual warfare, instead I want to win in the end.

Letting them have their way "temporarily" just means that we lose in the end, and that end comes more quickly.

I may change my mind but for today I think we should let it happen. Fighting a losing battle seems crazy. I know we'll lose so let's look to the long term. :shrug:

Unless we can stop it before it gets much further.

I think we need to lose before we can win. We can't stop this in the next two years. Just lose so we can win later.

who voted for Nixon in the McGovern/Nixon presidential election. Their theory was that things had to get WAY bad before they'd get better. So voting for Nixon was the quickest way to make that happen. I understood what they were saying-but I still couldn't do it.

In 1972, the Democrats had both houses of Congress, and the Supreme
Court was still pretty reasonable. Now we have nothing.

> Their theory was that things had to get WAY bad before they'd get better

Now it's more like things will get way bad before they get even worse.
Once the theocracy is in control there is no going back.

way things are going now. With the unbelievably large
deficit, weak dollar philosphy, OPEC and others going
euro based, China's dominance in the world, the go it
alone oops in iraq, China and Russia dumping american
dollars, the european investors are all dumping US based
assets. Hell, even Mexico's peso is gaining against they
dollar as Mexico increases its trade with China. The last
thing any US investor wants to be hanging onto are 401Ks
based on US dollars. So the anti-choice biggots want
to take over the US? Okay, they can have it.

You really want to let all of them down?

they got the rules on overtime pay changed. The ones that allow anyone with a high school diploma that tells anyone how to do a job to become salaried and exempt from overtime.
Gotta watch these spending bills!!!!

let the people find out what values they voted for.

There are many meanings to the word snake. I will not dishonor
reptiles by referring to republicans as slimy snakes. There has
to be a another comparison that would suit them. Any ideas ??

:grr:

If this measure doesn't provide an exemption for women whose lives are in danger, this language would not only prevent abortions, it would kill women. What if someone comes to the hospital with a tubal pregnancy, and there's no other hospital nearby, for instance? Or she needs chemo and radiation therapy for cancer treatment, but can't have it if she's pregnant. If she's in a small town and can't travel to another city, she's toast. Tell that to those so-called "right to life" killers.

Isn't not having an exception for women whose lives are in danger what caused the original "partial birth abortion" bill that was passed earlier to be overturned by the SC? I realize that the Bush Criminals are doing all they can to control the Supreme Court, but the wording of the legislation may be our saving grace.

Personally I think that the greater crime here is that these people will be willing to force their legislation into other bills in order to try and weasel their fascist agenda into the mainstream. Anyone who would vote against a spending bill surely must be crazy. It's the same kind of thing they pulled with the PATRIOT act - if you were against it, you must be unpatriotic.

Personally, I don't feel how even if you are "pro-life/anti-abortion" that you can have the gall to go around and try to push that agenda on the 55 million people that don't think like you.

but I do know that sometimes you need a d&c after a miscarriage - it's the same procedure as an abortion, but wthat doesn't matter if the doctor doesn't know how to perform one. So it's either bled to death or lose your ability to have children due to infections, or go bancrupt because you have to travel to a different town to find a doctor that can do it....

They are getting bolder and bolder, these criminals, that's for sure.

:grr:

If there's anything that pisses me off more than non-germane legislation being packed into bills, I don't know what it is.

This has NO place being in this bill.

FWIW my personal stance is I don't think real highly of third trimester or PBAs, but I don't support banning them because I frigging hate "slippery slope" legislation.

edit:
-------
I meant "foot in the door" legislation...like this crap.

AAAAGGGHHHH.

Banning abortion won't make it go away. We'll just have lots of illegal ones and plenty of health problems as a result.

Please, name one state that allows late term abortions unless the mother's life is in jeopardy? All states have laws preventing abortions after the first trimester unless the mother's life is in danger. If you're against that, then you've bought the rightwing propaganda.

I meant partial birth abortions.

And no, frankly, I'm NOT in favor of sacrificing the mother to save the child.

Honestly, I'm a male, and I'm not aware of any female I know having an abortion for nearly 20 years. I freely admit I don't know what all is and isn't legal there. I assumed it was legal right up until the birth and I would not vote to change that.

I would not support banning procedures to save the mother's life, either.

Clear enough?

a Partial Birth Abortion.

Totally a figment of the Republican party.

PBA is a RW term that has no correlation to an actual procedure. Stop watching Fox News.

I used to work with some fundies.

Hear crap often enough, some of it sticks.

We let them define the debate and they are winning because of our failure to establish our own framing and advance our own position by putting them on the defensive.

The most egregious example is the nearly universal use of "pro-life," a term that is all touchy-feely, but hides their real intent which is to lock up doctors and women!

Their position isn't "pro-life" it is "pro-criminalization." Can we all agree to stop calling these folks "pro-life?" They are pro-criminalization and the public needs to be reminded of this at every opportunity!

I could say a lot more about this, but I'm too enraged after reading the NYTimes article. Suffice it to say, we should have known it was coming and we should have played hard ball before the election.

it's not that one side is 'pro-life' and the other is 'anti-life'. that's how THEY projected it. no one wants to see abortion rates rise - that's the agreement.

so - the argument is really HOW to accomplish that. I'd rather see family-friendly policies and a world that women didn't have to make choices between survival, health care, education, a roof over their head, or caring for their other children.

or as Clinton put it - make it so that abortion becomes a RARE event.

they want to illegalize the procedure - which has proven NOT to work.
i don't see how anyone can claim to respect the 'sanctity' of life and then abandon millions of children to poverty, no health care, no education, nothing.

FACT - under Clinton abortion rate was reduced and under Bush, it's INCREASED.
That's according to a Baptist commissioned study.

the 'pro-criminalization' arguement is nothing but a thinly veiled excuse, from an elite group, to take more from society and escape paying anything back in return. It's a vote for poverty and cheapens the value of life.

*EXCEPT - the latest 'trick' is to write bad laws, with bad language to get out of doing nothing.

Bush USED the religious right, and their issues, to win and he owes - this is their payback. But has anyone looked at the way it's written? (I haven't)

I'll bet it's so poorly written it can't be enacted. there have been a number of opportunities for republicans to pass abortion laws, in the past 20 years, and they haven't done it. reminding them that this is = pro-criminalizing and nothing more, and has NOTHING to do with sanctity of 'life' as long as they continue to reduce the QUALITY of life for so many, never hurts.

We need to stop allowing them to corner us with their language.
'pro-life' is a joke, just like 'clean-skies' and 'healthy-forests' and 'leave no child behind' (tx is 48th on school tests, 50th for drop-out rate).

so everytime you hear someone talk about it - speak up when they are WRONG.

reich wing nutjob propaganda term - IS TO PROTECT THE LIFE OF THE MOTHER!

That's the whole fucking purpose of the proceedure! That's why it exists in the first place!

I think that point has been made.

I already said I didn't pay that much attention 'cuz I was just waiting for him to shut the F up and go away. Eventually he got the hint that I couldn't care less what he thought about abortion.

The procedure banned was intact dilation and extraction, often called D&X. The thing is, the bill had no exception to protect the health of the mother. Roe V Wade stated no laws could be made to limit abortion unless there was a clause to protect the mother's health.

But health is a very broad term.

In the case of the ban on D&X, it is a procedure that could be done at almost any point in the gestation, but is typically done late in the pregnancy. There are cases where this truly is the best and safest (abortion) procedure for the woman, but rarely is it the *only* procedure. The thing is, there are some cases where the doctor could start to perform another procedure, but if complications develop, he would have to finish with the D&X.

that the "New Freedom" initiative is attached to?

:puke:

But I agree with others here -- let it go through. Let the Republicans have everything they want. The sooner they get what they want the sooner we'll hit rock bottom. Young girls nationwide will begin dying from non-medical abortions again, selective service will return, the economy will tank...and the sooner these things start impacting the goddamn Neo-Fascists in this country personally, the sooner they'll start turning on Bush like crazed wounded animals.

Once again the hypocrisy has no limits.

Funny that I just posted on that earlier today. They're, uhm, D&C's, not abortions. If the mother is bleeding to death, you can have a D&C. This is really really bad. It's about a whole lot more than abortions of choice, it's about abortion if you have cancer or other illness that would be better treated without a pregnancy. It's about complications that don't have you on your death bed yet. This isn't just about back alley abortions, this is about reproductive health in general. It is WORSE than the 50's because at least then doctors and hospitals didn't worship the fetus.

... the dead will walk the halls of Congress.

Well, some sick people may be, but just because we want the right to choose doesn't mean that we LIKE abortions! I would never have an abortion, but I want the right to make the decision for myself. I wish people would stop saying "pro-abortion" instead of "pro-choice." They're so incredibly different.

Something that reflects the rights of a woman as a person.

Freedom Fighters for Humanity, Liberty Fighters, Americans for Sane
Decisions, Americans for the Rights of our bodies...

Basically by making abortion illegal, they are saying a woman is a vessel for a man's seed and has no rights as a living entity of what goes on in her body.

That's why it's so important.

they keep twisting terms. Partial birth abortion is the worse...
it's a damn medical procedure to keep a woman at less risk when
the pregnancy has gone awry, the baby will die due to too much
water on the brain.

What the hell is the point of demanding this go to term?

Now they must do a C-section and let the baby die naturally.

That's even worse.

They are also going after birth control, which to me says it all...

and of course they never support getting women the same wages as men,
never support any child care provisions or any damn thing that would
support a family.

It's all designed to reduce a woman to a second class citizen.

When you lose on election day, you lose control over the legislation passed by congress and signed by the prez. We lost and will have a hard time blocking this kind of legislation. And the worst part is -- the new congress has not been seated yet! Wait until the repubs have 55 in the senate and start approving every fundie RW judge. We are screwed.

I've had it with the Nazi Party.

I WANT OUT OF JESUSLAND

I want to live in a FREE AND INDEPENDENT CALIFORNIA that can tell these fucking Nazis to go to hell!

Who is with me?

but it would be nice if the repugs couldn't come back and say well the dems voted for it too.

this is what is needed to get the sheeple's attention.

allowing this to go through unchallenged is a BIG MISTAKE!!! A lot of you out there must be too young to remember a time when an unmarried woman going to the emergency room because of a miscarrage was routinely interrogated by the doctor and often police were called in to question her too. Once they get this one through, they'll be even harder to stop!:mad:

from the article:

The provision could affect millions of American women, according to Senator Barbara Boxer, Democrat of California, who warned Friday that she would use procedural tactics to slow Senate business to a crawl if the language was not altered.

"I am willing to stand on my feet and slow this thing down," Ms. Boxer said. "Everyone wants to go home, I know that, and I know I will not win a popularity contest in the Senate. But they should not be doing this. On a huge spending bill they're writing law, and they're taking away rights from women."

Reid will probably overridse her efforts. The new minority leader has always voted against the right of choice. What a disaster.

An anti-abortion mormon trusted with our right to choice. Hmmm. Wonder which way he'll go.

I predict "don't rock the boat" or "let's not do anything now - we'll win in 2006" bullshit.

Better have some valium handy, too. It's gonna be a bumby ride.

If folks don't mosh this one, then is the beginning of doom, first women's rights, then...

via e-mail and read them the riot act about this. Not that it will make any difference to them, but I feel better at least having my say.

There people are social regressives, not social conservatives.

Social Regressives

Pro-Criminalization
or
No Choice Regressives

Off topic, but...
There was a thread after the fraud of Nov2 that detailed how powerful language is in framing the debate...NLP stuff. We need to compile a list for reference on DU. We have enough regulars now that we can make a difference if we campaign hard enough.

Here's one for you:

Reproductive freedom and GLBT rights aren't "Social Issues". They're CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUES.

she is all fired up. They also added some kind of tax thing in there...i didn't catch all of it but it gave people the right to look at your tax records and do with the info what they wish...i dont know the details. Anyone else watching?

watching this on CSPAN right now!! It's amazing!