Elections have gays in Bible Belt seeing red

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/texassouthwest/stories/122004dntexokgays.33d91.html



TULSA, Okla. – Far from the coastal strongholds of the same-sex marriage movement, gays in the red states of the Bible Belt are struggling to maintain confidence and optimism in the aftermath of an election that many viewed as a stinging personal rebuff. In Oklahoma, the 76 percent support for a constitutional ban on gay marriage has prompted some gays to leave the state or consider leaving.

The author of Oklahoma's gay-marriage ban, Republican state Sen. James Williamson of Tulsa, insists hate was not a factor, but he shares the view of many in this churchgoing state that homosexuality is a sinful lifestyle choice.

"As a Christian, I don't like that behavior," Mr. Williamson said. "If they want to live their life quietly, in the privacy of their homes, that's freedom in America. But when you want to force the rest of us to accept a new definition of marriage, we're not going to stand for that


Except for one small town, no Oklahoma municipality has joined the hundreds of cities and towns nationwide that have expanded anti-discrimination laws to cover sexual orientation. "We'll never go there," Mr. Williamson said. "If a Christian couple here in Oklahoma doesn't want to rent property to openly in-your-face homosexuals, they should have a right to do that.

life is too short to force those creatures to open their minds -- and living ''in the closet'' is dead.
come where you are welcomed and help deprive those red states of tax dollars.

Members of the GLBT community and those that are closely aligned with the community should take their money and talents and leave the State.

It is sad, but money does talk. Let Oklahoma become like my home - Alabama. We have begun serious talk of leaving this terrible place for many reasons, but particularly for the recent talk of banning any book in schools that "promotes the homosexual lifestyle". The false X-tians in Oklahoma sound very much like the false X-tians in Alabama. They shouldn't receive a dime from our progressive families.

If I were gay and living in a red state, I would take my skills and money and leave, and try to convince as many of my fellow gays as possible to do the same.

This is what worked in the civil rights movement in the South. Blacks began boycotting the economic establishments of their towns and cities, and dealt a huge blow to the economies of those towns and cities. I'm not just talking about the bus strikes, but the boycotting of downtown stores and restaurants as well. It's widely believed that that had a tremendous effect on the ending of discriminatory laws and practices in those areas.

Excuse my stereotype, but a greater proportion of performers are homosexual, or friendly to the homosexual cause.

So, performers (thespians, musicians, etc) should refuse to play in place which do not have minimal protections for homosexuals.

No more touring Broadway shows, symphony, ballet, etc.

I also thought every homosexual (and sympathizer) should call in sick on 01/20/05 (especially those in Washington DC). Ruin those Inaugural Balls, etc.

I decided a couple of years ago to not accept jobs in fundy churches. If I was asked to perform for some rethuglican function, like the inauguration, I would also refuse, though most of Dumbyass' party music comes from the military or brown-shirt entertainers.

obviously, that wasn't the only thing that worked there, but I think the whole "we won't play Sun City" boycott thing had a definite PR effect.

Start a general boycott of liberal-minded performers of states which pass overtly homophobic initiatives. I think it's a fine idea. It allows people to do as they see fit.

Facing the implacable reality of entrenched bigotry, a persecuted minority sees the need to vote with their feet.

I, too, live in Alabama. I have lived here for 17 years. I thought I had seen everything until Amendment 2 was defeated.

But I would encourage you to stay. If progressive-minded people leave, there will never be any hope of change.

< on edit >
Whenever I despair of things politically I turn to Alabama's official state motto for inspiration: We Dare Defend Our Rights.

No one's running me off.

Leaving your home would just cede everything to the RW nuts. Pretty soon they'd feel emboldened enough to go after Jews, working women, Hispanics, African-Americans, you name it, anybody who doesn't swallow the KoolAid whole without question. Staying aboard to work for change is the only way to reverse the tide.

If we keep leaving, those damn fundies will just continue to inbreeed and teach their kids to hate people. They will continue to spread throughout the country. And then what...we leave for Canada? I don't think so! Let them go on THEIR own damn island!

-------------------------------
Jesus W. Bush has arrived! http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues/454055

Florida/Virginia in the East or Nevada/New Mexico in the West.

which is sorely lacking in the red states.

It's not ideal - but we welcome all here!

of their homes" because that's what freedom in America is?

Sen. Williamson, you, sir, are an asshat.

in their homes. Why do they need to shove it in our faces and define marriage, life and morality for the rest of us?

"Christians Should Live Quietly in their homes." We'd all be better off if they kept their religious views in private. I don't understand why this self righteous clown thinks he has the right to suppress others' civil liberties and yet thinks the same should not happen to him. Who the hell is this moran to decide who can marry whom? This crap is getting out of hand. What ever happened to "Mind your own business" and "Live and Let Live"?

"As a Christian, I don't like that behavior," Mr. Williamson said. "If they want to live their life quietly, in the privacy of their homes, that's freedom in America. But when you want to force the rest of us to accept a new definition of marriage, we're not going to stand for that"

BECOMES

"As a Liberal, I don't like that behavior (Chrsitans legislating morality)," Mr. X said. "If they want to live their life quietly, in the privacy of their homes, that's freedom in America. But when you want to force the rest of us to accept a religious definition of marriage, we're not going to stand for that."

OK - now count how many words I changed... (excluding Williamson to X)

On Edit: If he is going to say it that way, he must live that way

"If they want to live their life quietly, in the privacy of their homes, that's freedom in America."

I'm quite confused about the religious right's definition of freedom. Their definition appears to involve them rewriting laws, displaying their beliefs in public squares using federal funds, and teaching their beliefs to children in public schools, while everyone else is "free" to keep their beliefs under a shroud of secrecy.

go for it!!!

How fucking pathetic.

The bible says, specifically, pray to your master in private.

Nothing about gays.
:eyes:

Follow your damn "good book" and keep your praying in the closet!!!

Please!!

never accept thee as thyself"

Or for a modern spin .... "what shall we tell the children??"

Fuck you, Mr. Bigot.

there for gay marriage. Gays and liberals were sucked into a major losing battle. On this the Democratic politicians who support civil unions and NOT gay marriage are right on target and are being quite successful getting THAT policy in place.

Gay marriage isn't even accepted in Canada. They have civil unions up there.

We have those rights because we are Americans.

It was only 30-some years ago when the majority of Americans opposed inter-racial marriage. A few years before that the majority of Americans opposed desegregation of our public facilities. A few years before that the majority of Americans felt it was okay to own another human being.

It makes little difference the ratio of approval for discrimination... we, as Americans, should not tolerate it.

If folks will not respect one anothers' rights then one cannot expect to have those rights. This battle MUST be fought in the court of public opinion otherwise you will win in the courts and then the legislatures and the public will amend their state constitutions and remove those rights from the books after which you'll have to go back and fight for public opinion like you should have done in the first place, and THEN you'll have to get the blasted laws BACK ONTO the books, on top of that.

Several states placed laws on their books banning inter-racial marriage. It ultimately went before the Supreme Court and was struck down for exactly what it was: discrimination. (In 1967, I believe.)

Please repeat as necessary: "Our rights as Americans are not dependent upon approval from others. We have those rights because we are Americans." To hold any other views... to believe any other settlement is 'justified'... is to give a nod to discrimination.

Even if the exercise of those rights may be illicitly infringed upon by overreaching civil power, it does NOT obviate the existence of those rights.

That's against everything the Founders created. Tyranny of the majority is not an American ideal (at least, it's not supposed to be).

It is through religiously sanctioned marriage and the secular entitlements gained thereby that socially organized and civilly established religions have exerted iron-fisted control over government for millennia. It's not just Henry VIII; it goes back to the Pharaohs (and I'm not talking about Sam the Sham) and before.

Organized religion is obsessed with speaking for God, not listening to God, and wielding the power of the State to impose dogma and compliance on people outside of a particular 'faith community.' Humility? Forgiveness? Compassion? All abandoned in favor of secular power. Almost nothing proves the weakness of a faith (and the "faithful") more than its abandonment in favor of repression.

:eyes:

religions for the problems of the world. Fundie Christians/Muslims/Hebrews, Unitarians, Cathloics, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. You blame them all. All of them are tools of the state to you.

You are WRONG.

Many organized religions have been tools of the PEOPLE in organizing a fight AGAINST other concentrations of power.

So AGAIN, I say, you paint with too broad a brush, TahitiNut.

Today, "organization" is virtually synonymous with corporatization - which is the epitome of 'establishment.' A corporate religion seeks and obtains limited (and compartmentalized!) liability, economic entitlements, and aggregation of secular power (often in terms of narrowly individual wealth). I view it as a corruption of faith which, like all corruption, includes both healthy 'tissue' and rotted 'tissue.'

You patronizingly claim "all of them are tools of the state to you." (First of all, I regard such projections and proclamations of what another person thinks to be the height of arrogance and ethical bankruptcy. Please ... try to limit your comments to what you believe and respect my right to state my own perspectives. I regard such pretentious attempts to speak for me as hostile and infused with animosity.) It is entirely arbitrary and meaningless to ascribe either side of an unholy alliance (in pursuit of secular power) as the "tool" of the other. Chicken and egg. The pursuit of power under the guise of 'faith' is inherently corrupt. I regard this as axiomatic and inarguable.

"outside they are like whited sepluchers, but inside they are full of dead mens bones" is my view of heretical christians

The "Old Testament Christians" pay no attention. They prefer the Decalog to the Beatitudes, eyes for eyes rather than alternate cheeks.

(It should be noted that "scribes and Pharisees" were the organized 'religionists' of the day.)

---

It occurs to me that the FOLLOWERS of the Bushoilini Regime (including Falwell, Robertson, and their ilk) would do well to heed Matthew 23 ...

Matthew 23

¹Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: ²“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. ³So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. ⁴They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

⁵“Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; ⁶they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; ⁷they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them ‘Rabbi.’

⁸“But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. ⁹And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. ¹⁰Nor are you to be called ‘teacher,’ for you have one Teacher, the Christ. ¹¹The greatest among you will be your servant. ¹²For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

¹³“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

¹⁵“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

¹⁶“Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.’ ¹⁷You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? ¹⁸You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.’ ¹⁹You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? ²⁰Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. ²¹And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. ²²And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.

²³“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices–mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law – justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. ²⁴You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. (This is a commentary on "trickle down" economics.)

²⁵“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and selfindulgence. ²⁶Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

²⁷“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. ²⁸In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

²⁹“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. ³⁰And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ ³¹So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. ³²Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!

³³“You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? ³⁴Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. ³⁵And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. ³⁶I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

³⁷“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. ³⁸Look, your house is left to you desolate. ³⁹For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

:thumbsup:

Seriously though, the Supreme Court of Canada has stated that discrimination regarding marriage on the basis of Sexual Orientation is a violation of their Charter of Human Rights. The court has directed the Parliament to proceed in passing legislation to "normalize" this situation. What they DID say is that a Minister cannot be forced to perform the cerimony if it conflicts with his/her belief, and that works for me.

Time for the rePUKES to stand up for they claim to believe in: that is, staying out of the people's business.

Oh yeah: Go Canada!

Supreme Court.) I know married Gays. But they have no license, no civil rights. That is what is wrong.

The GMA and all the state measures ban gay marriage, civil unions, and in some cases ordinary contracts between gay people.

> On this the Democratic politicians who support civil unions and NOT
> gay marriage are right on target and are being quite successful
> getting THAT policy in place.

If we encapsulate all of the legal rights of marriage in the term
"civil union" and then declare marriage itself to be outside state
jurisdiction, yes. That would be a reasonable thing to do in the
interest of separation of church and state. That WAS, in fact, the
policy of most Democrats, including Kerry.

Much good it did us. We don't get to frame the debate. They do.
Our side barely even gets heard.

As long as that is the case, it doesn't matter what positions we take.

Government financial aid, old-age pensions, and national healthcare., With those three issues "solved" in the US, the whole "marriage" fight would be less stinging.

My take on the issue is that most gays are upset because their life-partner choice is not "accepted" in the sense that each partner has no LEGAL right to the things that "other" married people have. If those same things were granted to each as INDIVIDUALS, there would be no need for legislation..

Our "government" has taken a patronizing approach to all of these issues, and have set a "limited norm" and pitted everyone against everyone else in competition for these scant "services"..

It's governmental Darwinism.. Need help?? PROVE that you are "worthy"..

Instead of your citizenship itself entitling you to certain perks for being a citizen of your country, you are destined for a lifetime of "proving yourself", in order to be accepted, and your citizenship entitles you to nothing more than a requirement that YOU prove your worth by working and paying taxes. Whe you can no longer support your country, it has no use for you, and sees no obligation to help you..

I could give a fuck about what you call it - if I married a guy, I'd call it a marriage, and anyone who didn't like it would have to learn to live with it.

All I want is the exact same rights that married heterosexuals get - visitation, legal rights, the works. Anything less, fuck off (not directed at you).

My partner and I are preparing to move out of this state. I call it Okla-HELL-ma! This place is like a cultural black hole! Even the "liberal" universities, are ass-backwards! There is an active Nazi skinhead movement here and there is also Elohim City (talk about right-wing nuts!) I can't wait until living here is nothing more than a bad dream!

God, I wish we in the blue states could just form our own country.

You are welcome here.

I had an phone interview there last week and am hoping for a campus interview! Keep those fingers crossed for me! 18 months with no job (thanks Shrub, I didn't need all that disposable income), has been hard. I can't wait to get out of here!

well, so did the rest of it, but that even more so:

"Except for one small town, no Oklahoma municipality has joined the hundreds of cities and towns nationwide that have expanded anti-discrimination laws to cover sexual orientation. "We'll never go there," Mr. Williamson said. "If a Christian couple here in Oklahoma doesn't want to rent property to openly in-your-face homosexuals, they should have a right to do that."

look at it if we change just one word:

"Except for one small town, no Oklahoma municipality has joined the hundreds of cities and towns nationwide that have expanded anti-discrimination laws to cover sexual orientation. "We'll never go there," Mr. Williamson said. "If a Christian couple here in Oklahoma doesn't want to rent property to openly in-your-face blacks, they should have a right to do that."

Well, I'll be damned that sounds exactly like the kind of shit I've heard about from before the civil rights movement.

"Except for one small town, no Oklahoma municipality has joined the hundreds of cities and towns nationwide that have expanded anti-discrimination laws to cover sexual orientation. "We'll never go there," Mr. Williamson said. "If a Christian couple here in Oklahoma doesn't want to rent property to openly in-your-face miscegenists, they should have a right to do that."

Or, changing two words, ...

"Except for one small town, no Oklahoma municipality has joined the hundreds of cities and towns nationwide that have expanded anti-discrimination laws to cover religion. "We'll never go there," Mr. Williamson said. "If a Christian couple here in Oklahoma doesn't want to rent property to openly in-your-face Jews, they should have a right to do that."

how about:

"If a landlord here in Oklahoma doesn't want to rent property to openly in-your-face Christian, they should have a right to do that."

Bwaaaaahahahahahahahaha!

:evilgrin:

:thumbsup: It only works, however, when some significant degree of economic power is distributed. I doubt such equity exists in Soonerreich.

.. what on earth do you think you did to the gays & lesbians in Oklahoma when you introduced that bill?

That's right, you "force(d) the rest of us to accept a new definition of marriage".

many years ago for GLBTs in southern states where, then, they were openly being persecuted even in the courts.
Read hundreds of replies of these people, calling the suggestion (s)of many, better, more diverse oriented, places in the country to live, stupid and ignorant. They wouldn't leave, ever, for any reason! They may, as the court augmented bashings get worse.
Perhaps they will understand how thousands of KKK. other bigots,and religious people never were prosecuted, or even sought, for killings and destruction in many of the southern states!

when they either die of asphyxia or move to a Blue state.

Or a civilized country, for that matter.

If I were gay, and just read that statement about a "Christian couple" not wanting to rent to gays, they should not be forced to, I would want to despair. I do despair, as a matter of fact, and I am not gay, so I cannot imagine how gay people live in these states.

Please, come to NY - we would love to have you here!!

I really don't see any way to bring these two Americas together, at least not under this administration.

these judgemental right-wingnut bible belted psycho-fanatic evangelical "born again"-ers need to take their openly in-your-face bigoted beliefs and shove them where the sun doesn't shine.

I tired of some of these people pushing this "I'm a Christian" down our throats when they're such shitty examples themselves. :puke:

Hypocrisy make me sick.

on the way up to Tulsa...flag and all. Little shack of a place on Highway 75 in Eastern Oklahoma.
As much as everyone thinks badly of Texas sometimes, WE are very, very relieved to get back home/cross the Red River into Texas after a few days in Oklahoma.

If I don't want to rent to bigoted narrow minded a-holes I shouldn't have to either.

These hypocritical pseudo-Christians should live their lives quietly in their homes instead of imposing themselves on the rest of America.

Funny how it's ok to flaunt your christianity until you're blue in the face, but dare you mention anything about your sexual interests, and the sky will burn...
I'd love to see homosexuals being as "in-your-face" as christians are. Just the look on the faces of conservatives everywhere would be priceless.
That's why i think liberals need to start our own religion. sadly, we'd probably have an easier time getting our ideas into Schools, courthouses, tv's, and america in general that way.
We could even have our own commandments...i could think of a few.
:)

Unitarian Universalist....very liberal, accepts EVERYone. They are nationwide/worldwide.

We live in Texas and there's around 5,000 UU's just here in TX. Speaking of Oklahoma, there are even congregations in Oklahoma City...but the Tulsa people felt the youth group was too liberal for them <gee, what a surprise> so last I heard they were not letting their kids go to the weekend sleepover rallies held at different churches..which sucks for their kids because that is the best part of YRUU <the UU youth group>.

Find one near you:
http://www.uua.org/CONG/index.php


http://www.uua.org/aboutuua/principles.html


UU princples:

The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.
The living tradition which we share draws from many sources:

Direct experience of that transcending mystery and wonder, affirmed in all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of the spirit and an openness to the forces which create and uphold life;
Words and deeds of prophetic women and men which challenge us to confront powers and structures of evil with justice, compassion, and the transforming power of love;
Wisdom from the world's religions which inspires us in our ethical and spiritual life;
Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God's love by loving our neighbors as ourselves;
Humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason and the results of science, and warn us against idolatries of the mind and spirit.
Spiritual teachings of earth-centered traditions which celebrate the sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms of nature.

of course, those who receive "face time" on TV are the Fred Phelps wackos who hold signs saying "GOD HATES FAGGOTS".

I was born and raised here, and moved back here. I abhor my home state. I am just.....speechless that I live among such bigoted, ignorant assholes.

As an aside, my husband is a minister who has performed gay "unions" (he could be removed from his ordained position) and he, as a minister, already has the right NOT to perform a marriage ceremony for anyone he finds wanting. If he feels they are not ready, too goofy, etc. My point is, religious organizations already are allowed to discriminate against anyone they want to and it should stay that way. But, civil marriage (court house, cruise ship, justice of the peace out in the middle of nowhere) should be open to anyone with money enough to pay the license and proof of age (or whatever).

The issue is "rights afforded to recognized spouses", not religious discrimination. I don't give a flying f&&* if Joe Blowhard's Church of Jeebus Incarnate doesn't want to perform marriages for gays, but by God, the government should not participate in discrimination against any person, group, etc.

If I were a gay person living in this state, I'd be gone in a heartbeat, without so much as a backward glance. Take your money, your education, your skills and hightail it to the nearest state where you can be you. Forget trying to educate these people. It's banging your head against a brick wall. Your head ends up bloody, and they stay stupid.

...because using out-of-context quotes from a book of myths to deny equal rights isn't hate. No, sir.

:eyes: <- If I rolled them back any further, they'd be staring at the back of my freakin' skull!

we have a gay in the mayors office and majority on city council in Palm Springs. It's a little pricey in Ca but Gays are free here and not as expensive as LA and SF.Rapidly growing gay community refugees from all over.

:eyes:

And those choices are in abundance in every fundamentalist church in the red states.

Jesus never said shit about homosexuals, but he sure said that the rich, liars, and murderers shall never enter Heaven,

so long as they stay in the prayer closet where they belong and don't flaunt their religious zealotry where I am forced to see it. They shouldn't be allowed to proselytize where innocent children might be exposed to it!

behavior. If he wants to spew his bigotry and hate privately, in the privacy of his home, that's freedom in America. But when you want to force the rest of us to accept injustice masquerading as a defense of heterosexual marriage, we're not going to stand for that.

there's a stretch

As a gay resident of Massachusetts, I encourage all GLBT folk to relocate to the coasts, especially Massachusetts, to deprive the Red States of tax income --and human creative and scientific capital.

Screw 'em ! In fact, let them slash their own taxes and social programs, reduce gov't watchdog activities so that corporations can really slave drive 'em.

Let them pray for comfort.

The rest of us should just move forward and try not to spend our dollars in Red States. We really should start a campaign to drain those states.

Life in Massachusetts is quite good, and marriage for gays and lesbians is working well. Some employers are resisting to provide medical insurance coverage for same-sex spouses, but the vast majority do.

...of marriage? It appears to me that the Xtian Fundies are forcing THEIR definition of marriage on gays.

?

They have no right to do that, either.

One word: HYPOCRITES!