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mcg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 03:56 PM
Original message
UC scholar to help Democrats refine message

UC scholar to help Democrats refine message
Party is urged to control policy debate

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/12/05/MNGDIA6N3I1.DTL

"Washington -- House Democrats, seeking to take the offensive against Republicans in an effort to win back a majority, will talk Tuesday with a Berkeley scholar who says Republicans have succeeded by framing the nation's political debate on their terms.

The scholar, UC Berkeley professor of linguistics and cognitive sciences George Lakoff, is a hot item in liberal circles these days as he argues Democrats must develop a message that resonates more deeply with voters. His latest book, "Don't Think of an Elephant: Know Your Values and Frame the Debate,'' is on best-seller lists in Washington and the Bay Area. ..."

The book is not expensive ($7.50 at Amazon), I haven't read it but I'm thinking of getting it. I've been thinking about this issue, the republicans have indeed been very clever in their abuse of words. We need to deconstruct their wording, clearly see the logical and factual faults, then frame an appropriate rebuttal that people can relate to. Not just that, but present progressive values in a way that hits home.


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Lefta Dissenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. I just received the book
and have barely started it. Already, though, it is interesting, and causes one to rethink one's words very carefully!
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oscar111 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. "half-moral values", retort to moral values phrase.
my contribution:
is in the title.

repub's leave out the other half, which is ...ending suffering.

Like, Food Stamps and housing and good minimum wage, and jobs for all.

Their puny half, is bedroom values,... period.
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
2. It's the hot book at our Democracy for America meetings.
I'm going to read it. This Master's in Psychology has studied framing and appreciates his effort, basically. I've been doing quite a bit of thinkin' about how to frame the argument - articulating from the heart, so-to-speak.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
3. Why is it that...
when the Democrats hold strategy meetings to "refine their message", it gets written up in the papers, so that we all look like we're a bunch of marketing hacks.

But when the GOP holds their strategy meetings, nobody writes any stories in the newspaper about how the GOP is "refining their message". Even though they clearly spend more time at it than Dems to (and do it better).
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
18. Because Repugs work their strategy meetings is dark back rooms.
Democrats prefer the light, so all may see.

I'd rather my party looked academically studious by planning their strategy where it can be seen than be involved with a party of rats who prefer to live in the shadows.

BTW, did you catch that? I rephrased your term "marketing hacks" to "academically studious." I know in some circles that would sound bad, but it sure is more respectable than "marketing hacks." Framing and phrasing the public debate needs to start with us at the grassroots level, in how we talk among ourselves. If we have resigned ourselves to "be the media," we also need to "be the Democratic party" and work to educate our politicians just as we seek to educate the 51% that purportedly voted for the chimp.

JMHO
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vet_against_Bush Donating Member (260 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
5. Getting it for Christmas... nt
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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
6. I have read essays and excerpts and Lakoff is definitely the man IMO (nt)
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
7. Problem with Lakoff
While he fully understands how their framing works, he doesn't understand how to reframe because he doesn't understand anybody that isn't leftist America.

"First, if you empathize with your child, you will provide protection. This comes into politics in many ways. What do you protect your child from? Crime and drugs, certainly. You also protect your child from cars without seat belts, from smoking, from poisonous additives in food. So progressive politics focuses on environmental protection, worker protection, consumer protection, and protection from disease. These are the things that progressives want the government to protect their citizens from."

Because see, adults don't want to be protected from making personal choices, even bad choices. It is one thing for a responsible parent to protect their child because their child can't protect themself. It is an entire other issue for government to protect a citizen in the same manner.

This is just one example. Until people like George Lakoff figure this out, we'll continue to lose.
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Seat belts are not a 'leftist' concept
The party MOST guilty in trying to get laws passed that protect adults from themselves is NOT the Left.

It is American Insurance Companies. They are the ones who lobby for seat belts, helment laws, and rubber baby buggy bumpers on everything. Do you really think that efforts to pass anti-smoking laws would have gotten ANYWHERE without the power of Insurance Industry money behind them? Do you think a bunch of lefty activists singlehandedly defeated the tobacco industry? Right.

The Right (and the Center) take the Insurance companies' money, passes the laws, then blames the whole damned thing on the Left.

Until people like you figure this out, we will still continue to lose (and Lakoff just as wrong for the same reasons -- he believes too many RW lies).

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. I'll give you that
To be honest, hadn't thought of it. Even though I do tend to pick out the corporate interest in anything. But I would agree, until we look for the corporate interest in anything being proposed, we'll always lose as a people.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Your second argument today that has left me thinking
huh?

Could you elaborate.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Understanding people
On health care, Kerry said it is a right. That appeals to the left and the nurturers in America. He didn't need to convince them, he needed to convince the authoritarian types. He would have done better putting it on economic terms, the US can't compete when all other countries pay for their health care outside of business. Small business can't compete with large business because they don't have the purchasing power. Bush did that with small business, and offered a lame solution. Kerry's solution was ten times better, but he didn't sell it on economic terms. If you don't understand what really motivates the people Lakoff is supposedly trying to reach, you won't reach them.

I do think there are moral issues in there too and ways to reframe the moral debate as well. I don't think it's all economic choices, alot of folks really want a moral society and care about it. Kerry's service program and building community could have made those folks think. Anyway, I just put this one thing up as an example of why I think we're losing. The "thinkers" just don't get ordinary Americans.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Where are you getting your evidence of what Lakoff thinks?
The Rockridge Institute has a lot of material on economics and Market Fundamentalism (as they call it) at their website.

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. From George Lakoff
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. ?
In that second link, he was talking about nurturing as way of indentifying what liberals had in common, regardless of what kind of liberal they were. He's saying that liberals need to figure out what they have in common so that they stop working against each other. It wasn't that he was arguing that "nurturing" was the way to frame every issue (or even, after a very quick read, the way to frame debates with conservatives).
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Here
Edited on Mon Dec-06-04 05:32 PM by sandnsea
All his framing seems to be nurturant based, aimed at bringing various groups on the left together. None of it considers the mindset of the money-centered American, it's what we're arguing about in the airline thread. YOU are arguing that business competition is the solution to a transportation problem, "competition" as the solution to all that ails is a right wing frame. I don't see how Lakoff bridges that gap between nurturing left and economic right. And I also don't see where it bridges the gap using "take care of everybody" when the right is saying free markets and personal responsiblity are the best way for people to lift themselves out of poverty. His style of framing doesn't solve any problems for the Democratic Party, seems to me.

http://www.alternet.org/story/16828/
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. I have yet to see an example of him using nurturing as a frame.
In the interview that you linked he's saying that that is what people on the left have in common, and they need to rally around what they have in common. Lisa Duggan makes a similar argument about schisms on the left in her book The Twilight of Equality, which is very much an argument about framing things in terms of economic power (as well as political and cultural power) flowing to the people.

In the quote below, which seems to be the most recent thing Lakoff has written, he uses the term to indentify a mode of communication and not as a frame for any specific issue.

As for the airline thing, I'm not framing a debate between right and left (unless you're a right winger). I'm pointing out that a law does little more than protect the profits and power of American Airlines and the ciities of Dallas and Fortworth and DFW, which all spend a lot of money on lobbying.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. But you are
Using "competition" as a justification to deregulate is a classic right wing frame. THAT is why we lose, we accept the right wing frames. You're not consider the overall good to the people from having regulated airline routes and quality airports for ALL the people. Lakoff doesn't seem to offer any method of framing to bridge those gaps. How would he reframe "competition" so that people like you would understand it doesn't always end up benefitting society, in economic terms because Americans tend to think in economic terms first.
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. No, that's the wrong way to go about that
Edited on Mon Dec-06-04 05:54 PM by htuttle
You don't reframe 'Competition'. By doing that, you are already accepting the frame created by the right wing.

You reframe DEREGULATION. Frame it as the wishes of a few greedy individuals at the expense of the rest of us, for example. Bank robbers who use guns instead of pens would certainly like strongarm bank robbery to be deregulated, but we aren't about to do so.

edit: speling
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Please see
This thread and chime in. Because AP's argument there is that we need to open Love Field to Southwest because American Airlines is being protected at DFW. Competition will make the airline industry better. But he seems to ignore the benefits of regulation to the people and that his proposal will affect other airports around the country. So how do we get to the point where we see Southwest's desire to deregulate as Southwest being greedy and not wanting to share the burden of the expense of ALL airline operations; when what we have now can also be framed as American Airlines being greedy.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2795087
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Who is hurt because SW won't have to stop once on its way to Chi?
Edited on Mon Dec-06-04 06:15 PM by AP
Besides AA and the cities of Dallas and Fortworth and DFW airport?

The airline industry IS deregulated. This is a federal law that has outlived the purpose it was established for, and merely serves to protect the profits of AA by allowing them to charge Dallas are flyers more for long-distance domestic flights.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. It protects the AIRPORT
So it can serve ALL the people in a safe and efficient manner.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. Why isn't there room for two airports to serve all the people in the area?
And for a lot of people, flying out of Love field is more efficient and convenient.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Protected for Southwest
Southwest didn't cry when their flights were protected at Love. Love was supposed to be phased out, but wasn't. Why? To protect Southwest. Why is Love still a safe airport? Consistent income from Southwest. Southwest had a nice little federally protected racket and built quite an empire on it. Typical corporate behavior. Then turn around and point fingers when they benefitted in the first place. Southwest wants to squeeze out competition from smaller airlines at DFW and benefit from its own monopoly at Love.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. Southwest got lucky becuase the population grew so much in the SW --
Edited on Mon Dec-06-04 07:18 PM by AP
-- in the area in which they were allowed to fly direct.

DFW benefitted for the same reasons. It would have been silly to close SW out of Love when all the gates at DFW were probably filled with airlines making decent profits. There was room for everyone to thrive.

But how does that argument justify making SW stop once on the way to Chi or LA today?

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. Quality airports
To maintain the level of quality at DFW. Because perhaps, there isn't enough traffic for both Love and DFW to operate at full capacity. And if NEITHER Love or DFW took in adequate income, the quality of BOTH airports would crumble.

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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. There is no L vs R debate re Love field !!!!!! Lakoff isn't relevant.
What is going on at Love filed is this: there's a law which prohibits long distance flights out of Love -- where Southwest, a low cost airliner has operated for years. The law gives a monopoloy to DFW, where AA has hub. Originally, it was intended to phase out Love and ensure DFW would survive. Perhaps because of the growth in the popluation of Texas and the surrounding states, Love did survived and grew despite the restriction, as did DFW.

Yet the law survives and largely serves as a profit protection act for AA -- it is PRIVATIZING the gain -- which forces Dallas flyers to pay more for their tickets when they watn to fly to NY, LA or Chicago -- thus SOCIALIZING THE COSTS.

Regardless of what you think about free markets, it's pretty obvious that the Wright Amendment no longer serves its orginal purpose.

What does Lakoff have to do with this issue?

When it starts to get framed as a left vs right argument, let me know.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. "competition solves everything"
That's the right wing frame. They did it years ago. It's as much a part of the American pscyhe as Christmas. Any time a corporation wants to make more money for themselves, they pull "competition" out of the hat and off they go. Push a button and the American people are off and running.

As I posted in the other thread, there's more going on with Southwest than the simple "frame" they're pushing. When a right wing frame pops up, I say "whoa" and want to look further. Too many Americans don't because they're been well-trained or well-framed, whichever.

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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. Who is pushing a frame?
Airline tickets might be more expensive than they need to be. If we're not going to have national airline, the least we could do is take away a few of the artificial restrictions which no longer serve any purpose other than profit protection for established airlines.

I think it's kind of right wing to socialize costs and privatize gain which seems to be the purpose that the Wright Amendment now serves.

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. See #39 n/t
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #31
42. I'd call it what it is: intense and directed psy-ops,...
,...but, I agree with your post.

"Life" and "living" has been converted into something NOT "life" or "living".

We've been deceived.

Our "quality" of LIFE,...sucks.

BEING merely a CONSUMER or FAILED COMPETITOR,...is empty.
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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. I think the idea is/should be for govt to provide families with
the ability to protect their children by providing a family society.

  • family leave
  • better wages so both parents don't need to work full time
  • affordable health care
  • affordable day care
  • normal length work days/weeks
    etc...
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    sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 04:47 PM
    Response to Reply #11
    13. Economic frame
    Lakoff wants to use a "nurturing" frame. Until we go back to approaching everything in this country from an economic frame, we'll never win over Americans who only think in those terms. And that includes around half of the poor and working class.
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    AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 05:00 PM
    Response to Reply #13
    17. This is a pretty succinct summation of what Lakoff thinks:
    Edited on Mon Dec-06-04 05:03 PM by AP
    and I don't see how you get out of it the idea that he's only thinking of a nurturing frame. I get the impression that he uses that term as a contrast to a conflict-based model (which is what Republicans do). "Nurturing" doesn't mean you don't talk about economics. It means that you bring people around to understanding what you think about economics rather than try to shout them down.

    Remember once more that our goal is to unite our country behind our values, the best of traditional American values. Right-wing ideologues need to divide our country via a nasty cultural civil war. They need discord and shouting and name-calling and put-downs. We win with civil discourse and respectful cooperative conversation. Why? Because it is an instance of the nurturant model at the level of communication, and our job is to evoke and maintain the nurturant model.

    http://www.rockridgeinstitute.org/research/lakoff/howtorespond
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    Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 06:44 PM
    Response to Reply #17
    34. Well,...he has discussed how the right-wing CREATES an environment
    filled with fear and danger and uncertainty demanding the protection of the "father" image. He has asserted that there has been an abject failure to counter the right-wing environmental imposition (of the NEED for a "father" protector) with the necessity of "nurturance" as an imperative tool of survival. In other words, who gives a damn if there are "warriors" killing so many enemies when nobody is left to feed, clothe, shelter and love everyone left behind. The "warriors" would be killing for their people who are dying and dead,...if there are no caregivers. Humanity could not possibly continue without caregivers and would certainly meet its end if left in the hands of professional killers.
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    InvisibleBallots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 10:46 PM
    Response to Reply #13
    58. the "nuturing" thing was one example, compared to Charles Dobson
    Latkoff's "family nuturer" analogy was compared and contrasted to "Dare to Discpline" by Charles Dobson. I don't think that Latkoff suggested our major frame be "the nuturuing family" that was only specific example. I get what you're saying about putting things in terms of economics, certainly.
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    Iris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 06:09 PM
    Response to Reply #7
    27. Well, society has a lot to lose when some dumb ass is maimed
    because he's "too cool" to wear a seatbelt or a helmut. So maybe THAT'S the way to frame that argument.

    Quite honestly, I look around and I see people wanting someone to tell them what to do all the time. I guess they feel better having Cororate America do it than an entity that they can take part in creating.
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    Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 04:24 PM
    Response to Original message
    8. I've already begun to reframe the message --
    for example here in California the repukes made a big deal of the so-called car tax (aka vehicle license fee), so I've made a real point of telling people that while I'm grateful that Arrnuld has lowered my car tax by $52, I am very distressed that my tuition tax has gone up $2500 since he took over -- I mean higher education is just as fundamental as having a car.

    Lakoff is SO RIGHT! Check out this interview of himL
    http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/10/27_lakoff.shtml

    Framing the issues: UC Berkeley professor George Lakoff tells how conservatives use language to dominate politics

    By Bonnie Azab Powell, NewsCenter | 27 October 2003

    BERKELEY – With Republicans controlling the Senate, the House, and the White House and enjoying a large margin of victory for California Governor-elect Arnold Schwarzenegger, it's clear that the Democratic Party is in crisis. George Lakoff, a UC Berkeley professor of linguistics and cognitive science, thinks he knows why. Conservatives have spent decades defining their ideas, carefully choosing the language with which to present them, and building an infrastructure to communicate them, says Lakoff.

    The work has paid off: by dictating the terms of national debate, conservatives have put progressives firmly on the defensive.
    In 2000 Lakoff and seven other faculty members from Berkeley and UC Davis joined together to found the Rockridge Institute, one of the few progressive think tanks in existence in the U.S. The institute offers its expertise and research on a nonpartisan basis to help progressives understand how best to get their messages across. The Richard & Rhoda Goldman Distinguished Professor in the College of Letters & Science, Lakoff is the author of "Moral Politics: How Liberals and Conservatives Think," first published in 1997 and reissued in 2002, as well as several other books on how language affects our lives. He is taking a sabbatical this year to write three books — none about politics — and to work on several Rockridge Institute research projects.

    In a long conversation over coffee at the Free Speech Movement Café, he told the NewsCenter's Bonnie Azab Powell why the Democrats "just don't get it," why Schwarzenegger won the recall election, and why conservatives will continue to define the issues up for debate for the foreseeable future......

    I would really like to work with other people on ways to reframe the message -- anyone out there want to serve on such an ad hoc 'committee?'

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    catzies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 04:47 PM
    Response to Reply #8
    14. Please take a look at this website. It's a new group founded on Lakoff's
    priciples and its first president is a recently termed-out Assemblymember from Santa Barbara, Hannah-Beth Jackson.

    http://www.speakoutca.org

    It's the Institute for the Renewal of the California Dream.
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    prairierose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 05:06 PM
    Response to Reply #8
    20. DU has a group discussing this...
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    Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 06:28 PM
    Response to Original message
    32. Hey,...Lakoff is a better linguistic than Chomsky,...
    I have the utmost respect for Noam as a political activist. But, he fails the "common human" (e.g. layperson) linguist test (sorry, Noam).

    Lakoff avoids being wordy, frames concisely, and chisels language far better than Noam.

    He'll be great for forcing precision and impact.
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    Anakin Skywalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 06:31 PM
    Response to Original message
    33. I'm NOT buying.
    Another "sell your soul to win" type. Forget it.
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    Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 06:50 PM
    Response to Reply #33
    35. If we fail to win this war,...intolerance/fascism/greed will rule.
    Is that what you want?

    Our "enemy" does not play by morals or principles or rules,...they play to win,...and they do not give a damn whether they spend your blood or mine or my son's life.

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    Heartland Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 06:50 PM
    Response to Original message
    36. Principles vs Values
    I have been think of this framing issue for awhile. As Liberal who is also a democrat I consider myself a Principled thinker.
    Liberals practice the process of living.

    Conservatives believe that having predetermined values is living. The concept of process eludes a rigid mind. Conservatives memorize and imitate values.

    Conservative Values provide a two dimensional look at a multidimensional Universe i.e. Good-Evil, Black-White, winner-loser, leader-follower, on and on and on.

    Principles provide for process. Principles allow for variations of perception based observed behavior and real experiences.

    Values without the benefit principles are rigid and become irrelevant as time moves on.

    There are Liberal Republicans and Conservative Democrats. One thing to do is start to call Arnold, Pataki, Giuliani Liberal Republicans not moderates. Start defining liberal in terms of philosphy not politics.

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    Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 07:33 PM
    Response to Reply #36
    43. Yes. Life is a process,...not a result.
    Those who are killing us (literally,...in mind, body & spirit) are brainwashing people into "results" that they may NEVER recognize.

    Frankly, I'd extract the now maimed and dying word, "liberal", completely out of the picture since that word has been successfully dismembered.

    It's time for a 21st C. word to describe the majority of humanity; something that actually represents the human spirit.
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    sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 10:09 PM
    Response to Reply #43
    55. Oh certainly
    Democrats/Liberals/Progressives need to LEAP forward into an entirely new "reality". Visionaries, futurists, something totally new.

    Then, frame those who might care to move forward too as Liberal Republicans. Don't let them hide behind that "moderate" cover anymore. They'll either have to "come out" or be stuck in the dark ages with the regressive fundamentalists.
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    Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 10:26 PM
    Response to Reply #55
    57. Excuse me. A new "reality" has been created,...whether you acknowledge it
    or not. Frankly,...well, I'll hold my tongue.

    No,...I just can't do it. I think you are a member of a propaganda war you and yours waged some 35 years ago against those who fought for REAL "freedom",...kept "democracy" ALIVE,...advanced the ONLY path to "liberty" by demanding, DEMANDING the rule of law apply to EVERYONE!!!!

    But, of course, I could be wrong. And, IF I am,...I am SO SORRY.
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    sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 10:46 PM
    Response to Reply #57
    59. 35 years ago
    I'm actually beginning to think the Democratic Party is stuck there.

    You bet a new reality has been created, brainwashing caused by Reaganism. I don't know what your solution is, but the same old rhetoric from 35 years ago isn't going to cut it.
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    Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 11:01 PM
    Response to Reply #59
    60. No. We started a revolution. The right-wing has been fighting ever since
    The "Democratic Party" has been way TOO gracious and giving and compromising.

    There is no "Democratic Party", now.

    I agree with you,...brainwashing,...I would say UNLEASHED by "Reaganism".

    My only solution: FIGHT!!! FIGHT!!!

    FIGHT AS AN "AMERICAN, FIRST"!!!!

    AND NEVER GIVE UP,...EVER!!!


    That would be the only solution I can offer.
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    sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 11:26 PM
    Response to Reply #60
    61. A different perspective
    I don't remember where I read it, but it was by a guy who grew up in New Hampshire. He talked about his father or grandfather and FDR, how they truly believed FDR was a communist. (They truly did, btw) Going back before that, there was Teapot Dome, Republicans caught in an oil/bribery scandal. And of course, Hoover's depression. So, if you want to understand today, you have to think back.

    When FDR got elected, that was the beginning of a Democratic Party dominance. Partly because of the Depression, partly because of the war, and partly because a Democrat brought the country out of the mess created by Republicans. They fought back at first, McCarthyism and all. But eventually, Republicans mellowed, think Ford. They had no choice.

    But then Reagan came on the scene and the pendulum swung back. What we have today, is NOT Republicans gone wild, rather the true face of the Republican Party. If you think back to FDR and the Republicans who truly thought he was a communist.

    So I think we do have to remember this is an on-going struggle. The way we have won this in the past is to leap forward. You don't give up your principles, you just take those principles and create a new vision. And you figure out how to fight the garbage coming from the opposition, which is what the Republicans did in the 70's.

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    sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 08:29 PM
    Response to Reply #36
    47. Liberal Republicans
    I like that very much, THAT is the way to frame.
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    Heartland Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 08:57 PM
    Response to Reply #47
    49. The republican party can be split
    If we can get ours out our navels and start consistently framing our rhetoric.

    The Liberal wing of the republican party can be driven from the party by the extremist they created to win at any cost. So moderate republicans become Liberal Republicans, The Log Cabins become Liberal Republicans---

    Faith based Initiatives become Liberal Republican social programs etc.


    Democrats become realists.
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    sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 09:25 PM
    Response to Reply #49
    53. It could work
    The environment, choice, civil unions, gay adoption, contraceptive education, stem cells, renewable energy, lots of Liberal Republican issues.
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    Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 09:57 PM
    Response to Reply #53
    54. Yeah,...you are inventing and creating,...keep going. n/t
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    WHAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 09:22 PM
    Response to Reply #36
    52. confusing sentimentality with empathy?...
    This has bothered me and I think your explanation helps clarify the ambivalence I feel when these terms are interchanged.

    Thanx for the explanation...

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    Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 08:02 PM
    Response to Original message
    45. I'd love to see Howard Dean as head of DNC & Lakoff doing the messaging
    That combined w/ Dean's know how of Internet fundraising and we can start getting ready to blow away the Repukes in 2006 and 2008...

    :kick:
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    caligirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 08:24 PM
    Response to Original message
    46. Excerpt from the Don't Think of an Elephant! book i got is an email

    Sorry for the length, I don't think I have a link. This was in my yahoo mailbox. Nice letter.


    Kerry SoCal Grassroots leader Michael Webber recently recommended that
    everyone read this book: "Don't think of an Elephant." Here is an
    article from the author:
    http://www.winwithlanguage.com/

    How to Respond to Conservatives
    by George Lakoff
    An excerpt from the book Don't Think of an Elephant!: Know Your Values
    and Frame the Debate.

    The following is a letter I received while writing this chapter. It
    arrived several days after I had appeared on a TV show, NOW with Bill
    Moyers.

    I listened to Dr. Lakoff last Friday night on NOW with great
    interest. I love the use of words and have been consistently puzzled
    at how the far right has co-opted so many definitions.

    So I tried an experiment I wanted to tell you about. I took
    several examples from the interview; particularly trial vs. public
    protection lawyer and gay marriage and used those examples all week on
    AOL's political chat room. Every time someone would scream about
    Edwards's being a trial lawyer, I'd respond with public
    protection lawyer and how they are the last defense against negligent
    corporations and professional, and that the opposite of a public
    protection lawyer is a corporate lawyer who typically makes
    $400-500/per hr., and we pay that in higher prices for good and services.

    Every time someone started screaming about "gay marriage" I'd ask
    if they want the federal government to tell them who they could marry.
    I'd go on to explain when challenged that once government has crossed
    the huge barrier into telling one group of people who they could not
    marry, it is only a small step to telling other groups, and a smaller
    yet step to telling people who they had to marry.

    I also asked for definitions. Every time someone would holler
    "dirty liberal," I'd request their definition of "liberal."

    The last was my own hot button. Every time someone would scream
    "abortion," "baby-killer," etc., I'd suggest that if they are
    anti-abortion, then by all means, they should not have one.

    I've got to tell you, the results were startling to me. I had some
    other people (completely unknown to me) join me and take up the same
    tacks. By last night, the chat room was civil. An amazing (to me)
    number of posters turned off their capitalization and we were actually
    having conversations.

    I'm going to keep this up, but I really wanted you to know that I
    heard Dr. Lakoff, appreciate his work, and am trying to put it into
    practice. And it's really really fun.

    Thanks, Penney Kolb

    This book is written for people like Penney Kolb. Progressives are
    constantly put in positions where they are expected to respond to
    conservative arguments. It may be over Thanksgiving dinner, around the
    water cooler, or in front of an audience. But because conservatives
    have commandeered so much of the language, progressives are often put
    on the defensive with little or nothing to say in response.

    The earlier chapters are meant to explain who conservatives are, what
    they stand for, what kind of morality they see themselves as having,
    and how their family values shape their politics. They are also meant
    to make explicit what is usually felt but not articulated —
    progressive family values and how they carry over into progressive
    politics. And finally there is an introduction to framing — what
    mistakes to avoid and how to reframe, with some chapters providing
    examples of how framing works.

    But sooner or later, you are in Penney's position. What do you do?
    Penney's instincts are impeccable, and provide us with guidelines.

    * Progressive values are the best of traditional American values.
    Stand up for your values with dignity and strength. You are a true
    patriot because of your values.
    * Remember that right-wing ideologues have convinced half of the
    country that the strict father family model, which is bad enough for
    raising children, should govern our national morality and politics.
    This is the model that the best in American values has defeated over
    and over again in the course of our history—from the emancipation of
    the slaves to women's suffrage, Social Security and Medicare, civil
    rights and voting rights acts, and Brown v. the Board of Education and
    Roe v. Wade. Each time we have unified our country more behind our
    finest traditional values.
    * Remember that everybody has both strict and nurturant models,
    either actively or passively, perhaps active in different parts of
    their lives. Your job is to activate for politics the nurturant,
    progressive values already there (perhaps only passively) in your
    interlocutors.
    * Show respect to the conservatives you are responding to. No one
    will listen to you if you don't accord them respect. Listen to them.
    You may disagree strongly with everything that is being said, but you
    should know what is being said. Be sincere. Avoid cheap shots. What if
    they don't show you respect? Two wrongs don't make a right. Turn the
    other cheek and show respect anyway. That takes character and dignity.
    Show character and dignity.
    * Avoid a shouting match. Remember that the radical right requires
    a culture war, and shouting is the discourse form of that culture war.
    Civil discourse is the discourse form of nurturant morality. You win a
    victory when the discourse turns civil. They win when they get you to
    shout.
    * What if you have moral outrage? You should have moral outrage.
    But you can display it with controlled passion. If you lose control,
    they win.
    * Distinguish between ordinary conservatives and nasty ideologues.
    Most conservatives are personally nice people, and you want to bring
    out their niceness and their sense of neighborliness and hospitality.
    * Be calm. Calmness is a sign that you know what you are talking
    about.
    * Be good-humored. A good-natured sense of humor shows you are
    comfortable with yourself.
    * Hold your ground. Always be on the offense. Never go on defense.
    Never whine or complain. Never act like a victim. Never plead. Avoid
    the language of weakness, for example, rising intonations on
    statements. Your voice should be steady. Your body and voice should
    show optimism. You should convey passionate conviction without losing
    control.
    * Conservatives have parodied liberals as weak, angry (hence not
    in control of their emotions), weak-minded, softhearted, unpatriotic,
    uninformed, and elitist. Don't give them any opportunities to
    stereotype you in any of these ways. Expect these stereotypes, and
    deal with them when they come up.
    * By the way you conduct yourself, show strength, calmness, and
    control; an ability to reason; a sense of realism; love of country; a
    command of the basic facts; and a sense of being an equal, not a
    superior. At the very least you want your audience to think of you
    with respect, as someone they may disagree with but who they have to
    take seriously. In many situations this is the best you can hope for.
    You have to recognize those situations and realize that a draw with
    dignity is a victory in the game of being taken seriously.
    * Many conversations are ongoing. In an ongoing conversation, your
    job is to establish a position of respect and dignity, and then keep it.
    * Don't expect to convert staunch conservatives.
    * You can make considerable progress with biconceptuals, those who
    use both models but in different parts of their life. They are your
    best audience. Your job is to capture territory of the mind. With
    biconceptuals your goal is to find out, if you can by probing, just
    which parts of their life they are nurturant about. For example, ask
    who they care about the most, what responsibilities they feel they
    have to those they care about, and how they carry out those
    responsibilities. This should activate their nurturant models as much
    as possible. Then, while the nurturant model is active for them, try
    linking it to politics. For example, if they are nurturant at home but
    strict in business, talk about the home and family and how they relate
    to political issues. Example: Real family values mean that your
    parents, as they age, don't have to sell their home or mortgage their
    future to pay for health care or the medications they need.
    * Avoid the usual mistakes. Remember, don't just negate the other
    person's claims; reframe. The facts unframed will not set you free.
    You cannot win just by stating the true facts and showing that they
    contradict your opponent's claims. Frames trump facts. His frames will
    stay and the facts will bounce off. Always reframe.
    * If you remember nothing else about framing, remember this: Once
    your frame is accepted into the discourse, everything you say is just
    common sense.* Why? Because that's what common sense is: reasoning
    within a commonplace, accepted frame.
    * Never answer a question framed from your opponent's point of
    view. Always reframe the question to fit your values and your frames.
    This may make you uncomfortable, since normal discourse styles require
    you to directly answer questions posed. That is a trap. Practice
    changing frames.
    * Be sincere. Use frames you really believe in, based on values
    you really hold.
    * A useful thing to do is to use rhetorical questions: *Wouldn't
    it be better if...? Such a question should be chosen to presuppose
    your frame. Example:* Wouldn't it be better if we had a president who
    went to war with a plan to secure the peace?
    * Stay away from set-ups. Fox News shows and other rabidly
    conservative shows try to put you in an impossible situation, where a
    conservative host sets the frame and insists on it, where you don't
    control the floor, can't present your case, and are not accorded
    enough respect to be taken seriously. If the game is fixed, don't play.
    * Tell a story. Find stories where your frame is built into the
    story. Build up a stock of effective stories.
    * Always start with values, preferably values all Americans share
    like security, prosperity, opportunity, freedom, and so on. Pick the
    values most relevant to the frame you want to shift to. Try to win the
    argument at the values level. Pick a frame where your position
    exemplifies a value everyone holds — like fairness. Example: Suppose
    someone argues against a form of universal health care. If people
    don't have health care, he argues, it's their own fault. They're not
    working hard enough or not managing their money properly. We shouldn't
    have to pay for their lack of initiative or their financial
    mismanagement. Frame shift: Most of the forty million people who can't
    afford health care work full-time at essential jobs that cannot pay
    enough to get them health care. Yet these working people support the
    lifestyles of the top three-quarters of our population. Some forty
    million people have to do those hard jobs — or you don't have your
    lifestyle. America promises a decent standard of living in return for
    hard work. These workers have earned their health care by doing
    essential jobs to support the economy. There is money in the economy
    to pay them. Tax credits are the easiest mechanism. Their health care
    would be covered by having the top 2 percent pay the same taxes they
    used to pay. It's only fair that the wealthy pay for their own
    lifestyles, and that people who provide those lifestyles get paid
    fairly for it.
    * Be prepared. You should be able to recognize the basic frames
    that conservatives use, and you should prepare frames to shift to. The
    Rockridge Institute Web site will post examples from time to time.
    Example: Your opponent says, We should get rid of taxes. People know
    how to spend their money better than the government. Reframe: "The
    government has made very wise investments with taxpayer money. Our
    interstate highway system, for example. You couldn't build a highway
    with your tax refund. The government built them. Or the Internet, paid
    for by taxpayer investment. You could not make your own Internet. Most
    of our scientific advances have been made through funding from the
    National Science Foundation and the National Institute of Health —
    great government investments of taxpayer money. No matter how wisely
    you spent your own money, you'd never get those scientific and medical
    breakthroughs. And how far would you get hiring your own army with
    your tax refund?
    * Use wedge issues, cases where your opponent will violate some
    belief he holds no matter what he says. Example: Suppose he brings up
    abortion. Raise the issue of military rape treatment. Women soldiers
    who are raped (by our own soldiers, in Iraq, or on military bases) and
    who subsequently get pregnant presently cannot end their pregnancies
    in a military hospital, because abortions are not permitted there. A
    Military Rape Treatment Act would allow our raped women soldiers to be
    treated in military hospitals to end their rapeinduced pregnancies.
    The wedge: If he agrees, he sanctions abortion, in
    government-supported facilities no less, where doctors would have to
    be trained and facilities provided for terminating pregnancies. If he
    disagrees, he dishonors our women soldiers who are putting their lives
    on the line for him. To the women it is like being raped twice — once
    by a criminal soldier and once by a self-righteous conservative.
    * An opponent may be disingenuous if his real goal isn't what he
    says his goal is. Politely point out the real goal, then reframe.
    Example: Suppose he starts touting smaller government. Point out that
    conservatives don't really want smaller government. They don't want to
    eliminate the military, or the FBI, or the Treasury and Commerce
    Departments, or the nine-tenths of the courts that support corporate
    law. It is big government that they like. What they really want to do
    away with is social programs — programs that invest in people, to help
    people to help themselves. Such a position contradicts the values the
    country was founded on — the idea of a community where people pull
    together to help each other. From John Winthrop on, that is what our
    nation has stood for.
    * Your opponent may use language that means the opposite of what
    he says, called Orwellian language. Realize that he is weak on this
    issue. Use language that accurately describes what he's talking about
    to frame the discussion your way. Example: Suppose he cites the
    "Healthy Forests Initiative" as a balanced approach to the
    environment. Point out that it should be called "No Tree Left Behind"
    because it permits and promotes clear-cutting, which is destructive to
    forests and other living things in the forest habitat. Use the name to
    point out that the public likes forests, doesn't want them clear-cut,
    and that the use of the phony name shows weakness on the issue. Most
    people want to preserve the grandeur of America, not destroy it.
    * Remember once more that our goal is to unite our country behind
    our values, the best of traditional American values. Right-wing
    ideologues need to divide our country via a nasty cultural civil war.
    They need discord and shouting and name-calling and put-downs. We win
    with civil discourse and respectful cooperative conversation. Why?
    Because it is an instance of the nurturant model at the level of
    communication, and our job is to evoke and maintain the nurturant model.

    Those are a lot of guidelines. But there are only four really
    important ones:

    * Show respect
    * Respond by reframing
    * Think and talk at the level of values
    * Say what you believe

    Reprinted with permission from Chelsea Green, publishers of "Don't
    Think of an Elephant!: Know Your Values and Frame the Debate".

    http://www.rockridgeinstitute.org/research/lakoff/howtorespond
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    Heartland Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 08:44 PM
    Response to Original message
    48. Values are not the issue
    Principles are the issue. The nature of something is determined by the instrument you chose to measure it with.

    When we assign a value to something we put it in a box. If we investigate something through principled thinking we can determine it's nature, then assign what value that is to us (individually or collectively.)

    "just me" stated above that "Liberal" is mangled and maimed so leave it behind. An cannot be used to frame a debate. There is merit to this because a lot of energy will used to defend the word rather than expand the thought process.

    So get attention focused on the nature of the progressive or liberal view of the universe---maybe to kick around what to use.

    Humanism--progressive

    My favorite is

    Progressive Realists (to long for a quick sale).

    Realists offers a great contrast to the lies we are fed daily.


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    Gyre Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 09:05 PM
    Response to Original message
    50. Fascinating read.
    Buzzflash has the book and the DVD for a contribution. http://www.buzzflash.com/premiums/04/11/pre04069.html.

    It's a worthy cause and a GREAT package. :)

    Gyre
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    txdude10 Donating Member (74 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 09:08 PM
    Response to Original message
    51. No amount of framing will suffice...
    Unless it is accompanied by a progressive media infrastructure to deliver the message. AAR, Pacific Radio,and Free Speech TV are a start, but we need our own FOX.
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    mcg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 10:10 PM
    Response to Reply #51
    56. True, they've got the microphone, we need our own.
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    barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 11:58 PM
    Response to Original message
    62. I hope he also talks about "know your audience"
    I will get this book
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    struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-07-04 12:39 AM
    Response to Original message
    63. kick
    :kick:
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