NY Bird lovers want Pall Mall's Nest restored (P.Zahn's husband = culprit)

The abrupt removal of the nest belonging to Pale Male, a famous red-tailed hawk who lived on a tony Manhattan apartment building, had bird lovers up in arms on Thursday and demanding his home be restored.

Pale Male, once the topic of a documentary, is said to have been evicted for defecating on his doorstep and dropping the gnarled remains of pigeons outside the building entrance.

Supporters rallied for a second day on Thursday outside the apartment building overlooking Central Park, saying he gives a rare glimpse of wildlife to hardened city dwellers.

http://olympics.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=domesticNews&storyID=7045202

What idiots tose people were for removing the nest of a New York landmark!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's what is wrong with them. Not all the tenants in the building were against the hawk.

His nest was a bit "intrusive", but how many buildings have a red tailed hawk? They should have felt honored.

its not like they have to soil themselves. why don't they chop all the messy trees in central park and put up clean plastic ones for criminently...down with pz

Someone may take you up on it. After all, those trees do drop their leaves in the winter. It would be so much tidier to have plastic trees.

I think it is sad if one cannot live where there are hawks. Here in the woods, we're used to animal droppings and remains of prey outside the doorstep.

"Since his eviction, the bird has been seen making efforts to rebuild his nest. With the wind whipping up Fifth Avenue, he had made no noticeable progress."

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20041209/us_nm/life_hawk_dc_2

they also removed the spikes that the nest was built into. spikes are actually used to keep pigeons from landing.

apparently pale male used the spikes to his advantage.

they need to put the spikes back.

maybe everyone should lob an egg at the nice, upscale 5th avenue building when they walk past. that would be a lot harder to clean up.

go there and toss one right now!

No one complains about pigeon shit.

I hope that building becomes Pigeon Central.

She ws very upset about the removal of the nest. Where does the article say anything about Paula Zahn's husband?????

He was just trying to live his life and provide for his family!! :mad:
He wasn't hurting anybody!! :cry: :hug:

responsible for the decision.

that their apartment is on the 2nd floor facing the park. A bit of trivia for any who might be interested.

She is an animal lover and activist, plus a vegetarian.

After all, we already have a predatory bird-brain in the office.

And PM is a native born American, not so?

Dubya isn't. :)

but if a bird pooped on my doorstep, I wouldn't gaze lovingly at it and exclaim "Thank god for the wonderment of nature!" I'd shoo the fucking thing out post haste.

I don't care if it's Woody Woodpecker, Beloved Celebrity Bird...I live in the City so that I don't have to put up with animals pooping on my doorstep. There are enough nuisances in the City to deal with without playing Wild Kingdom.

the pampered residents of that building would be expected to clean up after the bird themselves.

You'd think they'd all be able to pool a few extra bucks a week to get one of the maintenance men to clean up after the bird in a timely manner.

I live in a condo and I'm far from "pampered". I work hard and I serve on my building's board to ensure that our area is clean and lives up to the standard the residents and/or owners expect. I do expect a certain level of living and it doesn't include birdshit on my doorstep. I'm not opposing the bird...I'd be very happy if it lives free in an environment that's hospitable and warm. I just don't think the City is it.

Believe you me, you would much rather have a Red-Tail Hawk leaving an occasional headless pigeon around than you would with millions of pigeons leaving their whitewash all over your building. Cleaning up after a hawk is a very minimal process. Cleaning up after pigeons costs municipalities tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars a year.

Many hawks live in cities. Skyscrapers are good habitats for them, because they resemble cliffs. And the Pigeon also originated in a land of rocky cliffs. You WILL have pigeons. Either you tolerate some hawks (Red-Tails, Peregrines, Kestrels) in the city environment, or you spend more money on Pigeon removal. More hawks means a cheaper cost of clean-up in the end.

Do a little research, you'll be shocked at what you learn. I don't know where you live, but if it's in a big city, the chances are extremely large that you have Kestrels living nearby that you never even noticed quietly doing their job.

.

I'd bet they could afford a awning to keep the bird poop away from all the hot house flowers living there.

"these humans have cluttered up my beautiful habitat with concrete and brick...I will poop on them post haste"...

;-)

You know, the ones that don't have romantic documentaries made about them?

My mother used to make that when I was a kid. Sounds gross but its quite delicious. Pidgeon has a sweet, dark, tender meat.

:hi:

Only you call it "squab" because saying you like to eat flying rat is a little more than most people can bear.

nt

Every bird should have the right to defecate where they wish. It's a perfectly normal function! :)

They were here long before you. You're the invader not them.

I expect you'll be moving out of the house/apartment/condo/building you currently inhabit?

No, but I'm sure not going to complain if a bird poops in my yard, either.

I keep my yard as friendly a habitat as I possibly can create for birds and other animals.

aren't you?

laundry. (In over 30 years of hanging laundry outside, it's only happened once.) It's no problem to wash it off, and the trade-off is that I get doves and finches and woodpeckers and quail and thrushes and hummingbirds in my "environment."

Now that the desert around me is being bulldozed clean and flat so ten gazillion little boxes made of tickytacky can be built, there aren't as many hawks. But I still see one now and then, and I love them.

I watched the Pale Male documentary on tv not too long ago, and cried and cheered for the bird and for all those people who watched him and fell in love with the little bit of wild nature they were afforded.

May the bird of paradise fly up PZ's husband's nose.


Tansy Gold, who once had a piece of spare-ribs snatched off her grill by a hawk and didn't mind a bit

They would swoop right down in front of my wife while she was throwing out corn and take our baby guinea fowl. Finally they cleaned us out of all the baby poultry and were trying to get the adults but they couldn't lift them. We had a lot of guineas with no feathers on their backs from the hawks.

My buddy Ric had a hawk come down and slam into his back trying to take his pet pigeon off of his shoulder. As the hawk was recovering on the ground he looked for the pigeon Johnathan(named after Johathan Livingston Seagull) and he was getting ass flying into the barn for cover.

Despite their carnivorous nature they are really cool birds. Very beautiful up close.

You've got a higher tolerance level for the birds and you've obviously made a conscious decision that you're comfortable with the trade-off of living closer to nature and its results.

Let these fine specimens live near you and not in an urban setting that is completely bad for them.

See reply #39.

An urban setting is ideal for several raptor species. Part of the very successful plan to save the Peregrine Falcon involved placing these valuable birds in city skyscrapers where folks could keep an eye on them. Did you know at one time they were almost extinct and that some wealthy Arabs would pay $50,000 for one Peregrine smuggled out of the country? By hacking the birds where they could be watched, the Peregrine Fund helped to ensure their safety. Now they are quite common.

Pigeon is good food not just for people but for birds of prey also. But when you have too many pigeons you can have disease such as ornithosis ("parrot fever") which is a pneumonia that can be spread to humans. A few hawks around to keep the pigeons scattered is very healthy.

For them AND for us.

Sometimes there really isn't two sides to every story.

From their POV, we're nothing more than toilet targets...

http://www.toilettimetargets.com/

sometimes you are the pigeon and sometimes you are the statue. :)

"May the bird of paradise fly up PZ's husband's nose!"

That's funny! LMAO

I think the hawk flew up his nose because in a rather large article in today's NY Daily News, they claim Pale Male will be allowed to return to the building that he and his galpal, Lola, were kicked out of. Or...OFF of. I mean after all, they had lived there for about ten years and had several broods of babies. You know they mate for life...soemthing that touches my heart everytime. (blush)

It seems that Zahn's husband, a real estate developer, has claimed that threats against their seven year old son made the husband more accepting of the bird's residence rights. He claims that people ran up to his little boy and screamed at him to let the bird come back. Now...how much of THAT do you think is true? New York is a crazy place, but I have never heard of adults attacking young children in this fashion over something the child is clearly not responsible for.
And how much do you bet that ordinary people do not get within 50 feet of that little boy?

I think that Zahn probably got a lot of nasty letters etc because in the letters to the editors column, people did write in saying they wouldn't forget or forgive her for her husband's meanness.You know, Job, money and a certain amount of celebrity and prestige are at stake here.

I never watch her show anyway.

I have to step around goose poop. But the beauty of the Canada Geese make up for the inconvenience. IMO. :evilgrin:

I'm just saying. No one has to step around hawk poop. Not even at the National Bird of Prey area breeding grounds in Idaho.

Well then obviously, I should not be allowed to procreate because I'm intolerable of animal feces at the entryway to my home.

You let me know what your threshold for having children is and I'll see if I can pass it.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/110/2/S1/432

<snip>
Subjects with farm residence in childhood were compared with those without a history of farm residence by univariate and logistic regression with adjustment for potential confounders, including pet exposure in childhood, number of siblings, and parental history of allergy

. . .

Conclusions. The authors conclude that environmental factors encountered in childhood may have a lifelong effect on the development of allergy. The effect has been previously noted in children, but this study indicates that a reduction of allergic sensitization persists into adulthood. However, studies of children have not consistently noted a reduction of asthma in those living on farms, as indeed was not seen in these adults. The reason for the protective effect of farm residence is not clear, but several potential alternatives are not supported by the data. The effect remains even after controlling for pet exposure in childhood, number of siblings, and presence of parental allergy

<end snip>

It's long been known that contact with animals decreases blood pressure in hospital patients under stress, especially the elderly and children.

IN MY PERSONAL OPINION, our increasing American alienation from and antagonism toward nature is not good for our health, either physical or mental. Not just a pothos on the window sill or a bowl of geraniums on the balcony. We need real nature as much as it needs us.


Tansy Gold, who doesn't want any gifts this year except a new puppy

raccoon densities in some developed parts of the State
(e.g. Long Island) may exceed 100 per square mile.

Animals actually in need of assistance may be cared for
by licensed wildlife rehabilitators. The DEC regional office
can refer you to these
individuals.

http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/dfwmr/wildlife/wildgame/cooninny.htm

I'll bet there were red-tailed hawks "in Manhatten" long before there was any sort of city.

Geez, you are pretty selfish and narrow-minded.

And yeah, I think a building that faces Central Park is probably full of rich people who don't have to clean up after themselves.
Something tells me it isn't low-income housing.
:eyes:

Gee, that's just so tragic. If birds shat on the steps of my building, I know I'd be traumitized for years!

Have you considered therapy? Whatever it takes or costs for you to overcome the trauma of bird poop in your squeaky clean city, I'm sure it won't be too much!! :eyes:

one time i had a big party in my attic where there was tons of bird poop and we didn't realize it was bird poop until well into the party. for some reason, every time we came upon bird poop we'd say, "shit howdy."

then we read One Fish Two Fish Red Fish Blue Fish and acted out all the parts. some times you just have to go with the flow.

As a fellow NYC resident, I liked your "squeaky clean" observation.
People go berserk if a bird poops on their precious sidewalk, oblivious to the MOUNTAINS of trash put out on the sidewalk three times a week.
Our millions of tons of trash - OK. Bird poop? Kill 'em all!

PS for upthread guy. - re cleaning...I work as a gardener in Midtown. I laugh when I see morons blasting away at pigeon poop, whining that it's hard to clean.
Solution: Wet sidewalk, wait ten minutes, use nozzle. Disappears like a budget surplus under a Republican administration.

I find it amusing, his hysteria over birdshit. Heaven forbid he should live on a FARM.....AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

poop doesn't really bother me anymore.... ;)

I don't know what's in it, but boy does it work. For bird poop too. :)

I live in NY and we don't see shit for animals here besides pigeons, rats and the occasional squirrel. I would've loved that fucker to have a nest in my building!

"I live in the city to get out of the ecosystem."

This is why we have a fkkked up planet.

when people complain that animals are crapping and leaving the remains of their dinner around. Look around-the filthiest animals on this planet are us humans. There is no species dirtier or more capable of destruction.

Squatting Rights

There is no historic preservation district or landmarks commission for hawks' nests. But if there were, the red-tailed hawk's nest at 927 Fifth Avenue, overlooking Central Park at 74th Street, would surely have qualified. Until Tuesday, the nest stood on a 12th-floor cornice with a sublime aerial view of the urban forest in our midst. Since 1993, 23 young hawks have been raised there, sired by a bird called Pale Male. Thousands and thousands of bird-watchers over the years have followed the lives of the hawks in that nest. But this is not an homage to bird-watching - it's an homage to birds.

On Tuesday, workers took down the nest and, apparently, the metal anti-pigeon spikes that had helped hold it in place. So far, no one from 927 Fifth Avenue has spoken up to defend the co-op board's decision to remove the nest. Perhaps residents were annoyed that the hawks didn't do a better job of cleaning up after themselves by using a pooper-scooper or putting their pigeon bones in the trash, the way a human would. Perhaps they simply wearied of the stirring sight of a red-tailed hawk coming down out of the sky to settle on its nest.

It's always tempting to think that a city like New York has utterly effaced the natural ground on which it was built. Most of the creatures that lived on Manhattan Island several centuries ago would stand no chance of doing so now - not in these new canyons of steel and glass. But the presence of a nesting pair of red-tailed hawks, sequestered on the edge of an apartment building, feels like a memory from a past this city has long since forgotten.

more...

Squatting Rights

It was her husband who is head of the condo association

Pale Male's first mate died from eating a poisoned pigeon (after their young had fledged). I think one or two subsequent mates have died, also, but he just soldiers on.

This is shameful! Just one more instance of our disconnect from the world of nature. :-(

I don't know the difference between hawks and falcons as far as hunting.

There were 3 babies and they took a long time to fledge because they were pretty high up, and once they took off it was do or die. Two of the birds finally left the nest successfully. The last little guy just couldn't get the courage - kept practicing flapping his wings - this went on for days and days. Finally, one day he was swept off the ledge by a gust of wind. He made the best of it and sort of crash landed into the branches of a tree. Did ok after that.

There are basically three classifications of birds lumped under the term "hawk." Falcons (peregrines, kestrels, merlins, etc.) usually hunt birds, taking them in the air. Falcons like to get above their prey and "stoop" (dive) from above. Accipiters (Cooper's hawks, Sharp-shinned hawks, goshawks)are also bird eaters, but are constructed to chase prey through wooded areas. Buteos (red-tails, Swainson's, etc.) usually take prey on the ground--mice, voles and other mammals up to around squirrel size. Pale Male and his family were obviously eating pigeons, which isn't unheard of in buteos. What would be really unusual, though, is if he were hunting them in the air rather than snatching them off the ground.

Okasha

At least not in the news coverage which has transpired since the destruction of the nest... nor from the documentary done previously. My guess would be that he attacks them on ledges, rooftops and possibly sidewalks (depending on the foot traffic there).

building. The nest was on the other side so I couldn't see it from my office.

However, I would see them swooping through the air canyons between the tall buildings and every once in a while they would attack a pigeon (from above) and there would be this absolute explosion of feathers!

Quite interesting.

Usually they were just soaring around, looking for food, and being beautiful.

Some people are just too "dainty" to live on their own. Geeeez

What beautiful birds. What a rare treat for City Dwellers. I can't believe some neurotic "celebrities" got away with destroying the nest.

Unbelievable.

Pidgeons on the other hand, eh :shrug: LOL

If I were the attorney in this case, I would be looking hard at the Migratory Bird Treaty. It covers all hawks, including those who do not migrate, and I believe it is a violation of federal law to interfere with a nesting hawk.

Pigeons are not an endangered species, and any natural controls that can be had are of great value. When the hawk is eliminated from the city, then the city will end up spending a lot of money eliminating the pigeons in other ways. In London they have a trainer with an imported (from the U.S.) Harris Hawk to patrol Trafalgar Square for pigeons. Cheaper to let the volunteers do it while we still have some wildlife left.

That is, it is okay to destroy the nest if there are no eggs and the birds are out of season.

While Red Tails are far from a threatened species, it seems unfair to cheat New Yorkers of the pleasure of seeing them.

because it was amended to OK the destruction of nests in April 2003.
Wonder if the billionaires at 927 Fifth made a few phone calls to their employees at Fish and Wildlife?

what an enviro-mental whacko! :eyes:

What about the PETA bashers?

For goodness sake, the animals on this planet can be so meddlesome. Would that someone would do something about it. Ah, I'm late to Wall Street.

Sure the problems caused by this bird may cause inconvenience for some, but the rats and pigeons (rats with wings) are far worse.

Damn, I can't think of anything I'd like more than to have than a redtail hawk hanging out on my building!

Here in SF we have urban peregrines downtown and yes, they leave poop and pigeon feathers around but no one here is complaining or trying to evict them. (There is one intersection on Market Street that is known for its feather showers.) If someone did try to rid the area of them, I suspect there would be quite the stink from the community, and rightly so.

Living in an urban area and seeing redtails, blue herons, ravens and the other wild birds that hang out in my neighborhood is a total joy. We had a red shouldered hawk move in a few months ago -- the biggest hawk I have ever seen here -- and I can't get enough of watching him perch on the telephone pole across the street. If he chose to live on my house, I'd be honored. Poop away!

http://www.nypost.com/commentary/21273.htm


Excerpt:

A BIRD lover, who will go nameless to protect the wealthy, told me of a weird encounter with his neighbor, CNN newsblonde and committed fowl-foe Paula Zahn.

"My friend was telling her, 'You're so lucky to live in the same building where those hawks live,' " the bird fancier said. Her reaction was not what he expected.

"She said, 'Hawks? I don't know about hawks,' " the man said. "I was aware there was a bird problem here." And she walked off.

and i LOVE birds of prey, especially red tail hawks -- but i know they can be hard to live with in an urban situation.

we used to have an asthmatic pigeon that lived over our kitchen window. every 10 minutes it was "HUUUUHHH-uhhhh," UUUUUHHHHHHhhh --- huuuuuhhhhh." you could hear it all thru the house. i'm not sure what was more annoying, the trucks shaking the house at 5 am or the asthmatic pigeons all day long. after a couple of years we left this house and what i remember isn't the trucks, it's the asthmatic pigeon.

oh how i would have loved to have a red tail hawk come and put us out of our misery.

Randy male pigeons do that.

And pigeons mate year round.

I was thinking it was an article about those nasty cigarettes.

off your car. I adore them, inconvenience and all. We live with eagles and moose and bears. I love them. I look for them. Wolves and snowy owls. I feel for people that think because of where they live, they are not responsible to provide habitat to wild animals. Too bad. This hawk is a miracle and you should know that but I guess living in concrete dulls the senses or something. That bird can live on my roof anytime.

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Would rip you a new one....

Shooting raptors is VERY illegal.

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having hawks around would help New York City with it's extremely high rat population. You might want to do that because there are 2 rats for every man, woman, and child.

As for the city dwellers who can't stand bird poop, sigh.

Let's see. Concrete and glass. Gas fumes 24/7. People NON-STOP.
Noise - ALL the time. An occasional tree and small patch of grass.
And one offending bird that poops. Yep, I vote for the bird. A small piece of mother nature in the middle of a city. I'd call that a blessing.

I live in what you'd call a very small canyon, really just the low spot between some low hillsides. Just 15 minutes outside city limits. Red Tail hawks everywhere. You can hear them calling out in the canyon. Their call echoes all over the place. Golden eagle. Saw three turkey vultures for the first time in this area a few months ago. What a sight. The wing span. WOW. Watching TV two weeks ago, I caught something out of the corner of my eye. Just outside the window, probably 20 feet from me, a bobcat. Coyotes are everywhere. Saw two walking down the middle of the street at 2am. Guess they couldn't sleep either. Quail - they make the funniest sounds. And pigeons too. Trade all of that for the city? NO way. Give me bird poop anytime. lol.

I was lucky to know a wildlife biologist some years ago. He was working on the project to save the peregrine falcon. And he took me to two of the aeries he had to monitor. One was off the edge of a cliff. We had to walk up this slope that ended up at the cliff edge. We were about a mile from the nest when either momma or poppa peregrine saw us and decided to let us know that we were not welcome. The peregrine is the fastest bird on earth. Can dive bomb at 200MPH. And he or she did just that. We literally hit the dirt. Scared the daylights out of us. Most amazing thing I've ever seen in nature. I'll never forget that sight.

Oh, I have bird poop IN my house. African Grey Parrot poop. :)

Though I don't keep a bird inside anymore...it was ultimately too depressing.

Look, I think it's great that people in NYC like the red-tail. But a red-tail should have a better diet than pigeons, and a red-tail deserves a better environment than bus fumes and skyscrapers. (Yes, I've been to NYC, I've seen Central Park, etc.)

Relocate him to a place where he can be free and create a family of red tails that bear his fine buff colors and can wheel in an open sky.

. . . at http://www.nycaudubon.org/home/

And in the NYC Metro area, see the rebroadcast of PBS's "Pale Male" (http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/palemale/) on WNET New York Channel 13 on Tuesday, Dec. 14, at 8pm; and Sunday, Dec. 19, at 8pm.

By both me and Mr. Sleepyhead. This afternoon I plan to write letters to Paula Zahn and CNN as well. Not that they will even be read, but maybe I can add to the volume somewhat.

I posted this the other day in the Editorials and Other Articles board and thought maybe it appropo to add it here.

Paula Zahn's hubby "evicted" the hawks...

(my post:)
and I just sent a note notifying CNN and Ms. Zahn the following:

"This is just to let you know I will not be watching Paula's show anymore. Even though I realize it was her husband who "evicted" the birds, it's just too cold-blooded, hard-hearted and cruel a thing do. There's too much heartless mentality in this world at present, and this is inexcusable.
I cannot have any respect for her now, only total disgust and repulsion. It's actions like this that really show what a person is "made of."
Fair or not, guilt by association is a real thing. So, as far as I'm concerned, short of an very loud announcement that she tried - strenuously - to stop this, I will change the channel when she's on."

Apparently - thank Goodness! - the birds have found a new home, (Suite Revenge ) So, that's good this story didn't have a totally tragic ending.
I'm not a radical bird person, but this was just plain cruel behavior and I really think she should have to accept some consequences. Agreed?

If you choose to do likewise to notify CNN of boycotting her, please compose your own message rather than a cut-paste of mine - not that mine is all that articulate anyway, but duplicate messages completely lose their effect.

From Today's New York Times:



Government officials, environmental advocates and a representative of a luxury co-op building have agreed to meet tomorrow to discuss new lodgings for Manhattan's most famous homeless couple: two red-tailed hawks, Pale Male and Lola, whose eight-foot nest was removed and destroyed on Tuesday afternoon.

Daily protests in front of the building, a public outcry from across the country, and concern from some of the building's own residents prompted the chairman of the building's co-op board, Richard Cohen, on Friday to call the New York City Audubon Society, a group that has helped stoke much of the public reaction.

more here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/12/nyregion/12hawk.html
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I enjoyed a surprise visit over the week-end from a friend who resides in non-Manhattan New York. She had been on the road for most of the week and did not know about the Pale Male crisis until I mentioned in on Friday. She was furious.

During her brief visit, we made a couple forays into the wilds of our area of the desert west of Phoenix. We saw a few lizards and woodpeckers and one roadrunner, but nothing much else.

Until this morning.

We were on our way to Sky Harbor Airport so she could catch her 10:00 flight back to the east coast. About a mile from my house, we saw the flap of wings as a bird left the cover of desert scrub vegetation to our right. It rose quickly despite the slow beat of its broad wings, and we could soon see its silvery underside, breast and wings glistening white against a cloudless morning sky. It flew alongside us and maybe five feet above eye-level for a quarter mile, then dipped and wheeled and caught a thermal.

Three miles further down the road, we spotted another, smaller and darker, but the profile was clear.

We entered the freeway, and just a few hundred yards later, another hawk swooped gracefully in front of us, high enough to be safely out of the way of 18-wheelers, but low enough to give us a close-up.

I figure they must have been waiting to hear the radio news and find out if Pale Male was going to be reinstated as guardian angel, ereagle, er, red tail of Central Park.